Eternal HEMA General (plain vanilla longsword edition)

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>>1416141

>>1416141
Old Thread: >>1366936

which weapon is the most basic for HEMA?

>>1416148
Sticks?

>>1416151
sticks are entry level in HEMA?

this is interesting

>>1416148
What do you mean

>>1416153
Well the definition of basic can vary wildly. Training with sticks/staves of different lengths can be a good introduction to rigid melee weapons. Also it's cheap.

But most clubs do longsword. Maybe you use a wood/synthetic one first then go for steel.

>>1416156
I see, thanks for advice

>>1416155
I mean like entry level, but I get that training must be done with stuff like trainers or sticks now, thanks

>>1416160
You have 0 contact for starters, so we use cheap wooden wasters (aka sticks) to train the noobs the basics like stances and such.
German School based curriculums usually teach the longsword first, others may vary.

>>1416160
Beginners will very often be using synthetic longsword in the beginner groups. Basically training footwork, basic cuts and some very gentle drills in pairs without hitting each other. So no protection needed.

>>1416073
>29:56
>40 minutes

Also if you think you're hot shit for doing only 1vs1 fights then I really pity you. As Easton (and the other guy in the video) said, melee-battles are part of hema and should be trained more and "larp" (more specificly padded fighting) allows this safely and at a relativly affordable price.

And if you honestly have some kind of superiority complex towards boffer or SCA fighting then you should honestly get outside more as most (normie) people don't really differentiate between them. In the end, you're just swinging around a non-sharp stick at other people.

>>1416317
Not that guy, but i've done some "competitive" viking age fighting and the rulesets really mess things up.

I'd rather see a fully HEMA geared "battle". Though most HEMA groups lack enough spears and shields for that.

>>1416344
>>1416317

Most larpfight have stupid overprotective rules against contact and stabbing that break any senses of a

hmm, yes... Now that I think of it, 2c2 to 5c5 with differents weapon could be really fun. Nobody do that ?

Also, with the brexit, anything of value on HEMA that could be bought in the UK ? protection, sword, anything ?

>>1416368
Danelli swords.

We used to do some group fights now and then, but it was with rapiers only, so it had little to do with anything actually historical.

I feel shields and spears are the big things for group fighting, they gain a lot of value there (not that they weren't good to begin with).

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>>1416344
>>1416368
It really depends on the rules and equipment.

I personally have done all my melee fighting with extra-padded boffers (style Finland, pic related) that allow full contact, thrusts and head-strikes allowed with no other protection. Some brusises happen but not much more.

Also for some reason we never had the segregation that the rest of the world seems to have. Hema, Larp, Hmb and Sca all can grab a boffer and have a grand old time in massive campaigns without shitting on everyone elses hobbies. Even though the weapons seem really bulky, you can actually balance them really well so that hema-techniqe is actually legit.

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I painted my HEMA helmet, and now I want to remove the paint. How do?

>>1416396
Buy new helmet.

>>1416396
Depends on the kind of paint.

Sandpaper probably works on anything though.

>>1416141
Just out of curiosity, why is HMB discouraged here? I just met another 4channer at my local HMB meetup, and he said they mostly post in /cgl/ and /tg/ larp threads because you don't consider it a sport.

The one on one counted blow bouts seemed very skill and sporty to me.

>>1416413
Fellow Hmb-fag here

I guess it's mostly due to it not being a historical european martial art, it's more a modern contact sport if you get nitpicky. We used to have Hmb-threads now and then and a couple regular Hmb-posters but when the wrestling-fags came along it became impossible to have those slow threads as they were drowned within hours under wrassling-shit.

However, I do think the segregation between hema and hmb (and sca and even boffering) is ridiculous esspecially with the current state of /asp/.

The Schola Gladiatoria video posted at the end of the last thread really hit the nail on the head: We're all basicly hitting eachother with sticks of varying materials and could really learn a lot from each other.

>>1416413
What did he look like? Where was this?

Did he have a green and purple shield with a white bird and a yellow rooster?

>>1416433
We're all nerds eh?

>>1416458
Virginia. Middle height, built like a barrel with dark hair in a ponytail and sideburns. His wood shield was purple on top, green on bottom and divided by a white diagonal stripe. Know him?

>>1416491
>We're all nerds eh?
Pretty much. I know some hema fags will claim they consider themselves "scholars studying history" and some hmb fags "top athletes" but in the end we're all just nerds enjoing swords and hitting each other.

>>1416491
Holy shit. Italian armor? You just met Gropey. Hits like a fucking truck and is a total bro.

>>1416535
I consider myself as a fencer. Sorry.
And this is the HEMA thread, we can keep ourselves afloat even in this rassling shithole, so there is no need for you folks to sidetrack. Enjoy /cgl/.

>>1416572
Yes, I am aware that /hema/ is mostly self-sustainable. However, do you honestly think that the wrestling-invasion of /asp/ does not concern you?

Also, you can consider yourself anything you want but as long as you're not doing olympic fencing, the mainstream population of the world won't see you as anything else but grownup men playing with swords. By working together with other "sword-sports" you could actually gain some mainstream-media coverage but instead you're just shitting on other sports due to some imaginary superiority complex.

Also also, neither /cgl/ or /tg/ really offer anything for people in hmb or sca. Even with your cancerous attitude, this is the best we got and we'll keep on posting here, most of the time without you even realising you're discussing with boffer-, sca- or hmb-fags.

>>1416603
Look, wrestling is here for quite some time now, and so far all our HEMA generals made it.
We don't need you here, we don't want you here, so please leave and get your own thread on whatever board you like. It is not our problem that no one cares about your odd hobby and no, we are not related just because you every now and then swing a sword like object. Tvm.

>>1416572
You are part of the problem. You are an armed history nerd. Accept it.

>>1416643
Whatever, now fuck off and get your own thread.

>>1416141
>We don't need you here, we don't want you here, so please leave and get your own thread on whatever board you like.

Speak for yourself faggot. Anything related to sword fighting is interesting. No one cares about what you personally consider "real" fencing. Your opinion is useless.

I'd much rather talk about different fighting styles than bicker about which play fighting is superior.

>>1416648
Thats good for you, but then please don't do it in the HEMA thread. We have our own thing going on and sidetracking just because you can't keep your own threads afloat is shit behavior.

>open HMB thread, 3 replies, dead within the day
>open SCA thread, 2 replies, dead within the day
>oh, lets post in the HEMA thread, because we are really relevant

>>1416643
Im a hema scholar who wrote a longsword translation that you probably quote.

And I say that you, me and everyone else in this thread are history nerds swinging feders and wasters. You are not "elite". You are not "better". Your fencing slippers and trackpants are no more professional than anyone's breeches and turnshoes.

Get over it.

>>1416665
>implying I need translations

>>1416669
>implying reading historic texts in their original language isn't nerdy.

Embrace it.

>>1416681
I happen to speak the original language for most longsword manuals as my mother-tongue, some pretty archaic German dialect.
Whats your problem anyways, I still don't get your point? You're a nerd so everyone else has to be one to so you don't feel so bad about yourself? Thats about right?

>>1416368
entirely depends on the country what's the average. US is a shithole in that regard, with ultralight dickswords and all

>>1416387
you know, if you put something at the end of the core that is a little flexible, like a piece of leather or textil+hotglue the tip will endure way more damage and it will be just as safe if not safer.

>>1416141
Besides Regenyei, are there any other recommended entry level Feders? How did those Hungarian munitions grade Feders perform?
>need to buy loaner gear for the club

>>1416690
I hate that people likr you somehow honestly think that HEMA is the one true path, and is some how "better" because you use overpriced motorcross kit, deriding people who use historic kit. None of that cross pollination of orgs is the key to growth, and all systems have their ups and downs.

Tl:dr, you're a tryhard.

>>1416700
They seem to be well received.

Viktor Berbekucz makes cheap feders. The cross is a bit short and soft, but the blade is very sturdy. Also it's wider than most feders, which to me is a plus.

>>1416701
But I don't think that, I just think sidetracking a general is shit.
Now go translate something that I likely gonna quote, you world famous HEMA scholar.

>>1416700
this was the latest review about the Landsknecht Emporium feders

>I am delighted with this sword. It is definitely munitions grade, with a rough, blackened finish, and a bit of historically appropriate hand made asymetry. The balance and handling are fantastic, and after a few weeks of use (teaching 3-4 times a week, some freeplay use) I am convinced of its durability and safety. I am not a metallurgist, and I am not willing to do destructive testing, and we are probably towards the low-impact end in our freeplay, but I would rate this as safe as a red dragon feder. Frankly, I like everything about it better than my red dragon (which I have now sold), although the finish is rougher, which may not be to everyone 's taste. If you make more, my students will buy them. If you keep them in production, I will name them the official feder of Ottawa Swordplay.

Allegedly they will up for sale again in the next few days somewhen

>>1416713
do you honestly think that a little sidetrack here and there will do more harm than good?

>>1416709
I need something really sturdy, because they will see a lot of use and likely also a good deal of abuse. Clubmates of me had good expiriences with the Berbekucz models, but not exactly in the durability department.

>>1416691
Naah, the PVC or PP-pipes we use usually snap a bit above the guard or the padding gets split before any problems arise. Thats a good point tho and we usually construct our spears so that we have 2-2,5m bamboo pole with 0,5-1m of pvc pipe at the end to give it slight flexibility while being somewhat rigid. Too floppy cores make weapons slow to manuver.

Here's some footage from the boffer league in Finland 2012-2013 https://youtu.be/VGsssABrLTo

The year after that Hmb actually arrived which quieted the boffer scene down for a while but it's starting to wake up again when the newness of Hmb is starting to fade.

ayy pals

we need you to settle on a player or two for 4cc who you guys want

>>1416718
Did they break the blades? I haven't seen any noticeable dents on them so far.

Also i think the improved the crosses recently.

And it might be a matter of stiff vs flexible.

>>1416717
Given that SCA managed th shit up entire threads here before, yes, I absolutely believe that.
We had some nice cross posting with the JSA folks in the last threads, and some sports fencing cross posting a couple threads ago, that was nice.
But as soon as people want to discuss their foam "swords" and how to build their character for the next Barony, things get awry.

P.S. Both the Swedes (Baloon thingey) and the Swiss (Sparring-Ball) have developed Full kit steel melee games that are pretty safe and teach something.

>>1416729
Berbekucz is shit in the sense that quality is all over the place, but mostly on the lower end

>>1416714
Ok, I keep them on the short list. Thanks for the reply!

>>1416733
To be fair his prices are also on the lower end. Or they were until Landsknecht Emporium came around.

>>1416732
....SCA doesnt do foam swords or characters. Thats larp. They use wood batons with hard rubber heads, or bated rapiers/side swords.

>>1416729
No, they blade rolled over after heavy blows, like they where L-shaped afterwards. Likely will break there sooner or later, so not fit for safe use afterwards and the blade had to be replaced. Occasional troubles with the cross where also noticed.

>>1416732
No one want's to discuss their larp-characters but if you think padded weapons aren't a part of Hema then you're fucking retarded. Padded weapons allow full-contact sparring with minimal equipment and relativly safetly and neglecting it because "it looks like larp" just shows how immature you actually are.

>>1416725
ahh pvc, alright that explains.
We use fiberglass cores mostly around here, those doesn't snap, but bendy so you need 4-5 in some kind of patter to make be good. Little more work but better performance overall to my taste.

Also there are the calimacil larp swords which are wobly as fuck but on the other hand you can give it to any kind of beginner and you can be rest assured that he won't kill himself or anyone with it. Good enough for teaching the very basics and for a little free play without any kind of safety equipment

>>1416742
Thats great news, you should open an SCA thread and post it there, people really ought to know that!

>>1416742
I thought SCA did have characters. And people would get titles and shit.

>>1416741
I've seen way too many shit tier stuff from Berbekucz so I'm a little biased here. Then again those were mostly for random reenactors not for HEMA use (and they were shit in the sense of authenticity too)

>>1416745
Oh, I'm so sorry that I insulted you foam "sword" I sewar to god and me mum that I'm gonna respect you from now on. Foam must be the pinnacle of HEMA fighting and we all should take an example from the great SCA guys.

since the Asiatic swordsmanship thread is kaput, i figure i should ask here.

ive noticed that in kendo there isn't much in the way of parrying, but rather something like sword grappling. can someone clear things for me or help me understand what the mindset for defense is in kendo?

>>1416748
>you should open an SCA thread and post it there
>>1416758
>>1416758
>>1416758
>>1416758

>>1416317
HEMA should be based on academic study/sources. It's a type of history and we would do well to remember that. I don't want it mixing with make believe.

I feel LARPers could learn things from HEMA. Just as fantasy authors learn things from academic history. But you'll find very few historians take their inspiration from fantasy novels.

>>1416746
Yeah, we had glassfiber cores on swords banned almost 10 yeats ago because someone just decided they were to rigid and could snap and become a saftey hazard. Also all pre-made swords are also banned as they never fullfill the safety standards (12mm of open-cell foam on tips, 30mm closed-cell foam on edges, 15mm elsewhere except handles). Yes, they are really bulky but it's the only way to go full contact while being inclusive to new guys to the sport.

>>1416757
AFAIK, defend with distance, don't parry is more or less the strategy. Also, focus on attack. They do have some techniques for defense but always aiming to counterattack.

The sword grappling (tsuba zeriai IIRC) is an artifact of the rules that usually leads nowhere so people tend to "agree to separate".

Remember that kendo is an odd combination of basic practical kenjutsu for the army, competition, and spiritual development. It's weird as a martial art.

>>1416766
I learned a lot about foam swords today, my ancestors should be pleased.

>>1416768
>to rigid and could snap and become a saftey hazard.
literally never seen a fiberglass rod snap in the 7+ years since we use them, apart from some serious stress test. I mean yeah, you can destroy them if you really want to but never seen it during regular use. And even then, one layer of hockey tape around it can prevent any kind of splinters.

About pre made swords, I like calimacil because it isn't your regular foam but rubber foam. Also I were stabbed in the eye and the dick more times with them than I want to admit and no real injury happened.

That said the best cores are the hybrid carbon-fiberglass ones, but it's hard to get them around here.

>>1416768
>>1416779
Seriously guys, please leave, no one gives a shit about your LARP shit.

>>1416782
call the cops, I don't give a fuck

>>1416757
Kendoka here.

The other poster has it pretty correct. It's mostly about attack. There is blocking, but it's pretty much only used to set yourself up to attack.

The "sword grappling" you describe is partly a relic of the past, and partly to give yourself a feel for how the opponent is moving their shinai. You'll find that the same behaviour is done when kendoka are at distance, just using the tips rather than the whole shinai.

>>1416779
Well I guess one reason for the glassfiber-ban was that one team made a bunch of swords with glassfiber-cores that were lighter, smaller and more rigid and wrecked everyones asses so they just banned them on the spot. But as we have light wrestling also allowed so I can see how a half-swording situation could end up spliting a the other sword and spraying glassfiber-splinter in you opponents eyes.

>>1416782
Agreed. Easton may know a fair bit, but he's still a pop-history youtube personality (as are a fair number of people popular with the HEMA community online). Just because he suggests something nonsense doesn't suddenly make it a viable idea.

>>1416788
I find it highly unlikely. It's my own opinion of course but I never seen it even during armoured fights here

>>1416786
Is this accidental (i.E. happens because of sportization of JSA) or is this intensional like some banzai suicide wish fencing style?

>>1416793
We have that all the time here. Easton is a good guy and knows his share about victorian saber and some other stuff, but because of youtube and because many are to lazy/dumb to read their own sources and get their own conclusions he gets hyped way out of proportion. And then we end up with some SCA fags shitting up the thread with discussions about their favorite diy dildo materials.

>>1416797
Yeah, I do agree it's a shame but those are the current rules over here. From what I gathered they've tried legalizing glasfiber-cores several times but it's always fallen to "more testing needs to be done for safety" and "every single current weapon would become obsolete".

But anyway, I mostly main spears so it doesn't even concern me that much.

>>1416793
If a famous hema-instructor says "this is good for hema-practise" at least it should be allowed to discuss within a hema discussion. We're not forcing you to go and larp, but we as hema-entusiast also like to discuss and fight with other weapons than just sabers and feders.

>>1416757
Even in old styles, there aren't that much direct parrying, it's more about counters (either before or after the opponent's movement) or if needed blade deflection.
I just read a sentence by Risuke Otake (of Katori Shinto ryu) saying that every parry is a missed or a badly timed counter-attack, that says something. In the correct order, to defend yourself he'd want you to: directly counter, deflect back to back (since there's only one edge on the japanese sword) or parry with the edge if it really comes to that.

Of course it depends on the styles, but it's a general rule. Hokushin Itto-ryu, one of the key old styles that lead to the development of kendo has as it's main form of attack a vertical downward cut (kiri-otoshi) that push the opponent's blade to the side so that it's basically an attack and a deflection in the same time, it doesn't matter if the opponent launch another downward cut, if you master this one cut well enough, it should work all the time... so why bother with parry when you can have timing and a perfect enough cut ?

>>1416800
Less sporterization than ritualism.

>>1416809
if by that you mean the weapons on the video you showed will became obsolete then it's a good thing. Those are way too light and gives people bad habits. I have serious amtgard/dagorhir flashbacks just from seeing it.
Everyone holds the swords at the very end, hopping on one feet, dance moves, etc

>>1416810
Agreed. Also, in Kendo you regularly train to knock shinai to the side in order to attack. It really stems from the general Japanese approach to combat. Make the other guy dead before you.

Just look at Iaido if you need an example of this philosophy in action (or Pearl Harbour hey-o).

>>1416809
>but we as hema-entusiast also like to discuss and fight with other weapons than just sabers and feders.
The OP pretty clearly states "NO" and that for good reasons. Just because Easton had a brainfart again does not mean you are welcome here, now please leave and embarrass yourselves somewhere else.

And no, you are not a hema enthusiast, otherwise you'd know better than post such bullshit as quoted.
>implying there are no shinais used for t-shirt sparring
>implying there are no leather dussacks for butt naked sparring
>implying there not more than enough synthetic wasters for light "British" style sparring

>>1416800
You gotta remember than suicidal attack and japan makes a good combo, even in fencing.
I'd say it's pretty intensional and cultural, it's kinda a "the guy who least care about living will live" thing.
You have entire styles about exactly this like Yakumaru Jigen-ryu were the goal is to build people who will recklessly charge to the death, delivering multiple killing strikes to a groupe of enemies, of course they'll die in the process but heh, at least you build a real psychological combat mind with this ! Plus he might scare the others enough to survive !

>>1416826
the OP doesn't states that, just saying

>>1416826
What is this British style sparring you speak of?

>>1416820
>Just look at Iaido if you need an example
>Guys it was totally sen sen-no-sen... It was totally not paranoia, I swear ! He was going to attack me... was he ?

>>1416836
you use a cup of tea instead of a sword

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>>1416748
Great, im just correcting your in accurate info. Stay salty.

>>1416750
No. On the educational side of shit, many, but not all chose a period/culture of interest for the sake of centralizing interests. The titles are just award and club position names, like your local block of zipcodes is a barony, and the local club pres is baron X, who's kit and studies/crafts are focused on 13thC German infantry in the crusades etc. If his name is Bob, he might use a more historic name for educational demos.

That is not thread related, but what IS is their armoured baton combat and historic fencing. Pic related, as they even practice mounted combat.

>>1416766
We're not talking larp, we're talking other groups who practice variations of western martial arts.

>>1416819
Having glassfiber-cores makes them even lighter, and the pommel grip just gives you that slightly longer reach. I do agree that it's not exactly how you'd fight with real swords but I also think that restricting technique "because it looks bad" makes it almost more larpy than just allowing the technique that works best. And in the end it's less about the individual technique how you swing the sword and more about teamplay and weapon combinations.

Also, in many competitions we allow armor that makes the moving a lot less "dancy" and we encourage armor use through extra hit point for the body part it's on. It's a bit larpy yes, but that way we get people to use armor so who cares. It's fun.

>>1416847
Ok? This is a HEMA thread.

From the OP:
>Please keep it kind and on topic. Also no SCA/Reenactment/HMB please.

So I will kindly ask you, go to an SCA thread please. Stop posting about it here.

>>1416838
I genuinely laughed. Wonder if that ever happened to a paranoid samurai?

>>1416433
>could really learn a lot from each other.
I only need to learn from the past masters who wrote treatises.

>>1416849
What I'm saying is that the sword simulators are bad because they doesn't simulate a sword correctly. That's why using it in a non-sword way is effective.
It defeats the purpose if it's used as a stepping stone for HEMA studies.

And I said you need several fiberglass rods, that makes it heavier than a simple PVC pipe.

>>1416858
So if we just talked about "armored hema with sticks" then it's fine? I guess we can try avoiding the the ess-see-a word if it triggers you. Padded weapons however are full hema, esspecially within the context of melee-battles and spesific weapon types such as spears.

Where else would we discuss historical mass battle techniques? ;)

>>1416863
>I genuinely laughed. Wonder if that ever happened to a paranoid samurai?
Finally an effective martial-based joke through internet, I'm pleased hand happy that it did work (had great expectations). Paranoid samurai, doesn't that come in the same package ?
But yeah, I think it happened, maybe not in a super formal setting, but there is too many situations like that in plays, stories, even films for that never to have happened, especially in Japan, were walls are made of paper and paranoia among the warrior caste is off the scales.
Frankly, the "I killed my friend because I thought he was conspiring against me" is a classic trope and most of those have groundings in real stories after all. I should probably find some actual real story to further the joke though...

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>>1416880
>hand happy
Goddamn it I really have keyboard dislexia !
Or poor attention, or no desire for attention at that time...
Funny batto image for the trouble.

>>1416847
>We're not talking larp, we're talking other groups who practice variations of western martial arts.
SCA is no martial art, it is an advanced LARP.
Also this: >>1416858

>>1416875
>It defeats the purpose if it's used as a stepping stone for HEMA studies.
Well, then why the heck are you posting here? It is not that anyone here will go back from steel to foam anytime soon.

>>1416876
You want to talk about mass battle? Read about it from historical sources and make informed interpretation. Back it up with facts. If you can't find any, either research further or give it a rest.

We're not resorting to "oh well can't find a source on that, might as well ask the boffer kids who pretend they're ancient vampires". Nor the SCA folks. That is UNLESS either of those camps can provide sources. Then they're more than encouraged to contribute.

>>1416876
Seriously, can't you trip or something, at least we could hide your bullshit then. None in the community gives a shit about your foam and you destroy a perfectly good thread for your ego only.
As for your question, you can debate here: >>1416758

>>1416872
There are subjects that there are next to no treatises about, such as axe and mace techniques and melee-combat. Sure, if you want to concentrate only on one-on-one unarmored dueling combat then great that's your thing. But there's more to hema than just that.

>>1416875
I get what you're saying, but when it turns into a competition, you can't really tell people how they should fight and how not. You really can't fully simulate a sharp sword in any way but we can simulate the teamwork and strategy. For we then separetly train with blunt swords 1on1 or 2on2 when we want more of the sword feel. If that makes any sense?

>>1416892
Please leave. Another HEMA thread is fucked up by you SCA guys, as so often before. We don't want anything from you, why is that so hard to accept for you?

>>1416892
It's HistoricalEMA. If there are no historical sources (treatises are just one kind, I'm willing to accept any primary source that stands up to scrutiny), then we will not make assumptions about it.

This is what separates HEMA and even the most serious of SCA folks.

>>1416885
What you're saying is like saying
>you can't learn longsword without manuals, it is simply impossible
Not everything has a manual and even if that spesific weapon has, not everyone used it in that spesific way. Who cares about sources if it works in combat.

>>1416890
>>1416894
>>1416895
Hema is more than just your narrow definition of it. We're here to stay, at least until wrasslingfags leave so better get used to it or leave.

>>1416901
>Hema is more than just your narrow definition of it. We're here to stay, at least until wrasslingfags leave so better get used to it or leave.
HEMA is a community of people who do the same thing, and you are not part of it. You''ve been kindly asked to not to come here in the OP and asked secveral times to leave. Instead you choose to fuck up our thread. I rather leave asp for good and abandon this thread, and so will the others. As a result the wrassling fags will win, HEMA will lose, and SCA is still shit and respected by no one.

>>1416892
that's why you need good weapon simulators.

if a feder for example is terribly off balance and too heavy or too light you will learn a lot of bad habits from it and it will be shit for the purpose of HEMA training.

And this is especially true for beginners who don't know shit yet and get bad habits way too easily

>>1416901
>Who cares about sources if it works in combat.

Get out.

I'll say it once more. HISTORICAL. Not made-up. Not well-guessed. Not "creative anachronism". If you cannot back up your methodologies with decent interpretations of historical evidence (including firsthand accounts, manuals, or anything else of the sort) then you can be on your merry way.

And leave the wrestling fans out of this. They don't come in here and shit up the thread about how "WWE is basically ringen, so we belong".

>>1416895
>>1416906
I think we should just put SCA and all other boffer fighting on the bait list, stop replaying and just wait till they get lonely and leave back to /cgl/. In other words, do not feed the trolls. Feel free to report them, maybe it helps.

>>1416906
have you ever heard about suicide? It's something that you might find enjoyable

>>1416909
so, suddenly training beginners with padded weapons doesn't count as HEMA?
Way to be an elitist.

>>1416909
Agreed.

On another topic, has anyone got any information about Darkwood Armories baskethilts? They seem awfully pricey but I'm not sure where else to get a steel for backsword.

>>1416912
Nobody trains beginners with padded weapons, you'd know if you did HEMA.

>>1416909
Sorry, couldn't resist, bait was to good. But lets bump this thread to hell and get a new one first.

>>1416906
You're not the Hema community, you don't get to choose who's part of it. I'm also not discussing SCA, Reenactment or HMB, I'm discussing padded weapons and mass battle as part of Hema, along with alternative combat systems.

And by all means, please leave. We've already seen that many of the hema-friends here are happy discuss other combat systems so we'll get rid of the bad blood and get more diversity at the same time. It's a win-win. It's people like you that give hema such a bad name among other sword-sports.

>>1416913
Danelli is pretty popular over here in Europe: http://www.danelliarmouries.com/index.php/custom-swords/british-basket-hilts
And yes, he is pricey as well, but then theres a lot of work for such a blade and they hold up for years or even decades.

>>1416916
>Nobody trains beginners with padded weapons, you'd know if you did HEMA.
I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you are clinically retarded instead of being a troll

>>1416917
>Alternative combat systems.
>Waah waah I don't need sources!

Not HEMA. Go away. Last reply.

>>1416919
How is he for shipping to NA?

>>1416921
No really, I don't need sources. You can go cry to you instructor about it but not all hema circles around sources.

No need to reply. :)

>>1416924
Dunno, ask him, he is usually quick to reply on the mail and very helpful. I bought a Rapier and a sail dagger from him, everything on time and as ordered, which is a rare feat for most smiths.

>>1416931
Okie! Some of his stuff looks really nice, I'll drop him a line.

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>100+ posts about boffer fighting
>because of Easton
>mfw

>>1416933
I got a huge hardon for his Schiavonas, but then I have nobody here to train Italian school with...

>>1416562
He was teaching sword and buckler. Nice guy. Can't comment on being hit, as im a no-armor pleb.

>>1416934
Regardless if you like him or not, Easton is one of the biggest names in hema, you can't deny that. If he suggests to try larping, a load of people will do it.

That said, I don't think it's really a bad thing. Trying a different approach to things often freshens things up and allows you to overcome plateus.

Also I find it fucking hilarious that a couple of larpers managed to trigger a whole bunch of shitposting autists. Most of those 100+ posts are just over-conservative hema-fags getting their panties in a twist.

>>1416396
Use any leftover paint and just paint your mask a solid color.

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Hey guys! Whats going on in this thread?

>>1416927
Someone else.

He is right. get sources or get out.

>>1416757
>>1416771
>>1416786
>>1416820
>>1416838

I made an Asian sword arts thread again if anyone is interested

>>1417100
>>1416881

>>1416954
Some of us are concerned about the whole historical bit of the HEMA thing. Tends to be a bit important to us, and they can make threads about non-historical stuff if they like.

So are the Koning gloves actually shipping now? Any idea how long it'd take to get a pair, if you haven't ordered already?

>>1417192
it's that same faggot from before; ignore him

>>1417004
Okay, so what's the deal with this guy? He's some Arma bigwig cult leader?

>>1417380
I'm the stupid bastard that actually believes ProGauntlet will deliver sometime, so I wat for them.
>yes I know, thats about as stupid as falling for 419 spam mails

>>1416954
>Regardless if you like him or not, Easton is one of the biggest names in hema, you can't deny that.
Interestingly enough, he is virtually unknown in continental Europe, really seems to be a youtube thing. As soon as you got sources available in a non english language he is just another HEMA instructor.

And as for the SCA guys, c'mon, nobody takes them for full, thats one of the reasons why we do HEMA and do no run around in full pseudo historic gear. You are right about the sperglord posts inhere are likely from easily triggered HEMAtists who fell for the bait, but this thread has a history with SCA shitposting, and so far they haven't teached us a single thing xcept for how to fornicate with fat ugly chicks.

>>1416876
>battle techniques
No such thing. You can have strategy and tactics for the people, there isn't much individual techniques.

>>1416603
>Also, you can consider yourself anything you want but as long as you're not doing olympic fencing, the mainstream population of the world won't see you as anything else but grownup men playing with swords.
Naw, if you do rapier, normies see you as a fencer. When we spar in parks and such people's questions always show this. "Oh, so it's like epee but with a different weapon" and so on.

>>1417747
There are a few in Christmann's "Schwadronhauen", foot work, how to position yourselfes when fighting multiple opponents, what to do against Cavalry and such. But I highly doubt our SCA friends ever heard of Christmann.

>>1417749
Same here for military saber.
However, if you run around in pseudo-historic gear and do boffer fighting...

>>1416901
>Who cares about sources if it works in combat.
Me. I'm learning an historical martial art, not a combat sport. We have a sport side too, obviusly, but I care more for the martial aspect. I'm not talking for every hemaist, many prefer the sport side.

Also you can learn effective stuff by trying to figure it out, but won't it be much easier to start from a treatise written by people who knew their shit?

>>1417712
>Interestingly enough, he is virtually unknown in continental Europe, really seems to be a youtube thing. As soon as you got sources available in a non english language he is just another HEMA instructor.
Yeah, but still, he's huge in the english speaking hema community, at least relatively speaking.

But I honestly doubt that SCA or larp guys can verbally bring too much to the hema community, but rather as Easton said, the amont of sparring you can do within larping easily and quickly and with bigger groups wouldn't really hurt many hema-practioners.

>>1417754
And I respect that. But I think for many people who just want to hit other people with swordlike objects learning the treatises and doing drills is really off putting. I remember my first hema-course in Fiore longsword, we never sparred even once. Just drills, looking at the instructors fight and then drill some more. I get that some people may like it but I personally like competition more, regardless of the weapon.

Boffers may not be the most accurate training-weapons but I can easily replicate most of the Fiore techniques, even against other weapon combinations and multiple opponents.

>>1416954
>Easton is one of the biggest names in hema, you can't deny that.
Because he spends his time bigging himself up on Youtube, yes. He's not really a bad instructor but not a great one either, no notable reputation among teachers unlike eg Ilkka Hartikainen or Warzecha who are almost universally respected.

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>see new HEMA thread, +100 replies overnight
>fwk yeah
>all of it's SCA trollshit
>mfw

>>1417779
>I think for many people who just want to hit other people with swordlike objects learning the treatises and doing drills is really off putting.
Honestly I have huge problems with this attitude, why learn a martial art if all you want to do is playfight people with a fake sword? If you go to karate and the instructor lets you start fighting before you've drilled a bunch that's a sure sign of a McDojo, why would it be any different for HEMA?

I'm 100% okay with you guys being put off and going to foil fencing or Bohurt or some shit. Not out of superiority or butthurt but just because HEMA genuinely doesn't seem to be for you, there's plenty of options for sporty-fighty and that way you won't dilute the martial nature of HEMA.

Sportification due to tournamentfags is one of my big concerns for HEMA long term.

>>1417380
Yes. I don't know, a couple months maybe?

>>1417530
Yes. THE leader.

>>1417690
Having seen some reviews about the Koning i don't think they're a huge step forward. They look really bulky. And i recently bought SparringGloves.

So i'm waiting to see the ProGauntlet too.

>>1417749
Whoa, normal people know what epee is?

>>1417779
That's not a problem with using a source, that's a problem with pedagogy.

>>1417826
Surprisingly many people have kids or nephews or cousins or whatever into sport fencing. I think those people are much more likely to come up and talk to you.

>>1417530
>>1417004
>He's some Arma bigwig cult leader?
He's THE arma bigwig cult leader.

Jake Norwood who was in ARMA for a time talked about his experience about it at the beginning of this interview of Alte Herren:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUWo3gjcN9U

>>1417826
Normal people can't tell an epee from a foil from a sabre. Still, they get the differece between sport fencing and historical fencing, and in their eyes rapier is closer to sport fencing than historical fencing.

>>1417824
>Having seen some reviews about the Koning
Would you post them? I've seen only a review so far, the one posted in the previous thread.
>that sad feel when the koning glove don't fit into a rappier hand guard

>>1417886
Well it's just that one and the older "official minireviews". Maybe i'd think differently if i could try them, but really thick fingers don't look like a way to have good mobility to me.

Also do you really need heavy gloves for rapier? We've fought rapier (with or without dagger) against longsword and sword and buckler without issue.

The common longsword fingerfucks are not an issue with rapiers as far as we've seen.

>>1417810
I get it and I agree that you can't just give a couple newbies steel swords and tell them to try out whatever, but we gotta accept that not everyone is in hema for the same reason and people learn things in different ways. Saying that learning through sparring is "the wrong way" is wrong because some people learn that way best, but if you learn by studying and drilling then hey, that's great.

And of course, there are the other alternatives like boffers, bohurt and sca but they all still have a lot in common with hema. I could ask here

>what's the best way to close in against a spear with a centergrip shield and a sword?

Or

>What kind of shoes would you suggest for armored fighting?

And the answers can be applied to most combat systems regardless of the equipment and rules of combat. Whenever I'm using boffers or steel weapons is pretty much irrelevant.

>>1417905
>what's the best way to close in against a spear with a centergrip shield and a sword?

You might get told

>We have no sources for that, fuck off

>>1417901
Meyer's rappier is more like a sidesword than an actual rapier but it seems anyway hands don't need to be protected as in longsword. But since gloves are very expensive I was hoping for a pair good for everything.
Well, I'll keep dreaming.

>>1417846
>Still, they get the differece between sport fencing and historical fencing, and in their eyes rapier is closer to sport fencing than historical fencing.
Not at all. Most of the time they've never heard of historical fencing. But in their eyes rapier is closer to sport fencing than it is to SCA and LARP faggotry, which was what the other guy was claiming.

>>1417913
Well with those hilts i'd expect an easier time getting gloves in there.

Also Regenyei's sideswords have extralong grips just for that.

I'd consider these: http://neymanfencing.com/glowna/13-thokk-gloves.html

The index finger SparringGloves still need some work.

>>1417905
To learn the art you need both drilling and sparring, no shit.
"I just want to hit people with swords" is a bad attitude in a martial art. You can do it as a game, but then you can't tell to serious martialist you're way is just as good as theirs.
Actual masters spent their lives trying to figure swordfighting out, training all the time. What makes you think you can do the same with way less training in an artificial environment? Isn't the best option to learn at least the fundamentals? Some drilling now and then is a fair price for a decent swordplay, isn't it?

>>1417934
*your way, sorry

But wait, there's more!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTru7XsUcyM

>>1417909
Okay so according to you unless it's spesificly mentioned in a spesific book it's not hema? A load of hema instructors will disagree with you on that.

>>1417934
I think it's wrong to judge peoples right to be part of a hobby community. It's plain out wrong to try to shut out someone because they don't share your enthusiasm on the subject or enjoy some other things. In the end, "hitting other people with swords" is a part of hema and if that is what gets them to back to class then claiming that they are not doing "real" hema according to you is just being a prick.

If you want people to take your hobby seriously, you should aim towards being more inclusive.

>>1417968
No, it's not my opinion, i think there's value in trying to understand how things worked or could work even without sources. But it seems pretty widespread.

>>1417968
Yeah, and soccer and basketball are the same because they both involve balls. Amateur games and professional sports are the same because it doesn't matter if you train or just go for the matches.
Get your shit together.

Ok, just woke up after a lovely weekend.
Could someone fill me in about all this SCA "we HEMA now, respect us" shitposting. Why are the wankers here again?
>can't be arsed to read trough 150+ posts of pure garbage.

>>1417973
Absolutely, but it's still not the only way. If you're into hema for the competetive aspect then you can become proficient with almost nothing but sparring. Not the best, but proficient.

>>1417975
You are right, soccer and basketball both involve balls. Professionally played with very different balls but both can be train with next any ball.

And yes, a community should welcome both serious to-be professionals as well as casuals who are just looking for a hobby

>>1417968
I do not give a fuck if people take my hobby seriously. However, I am glad that the SCA folks of Europe accept that they are not HEMA but a big happy LARP community and so everybody is happy with their respective hobbies.
I suggest you take the hint and and leave us be, it is pretty obvious that nobody here wants to have anything to do with you.

>>1417983
>I'm a soccer player, you can't tell me I'm not part of the basketball hobby.

>>1417981
Not actually SCA, straight up larpers

>Matt Easton makes a video saying hema-practioners could benefit from the larp scene
>hema purists get super-triggered
>some fags troll the shit out of said purists
>/hema/ is in full damage control mode

Also I guess some bohurt, sca and larpers told they'll be migrating here as the rest of /asp/ shows no signs of returning to normal.

>>1417981
Easton posted a vid where he gave his opinion that melee/battle situations are trained not enough in HEMA (despite lack of sources) and that foam boffer fighting would be a safe and easy way to train that.
SCA folks jumped the band wagon and for some odd reason think now they are are HEMA relevant, mainly because they cannot into an own thread.

The rest of the story is like
>we HEMA relevant now, repect us
>no please leave

>but our foam swords blablabla
>no please leave

>but we like swords too and I heard that in HEMA...
>no, please leave

Etc. so far they are still here and try really hard to get accepted by people that couldn't give less of a shit about them. So, the usually drama when SCA shows up.

>>1417886
Why the fuck do you need anything other than a leather glove for rapier, you nancy?

>>1417993
Depends on, for most Rapiers it is really not needed, but for example for the weapon type that Meyer uses for his Rapier treaties, there is only minimal hand protection and a comparatively heavy blade, so it makes some sense there.

>>1417992
foam weapons is nothing to do with SCA
It was a separate discussion that foam weapons is or isn't legit to train beginners. Some thinks that if you touched a foam weapon ever then you can never be in HEMA, some says it's good for training beginners.
And a lot of people just doesn't give a fuck about it

>>1417993
To be fair we've had one broken finger doing cup hilt rapier, but anything like longsword heavy gloves seems excessive.

So for steel sparring, it seems that the available options are:

Sparring Glove which emphasizes dexterity over protection

SPES Gauntlets which are the opposite

And now Koning gloves which are purportedly the middle ground between the two.

Progauntlet supposedly does everything well but won't be ready for another few years. I've heard of people using mail mittens, but I think that was an intermediate solution before the main options were developed (not sure though).

Any other options outside of spending a fuckton of money to get custom gauntlets made?

>>1418003
>Sparring Glove which emphasizes dexterity over protection
Nope, they are pretty rigid and have a very high protection level.

>>1417997
>And a lot of people just doesn't give a fuck about it
This. I honestly don't care if we get some non-hema people lurking and posting here, as long as they keep the off topic to a minimum. A little diversity won't hurt. Besides, both sticks and foam-weapons are part of hema even if SCA and larp aren't.

>>1417991
>some fags troll the shit out of said purists
I'm not sure about this, I've met people who actually are that dumb

>>1418004
Well if you're comparing them to the Spes Heavy it might be right.

>>1418003
Neyman has SparringGloves style gloves for cheaper. In either case i think the index finger model is worthwhile, but for that one i think i'd go Neyman, the SparringGloves version has weirdo ergonomics and the index curves when you open it.

SparringGloves can have a long cuff, which means you don't need more arm protection (perhaps a small elbow cup).

Also mail mittens make no sense for what we do. Shitty impact protection for the weight.

There's a guy in my club who covered his Lacrosse glove in thick leather to close the gaps, but he looks like Hellboy. It's very bulky. Also he hasn't gone to any hard hitting tournaments with it so far.

>>1418008
>foam-weapons
Where the heck do we have foam weapons please? I seriously never saw them, except for some really drunk "floppy dick" fighting at the Swordfish aftershow.
Also the 100+ SCA related shitposts show pretty well how this is gonna turn out. JSA yes, Oly fencing yes, FMA, yes.
HMB, Bohurt, SCA, LARP, please not again.

>>1418013
even PBT sells padded sword simulators.
I mean they are shit, but still they are exists and people use them

>>1418013
You know, they're only shit because they're all an argument on whether they should be here.

In contrast the JSA/Modern fencing/FMA posts had some relevant discussion.

>>1418013
Most of the shitposting was just hema-fags crying
>"m-muh SCA is ruining everything again".

The subject started as just discussion around Eastons video about using foam or latex weapons to simulate larger melee battles but went of track and then some fags started feeding the trolls.

>>1416149
I thought it depends on what you want. I've heard 1.5k€ should put you in the range of a good cutting sword, but for details I think you are better off asking him yourself.

Are there actually any decent treatises concerning heater-style shields and such? Most of shield techniques seem to be just buckler stuff.

>>1417968
>I think it's wrong to judge peoples right to be part of a hobby community. It's plain out wrong to try to shut out someone because they don't share your enthusiasm on the subject or enjoy some other things.
Okay so should we welcome knitters or footballers or some shit who identify as HEMAists? This isn't gender politics, you faggot. If you're not doing what we're doing, you don't belong in our clubs. I say that without rancor; I hope you find a great crocheting club or whatever the fuck it is you're actually into, but you clearly don't belong in my fencing club with your lace project.

>>1418021
Unfortunately no. There is some bolognese unarmored sidesword and roundshield but it doesn't work well on armored heather shield and arming sword. Also there is talhoffer dueling shield and sword, but it is weird af.

>>1417968
>Okay so according to you unless it's spesificly mentioned in a spesific book it's not hema?
Believe it or not, "historical" literally means "written down". That's why there's such a thing as "prehistorical". So no, if it's not written down in a book it's not historical European martial arts. At best it's *speculative* European martial arts.

>I think it's wrong to judge peoples right to be part of a hobby community.
http://plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html
NAN BAH WAN!

>>1418026
Okay, so according to /hema/ shields are therefore larp... great...

>>1417993
Totally agree for rapier but as previously mentioned in this thread the German "rappier" is basically a sidesword. They're choppy as fuck, you wouldn't want to wear different protection than you use for sabre -- more if anything since the hilt's more open than a military sabre bell.

>>1417968
This is a bit retarded. As another anon said, this is a martial art, you should know that before sparring you need to drill the basics, not only to get decent but to make everything safer. Have you ever tried sparring with someone that knows no shit? Its a pain in the ass, its easier to get hurt and its frustrating for both. If you want to just hit someone with a sword find another person buy two wasters and go at it, dont go into a fuckin club expecting to do sparring right away. People like you end up being a burden to all the other students that actually want to learn and study.

>>1418022
I'm an a-driller swordfluid, my pronouns are hema/scahema, and you're oppressing me.

>>1418013
>Where the heck do we have foam weapons please? I seriously never saw them
One of the big polanball sabre guys started using them IIRC because he fucked his hands up so bad and so often from doing polanballish sabre with steel. I'd bet they're some sort of custom construction though and not just boffers.

>>1418031
None said that. There is some speculative work which unlike larp is based on non direct evidences, and we just acknowledge it is speculation so it might be real just as much as it might not.

>>1417983
>If you're into hema for the competetive aspect then you can become proficient with almost nothing but sparring. Not the best, but proficient.
Just so you know you're the eact kind of guy other HEMAists who compete in tournaments hate and try to build rules to stop. You and your shit is the driver behind sportification that stops tournaments from being an effective gauge of actual fighting ability.


Personally I think the rules work is misguided, the major events should just run all their tournaments with sharps for a couple years.

>>1418041
>Personally I think the rules work is misguided, the major events should just run all their tournaments with sharps for a couple years.
Roland pls

>>1417690
I too want to believe...

>>1418020
Ok, thanks for the info, I definitely will ask him.

Gentlemen, your eminent opinion on this video please https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtcaPx5wMxo
Is it just me, or this guy is basically shitting on the very foundational historical aspect of HEMA for the sake of being *efficient* in a competitive environment?
What are your thoughts?

>>1418123
No, he's shitting on people who only train static drills and have no concept of time and distance.

>>1418015
From what I've seen the foam swords are only used for the children's groups. Beginners adults use nylon synthetic swords.

>>1418145
>people still is convinced that manuscripts contain precise technical informations
This sounded really like some "treatises-are-useless-crap-and-techniques-don'r-really-work-let's-do-whatever-works" like statement to me. Maybe I misjudged! Thnx /asp/ can't wait to hear other opinions on that

>>1418123
He highlights a pretty common problem for beginners, that in a sparring situation they try to execute a certain technique they practiced in a drill but don't have a follow up, so they end up freezing after they finish their moves because they don't know what to do next.

He's complaining about the lack of flow you get if you try to directly apply choreographed drills in a real fight. The techniques you practice aren't always 100% applicable in a sparring situation so you have to adapt to reality and adjust your movements. You should still use the techniques from the drills but you have to realize that you're fighting a moving opponent who will actually fight back.

At least that's my interpretation.

>>1418123
I'm not sure I understood what he said about the techniques in the treatises (and it's not a language problem, I speak italian, I just didn't get the point).
Anyway, it's true people should consider their opponents won't throw clean attacks and then stand still. So training with a reactive opponent isn't a bad idea. It's not a new idea too, to be honest.
I recall I read something like this right here on /asp/, months ago.

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>tfw reading all this shitposting
>tfw it's all matt easton fault

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>interested in HEMA
>only 3 clubs on the map near me are Pankration only, rapier fencing, and in the very heart of downtown Phoenix

>>1418716
Have you actually visited them? They might have people who do other stuff even if it's not the main club thing.

>>1418716
Could be worse. You could live next to these guys. http://www.selohaar.org/

>>1416920
>I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you are clinically retarded instead of being a troll

He's right though. That's what wooden wasters and synthetics are for. Foam padded weapons serve absolutely no purpose.

>>1418636
>tfw he just made another video shilling larp
Should we write he collective letter asking to STOP THAT IMMEDIATELY?

>>1417779
>and doing drills is really off putting.

Then, and I'm not some HEMAutist here, maybe it's not for them.

That's like stepping into a boxing gym or walking into a wrestling room and crying because you're expected to drill and learn before they let you get your ass kicked in the ring or on the mat.

Drilling and sparring are two tools that are at their most effective when together, and almost useless when apart (for the beginner).

>>1418716
>rapier fencing
Lucky you.

>>1417905
>Saying that learning through sparring is "the wrong way" is wrong

No one but the most up their own ass CMA fag is going to say that.

However sparring isn't the only tool, and you're not going to learn almost anything purely from sparring except that it hurts to get hit, you need drilling as well. In fact, only sparring with no other training against other people with or without other training is going to do nothing but teach you bad habits.

>>1419163
I don't know about boxing but my experience from greco-roman wrestling was that we were shown like one move per day that we trained for like 15min followed by about 30min of sparring and trying out the technique in practise. I really don't think boxing either do any direct drills outside of mitts and bag hitting but all competition oriented MAs really encoirage sparring as soon as possible to give the much needed fighting experience. Not necessarily full force but still sparring.

>>1416944
If you have a chance to work with him, do it. He got me into HEMA and buhurt and is awesome to hang with.

Don't drink with him though.

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>>1418716
Phoenix, Arizona?
Speaking of that, I lived in suburban Phoenix for a few years before I got interested in HEMA, and now I feel like a dumbfuck for living right next to Richard Marsdensl's club and not taking advantage of it.

I found this recently while looking for sparring steel for sabre. I realize it is Cold Steel so likely less than satisfactory. But having found little around the web about it, I was wondering if any of you folks knew anything about it? Lovely price if it is even half decent.

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=CS92BKTS&

>>1419207
My experience from four years of Folkstyle wrestling was that the first couple of weeks were drilling and position wrestling. We didn't start actually free wrestling until week 3 or later during the season.

My experience with fighting kickboxing and MMA is about the same. No good fight gym is going to throw someone in the ring on their first day.

And even then, it's a much different thing for some chuckle fuck who can't throw a proper punch yet to throw on some 16oz gloves and step into the ring than it is for that same person to swing a longsword around with no control.

>>1419207
>like one move per day that we trained for like 15min followed by about 30min of sparring

Also not to shit on you or anything but it sounds like you were training at a place that was super casual about training and wasn't preparing guys to compete. Even in folkstyle we were in the wrestling room + conditioning outside for 4+ hours a day.

>>1422656
>>1422663
Okay, it was junior class so I guess it was semi-casual.

I guess I'm just trying to say that excluding someone because they're not intrested in every part of the hobby bring unnecessary bad blood the whole hobby. If sparring is the thing that brings someone back to hema class, time after time, I don't really see the problem. Not everyone has to enjoy the drills and old techniques.

>>1422783
FUCK OFF

>>1422783
>Okay, it was junior class so I guess it was semi-casual.

It's not just the times that made me think that, but that you're going from drilling to free wrestling immediately. In a practice we probably spent about 2/3 of the practice after warm up and conditioning on drilling. As the season went on we would spend more time with free wrestling until the point that near the end of the season and going into post season tournaments the time was flipped and about 1/3 was drilling and position wrestling.

My point being that drilling and learning built a base that we could then apply in free wrestling, dual meets, and tourneys.

>>1422783
>I guess I'm just trying to say that excluding someone because they're not intrested in every part of the hobby bring unnecessary bad blood the whole hobby.

Sure. That doesn't mean that any one group is required to let those people train with them.

>If sparring is the thing that brings someone back to hema class, time after time, I don't really see the problem. Not everyone has to enjoy the drills and old techniques.

Then perhaps they should take up something else, like playing Soul Caliber where actually learning technique and drilling isn't required.

Otherwise they are wasting their time, because they aren't actually learning anything, and the time of the people they want to train with, because they have to be aware that some dick suck is showing up just to try and fight people.

We had a person like that who continually showed up only to want to beat on people with a sword, which lead to some injuries. After I lateral tossed him across the field he didn't come back. And our group was better off for it.

>>1422783
What do you want from us? Do you want us to change the way we all train because you don't like it? Do you just want to be accepted as part of HEMA even if you're not doing it? Do you want us to tolerate people like you in our clubs, lowering our standard? Every martial art and combat sport ever is drilling + sparring, and you're a humongous capricious faggot who want all fun and no work and refuse to accept the truth. What the hell is wrong with you that you can't stand any drill at all, to the point you keep claiming there is no actual need for drilling? You're acting like a stubborn child. We won't change for you, we won't like, accept and/or respect you. Just leave. You have your hobby and that's good for you, now stop pushing it here. You're not welcome in the HEMA community and in this thread anymore.

>>1422965
You missed my point, that not everyone is looking for that constant learning, some people might just enjoy sparring and the community. If someone is paying their membership fee and isn't deliberatly ruining the hobby for others, kicking him out for being "too casual" is just being a dick a hurtful for the entire communtiy.

That one guy seemed like he was disturbing others though, although I would've maybe pointed it out to the instructor instead and talked it out like grownups.

>>1422982
I'm just here to talk medieval combat, weapons and armor as this is the best place for it on 4chan. I've been here for a longer time so not leaving anytime soon. Also thank god not everyone in the hema community is as cancerous as you are, even if it sometimes seems like it due to assholes like you. :^)

>>1416141
I always thought hema guys were pretty serious about keeping their stuff from becoming mere sport, but I guess there are people who dont share that view.

I cant imagine someone approaching one of the old masters and saying "I'm not interested in your plays, I just want to spar with your guys." I wonder what the reaction would be

>>1423026
>That one guy seemed like he was disturbing others though, although I would've maybe pointed it out to the instructor instead and talked it out like grownups.

I am an instructor.

And one of the other more senior instructors was also more aware of the issues with this individual than I was.

>kicking him out for being "too casual" is just being a dick a hurtful for the entire communtiy.

It's not kicking them out for being "too casual", it's excluding them because they bring absolutely nothing to the table and increase the likelihood of injury.

When I was fighting in kickboxing and MMA we had the exact same problem with people coming into the gym who thought they already knew better and wanted to just spar. They caused injuries specifically and increased the likelihood of injury for themselves or anyone else stepping into the ring with them. We did the exact same thing as a HEMA club would do, except from what I've seen of HEMA they are much nicer than fighters.

>>1423033
It was called a dojo yaburi (salle breaker) in Japan, not that long ago those guys were put against veterans of the Manchuria campaign (who had to fight to the death with swords) or someone who escaped being a kamikaze by hours only.
I read something about a dojo yaburi pitted against the teacher of a jujutsu class being almost strangled to death with a shoelace by said teacher because he forgot to tell him he didn't want to fight with shoelaces... (and he didn't see the teacher taking out his shoelaces in plain view).

I've heard a guy trying this in a salle in modern era France (1600's), first he was refused, then later that day he was jumped by the provost and half a dozen others of the salle who proceed to beat him badly with sticks.

>>1423033
I'm pretty sure there's the whole spectrum of differenct answers from different masters. I'm sure people like Matt Easton would gladly give newbies padded longsword after a brief lesson in basics and safety while others wont allow any sparing until the second or third year.

>>1423039
Okay, I understand your regard for safety. However, it's still just your opinion. Also, some people can practise hema outside of classes by themselves. Are these people not welcome in hema either because they don't fit your view?

>>1423064
>However, it's still just your opinion.
Injuries are not an opinion.

>>1423072
Injuries happen in all sports. They can be minimized with the right equipment but they still happen. How much you are ready to compromise for safety is an opinion.

>>1422783
>Not everyone has to enjoy the drills and old techniques.
No they don't. Those people are welcome to do something other than the explicitly old-techniques based hobby. Like SCA, or bohurt.

I mean Jesus, how many times will we have to repeat this?

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Let's play some bingo.

>>1423117
He refuses to understand

>>1423117
And how many times do I have to repeat: You don't get to choose who can be part of the community and who can't. Esspecially on an anonymous imageboard.

>>1423064
>I'm sure people like Matt Easton would gladly give newbies padded longsword after a brief lesson in basics and safety
Actually last I heard Schola Gladiatoria has a separate newbie class and doesn't let them spar.

>>1423131
>And how many times do I have to repeat: You don't get to choose who can be part of the community and who can't.
I think you'd find that if you weren't anonymous you'd have a serious and permanent reputation problem in HEMA circles from now on.

>>1423139
Thank god I'm not in your hema circles then. I'm fine in ours though, as ours isn't filled with entiteled assholes. :)

>>1423131
HEMA is the reconstruction of historical styles and techniques. If you're not into it you're not part of the community, no matter how hard you troll in an imagebord with a thread about it. It's that simple. It's your word against the facts.
I honestly don't understand why you struggle that much to be part of it if you don't share its purpose.
Keep posting if you fell so, it won't change facts.

>>1423147
Because, even if I don't fit your vision of the community, I'm still interested in medieval european combat. If you don't want to see me as "a hema practitioner" then fine whatever. But I'll still be here discussing subjects that are shared by both hema and other "sword-sports". And I genuinely enjoy these threads, despite the baiting and shitposting.

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>>1416141
Changing subject,
I am trying to find mixed weapons plays that doesn't have two fairly different types of weapons, so nothing like sword vs spear or sword vs dagger, but rather longsword vs sword&buckler, longsword vs rapier (I know Thibault and Fabris have some about it), anyone have more example like this ?

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>>1418026
>Also there is talhoffer dueling shield

You mean these things?

>>1418716
>Pankration

DUDE, GO, PANKRATION IS HARDXCORE

YOU CAN COME BACK AND CALL US ALL NANCYPANTS

>>1423194
>You mean these things?
Yep. Weird but cool, aren't they?

I am purchasing a feder soon. I've held the Regenyei and it felt fantastic. How does it compare to the Hungarian munitions feder? What are the differences?

>>1423225
>Hungarian munitions feder

Are you talking about Landsknecht Emporium? No idea about those but the few they've made seem to get some really good reviews. Hope to get to see one in person soon.

Regenyeis in general feel pretty cheap (because they are, if you are in europe at least) but are sturdy swords. And after you use a sword for a while they won't look very pretty anyways. They're very common sparring swords for a reason, they're decent quality, affordable and durable.

In general the difference between feders will be in the handiwork, an Albion feder will have a lot nicer blade and generally feels a lot nicer to hold than a Regenyei, smoother and more rounded in the details while a regenyei can be a bit rough in the edges and feel more industrial. But they're also a lot more expensive.

I don't know how the waiting times look for the hungarian ones either.

>>1423225
There are some reviews on fb and etsy

"First impression: the feder handles nicely, despite being a bit heavier than the standard version (mine is around 1700g). The POB is around 12 cm from the hilt. I gave it a few swings and I can clearly feel it. Yes, this is one mean S.O.B., but I wanted it that way. The finishing is kind of rough, but then again, I also like it; the hilt and pommel (peened, by the way) were cast. The contact with Landsknecht Emporium was simply excellent! I was informed at every stage of production what was going on, hence, the dates were clear and realistic. Another thing was the price, lower than the current standards. Overall, I am happy to state that we have got another reliable and customer friendly blacksmith in our society! Edit. Oh, and I love it's Meyerisque looks."

"swordplaycraig
swordplaycraig il 22 giu 2016
5 out of 5 stars
I am delighted with this sword. It is definitely munitions grade, with a rough, blackened finish, and a bit of historically appropriate hand made asymetry. The balance and handling are fantastic, and after a few weeks of use (teaching 3-4 times a week, some freeplay use) I am convinced of its durability and safety. I am not a metallurgist, and I am not willing to do destructive testing, and we are probably towards the low-impact end in our freeplay, but I would rate this as safe as a red dragon feder. Frankly, I like everything about it better than my red dragon (which I have now sold), although the finish is rougher, which may not be to everyone 's taste. If you make more, my students will buy them. If you keep them in production, I will name them the official feder of Ottawa Swordplay."

>>1423388
"I remember a few people was wondering about this Feder I got mine in today. Munitions grade feder in from Landsknecht Emporium. First impressions, love the old look, feels very alive in the hands, not to over flexible but will flex. Owner was super friendly never missed an email. The price was unbelievable for this sword! (189$) (Con's) just a bit on the heavy side for me, but not bad... If your looking for a shiny Feder this is not it.. Will see how it hold's up in the future.

Pommel is cast, the quillons are forged and ground. Overall length: 1280mm/50.39"
Blade length: 980mm/38.58"
Thickness: 6mm to 3mm/0.236" to 0.118"
Weight: 1405g/3.19 pounds
PoB from quillons: 80mm/3.14" (just over the end of the Schilt)

The blade is made by stock removal from 51crv4 (spring) steel, heat treated to 52-54 HrC. It's neither cleaned nor polished. Tip is rolled for added safety, Grip core is plywood, covered with vegetable-tanned leather"

>>1417795
>Warzecha
>Universally respected
Pick one

>>1423064
>Also, some people can practise hema outside of classes by themselves. Are these people not welcome in hema either

Certainly they are welcome to train on their own. But that doesn't mean that they have to be included in any local HEMA organization.

Injuries are a major concern, but so is quality control. Lack of quality control is what has led to the entire concept of Bullshido and McDojos.

>>1423143
>I'm fine in ours
And because they know you you aren't (yet) an obstinate cock suck to them like you're being here.

>>1423143
Wait, entitled?

You're the one going on about how you want to be included without putting the work and research into the practice.

>>1423956
>>1423994
Welps, your answering to the SCA bait queen. It is pretty obvious that he never had anything to do with HEMA.

>>1424098
Apologies, didn't think before replying.

What books about longsword combat would you fine gents recommend?

>>1424287
Are you talking about old manuals or more modern books? There are plenty of good translations of manuals online.

>>1424293
Modern translations of old disciplines would be preferred.

Also, I'd prefer physical books; can't take my computer around with me

Which schools/styles/whatever of swordsmanship used cuts and thrusts more or less equally?

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can HEMA teach me how to use one of these bad boys?

>>1424316
We don't really know as counting techniques doesn't really tell us how much they were used.

But i'd say the moment tips become pointy rather than spatulate is when you start to see a good amount of thrusting (so late Viking Age IIRC), up to sideswords (XVIth century).

After that point we have Spanish Destreza which leads with the point but retains cuts for rapierish swords (some people argue they'd be sideswords). I'd assume certain military swords would also have a bit of both, but i haven't really studied that.

>>1424315
In that case Joachim Meyer's Art of combat is a good one to start with. It's available in hardcover. If you want to do german longsword that is. You can probably find italian ones like Fiore too. Personally i go with Ringeck, but just a printed pdf with translations and footnotes.

>>1424318
We have no sources that i know of and it's hard to make a safe simulator for something that relies on sheer impact force.

So you might be able to experiment a bit in sparring, but you're going to need pell work with an actual weapon a lot more than with swords to really get used to the real thing i guess.

>>1424343
Interesting, will keep an eye out for that one!
Spotted some copies of Hans Talhoffer's "Medieval Combat" going pretty cheap. Worth it?

>>1424387
Haven't read it so i can't say. But if it's cheap then why not. Doesn't hurt to have many different books.

Try to find it online and skim through it to see if it's what you're looking for maybe?

>>1424404
Not really finding anything. Will just wing it because shit's cheap.

Cheers!

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The HEMA club I joined has everyone fighting with an arming sword in one hand and a banner in the other? And they do this weird training exercise where you spar while hopping on one foot "to simulate horseback fighting"? Is this normal?

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>>1424485
That sounds completely insane. Why hold a banner?

There are some games in the manuals that involves hopping on one leg, like Ringen im grüblein, but that's for wrestling not swords. And has nothing to do with simulating horses. That's just weird. What kind of people are you training with?

>>1424318
Like the other guy said, flails share a problem with many other arms, like halberds, pollaxes and arguably even spears, in that it's fucking hard to make an *authentic and *safe simulator for it that won't smash anybody's shit up. There *is* plenty of halberd work in certain manuals, but it's under-studied and especially under-fought because of this issue.

(With a halberd, even a boffer can be a problem if it's *too* flimsy/soft as the pole may just bash through. With a flail it's more like, how do you get enough weight into the flailheads for them to function properly without making them hit fucking hard? Depleted uranium slugs inside foam balls?)

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>>1424515
>Depleted uranium slugs inside foam balls?

>>1424515
>>1424532
Sounds good fund it

>>1424485
Dude I think you joined this guy's club >>1422783

>>1424515
That,s only really a problem for sparring with them, they were practiced primarily as drill for that exact reason

I always wonder how much material there is out there. Like I found a late 19th century library record with a book about backsword techniques named. The library in question had been torn down years ago and there was nothing to be found on google about it.

>>1424697
It is very likely that there is quite a bit of undiscovered literature on HEMA related topics out there.
I think I read somewhere that in history related studies it is quite common to assume that there is no written material on something because no one could be arsed to search through every collection that could hold relevant documents.
So it is possible that someone with access to old documents could stumble upon some major treatise.
Personally I hope that we get something from eastern europe, I hold it to be quite unlikely that only people from western europe thought it is a good idea to write their stuff down.

>>1425370
Maybe we'll even find the Transylvanian's preferred methods of flailing balls about.

Should I learn fencing first, and then branch off to HEMA? There's a German School by my town, how much of fencing applies to German School HEMA?

>>1423390
They seem to be around the same weight and even a bit lighter than the Regenyei's. If that's the case I'll get the Hungarian one, especially due to the lower price.

>>1425522
Go straight to HEMA

>>1425522
The technique of sports fencing does not translate at all, but the skills that are trained in sports fencing, like timing and distance management or fight intelligence translate very well to all kinds of fencing. However, it takes years to develop said skills.

>>1424318
There is a bit of techniques written on the long flail in Paulus Hector Mair, but like with most Mair things it is a curiosum at best. short flairs like in your pics are never mentioned in HEMA and I'm not sure if they are even real weapons or just a Victorian hoax.

>>1424387
Talhoffer is soso, he was a competent fencer, unfortunately there a re a lot of bad translations out on his works. Joachim Meyer, Peter von Danzig or Simon von Ringeck would be better.

>>1424485
I do both hema and reenactment and there's this guy in my club who would like to fight battles in the first line with banner and sword. We don't allow that shit tho.
>>1424318
There is something about two handed flails in Mair and maybe some other treatises, but nobody does it because
-Safety
-It isn't a complete system, but just a few plays
-Was it real or just Mair's fantasy? Paesants did use flails to fight, but were they trained to?

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Who's all going to CombatCon next weekend?

I won't be competing due to a hand injury, but I'll be there to watch the tournaments and probably run the score table again or judge.

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>>1425827
>I do both hema and reenactment and there's this guy in my club who would like to fight battles in the first line with banner and sword. We don't allow that shit tho.
In your hema or reenactment club? And do you mean you don't allow him in first line or allow him to use those weapons at all?

We have one guy who insists on fighting with a flail and a banner. He though accepts is fate and stays behind the line. But he's grown really proficient with those weapons. He says he's borrowed a lot from Zulu stick fighting.

>>1425930
Are you guys in south africa? I only know of one westerner whose actually trained in zulu martial arts

>>1425936
Naah, he hasn't per se trained in it, just looked up some technique on the web. You can't really find a courses in more exotic MAs where I'm from.

>>1425930
My club does both things.
We don't let him fight first line with banner. He can fight first line, but not with the banner. Or he can carry the banner, but then he has to stay behind the lines.

>>1425982
Well, then it has nothing at all to do with HEMA.

>>1425827
I think I once saw a treatise wich had Rapier against two handed flail in it. But I can't remember the author

>>1426025
Yep, but I felt like sharing, since it was insane banner fighting related.
>>1425370
There are tons of private libraries and archives and almost no one exept the owner know what's inside. Sometimes owners don't even care, just inherited the collections from their families and don't bother to take a look. There's a lot of stuff relevant to HEMA that will eventually be rediscovered.

>>1426058
On a similar-ish note Girard has smallsword against something like a 6-pieces flail.

>>1425982
That sounds reasonable.

>>1426025
You could try pulling your head out of your arse and try enjoying things for a change.

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>>1426074
Here's the whacky image about the "fléaux brisés".
Girard has a lot of plays about specific styles (italian, german, spanish) and / or specific weapons (sabre, spadroon, spear) all against the smallsword.
This one seems to be of the "you're attacked by a vile peasant in the middle of nowhere"-type.

>>1426111
>disgruntled SCA fag detected

>>1426150
>This one seems to be of the "you're attacked by a vile peasant in the middle of nowhere"-type.
Yep, that's a threshing flail, not a weapon of war. (Which would have been at least 200 years outdated by that time anyway)

>>1416141
I was watching Alte Herren's interviews, Jake Norwood, Ties Kool and Illka Hartikainen's in particular (which are a bit long but there are some nice things in it). And I gotta ask if people know more about what the hell is going on with Scott Hellroth ? If it's just a private joke or if there is some real beef.

>>1426150
>Officer, it was self defence! He attacked me with a set of sausage links!

>>1426488
At least it wasn't fresh fruits !

>>1424485
>The HEMA club I joined has everyone fighting with an arming sword in one hand and a banner in the other? And they do this weird training exercise where you spar while hopping on one foot "to simulate horseback fighting"? Is this normal?
Sounds legit.

>>1416141
So Ive seen alot of Hema guys poo poo or minimize the importance of plays/forms. or teat them as merely prep for the "true" practice which is sparring.

Is this attitude common?

>>1429249
Plays/forms are important, but they where made for fencing, so the goal is to drill those plays so that you are able to pull them under pressure with a non cooperating opponent.

>>1429256
right but they were a way of training for a match with sharps originally correct?

>>1429268
Nope, Federfechten was already popular back then. There are more manuals for friendlies than for deadlies, at least as long as we talk about the classic longsword, other weapon types may differ.

>>1429274
I see, coming from the Japanese traditions I find that really weird since "safe" fencing really didn't catch on till the 1700's.

Was there any criticism of feder fencing at the time as watered down or deficient by masters who did not do it?

>>1429249
>>1429268
If you have no technique, you are a buffalo, but if you train historical fencing and cannot fence, then you also failed, this is not a kata contest.

>>1429249
Some people argue that plays are overrated because in plays the opponent doesn't react at all. In my opinion, master explained it in that way so their students could understand the mechanical concepts of the play. There is kind of a missing step from the idealized plays and the sparring reality.
When I learn a new play I first try it slow and clean, then I try to pull it out from "dirty" exercises where my opponent is more reactive. Then I try to do it in free sparring whenever I get the chance.
Doing this I see stuff works, even if the form isn't as pure as in the ideal plays.

Btw I also like form and I try to be as clean as I can. But this is the last step when learning.

>>1429285
According to the old accounts, they often lost teeth, sometimes and ear or even an eye. (anyone got the manual, fat blokes, colored, all with headwounds at the fechtschule, can't find it)

There was critic on Federfencing, the brutes who practice it and the brawls that came along with it but not exactly with the technique itself.
The accounts on who was a recognized master of a fencing guild is a different story apparently they had to do quite a bit more than just feder fencing to get licensed.

>>1429310
>According to the old accounts, they often lost teeth, sometimes and ear or even an eye.

Sparring with metal will do that. even safety weapons if used right (or wrong depending on your perspective) can cause some pretty serious injuries

>>1429268
Yes and no, as the others said there was a lot of match fencing. But you're correct in that the expressed context for most of the German treatises is a judicial longsword duel, and then they add various techniques to that base for things such as facing an armored enemy, halberds and so forth.

>>1429310
>(anyone got the manual, fat blokes, colored, all with headwounds at the fechtschule, can't find it)
They have those headwounds because that particular manual shows plays for a very federbased fencing system where only head hits told. The blood is actually shown because the winner was the first to draw blood from the other's scalp, that was how they judged a clean hit.

>>1429412
>judicial longsword duel
Was abolished around 1500, everything afterwards was not in that context anymore. Also, many manual before 1500 are clearly sport oriented or mixed, fight to the death manuals are rather rare.

>>1429412
>the manual, fat blokes, colored, all with headwounds
Yes, what it's name again?

Is I.33 a fight to death or friendly sparring? It changes a lot when you fight with different purposes.

>>1429543
Friendly in the context, but they are legit techniques.

>>1429563
Yeah, they work fine in both soft and hard sparring. But I feel like - I don't know how to explain it right - the flow is different. I don't know if it is normal or if I'm doing something wrong.

>>1429543
It's very much a system designed around killing the other guy, I don't think it has much to do with social sparring/play fighting or even necessarily judicial dueling. Most of the end points of the plays are conclusively fatal strikes.

>>1429789
>a monk and a girl fight for fun
>it is about killing
wanna try again?

Ask a guy who just spent €250 on specialist literature (swords and antique weapons) anything.

>>1430240
worth it ?

>>1430245
It makes me happy, for some odd reasons.
I also hope to start dealing with antique weapons sometime in the future so I see it as an investment.

>>1430240
>>1430260
Could you be a bit more specific?

>>1430289
Heribert Seitz, Blankwaffen I&II
August Demmin, Die Kriegswaffen in ihren geschichtlichen Entwicklungen
And it gives me sexual pleasure to fingerfuck a really nice blade
>had a tête à tête with a Styrian Dussack yesterday, around 1570, I came buckets

>>1430322
>I sexually identify as an Oakeshott XVIIIb

Bump limit reached!!!
New thread: >>1430349

Bump limit reached!!!
New thread: >>1430349

Bump limit reached!!!
New thread: >>1430349