Eternal HEMA General: We died Edition

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Aren't the rapiers in Meyer just sideswords?

Has anyone here got experience with blackfencer sharp simulators?
All the footage I've seen with them looks noticeably different to smooth edges. The way they bind is intriguing.
https://youtu.be/PC_g750Ziss

>>2449292
From what I saw and heard they are okay. Roland Warcheza said they are good but are slower to exit the bind than real sharps but it's normal because of the size of their crenelations.

>spes foam shields
Are they strong enough for use with synthetics? They would make a nice cheap rotella if so since the DMZ synthetics ones aren't available in Europe and everything else is way more expensive.

>>2449704
>the DMZ synthetics ones aren't available in Europe
Doesn't PHA ship them overseas?

>>2449804
Their synthetic rotella is 65$ plus 72$ for shipping.

I received the Polish Saber book from Marsden, looking pretty good.

>>2449153
Yes, the two words aren't exactly dissimilar for the time period anyway. "True rapier" treatises mostly start in the 1600's or just a bit before for that matter.

http://hroarr.com/meyerozzo-the-influences-of-the-bolognese-method-in-german-rappier/

>https://subcaelo.net/ensis/dynamics-computer/
Remember a few threads ago? It's now available. These graphs on feder specs soon?

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How much material is there on shields, and how many types? Is it mostly limited to the rotella?

>>2453785
Buckler and Targe are also well documented.

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>>2454757
Marozzo has this bigass thing, any specifics on it? What exactly is it, and what is written about it?

>>2449704
The Destroyer Modz shields are basically synthetic sleds that they attach an arm band to.

It might be cheaper to buy the sled yourself from some place like Amazon and do the mountings yourself.

mhsleds.com/
www.amazon.com/Snow-Sled-Saucer-Heavy-Black/dp/B00637PUOU/

>>2449825
That's ridiculous. If you're going to get a rotella, just get a steel one. There's apparently a Windlass one that's rather good for around 100 USD.

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>>2455174
Apparently it's called an "imbracciatura", which as far as I can tell, refers to both that specific kind of shield and also a kind of strapping system.

Here's some Italian HEMA guys using them.

http://www.uisp.it/emiliaromagna/pagina/campionato-nazionale-di-scherma-antica

Here's a translated passage from

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?44686-Marozzo-s-shields&p=490717#post490717

“Fighting person to person with the sword and imbracciatura requires these principles that you
settle into the coda lunga e alta with the left foot forward pushing your sword and imbracciatura together but the point of said imbracciatura you will hold extended strongly to the right of your enemy. Here you will be patiente in waiting on your enemy who attacks first with a stoccata , a ponta, a mandritto , or a roverso and in all those attacks you will pass your right leg to his left side at the same time. You will then give a thrust to his face or his flank and the left leg follows the right in its place. Having done this for your defense you will circle two passes against his imbracciatura quickly. You will then settle into a well formed coda lunga estretta."

Right then, figured I'd ask here since I figure some of you guys might be knowledgeable (and the martial arts general is down too I guess). Since I want to start weapon arts eventually, what do guys think the best starting point would be given either realism or skill? Going straight into a HEMA type of place, or a place with those crazy stickfighting motherfuckers who bruise the hell out of each other, or something like fencing with a cool high skill level because of old dueling competitiveness and being in the Olympics. Though I guess its not like all this stuff doesn't have that kind of history.

>>2469369
Could you clarify what you're looking for? Are you doing it for self-defense, for sport, for fun, etc.?

>(and the martial arts general is down too I guess
The hell? Did something happen in WWE to make wrassle shitposting explode?

The generals have consistently hit bump limit, but the last HEMA general and the recent MAG thread both did early.

>>2469532
Bit of all of the above to be honest. I'd guess self defence might be the best way to put it, since I'd like to learn ways that would be practical, since lately I've been getting a bit autistic about things I think people should know or be trained in. Not sure about the threads since I don't follow wrassling and don't really leave the martial arts threads now that theres no place for the actual alternatice sports that had slow threads.

>>2469532
>The generals have consistently hit bump limit, but the last HEMA general and the recent MAG thread both did early.
Must be white trash mating season or something then.

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>>2468035
>>2455174
looks like a gaul shield.

>>2455174
>>2471238
Its an imbracciatura like that other anon said, its fixed to the arm with two straps

>page 9 already

>>2473041
So I guess it is Wrestlemania then.

>>2468035
I didn't know this was a thing, desu, just rotella and buckler. Any good youtube videos out there of them in use?

Where can I find a good blunt zweihander for fencing? No plastic bullshit, please.

>>2474112
Just like for polearms, you won't, okay, thanks, bye.

>>2468035
>that top link

What are the pics of them with shields and multiple spears? Are they throwing at each other or something? And how old is the link? That protective equipment is uh...

>>2474112
Danllei Armories, Pavel Moc, Peter Regenyei, all of them make Feders for Montante Zweihänder sparring.

>>2474263
>Are they throwing at each other or something?
>he doesn't know how to use two partisans and a rotella
stay pleb

>>2474263
It says 2012 under the photos
Anyway even today if you go to a tournament in italy you will find people with that kind of gear.. its not the norm anymore but there are a lot of people with less than ideal equipment. It's not that the tournaments don't have rules either, they just don't follow them.

>>2478154
Interestingly enough, it works. Italo's love fencing and their events are always great fun.
>bonus points for funny people
>bonus points for great food

>>2478154
>>2478832
This is pretty much exactly how everything works in Italy.

>>2481007
Can confirm

>>2478154
>>2481007
If you want to HEMA travel, what are good places/clubs in Italy to visit?

>>2483312
Talking about HEMA travel, anyone going to Dijon?

>>2483312
Depends on where you go, there's that hema map that gets linked a lot that tells you where clubs are, but a lot of smaller schools probably aren't listed. I'm in the center of Italy and there are a lot of clubs, but some are bad

>>2449292
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNfaKJE7fwo
Pretty good.

I know the main draw for people is longsword/rapier because that's what most of the tangible manuals are about, but I was wondering if there's been any work done yet on revisiting Danish/Saxon techniques, or even just the old Norse stuff. I'm seeing synthetic axes beginning to appear from time to time that are very obviously meant to be Viking replicas, and thus it has tripped my interest. I would absolutely love learning how to fight with a short sword or hand ax and a round shield like that.

I know manuals won't exist, but does anyone have any literature at all done on the topic?

>>2488380
Obviously Roland Warzecha, he did and does quite a lot of things on sword and viking shield and this little thing for axe and shield.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUDX8n7WDR0
And this of course, a classic for sword and larger shield exploration, but also a very good video on basic principles in general:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc

>>2490119
Thank you! My HEMA club is contemplating making our own viking gear and having at it. This guy's videos are definitely going to help

>>2469369
Well, everything has its advantages/disadvantages.

HEMA is in general more realistic. But the clubs vary very much in quality. One can be a hardcore trainingplace and the other one full of neckbeards and fat swordmaster wannabees.

Fencing has a better quality control. At least in europe. You train hard and to be FAST (which HEMA doesnt empathise in most places) but you learn a sportified version.

Fencing is a very good basis for HEMA though.

If you want to learn a specific weapon, then you have to go to the place that teaches it. Smallsword and (light) Sabre are mostly teached in fencing. All other weapons like polearms, Rapiers, Longswords... -> a HEMA Club.

>>2488380
Strictly speaking, Danish/Saxon/"Viking" is not HEMA because there are no sources. So besides some guys who do it as a hobby like >>2490119 there isn't much work put into it.

this viking stuff is bullshit. I don't get why people are so into it

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Don't die.

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>>2449140
another question for Hema freinds. Many people in the Japanese lineages talk about their style having a distinct personality which practitioners begin to adopt through training. One has a philosophy of making a berserker like first attack, another approaches combat like a wolverine: stalking, looking for and feigning weakness, another seeks to make an impenetrable defense and wait for the enemy to give even the slightest opening or mistake.

Do the old European manuals address such things? and do people training on them seek to adopt the same mindset?

>>2495588
I'm not sure if we are yet ready to clearly characterize the different schools in hema according to their personality. We have no living lineages, some of the lineages have few surviving documentations and the masters often didn't say much about philosophy. While you can easily train the moves and techniques in a book, it takes a long time to figure out in what spirit they where written and how to understand them and make a complete system out of it.


I did not study Italian fencing, but took part in a research workshop, which compared Italian and German 16th century schools. They have different characters but it is hard to describe them. When you look at the techniques they are widely similar. My personal experience was that German school favors a more direct approach, few moves, simple footwork, hard hits. The footwork is simpler and less refined, you often use it to close the distance fast, evading is practiced, but not on the Italian level.
Italian in my experience was more on outsmarting and outmaneuvering your opponent before you beat him, like moving yourself in superior position by refined footwork, bind, feint, elegant thrust.

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>I am the sword, deadly against all weapons. Neither spear, nor poleaxe, nor dagger can prevail against me. I can be used at long range or close range, or I can be held in the half sword grip and move to the Narrow Game. I can be used to take away the opponent’s sword, or move to grapple. My skill lies in breaking and binding. I am also skilled in covering and striking, with which I seek always to finish the fight. I will crush anyone who opposes me. I am of royal blood. I dispense justice, advance the cause of good and destroy evil. To those who learn my crossings I will grant great fame and renown in the art of armed fighting.
If Fiore was alive today, we would take him for a chuuni.

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>>2495588
Animal symbolism as featured prominently in several Eastern Martial Arts is represented in some HEMA documents, with the example of Fiore below.

The animals in Medieval European mythology have some level of mysticism not unlike that of eastern arts which separates them as distinct from their real life counterparts.

The Lynx has the ability to see through walls and into the future.

The European tiger (big dog like thing) is faster than the speed of light (literally)

The lion is just a courageous now extinct European lion.

The elephant is so strong that it can carry small castles/towers on it's back due to not having any knees.

So Fiore says be wise like the Lynx, fast like the Tiger, courageous like the Lion and strong/surefooted like the Elephant.

>>2497928
>>2498185
And they wonder why the Italian system isn't more popular...

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>giant fucking snails
How are you supposed to fight them?

>>2499765
I have eyes like a hawk, so you do not deceive me
I have a heart like a lion, so I strive forward
I have feet like a deer, so I can spring to and fro
-Paulus Kal (MS KK5126)

Germans are fucked up too, dude

>>2495588
>>2496556
>>2498185
>>2501328

thanks

I found one of the quotes it help illustrate my point. The animal allegories here are simply modern attempts to explain things to outsiders.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?26510-Q-amp-A-Araki-ryu-Buko-ryu&s=ff989ad53e7360881ba08269e3dc3698&p=302207#post302207

>Anyway, that said (and that applies to the rest of you!!!!), the ryu in question is more properly called Toda-ha Buko-ryu. It centers around the use of the naginata and most specifically the Kagitsuki Naginata (with a cross-piece at the base of the blade). Opposing weapons are spear, sword, kusarigama, and there is auxiliary practice with bo, nagamaki and kusarigama in their own right. The ryu specializes in ma-ai - one always tries to be at the perfect cutting range while having one's enemy at a poor cutting range with their weapon. It is very aggressive - there are no defensive moves whatsoever - in some ways, more aggressive than Araki-ryu. One associate of mine says Araki-ryu is like a wolverine (low to the ground, capable of true nasty aggressive, smelly, devious - does whatever it takes to win) whereas Buko-ryu has a Doberman quality (very upright, almost noble postures, arrogant, slashing attacks, very big movements to cut through man, weapon and armor if necessary - altho' of course one goes for the weak spots in armor).

Is the Superior Fencing jacket as good as the usual AP?

>>2501216
Salt

>>2501673
going to need a lot of salt for a giant fucking snail with a lance

>>2501673
A lance made of salt

>>2501683
>>2501686
You would just need that Fiore's poleaxe but instead of throwing poison stuff it throws salt! Plus it's supposed to be an anti-armor weapon at the core, perfect against snails!

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>>2501216

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TFW Swordsquatch competition slots are filled, but you get put onto a waiting list.

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Before I go stuffing anything into my scabbard I figured I'd check: what would you guys recommend doing to stop a sword from rattling in its scabbard?

>>2505267
And yeah, I know this is a stupid question that I can just google but I figured I'd check just to be safe.

>>2505267
What kind of scabbard is it? Mine is all leather and hasn't given me any problems. I'd say since a scabbard has to be done for the sword, if the sword rattles in it something went wrong. If its made of wood, you could put a strip of leather on the inside rim, and it could resolve the problem or make it less annoying. Apart from that you should completely remake it or take apart the one you have to try and make it smaller, but I would advise against it

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I wonder about that twisted grip shown on the right, isn't it making your wrist weaker structure wise?

>>2505683
I don't think so. You just take the normal grip, then rotate your arm so your thumb's on the outside; the wrist doesn't move at all. My impression is that it's fairly situational, at least in sword and buckler where I've seen it come up, but I don't know the details.

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Live.

>>2502996
Is that a monk fighting all the bullshit margin-art he drew in his manuscript?

>>2505683
Isn't it how sixth ward is done in I:33? It's just a hip-level prima, you don't stay there, it's just a launching point, you twist your wrist so that it naturally ends in a typical terce when the thrust is given. That's how I see it out of the blue anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o4YTi-0iXw

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So from what I gathered all the postas in Fiore system work when backweighted or forwardweighted but strangely some postas are only depicted as backweighted one way like fenestra or zenchiaro mezana. Am I missing something?

>>2509768
I'm not a dirty Italian, but it might just be that he didn't feel the need to show them both ways if he'd already established that it could be either.

>>2510557
He doesn't say explicitly that they work both ways, it's implied throughout the system and you can clearly do them both ways if you just pick up a stick.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmDu-MNxk4
Thoughts?

>>2511482
Weird in a not so bad way

>>2511482
This looks unusual, and a bit ugly, but I find the concept very interesting. I like where they're headed, even if the contrasting colors make it look a bit too much like some kind of cosplay. I wonder how much it will cost

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>>2511482

>>2449140
If anyone here is interested in Japanese swordsmanship there is a thread on /his/

>>>/his/2637510

>>2449153
>>2450985
Meyer's rappier isn't even a sidesword really, since the guard doesn't allow for the finger-over-the-quillon grip which I think is pretty crucial for both sidesword and rapier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoT0yTwHhlI
Anton Kohutovič of those dramatic demonstration videos fame in a tournament.

Lots of really smooth moves, but the second half also has some really awful doubles.

>>2511482
I like some of the ideas, looks hellishly expensive though.
I hope they make a budget version that lacks some of the crazier features like the active cooling.
Oh, and the plastron is fucking overkill.

>>2514008
honestly I think it looks really 'sport-fency', no abziehen, a few suicidal attacks and extremely linear, not a fan of that fight

>>2514177
It's a mix between air force gear and an EOD suit.

>>2515190
MGS sneaking suit.

>>2513880
Not sure I agree with you there.

There are rapier treatise/s that show rapiers with simple crossguards.

The defining feature of a sidesword isn't a finger-ring.

>>2516031
>The defining feature of a sidesword isn't a finger-ring.
What is it, then? I generally think of that as being a pretty core part of it.

How good are synthetic Montante?
I'm thinking about getting one but steel isn't cheap and I don't know if I really like it afterwards...

>>2517618
Blade dimensions and weight distribution

>>2521940
Tried the blackfencer ones at a tournament, they're good if a bit pricey, but if you can't get anything cheaper definitely buy it, you could always re-sell it if you don't like it

>>2474112
For solo drills and slowly going through techniques? Danelli, Regenyei, or Moc.

For any form of sparring?
Use a fucking synthetic, and even then go easy.

>>2511482
Rebel scum in my HEMA?
TIE is life

>>2522273
Anyone ever made a stormtrooper mod for his fencing mask?

Complete newfag here, there's no HEMA club near where I'm at but I'll be moving within a year or so, so I'm looking to order in some equipment and get started with practice
Found a few UK sites that sell equipment, wondering if you guys can recommend which ones to look at and which ones to avoid
Cheers

>>2523185
hard to practice without a club mate.

>>2502996

Is that a medieval version of Berserk?

Did that guy finish his series?

>>2522180
Thanks, I'm trying the blackfencer Montante for now and also ordered two sickles just because it looks fun.

>>2521940
I have one, it's a good training tool. I also ordered some of their rapiers and sharp simulators for testing purposes, just waiting for them to be ready.

>>2522006
What's the difference in mass distribution to, say, an arming sword?

>>2526076
>arming sword?
Talk Oakeshott? Because arming sword is a generic term.

>>2526141
>arming sword is a generic term
So is sidesword. Or are you defining that as just types XVIIId and XIX?

>>2524073
Talking about Montante and sickles, what are good resources for them?
There's a sickle manual in Paulus Hector Mair, but are there others?`

Is Marozzo the best way for Montante? Which other masters exist? Afaik there are no german manuals for Zweihänders, right?

>>2528606
>There's a sickle manual in Paulus Hector Mair, but are there others?`
Hopefully not, it is a novelty weapon and not really important for HEMA. It does however draw lots of attention from the spergers.

>>2528616
My club has a couple of plastic sickles lying around that we never use, the one time I tried it out it was an awful experience. Turns out a tool for farming sucks in practical combat.

>>2528616
>not really important for HEMA
Why though? I think it looks like an interesting weapon to use.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FlqkMnl3lg

>>2528606
>for Montante
Alfieri if you want a later stuff, check the iberian people as well, Figuereydo (iirc) comes to mind. It's mostly going to be solo rules from them though.

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What kind of guards are there for a longsword (physical guards, not guard positions) other than your standard cruciform guard or siderings?

I ordered a feder blade in an attempt to save some money and was wondering if there was anything else out there.

>>2528616
>"HEMA is only German longsword" post of the week
Woo

>>2529430
>HEMA is only German longsword
I really love german longsword but damn that would suck.
Doing (or at least trying) stuff like saber, rapier, s&b and the 'exotic' things like sickle, scythe or poleaxe is what makes HEMA so god damn interesting! (and money and time consuming...)

>>2529555
>sickle, scythe or poleaxe
One of these things is not like the others.

>>2529971
THE SICKLE!
It's one-handed

My club is starting to gain more interest recently, but I don't really have the gear to kit newbies out.
Should I go with the cheaper rawlings/knighshop longswords, or invest in those pentti ones that Purpleheart produces?

I've heard the rawlings are shit for binding, but never tried them myself.

>>2530797
Rawlings aren't great, but they're better than sticks. The Pentti's are good, but they're not a ton better in the bind; then again, I'm not sure how much of a concern that is for beginners.

>>2528745
Usally tools don't suck. Users suck.

Tried out one of those LP gorgets, it's superior to others for vertical movement but it's slightly worse if you wish to turn or tilt your head.

>>2523185
Leon paul. Hemashop for SPES and red dragon stuff. Don't be in a rush to kit up though, if it's over a year til you need it better kit will have been released. I.E., not Red Dragon.
You're going have to learn to love ordering from Europe, basically. With Danelli on hiatus/ascension, all the decent swordmakers are over there and there's a better range of kit on offer.

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>>2529218
Later longswords developed semi-complex hilts, much like sideswords and rapiers. Swiss springs to mind although I'm sure there's German and Italian types as well.
Practically, I'm not sure how suited they are to HEMA. Gloves are bulky enough, and longswords could still crush them or thrust through.

>>2530797
If you're in the US it's worth it to go Pentti over rawlings as they're not much more expensive. In my experience the rawlings are less durable and the extreme flex makes them behave weird at full speed. I guess if your club doesn't spar and only drills the downsides of the rawlings aren't such a big deal though.