Eternal HEMA General (Rapier distasters special eidition)

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>>1366936

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>>1366833
hokushin itto ryu is legit, and they do have sparring. The new head of the style is actually European by birth, he was apparently the best student so the old Japanese head master "adopted" him and passed on everything to him.

I believe he is the one pictured here doing a tengu jump

>>1366814
sounds like karate bojutsu rather than Japanese bojutsu.

>Both Ochs as well as hokushin itto ryu are great

Fugg which one do I pick

Oh well, guess I'll pay both of them a visit and flip a coin

>>1366936
Guy on the right looks so done with your bullshit.
>Oh wow, you're stabbing me in the neck.
>That's great.
>Asshole.

>>1366971
whichever one appeals to you. I will say that joining a koryu like hokushin itto ryu is generally considered a serious commitment

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>>1366975
Fite me but Agrippa's treatise drawings are pretty top-tier in that regard.
>trying to stab me ?
>lol I'll contratempo this without even looking at you
>what do you mean shit perspective ?
>tips dagger

>>1366978
>I will say that joining a koryu like hokushin itto ryu is generally considered a serious commitment

Yeah, I probably shouldn't take an eternally binding blood oath when I'm not even sure if I'd rather go the european or japanese way

Anyway, thanks for all the info

>>1366986
Requesting more shit like this.

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>>1366993

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>>1366999
>That's it, I'm done with this sword and dagger shit
>stab me in the heart, I couldn't care less...

>>1367005
Inter-ryu relations could resemble something such, yes. When in 1822 a branch of the Maniwa Nen ryu heard that a group of the Hokushin Itto ryu intended to put up a votive plaque at a shrine which they saw as "nen ryu turf", they responded with gathering over 300 nen ryu students in town, settling down like a samurai war camp. The shogunate managed to convince the Itto ryu group to pass on it all, before it turned into a minor war.

Then in 1929 a movie was produced about the whole thing, painting Nen ryu as the loosers. With backing from supporters in the Tokyo police and the ultranationalist side of things, nen ryu students stormed the movie studio with bokken, confiscated the master of the film, and forced the studio to issue an official apology.

This is part of why most ryu are very strict about students fighting or sparring with students form other schools. Things could escalate.

>>1367023
>Bitch please.
>You call that a thrust?
>I'll show your mom a thrust.

>>1366993
In the long term you might be allowed to train other stuff, depending on the rules. though starting both at the same time would be a bad idea anyway

>>1367072
I read about that too. Its not talked about but there were a lot of ties between koryu, the police, and ultra nationalist groups, especially before the war

Any tips on finding Hema instructors that are actually skilled in martial arts? Especially when it comes to footwork and such

>>1367072
If I ask nicely, and bring full gear, a nice book about Liechtenauer and a respectful present, would they allow me a steel test? They do gekkiken, so I assume they do steel as well.
>no it is not about what lineage is better, I just want to know how their style matches against mine

>>1367253
Only people I know of in japan who do steel on steel sparring are the habiki gekiken guys, who are mostly associated with toyama ryu.

I have no idea what their reaction would be but I think they would probably refuse you.

>>1367273
for a moment I've read it as hibiki
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fza3e4mGgMw

>>1367329
habiki means a unsharpened blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNTZqON0aPQ

This isnt there best video but the other is at the end of a long gassuku film

>>1367253
Then you are lucky WW2 is far enough because you would have been thrown against a guy who escaped being a kamikaze by a couple of hours.

Frankly, it's super disrespectful, you can try to build bridges without having to go with a freaking steel sparring.
Didn't Clements tried to do that at some point ?

>>1367253
You can bring it as a show and tell and let them try it out if they're curious. No need to try to do any sparring, just try to find things that are different and simillar. Could be fun for them to look at european swords and books.

It would be pretty meaningless to do any sparring since you'd pit two different systems with different rules against each other and no one will become any wiser from it.

>>1367414
I actually did see a match between a habiki gekiken guy and someone with a long sword, came off about even which is impressive considering how much longer the European blade was.

I suspect some would be insulted, but most would be amused or uninterested. Some western koryu groups would be more interested but depending on their rules/seniority they would probably refuse.

>>1367414
There was a thing several years ago, probably almost a decade now where the arma guys made some semi insulting posts looking for a koryu guy to do a armored sparring thing for a television show. basically every koryu on the east and west coast of the americas refused.
Meik Skoss was particularly perturbed and made several derisive remarks on swordforum.

The arma guys for their part seemed to pat themselves on the back and further disparaged the koryu guys as antiquated and not concerned with realism like they are

Wait

Why would the Koryu guys be so opposed to doing some friendly sparring with a completely different school of swordplay? I mean that sounds really interesting

>>1367440
because it wouldn't be friendly. Arma guys didn't tried to make it friendly

>>1367440
Its not completely unheard of, but its rare today for several reasons

in group out group would be one. sparring in group can strengthen the school, but competing with outside groups subjects the school to ciritisms and could result in its techniques becoming common knowledge.

There are also oaths against competing outside the school in many styles because such things led to fights during the edo era

Japan also put restrictions on the duels with wooden weapons in the 60's which pretty much killed inter school competition between the more conservative styles

finally koryu are all about the school and not yourself. you want to keep the schools strong while preserving its essential characteristics. Just because something is interesting, or could benefit individuals does not mean it will benefit the ryu, and ryu reserve the right to restrict such behavior

Do Kendo/Kenjutsu skills like footwork transfer to hema, or are you guys using completely different movements?

>>1367585
Kenjutsu may be similar depending on specific school, but i haven't seen anything in HEMA resembling kendo footwork.

Destreza might have the feet more or less as close as kendo, but it has them at 90º and profiles the body. It's the closest thing i can think of and it's for sidesword/rapier.

>>1367463
Maybe it's a very non-Japanese way to view it but i'd see putting the school to the test as good for the school.

>>1367604
It's good for getting to try fighting something you're not used to but not much else. I remember in my first beginner tournament we had mixed pools and it was just chaotic. I did longsword and was facing people with saber and sword & buckler, since i didn't know how they fought it was really hard to know what approach to take.

It was interesting but i can't really say i learned much about their way of fighting from it in a tournament setting. If you do some slower sparring to feel out the differences then maybe that could be rewarding but mixed pools in tournaments is generally nonsensical unless both fighters are used to fighting that style. If it's the first time then people are going to be unsure and hesitate. You won't be able to draw any conclusions from it.

>>1367604
Some do that, very few publicly talk about such pressure testing, Japanese value tradition after all, but I can never several styles that have pressure tested their material in some form or another.

>>1367463
That sounds gay as fuck.
If school cannot compete with outsiders, it's a bad school and all members should feel bad.

>>1368791
I am sorry but you dont know what your talking about.

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>>1366954
>itto ryu

Oh shit, I didn't know that was a real thing, I thought it was just a Blade of the Immortal thing.

Is the real style also summed up in "whatever works"?

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>>1370173
There are several branches of itto ryu, and no, their philosophy is to dominate the center line with a vertical cut called kirioroshi. They specialize in defecting incoming cuts and cutting the enemy in a single stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzi79pTBQPE

>>1370173
Itto-ryu and its derivative is one of the most important koryu in fact... It was key in the development of kendo and the kenjutsu part of the Butokukai. But no they don't have a "whatever works" approach, it's a classical school. Itto-ryu in BotI is more like a gang than a koryu really.

Btw, Shingyoto-ryu and Mugaï-ryu also exists and are real kenjutsu / iaïjutsu schools.

>>1367585
It depends on the kenjutsu style, some use passing footwork very much like in longsword, some have their own weird style (Maniwa Nen-ryu for instance). You'll find as much similarities as you'll find differences I guess.

>>1370324
>>1370208
>>1370173
>>1367600
>>1367585
Can someone explain to me exactly how kenjutsu works? Why do they move slow? How do you win?

>>1370691
99% of the time when you see kenjutsu you see kata, so nobody wins. They're training a series of movements.

I assume the styles that actually fight will also have non-scripted drills, but i don't think they show them much.

>>1370691
>Why do they move slow?
Because slow is smooth and smooth is fast ? Usually, what you see is kata, and usually, they don't see the point of demonstrating kata fast because there is an audience that need to more or less see what's happening. Keep in mind that in most kata, the actual point of the exercise is not always easily visible, it might be a specific training, but unless you know what's suppose to be done, it might be hard to see the point of the whole thing.

Usually, the styles that do gekkiken don't show it because the main is to get the practitioner better, not to show off.
Since we were talking about Hokushin Itto-ryu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKh5ac4Fk80

Most of the koryu don't care about advertising, they don't actively hunt for new members, they don't care about being the cool kids, they don't care about being able to beat every one in dedlysparring, they just care about preserving the techniques they were passed on, which takes plenty of time already.

Besides, there are plenty of fast kata demonstrations, here's the usual exemple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on98wYpoovU

>How do you win?
You don't "win" in training, you just progress, otherwise, just like in other MA, you whack the other person without them whacking you.

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Since there are talks about japanese stuff, I've been trying to look at specific drawing techniques in HEMA. By that I mean a specific play or advice when your sword (could be another weapon but a sword is more sensible than for instance a dagger at that) is in its scabbard and you're suppose to react quickly to a threat. It could be either with an attack directly from the scabbard, or a particular draw then a riposte of some sort.

I know Fiore has a couple of plays in his sword vs dagger section; Viggiani has an application of his schermo starting from his first guardia (which is sword in the sheath at the hip); Sainct-Didier and Thibault have particular advices about drawing the sword, but not really defending yourself in the same time iirc. Do you know of any others examples ?

>>1370747
so it isn't often so much sparring as it is training?

I'm pleb as fuck here, so I'm probably just misunderstanding the role of the whole art, but wouldn't such things be better honed at higher speeds?

>>1370777
>so it isn't often so much sparring as it is training?
The core of the koryu is kata training, in fact old kenjutsu that do sparring are in the minority and usually, they are the youngest. What you see like 99% of the time is kata and not sparring.

And obviously, you gotta start kata slowly before being able to do it fast in any correct manner. As said, most koryu, when demonstrating, don't show kata at high speed simply because the aim isn't to look flashy but distinctive. Many in the dojo, kata are done faster depending on the student and time, but fast demo are rare. That doesn't mean they can't do it fast.

You have to understand that the general goal of a koryu is vastly different than in a HEMA club or in HEMA in general. It doesn't mean that one is "better" than the other in any ways, just that some of their objectives is totally different and that changes how and why they show their things. Koryu is a lot about preserving techniques passed through the generations, while HEMA is a lot about reconstructing "lost" techniques, that changes quite some things. Now that says nothing about the skill of any of their practitionners obviously.

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>>1370777
public demonstrations are often done slower. But generally the teacher only goes as fast as the student can handle, just enough to push them to get better without overwhelming them

>>1370702
kata can have unscripted elements, especially at higher levels. a single kata can have a number of variations, and teachers can mix in different techniques to further test them

This passage, if its linking right, is a good description of how some schools do it, though each school can have its ownpeculiarities

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>>1370860

forgot link

https://books.google.com/books?id=G0YMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT111&lpg=PT111&dq=rory+miller+on+kata&source=bl&ots=UWc2UmFqn1&sig=32IGo7fiP66l238PiBrovr9iOjE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9--vp7J7LAhVKQSYKHbdNBwwQ6AEISTAH#v=onepage&q=rory%20miller%20on%20kata&f=false

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>gentle reminder that this is not the JMA thread
>please be so kind and post at least a HEMA related pic for every JMA post you make, tvm

I can't quite tell if HEMA is right for me. While the research and reviving aspect does seem intriguing, I'm mostly interested in learning solid swordsmanship, including solid fundamentals such as breathing, training reflexes, footwork and so on

Does hema have skilled instructors when it comes to those fundamentals, or is the movement more focused on the actual swordplay?

>>1371169
Tbh I think there's enough enthusiasts to warrant their own thread, at least for a little while

>>1371199
It really depends on the club, but you might be better off with modern fencing for those fundamentals, despite the lack of much swordsmanship and sometimes weirdass rules.

>>1371169
Sorry it was brought up, and JSA threads dont really last with how dead the sports side of this board is

>>1370761
Could you explain some of those things you've mentioned?

>>1371259
What needs to be explain more ? (genuine question)
I was looking into plays or techniques in HEMA that starts with the sword in the scabbard and when it's drawn to perform any particular blow. I know some authors did have a couple of such techniques in their manuals (Fiore, Viggiani and to some extant Sainct-Didier and Thibault), do you know of any other more ?
Basically, "iaïdo / iaïjutsu" like techniques in HEMA.

>>1371289
Domingo Luis Godinho in Arte de Esgrima has something where you're arguing with someone and pretend to retract and swear on the cross of your sword and smash him in the face with the pommel.

And some other variants with making a cross with your fingers to swear on it and pulling his hat down or poking his eyes then drawing whichever weapon is more convenient (yours or his, dagger or sword) and stabbing him.

Also that section of the book is called "Against treasons".

>>1371169
His the winners arm laying across the blade?

>>1371169
>These sculpted buttocks will be the last thing you see!

>>1371289
>What needs to be explain more ?
Could you explain Viggiani's application of his schermo and Sainct-Didier and Thibault's advice regarding drawing the sword?

>>1371289
Wittenwiler has a single play where you block the wrist of someone who is about to draw his dagger. Unfortunately thats the only play I know from north of the alps, and yes, certain Iaido techniques look cool as fuck
>Sanjuro final scene, that backhand drawcut with half swording

>>1371212
No worries mate, all swordsmen welcome, but please do not completely derail.

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>>1371410
if anyone does have more questions on JSA they can start another thread if they want. or someone could start an asain sword thread which would cover Filipino Chinese, and Japanese, might survive longer that way.

I would like to know of any Hema people do epee at all, I mean it was used in duels

>>1371433
Some smallsword, but for outright epee it might be best to look for classical fencing.

Of course modern fencers who also do HEMA exist, but i don't think i've seen any look into older epee systems.

Are Cold Steel's synthetic wasters good?

Wooden wasters vs synthetic, advantages and disadvantages, go.

>>1371979
Both are shit, get steel.

>>1372113
Can't afford full kit, most I can afford is (maybe) helmet and gloves. With enough time, I can piece some full gear together, but I don't want to wait until then.

>>1371979
Nylon wasters flex, wood is cheaper
>>1371941
Nope, they're made of hard plastic and don't flex

>>1371302
Damn, that's awesome! I didn't looked a lot into spanish and iberian fencing, you made me want to with such a crazy thing. Then again, to have a specific part "against treasons" in your book, that's brilliant, and sensible in that era.

>>1371407
Ok, makes sense, in many iaïjutsu kata there are stuff about restricting the arms or the wrists or directly the weapon of the opponent, or again the opposite, preventing being restricted and then draw and cut (since you're going Kurosawa, such a technique is displayed in Yojimbo, the fight scene were choregraphied by a famous master btw: http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/304171/Yojimbo-Movie-Clip-No-Cure-For-Fools.html). It's no surprise that you would find such technique in HEMA as well, it's really like common sense.
And for Sanjuro, a superb classic scene but also partly unvoluntary - the big stream of blood wasn't prepared and Nakadai was genuinely surprised. Legend-wise, for the preparation, the choreographer told Mifune and Nakadai which move they should do but separately, so they trained both their draw cut without knowing what the other would do. At the shooting of the scene, they let them both stare at each other before signaling they could go and boom, they pull their respective thing, obviously, Mifune's technique was designed to counter Nakadai's...

>>1371358
>>1371358
Sainct-Didier (1573) simply mentions how to conveniently draw the sword, it's suppose to be a compact and gentlemanly way to do so, but there's nothing more than that really, it's a draw sideways and slightly to the back. Thibault (1626) it's the same but the thing is he is drawing a very long rapier, so I guess he thought an extra advice was useful, he raises it vertically and on one leg to give more space for the blade, a bit clowny but well. It's been a while since I checked those two.

For Viggiani (1551), if you don't know, his schermo (a scheme of defense) is a two half-cuts technique in single tempo from a single guard (either Alicorno - his second - or Porta di Ferro stretta - his fifth), the defensive blow (rovescio difensivo) is a mix of a reverse rising cut (rovescio ascendente) and a reverse middle cut (rovescio tondo), the offensive blow is a downward spiraling thrust (punta sopramano). So the application from the scabbard is to pull a large reverse rising cut as you draw (rovescio ascendente intero), deflecting all cuts and thrust as you move slightly to the side, ending in his Alicorno from where you can conveniently throw a thrust (punta sopramano) that end in Porta di Ferro stretta.
This combined technique as been named "universal parry" by Greg Mele and is present in Fiore, dall'Agocchie, Viggiani, Capo Ferro...

>>1371169
>>1370860
>>1370777
>>1370691
>>1371200
>>1371212
Made a thread about asian and japanese weapons stuff if anyone is (still) interested >>1372382.

Has anyone experience with poleaxe? I need help for a play from le jeu de la hache.
[12] Another couverte for swinging blows when you are on guard with the queue. Without moving, you can take it on your demy hache as high as your arms can be extended. And the moment the blow has been received, you can pick up his queue with yours in such a way that he would wish to raise it. And all in one movement push it suddenly forward. And if it does not fly out of his hand, at least you make him stagger so much that you will have time to give him a blow or thrust.

How do I pick his queue with mine?

>>1372359
Don't expect much more from the Spanish text, the rest are more gentlemanly. Also the guy was Portuguese but writing in Spanish for whatever reason.

>>1372482
>Don't expect much more from the Spanish text, the rest are more gentlemanly.
It's because most of a tradition is gentlemanly that this kind of example shines, besides, there's no problem with gentlemanly, to me at least...

>Also the guy was Portuguese but writing in Spanish for whatever reason.
Checking his dates (Arte de Esgrima date from 1599), Portugal was ruled by the spanish crown at that time, from 1580 to 1640. Might be the reason...

What's the sparring matchup that has the longest lasting matches before somebody manages to hit?

>>1372575
Girl vs. Girl

>>1372575
Guy who loves to circle at long range vs guy who loves to retreat?

Way too many hema clubs I see on youtube are way too suicidal

Seems like half the people in hema prefer mutual suicide over actually defending properly

>>1372802
>Seems like half people in hema prefer mutual suicide over actually defending properly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA3trONoi8w

>>1372278
I would think non-flexing would be good, more realistic.

>>1373154
Maybe, but receiving a thrust would be painful and potentially dangerous.

Also who cares abour realism when you're using wood or synthetic, which differ from steel for so many other reasons you'll never be able to call them realistic.

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Already posted on /sp/ and they reffered me to here.
I just started Historical Fencing, does anyone know where I can get a rundown of all the stances like Plow and Ox?

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>>1373207
different masters had different number of stances but here are a few basic ones

>>1373214
Yeah we follow the German one like Talhoffer, Liechtenauer, Ringeck, etc.

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>>1373214
>>1373229
btw I need names with those so I know what they're talking about, do you have any?
Already thanks m8!

>no military sabre clubs nearby

feels bad

>>1373207
http://sonsoru.tumblr.com/post/112753292272/the-primary-guards
>Pflug is not well executed, point should be center and in the oponents face
>Ochs is shown here on the right, but mostly used on the left

>>1371979
Nylon are typically better balanced than the wooden ones. You get a better cross, pommel and grip. And they're typically safer to spar with if you don't have any protective gear. You just need a mask and gloves and then you're good to go. Worst thing that will happen is bruises.

>>1370761
For rapier you just won't see attacks or parries in the drawing tempo as it's too long a weapon. The closest thing I can think of off hand is Capo Ferro's instructions on how to set yourself into guard (he says to step back with your sword foot as you draw to facilitate getting the blade out IIRC, then stepping back with your back foot as you set yourself into the guard) which pretty much result in stepping out of range so that the opponent can't draw and attack before you're ready (he'd have to rush to grapple and/or strike you with a dagger rather than get his own sword out).

>>1370761
I think you need to think about the context and in what situation such advice would be used. Drawing techniques are self defense only, they would not be included in any manuals that have a 'friendly' or 'sportive' background, they would also not be included in manuals that have a 'ritualized' or 'dueling' character. Those techniques are only useful when you get assaulted all of a sudden. And the European weapon of choice for this is the dagger. Now with a dagger it doesn't do you much good to draw first and block then, you want to block first and draw afterwards otherwise you will get ventilated. Hence I think this quick draw techniques are not as common in Europe as they where in Japan. Clear point for them.

>>1373214
>>1373352
Thanks!
What do you think of these guys?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzHTHowwqac

>>1374609
Looks rather good to me. His interpretation of techniques are good, and he also explains that it is an interpretation and not set in stone.
I have slightly different preferences on how to align the cross, but as said, thats a personal thing.

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>>1374626
Yeah I guess that's a personal prefference.
For now I'm looking to practice the basics like stances and footwork with a broom handle.
Thanks!

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>>1374627
>>1374626
Wrong gif.

>>1373352
>>Pflug is not well executed, point should be center and in the oponents face

Man, if he opened up any more it'd be a Hustler shoot.

>>1374080
It's interesting and logical, btw, it doesn't need to be a draw and an attack both in the same tempo, any play were the defender starts weapon sheathed would have my attention for that matter. It's noticeable that stepping back the sword foot while drawing is sometimes done in some iaï kata but usually it's always to strike with a thrust; well it's either to the back or to the side. That you would draw a rapier the same way in an emergency is probably based on the same mechanics, plus it's indeed one of the way to efficiently draw such a long weapon, clearly not the type that was thought for quick action, but then again you don't always choose the time to fight...

>>1374588
That's an obvious but always welcome and necessary remark, I guess the fact that Europe doesn't have walls out of paper made this less of an issue as well... Though I wouldn't be too quick to separate manuals backgrounds like that; many manuals had "friendly competition" parts and more "self-defense" ones simultaneously. Talhoffer and Fiore for instance (iirc), some plays of Fiore and some parts looks more like a ritualized duelling situation, bloody maybe, but organized, and then you have dagger defenses and defending with a stick on a bench while being assaulted by a knife wielder, clearly self-defense. Maybe some manuals have clear-cut background and intention, but that's not the case of all.
About being jumped in the streets, I guess fights with swords, being more gentlemanly stuff, wouldn't usually been done out of surprise but in a more prepared fashion (even though it could be "meet me in an hour"-duels). Japanese didn't really care about that, hell even the iberian missionaries were surprised about how their honor said nothing about surprise killing, betrayals and assassination. Clearly the societal background influence such techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5w2Mh6CyXo

Man, historical sabre looks really elegant

>only historical fencing club nearby is teaching some german school that has uses ugly as fuck forms

>>1375691
I like this, there very good

Where can I find a pdf of I.33 with clear text that's sorted next to the pictures? Only found one and it's barely readable.

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Anyone ever have problems when "regressing" in sword styles?

I've learned a fair amount of backsword/military saber and trying to learn dussack is a pain in the dick, because I feel like there's to many times exposing yourself and it overall feels much more inefficient (which I suppose I can expect since its hundreds of years earlier).

Do just need to git gud, or is this a genuine problem for some?

>>1376572
That kid is or will soon be a legal adult now....fuuuuuuuck

>>1376572
Yep, by now I have trained so many styles that I really have a hard time when I need to do something clean and according to the book.
>sports fencing
>German longsword, half a dozen sources
>langes Messer, Lecküchner
>Dussack, Meyer
>Saber, Christmann
>Rapier/Sidesword, 3-4 different sources

>>1376572
>feels much more inefficient (which I suppose I can expect since its hundreds of years earlier).
no
git gud

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>>1377056
>I really have a hard time when I need to do something clean and according to the book

>>1373204

I've used the cold steel wasters. They're decent. Basically indestructible, and do flex somewhat. Getting stabbed hurts like a bitch, but they do the job.

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anyone else going?

>>1377758
I've always been told they're balanced like a bag of bricks.

>>1377777
And you are right, also the handle is uncomfortable and way too short. But they are cheap and indestructible, so it is good enough for newbie form drills.
Also, nice quints, checked!

>>1377774
Yep, will be there.

>>1377782
competing?
only going to spectate but been told to bring a few synthetics for mat 4

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>>1377787
*equipment's not up to scratch for steel, only have synthetics atm because poor apprentice*

Hey first time here, do most of you learn by going to a school/club or are you self taught?

>>1377787
working, likely gonna be refereeing
>haha, if you ever gonna make a HEMA tournament I volunteer for staff duty, I promise

>>1377792
club

>>1377800
what age did you start? I'm 20 and have alot going on right now but I've always wanted to learn, it seems like something I shouldn't even bother with unless I have a good amount of time to devote to it

>>1377800
should i see if i can sign up for gophering?

>>1377804
i only go a night a week, still better than nothing.

>>1377804
I started fencing at age 7, HEMA I must have been around 30 or so.
Also, this is not about becoming world champion or something, do a sport you like, spend time with like minded people and improve yourself and activate your potential is more important. 20 is an excellent age to start. 2x2h a week will get you far.

>>1377806
Honestly, I am not in the loop, why don't you write them and ask if they can need help? It is not like you will miss any workshops since there are none, and being on the staff can be stressful at times, but you give the community something back and likely make new friends.

>>1377809
>>1377811
thanks alot, hopefully there is a club nearby

>>1377815
any more events this year?

>>1377831
http://feder.org.pl/ifhema-international-cup-2016/
I'm currently not in full training for personal reasons, so competing is out of question, but I got a couple promising students and maybe I can coach them. Theres also nice events in Italy, the Benelux and elsewhere, but I prefer to limit myself to 2-3 HEMA related travels a year.

>>1377815
I've signed up for gophering!

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Anyone try the HEMA Supplies Scholar Buckler?

They look neat, but expensive as far as bucklers go.

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Somewhat meta: Talking about HEMA with friends and family.

Whenever I talk about my hobbies, I usually just say that I fence, since it's technically correct. People are like, "oh, okay."

But on two separate occasions, people have seen my longsword waster, and they say that, "Wow, I guess you LARP".

The gf had an ex who LARPed or re-enacted. So anything that's remotely deviant from sport fencing is LARPing to her. After explaining that the same school that teaches sport fencing teaches longsword fencing. She's all fucking "yeah, whatever, you 'fence' ".

These are people that I care about, really. But I'm literally hiding that I do HEMA from my gf because she's being so damn closed minded.

>tl;dr: making people understand the difference between Larping and HEMA, and Reenacting

Advice?

>>1377996
Why does that even matter? Is your gf's love and attachment to you conditional based on whether you LARP or not? If so, dump her. And consider yourself lucky.

Besides that, I guess you could somehow rope her into coming out for a beginner session (a dare? a bribe? reverse psychology? tell her only guys are successful in hema competition?). Mind blown guaranteed.

>>1378009
Her love isn't conditional on it, it's really just a pride thing for me. For an analogy, if I was a proper chef, and she told everyone that I worked in fast food. Annoying, right?

I like your ideas, though. Even if she's not interested in doing it, there's a nice spectator area in my club, so I could get her to come and watch, at least.

>>1378039
she doesnt sound pleasant, I hope you manage to make her grow into a nicer person. Maybe as the other anon suggested, seeing how you train will help, otherwise you will just have to get used to it. good luck.

>>1377996
>people have seen my longsword waster
It might help if you had a feder. The plastic doesn't give a good first impression.

>>1377996
He couldn't even be bothered to put black mesh over his face to obscure it?
>immersion RUINED

I understand why people think HEMA is like LARP. It's a new sport and people classify it as something the already know. But I really don't get why they keep thinking it even when they get explained what it actually is.
At least in my country most people think it's reenactment instead of LARP, and, being a reenactor too, I'm not that much triggered. I just have to patiently keep explaining the difference between the two things.

>>1378892
That's the last guy the demon ate.

>>1378919
Well for a very broad definition of reenactment it could even fit. Though people generally make a big fuss about not being reenactors for whatever reason.

>>1377996
>>tl;dr: making people understand the difference between Larping and HEMA, and Reenacting
not living in the US could help

>>1378919
>I understand why people think HEMA is like LARP. It's a new sport and people classify it as something the already know.
yeah but LARP isn't a sport.

>>1379056
I know but most people don't because they lack some fundamental informations about both hobbies. They only know both have swords so eveything with sword must be the same.
This is not the problem, when they understand the differences. The problem is some people just don't listen when explained.

Another problem is the people who don't take HEMA seriously because "it won't help in a street fight", "you don't know how the really used to fight", "real sports are played with a ball" and whatever.

>>1378919
where I live is more like "they have a sword so it must be reenactment", its not really that bothersome to explain the difference, but when people don't listen to you it's so annoying. The other day I was on a train and had two longsword wasters with me, a guy asked "are those for reenactment?" I said "no they're for training, we use real swords for reenactment" and he said ok turned around and told a friend "LOOK THAT GIRL HAS SWORDS, FOR REENACTMENT" ffs what do I waste time for? also who the fuck uses all black plastic swords for reenactment??

>>1379104
>also who the fuck uses all black plastic swords for reenactment??
people who reenact 21th century hema trainees

>>1379091
>>1379104
Why does it bother you, objectively seen,swordsmanship is completely useless in the 21st century, so what we do is oddball at best. Nobody has to respect me or think I'm cool just because I like swords and old books. It is enough for me that it makes me happy. If LARP would make me happy I wouldn't give a toss either.

Longsword IS embarassing larp-tier though.
Do actual historical fencing using sabres or rapiers, then you'll be taken seriously.

>>1379116
>Do actual historical fencing using sabres or rapiers
so longswords aren't historical? or using them aren't fencing?

>>1379116
Spot the rapierfag. Must be hard when everybody likes what you don't like.

>>1379122
It's not what the average joe sees as fencing, no.

When they hear historical fencing, most people think sport fencing and classical fencing. Not "I wanna be a knight" swordfags

>>1379111
I'd just like people to get what I'm doing.
Think like it was another sport:
>Oh, a ball, you must be a football player
>I actually play baseball
>yeah whatever
It isn't about being cool or respected, it's just about being understood.

>>1379124
Please negrito, Longsword is good HEMA, it has tons of manuals, is well researched and is by far the most popular discipline of HEMA. Just because you are shite at it doesn't mean you got to diss it.

>>1379124
are you on drugs right now?

>>1379124
>average joe
Well the average joe knows shit anyway. Most people wouldn't know the difference between foil, épée and sabre. Why should we measure how serious something is based on non-knowledgeable and uninterested people ?

>>1379116
What does it mean larp tier? you sound salty

>>1376572
Oh yeah, happens to me all the time

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>>1378479
I notice this too, and I just avoid plastic on principle. Wood, leather, and metal gives a sense of professionalism.

Speaking of which, FUCK YOU PURPLEHEART ARMORY RELEASING YOUR BEAUTIFUL STITCHED LEATHER BASKETS RIGHT AFTER I PURCHASE THE REGULAR BASEBALL LOOKING WAX SHIT FUCK YOU

>>1379104
Grills in HEMA?

>>1379395
Where you from?

>>1379392
I know that feeling bro

>>1379116
I'm >>1377996

Sadly, the school available in my area reserves singlestick/dussack/sabre for after a year or two of longsword.

Sure, longsword is interesting. But sabres were actually used by my country (Burgerland) at some point. Only a few generations ago did the sabre die out, and that's really an appeal to me.

anyone know more about this training weapon?

https://www.thehemashop.com/basket-hilt

>>1379502
Whaaat
Se let our newbies play with dussacks 'cause it's great for making them move their damn legs and it works so good

>>1379665
*we

>>1379665
I find shorter weapons get people out of the straight line a lot better. Dussack should work wonders.

>>1379395
there are two other girls in my club, and at the last tournament I went one of the most skilled fencers was a girl. It sure is a sport that can be perceived as "manly" but I dont think I ever seen a club with absolutely no girls

>>1379695
>w-we're not losers i swear to god

>>1379433
San Antonio, Texas

>>1379695
Huh

>>1379392
They both look shit imo desu senpai
>literally a baseball

>>1381227
sorry but this is not a race to determine who is cooler, I just stated what I know
>>1381411
maybe here it's different, we have a lot of clubs and hema related events, so it's probably more popular

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>>1381435
That surely does not. This is the comparative monstrosity I've had.

>>1381439
Where is "here"?

>>1381468
Italy

>>1381472
I wonder how many other italians post here

>>1381439
I think it's about how it's perceived by the public. In europe it's more of an acknowledged sport than in the US where it still has the "larp" reputation which might discourage a lot of people. But there are lots of girls both in the beginner and advanced class where i am. Lots of good female fencers from scandinavia in general.

So it doesn't really have the "guy's sport" feeling here. It's nerdy but i've never met a woman who has felt left out or out of place in my club.

HEMA has been covered in mainstream press here lately which helps to get the public to understand it.

>>1377996
If you live in North America, you're fucked.

I live in Canada and it's awful here.

>>1377996
You fence. You're a fencer. If anyone tries to give you shit you politely but firmly correct them. It doesn't matter if you use a foil, epee, longsword, saber, or fucking bokken. You're still a fencer.

>>1381489
>US where it still has the "larp" reputation
That's what happens when you want to play dress-ups with your HEMA uniform :^)
>b-but muh Meyer pantaloons
>H-historic footwear
Fuck off
>t. actual-martial artists

>>1382940
Why so resentful? Are you a larpfag in denial?

>>1379609
still interested if anyone has any kind of experience with that kind of synthethic weapon

>>1379039
>Though people generally make a big fuss about not being reenactors for whatever reason.
It's because reenactors try to recreate by "experience in the field" (eg Lindybeige) and HEMAists tend to rage at their retarded wrongness because they always seem to reach exactly the wrong conclusion compared to the treatises, which are the root of HEMA.

Here in Bong, though, increasingly the best reenactors are also doing HEMA because they realize there's something in it. (And many of the HEMA guys have been doing reenactment since forever, of course.)

>>1383562
I haven't seen any reenactors that reach wrong (or any) conclusions about fighting, they're all aware that fighting in period gear with proper technique means people die, so they make it safe enough via rules for the most part.

In viking reenactment it seems some concessions are made in gear to allow for somewhat more violent fighting (leather gloves/forearm/elbow protections which we have no evidence for but could conceivably be made with period tools and methods, lamellar armor on the wrong areas, gambeson, etc) but also some rules, and considering some groups even have people doing it HEMA style (though not in big battles) i think they're well aware of the differences.

Your mileage may vary of course.

>>1383372
Their longswords aren't crap, but very floppy. (Assuming nothing much has changed since they made those I've run into.) The baskethilt may be similar.

Please post in >>>/qa/562689

You don't like wrasslefags? Neither do most of the sane people on this board. Help us convince Hiro to ban them from 4chan.

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>>1385180
The fuck? As far as I'm concerned, /asp/ is the containment board for wrestling. It's practically just that and miscellaneous generals, like this one.

>tfw still waiting for a koning gloves review

>>1385863
Only one i know about: https://youtu.be/8-ZDWRyPnTY

>>1373236
http://www.swordschool.com/wiki/index.php/The_12_guards

Unified Weapons Master competition is out.
Go team HEMA!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOw6Mwl4r18

>>1385934
Pommel smash to the head seems really effective in this game.

>>1385934
It's stick fighting with sword-shaped sticks.

>>1385934
I watched 26 seconds and I am not sure if I can handle the rest.

>>1385934
Hey look, the HEMA guy is wearing SparringGloves.

I guess they didn't throw money at the hand protection yet.

>>1385951
This is what you get when your system can only detect impact but not damage from simulated edges.

>>1385960
Nice eye, didn't catch that.

>>1385934
>years off effort
>countless hours of work
>thousands of your own money
>everyone told you it was stupid
>everyone said to give up
>but you didn't

And you made this :|

>>1386053
Look on the bright side, if the HEMA guys wipe the floor with all the other contestants like this one, we'll get more people interested in HEMA.

>>1386078
If

>>1385934
This is sad sad sad.

It just goes to show when you cover yourself in protection to the point you cant feel pain you WILL move in an unrealistic manner.

What can one learn about bows from HEMA?

>>1386673
You're probably better off finding a shooting club with traditional archery. I don't think anybody has done much research about that so far (in the HEMA community that is).

>>1386673
Interesting question. Anyone has sources?

>>1382940
You realize that most hema folks oppose this too right? We use practical protection, we don't play dress up.

But if you can get a completely undeserved ego boost by feeling that you're better than a strawman then good for you. I'm happy for you.

>>1386673
Nothing. Hema focuses on hand to hand. Some archery and shooting clubs indulge in longbows, muskets, flintlock pistols and such. But if you want to get into ranged weapons then hema is not the right place.

>>1386856
An article about a source about Persian archery:
http://revpubli.unileon.es/ojs/index.php/artesmarciales/article/view/797

>>1386078
He won't though.
In a sport context, sport specific techniques/training and sport rules (which are needed to make it appealing to the audience) win.
It's why an Oly fencer can "beat" a fechtkunt.

>>1387276
I imagine hema would do very well early on, but eventually someone will find something that works better for this than any "historical" marital art.

Most likely this style would be absurd in a real sword fight but will dominate in this game, and the uninformed will say its "better"

>>1387462
Goy Windsor had a post about exactly that.

Basically:
>Pick one starting guard OR finishing move (not both). E.g. posta-breve or "lazy "Vom Tag on the right.
>Now train to use this exclusively against/finish off every conceivable action your opponent makes.
>Try to get them in to you guard/finishing move, even when something else might work from that position.
>When in doubt, disengage and start again.
>Repeat until you win by the bare minimum, or get ahead then run out the clock, or "win"/they're disqualified on a technicality.

Congrats, you've created Olympic Jud-oh I mean Olympic HEMA.

>>1387755
I think he was applying the method of Johan Harmenberg (who won gold in épée in the Olympics once - to prove his point). The initial questions were, Can the person with less reach dominate measure ? (yes), Can the person with the smaller repertoire of techniques impose his own technical game ? (yes), Is it possible to force your opponent to give you the attack you've only trained yourself to counter ? (yes).

It's trick-fencing really (Devon Boorman also wrote something about that); now some authors and historical practical styles did rely on the correct application of a very limited set of techniques (Viggiani for instance), at least in what they wrote in their manuals, so it's not like it's entirely out of place but still...

Was it this Windsor's article ?
http://guywindsor.net/blog/2015/10/how-to-win-tournaments/

>>1387770
>Viggiani for instance
Yeah, but the context of that was more along the lines of "It's Friday, you have a duel on Monday, let's get started..."
>Was it this Windsor's article ?
>http://guywindsor.net/blog/2015/10/how-to-win-tournaments/
Yes.

>>1387778
>Yeah, but the context of that was more along the lines of "It's Friday, you have a duel on Monday, let's get started..."
True, though the goal of his schermo is still roughly "what is the hardest attack to parry", "what is the most complete parry you can make" and "how to join the two together". Lo Schermo is exactly a thought about training one single technique and impose it to the opponent, there are even parts on how to lure your enemy in the actions where he'll be weak to the punta sopramano, it's very deceptive.

Now it's also true that there is much more to Viggiani than his simple "parry roverso tondo - attack punta sopramano", the simple fact that there are more guards than needed for it is an indication of that. And it really wasn't to diss the text, I really like it, and it's in fact a fairly modern one (first half of the 16th century, looks like it was written a generation later); still it kinda falls under the lines of "one general strategy to be safe".

>>1387755
Yeah Olympic judo is a sad case, but that's what happens when a lot of money gets involved.

the combination of the armor which makes people take unrealistic risks and the tag like nature of scoring all of the potential to divorce this from real swordsmanship.

>>1379695
My club has no girls. But we're in NA. I think there are probably more girls doing HEMA in Europe where irony hasn't dissolved the culture into a mush in which everything is "cringe" if you're even slightly sincere about your interests..

>tfw survived my first competition

>>1390263
Did you have fun? Did you do well?

>>1390303

Fun yes. And i'm happy with my performance.

I feel like ive gotten insights into what i need to practice more and such.

>>1390263
Neat. Any surprises?

>>1391111

How close it felt to regular sparring. It all felt very natural after the first match.
Although adrenaline was flowing through my veins for sure.

>>1387778
>Yeah, but the context of that was more along the lines of "It's Friday, you have a duel on Monday, let's get started..."
Sounds like a line from Game of Thrones.

>>1388563
In this weekend tournament in France i think there were 5 participating out of maybe 40 total fighters. Plus i think two members of the organizing club who weren't participating but also do HEMA, lets say 9 in 45 or so.

I'd say it's slowly improving.

>>1398909
20-25% is not so bad for a contact sport.

>>1400332
A bit less since i somehow added the two non-participating women twice, but so far it's the best i've seen.

There was a women specific mixed weapons tournament which might've helped, but AFAIK all of them also took part in the open tournaments.

>>1398909
Tournois chapitre des armes, dimanche, we were 12, had 4 women +one taking photos.

>>1392683
>>1400355
Same guy ?

>>1400631
No, there were several this weekend, two in France that i know of. I was at Villeneuve-Loubet.

>>1400631

There was two in france and one in Sweden. Might've been more. Not the same guy either way

What do you do with hopeless students? Do you persist teaching them until they learn something or just give up and let them do shit?

>>1407630
That depends on whether they actually try to learn.

>>1407634
It isn't always easy to find out. Sometimes people just say they want to learn because this is what you want to hear. What should I think about someone who said he want to learn but doesn't actually do anything he's told to do? Is he stupid or does he not care for lessons, exercises and drills?

>>1407646
Maybe he just wants to hit people with swords. I have some of those in my club.

Or he has some kind of ADHD. Also got one (well, we suspect that's what it is).

>>1407648
>Maybe he just wants to hit people with swords.
I think this is the case. What do, then?

>>1407630
As long as they are nice folks, I keep training them. I just don't have the heart to tell them they are shite, specially not when they are really enthusiastic.

>>1407656
Steel sparring, hard mode, until they reconsider their position.

>>1407646
Some people just are not good at following verbal directions, or copying actions. So you just have to keep working with them until they do it right

Cold Steel is selling their training rondel dagger for 10 bucks instead of their usual 15 during their summer sale.

It's only a five dollar discount, but it'll add up if you're buying like 10 of them for your club.

>>1407664

There's literally nothing wrong with steel sparring as long as they have the proper equipment.

>>1407792
People that are shit at fencing will get a decent pain-feedback, especially when they act like brutes.

>>1407630
>Do you persist teaching them until they learn something or just give up and let them do shit?
If by "do shit" you mean spar, you absolutely do NOT let the hopeless bumblefucks spar under any circumstances. That's the way to get accidents, retard behavior and a bad reputation.

In any serious club, the teacher should clear students to spar before they can do so, and crazy faggots should not be cleared.

>>1407630
What makes you think the student is hopeless?

>>1404025
>>1405886
k.
Heard about this one that the club hosting it is part of a bigger modern fencing club, and that their dudes only fish for stab with few care for anything else.

>>1407811
"decent pain feedback"

Holy shit what a little fucking pansy you are.

>>1408207
Inadequate technique and no progress in any department despite continuous training. Potential dangerous behavior for oneself or the opponent aggravates the situation.
If someone is just hopeless but harmless, no problem, keep on training, you'll never get good, but at least you have fun.

>>1408380
Are you a rapier pussy or something? Steel longsword can hurt like a bitch if you cannot really defense yourself.

>>1408343
Villeneuve-Loubet? The closest i saw to that was a very Olympic fencing style guy fishing for leg hits all the time. Lost to him 4-2 with touches that barely scratched my red dragon leg guards.

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>>1408418
Nah, the open at Paris.

I was on another the next day, and someone did the two of them.

>>1408405
can you give examples of dangerous behaviour?
Have you talked to him about it?

>>1408478
Not being able to control the blade and and being able to stop a strike if needed for example. Or overaggressive behavior as soon as the mask gets down.

And yes, I tell people pretty clear about this. Simple solution, they are barred from sparring with other students, safe for me or other teachers. If this doesn't help then sorry, no place for you here, no need that somebody gets injured just because you are inept.

I've got somewhat the inverse issue. My instructor seems to be really preoccupied with sparring, I feel like we're missing out on a lot of important information and practice. It's like he only wants us there as someone to spar with (regardless of how much we actually know) because the HEMA community here is pretty sparse.

>>1408517
For the blade control I suggest to make him strike at a tire and let him stop the blow before connecting for a set number of times. If he connects reset the counter and make him start from the beginning again.
I don't quite get what exactly you mean by overagressive but try to do breathing exercises with him or tell him he should do something before/during training to calm himself down.

>>1408548
Yo we do that, we try a lot, but some types are just not made for it.

>>1408207
In two years he never did anything right.
He takes every exercise or drill as free sparring and doesn't do the things he's supposed to do.
When he get told to stop fucking it up he just tries to do it right once, and then he goes random again.
When told to slow down and focus on techniques body mechanics, he speeds up.
When he loses, he thinks he needs to speed up more and doesn't listen when told he needs to improve his techniques.
He buys a lot of inadeguate gear without asking for advices, and get mad when he finds out his gear isn't good.
Sometimes he just disappears during warm up or footwork drills.

>>1408535
Ask him to actually teach you something. If he won't, start studying in your own. Attend workshops, if you can, and read books and watch videos and try to understand the concepts and techniques. Ask the community and/or your instructor for insights when stuff is not clear. Try to learn from the original sources when you're good enough to understand them.

>>1410074
What do you mean by "he just disappers"? Does he just walk away to do something else?
Does he really try to whack his partner with full speed even if he has barely any gear on him?
It really sounds like he doesn't take you or the training serious. If he is really as bad as he sounds you should politely inform him that he is welcome to come to whack people with metal rods if that is what he wants from HEMA but if he doesn't concentrate on training technique he should at least concentrate on his partners safety. And by politely I mean politely I do not suggest to tell himto go fuck off.

>>1410190
>If he is really as bad as he sounds you should politely inform him that he is welcome to come to whack people with metal rods if that is what he wants from HEMA but if he doesn't concentrate on training technique he should at least concentrate on his partners safety. And by politely I mean politely I do not suggest to tell himto go fuck off.
Hopeless Guy detected

On the contrary, tell this chimp to fuck off.

>>1410074
The worst part is when they keep making bullshit excuses instead of admitting their mistakes work on their techniques. I had a guy in my beginners group who was maybe 6'3" and all he ever did was rely on brute strength and made vertical cuts every time he could.

If he was fighting against someone a lot shorter than him he could sometimes break through anyways. So he always used his height as an excuse to why his footwork was so bad, it was because he was so much taller than everyone else. Problem is that I'm 6'2" so we're roughly the same height, but he still kept using that excuse with me to explain why he was shuffling his feet with straight legs and had his back hunched forward. Just like your guy he always missed the warmups and footwork exercises because he was "running late" every single time. No desire to improve himself, he just wanted to hit people as hard as he could. Basically zero improvement in the year i was in it. And he had been there longer than me.

On top of it all he has really fancy gear that i believe his parents bought for him. And he was always super smug about how nice gear he had. Problem was that he is too bad to get into the advanced class where he could actually use that gear. So he drags it with him every time to show it off. But we don't use it in the drills we do in the beginner group.

I would definitely consider him a hopeless case. You can't improve if you don't want to improve.

>>1410752
making bullshit excuse IS the core of the problem.

If you don't admit you are shit, you can't have the mentalily to improve.

You have the same height. He has the stuff for sparring. Take some time to BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF HIM.
Mercilessly.
Don't tell him what is wrong.
Just ask him why he failed, and each time he make a bullshit escuse, ask him for another round. Stomp him.

Once you stomped him ennought that he cannot deny it was a proper stomping, just make him admit he is shit.

>>1410747

why so rude?
If he doesn't progess he doesn't progress and once he learns to stop posing a danger to others he may as well stick around if he enjoys it. If he just refuses to listen at all and just keeps doing bullshit I am with you but otherwise I don't see any reason to kick someone out.
Expelling someone from class should really be something reserved for people who are a serious danger and I know too little about this case to suggest this kind of punishment.

>>1410883
i once did this and i swear to god the motherfucker was laughing everytime he got hit and even hurt

>>1410895
Goddamit.

Well, only option would be to just ask him bluntly what he is doing here, as he don't seem to improve or learn anything, and that if he just want to hit people, Bohurt is here, as people are tired of his shits.

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greentext me what they are saying in this pic

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>>1411230
Too much clothes !

>>1408380
>I like to call people names online to look tough
Everybody knows you're a clown

>>1410891
>If he doesn't progess he doesn't progress and once he learns to stop posing a danger to others he may as well stick around if he enjoys it.
If he doesn't learn, that means he doesn't learn. Expecting him to learn to spar safely when he isn't even learning to drill correctly is pretty fuckin' unrealistic.

Besides that, letting brainless dumdums stick around and wave swords badly in sparring drags down your whole class. Not just its reputation because now you're the group with That Guy in it, but if the dude's sparring but never improving, that's so much time wasted for his sparring partners. Unless you WANT your HEMA group to have the reputation and skill level of a preschool, send those guys to BotN or a LARP or some shit.


I'm not saying you should be a hardliner about progression rate or anything, but when someone's just a dumb fuck you can't indulge them.

>>1368953

Except he does. If we were discussing an unarmed style that disallowed cross training or competition, it would be widely ridiculed and rightly so.

Because swords are involved muh honour becomes paramount? Fuck off. What good is learning to use a katana if you aren't willing to accept rapiers, longswords, sabres etc. a) exist, b) work differently to your weapon and c) could be a threat if not taken seriously.

Fucking ludicrous. Self aggrandising, isolationist, egotistical idiocy. You're a fucking moron.

>>1411356
>n-no homo

>>1412039
Not him, but not every school is looking to become the best swordfighting art. Many Japanese schools are like historical preservation societies. The bad things are isolationism like you mentioned and stagnation, good thing is at least there's a living tradition.

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>>1412039

I have no desire to take this thread away from hema again but here goes.


I never talked about cross training, some do allow that others do not, sometimes it depends of how advanced you are. I would never encourage someone to pick up to arts at the same time. Cross training and representing your art in a pubic match are two very different things.

>Because swords are involved muh honour becomes paramount?

Never said that, though if you want to study an art from another culture sometimes you have to play be their rules rather than making shit up based on what you think a fighting art should look like.

>What good is learning to use a katana if you aren't willing to accept rapiers, longswords, sabres etc. a) exist, b) work differently to your weapon and c) could be a threat if not taken seriously.

I certainly never suggested anything like that, but most Japanese sword styles were not created around such rare if ever encounters, not the samurai did not function well when they did come across rapiers and sabers.

Japanese swordsmanship was always cliquish. it was like that in 1500 when most styles were associated with a family or political institution, its like that now. Its one reason why so many of them survived. But it would be a major mistake on your part to assume that the people practicing it are all flops without practical experience or cross training in other arts

>>1412102
true but I am not even talking about those styles

>>1412102

So they want to preserve less efficient fighting styles? Look man, there are always variables in warfare. Ignoring HEMA vs Kenjutsu for a second, Katanas would have come up against all these wild, different weapons from their own culture and adjacent cultures but even ignoring that, there's more than one way to use a katana itself, and if you limit yourself to practicing against that and someone breaks those rules you'll be fucked.

Ignoring that though, there's also the problem of small talent pools. The less people you practice against, the more easily self assured you can become. It's easy to become the baddest motherfucker at your dojo of under 20 members, and insecurity about losing face may well be what keeps you away from attending open sparring nights, going to competitions or cross training.

That's a disservice to yourself. The goal of martial arts should be self improvement, and there's no reason you couldn't take your Kenjutsu and use it to fight a fencer in any of the western traditions and win without modifying your technique if you were good enough. It's a mindset thing. You shouldn't be afraid to implement what you devote so much time to practicing and perfecting.

I guess I think you can conserve ancient techniques and also use them to kick ass in a modern context. If they worked then they'll work now.

>>1412220
>So they want to preserve less efficient fighting styles?

>what is I.33

>>1412183

>I would never encourage someone to pick up to arts at the same time

Well yeah. I personally think "cross training" is best done in a systematic approach at a single school. Like how there are MMA schools that have wrestling, ground fighting and kickboxing classes separately, but also classes for combining them. Doing the three as isolated things will end up with disparate skillsets that are not focused on the same goal. Weapon work is no different. You need a central focus.

>Never said that, though if you want to study an art from another culture sometimes you have to play be their rules rather than making shit up based on what you think a fighting art should look like.

I'm terrible at this, that's why I do arts that don't impose rules I disagree with on me. It's why I gave up on tkd, and I think that was a really important decision and I've applied it to everything. If a school takes an isolationist approach now, that's such a big red flag to me, I won't attend there.

>Cross training and representing your art in a pubic match are two very different things.

100% agreed, but I'm talking about friendliness and openness. If you, as a group of fencers, won't have anything to do with another group of fencers in your local area, that's dumb. Amongst martial arts schools made up of functioning adults and not petulant children, training nights with other schools, and exchanges of knowledge are not at all uncommon. It's really an almost cult like thinking that prevails in some martial arts that prevents that, and it's only rooted in insecurity. Before you even think about cross training, or competing, if your art is so closed off you can't even be pleasant to other people who have a very similar goal to yours (improvement), then you're training with emotionally stunted people. At some point you'll have to choose between toeing the line and stagnating or continuing to improve.

>>1412240
(cont)
>not the samurai did not function well when they did come across rapiers and sabers.
I’m sure they did fine. If you hit someone cleanly with a katana they’ll go down. It’s more similar to western swordwork than it is dissimilar. The Japanese close mindedness you mentioned may have worked against them though. I’m not sure.
>Japanese swordsmanship was always cliquish. it was like that in 1500 when most styles were associated with a family or political institution, its like that now. Its one reason why so many of them survived.
Advantages and disadvantages. HEMA in it’s current for is young compared to Japanese MA right now. It’s hard to say where it will go. It’s a hell of a lot more open
>But it would be a major mistake on your part to assume that the people practicing it are all flops without practical experience or cross training in other arts
I don’t. I’d like to learn some Japanese swordsmanship. I wish it wasn’t so closed off and dogmatic. I think if they put in even a tiny bit of effort into widening the scopes of their interest they’d show most HEMA practitioners up very quickly. Where we’re reconstructing, they have an unbroken tradition, so all the little nuances of positioning and body coordination were not lost. We could learn from them. They’d gain openness and aliveness and fresh perspectives for their art in return too. It could only be mutually beneficial.
Put it this way. I’ve done a few martial arts and there’s a point where you’re at a new school, and the instructor is having you do the basics, and he looks at you and says “you’ve done something before, haven’t you?”. There’s only two ways he ever says that. Either he’s interested in what it was, or he wants to block it out and “correct” you.
If more Japanese places where the first, I’d probably be doing Japanese swordsmanship right now.

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>>1412220
not him, Im this guy for reference
>>1412183

>So they want to preserve less efficient fighting styles?

Not at all, rather we want to protect a living linage from being changed to suit modern conditions which did not apply when people wore swords.

That being said there are styles that have changed things when they found something that worked better.

There is a divide between those schools which are more like historical social clubs and those that train for efficiency, they are organized and often look the same in demonstrations but the spirit of training is different.

>Ignoring that though, there's also the problem of small talent pools

That can be a problem, but most koryu are only concerned with passing things on to a handful of truly dedicated students.

I know one outspoken teacher who will actually turn people away or ask students to leave if they prove unwilling or unable to learn the art.

This is because koryu are generally passed down student to teacher, and can be a very personal experience. They were often set up with a small group in mind from the get go.

And before you question this model, I would point out the many incredible swordsmen, both then and now who were brought up through this method

> It's a mindset thing.

Exactly, most of these guys have no desire to win tournaments or prove how bad ass they are, or modify their techniques for a fantasy fight with a European knight. If they are going to compete with someone its purely for self improvement or to pressure test, and the results will likely never be heard of outside their dojo

Because its not about ego, its about learning a martial art, passed down from when people used swords and other weapons to lethal effect, and keeping that style strong and effective. It is not about you.

>>1412229

I dunno man, it's not my field of study, but like anything else, to understand it better you should test it against different variables. Not just itself.

Fuck insecurity caused comfort zone bullshit.

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>>1412241

>I don’t. I’d like to learn some Japanese swordsmanship. I wish it wasn’t so closed off and dogmatic.

Well there are styles of Japanese swordsmanship that are more open, and that would probably welcome of hema guy into their ranks. Its just that Japanese swordsmanship, particularly the combative kind is kind of rare in the west

>>1412229
1.33 is a style defined by the lack of complex hand protection on swords. It's only 'less effective' because it is a style based around different tech, which brings different variables. The evolution of the complex,basket-hilt made the style redundant/less effective. For its day it was more than adequate, and elements of the style that were effective remained in later sword and buckler systems.

This is the value of the 'historical' part of HEMA - context.

>>1412229
I.33 master race, I challenge you to duel with sharps and no protections to prove my point.

>>1412241
>>1412240
You seem to think that the goal of koryu and of HEMA is the same, though it's not, mainly because of that whole living lineage thing.

Were you in relation with a school of old kenjutsu where you could spot some isolationnist behaviour, because many schools are in relation with other martial arts and fencing schools. Hell there are inter-koryu relations to begin with and you should know that even to one japanese school, another japanese school may look pretty weird, so it's not really like they stick together.

Koryu school usually are open, but they won't look for you, and usually, they'll need to know what you can do for them. You can get in and say "teach me stuff", cause they'll ask "what will you bring to us", the relationship goes both way.

And as>>1412255 says, many people in Hema are in touch with kenjutsu people, the guy on the picture, Ellis Amdur is a friend of Greg Mele and Guy Windsor for instance.

>>1412025
I see your point and agree that he would probably be better off in another contact sport or martial art but I am just a bit hesitant to suggest kicking someone out who got financially involved in his hobby without having seen the case myself.

>>1412332
Just because someone spent money it doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants.
Clubs have a purpose and rules, if anyone wants to stay in a club he have to agree with the club on what to do and how to do it. Discussing rules is fine as long as a new agreement is found. If he don't like the way of the club and can't find a new agreement, then he have to go. It's sad but this is how to avoid to screw up all the club work.

>>1412303
not the anon you're replying to, but
>they'll ask "what will you bring to us"
This is interesting, what do they mean with this? I can't think of anything a student could offer a teacher with so much more experience. I'm too used to the "I give you money you teach me stuff" mindset

>>1412332
>I am just a bit hesitant to suggest kicking someone out who got financially involved in his hobby
So what, rich guys with poor impulse control get a free pass? Fuggouddahere, this isn't Warhammer 40K.

A sperg's a sperg, if he can't act right he gets nothing. If he blew a ton of money on kit he can't use in my club, that's not my problem and not my fault, cry me a fucking river.

>>1412633
I second this, and it's not like he's going to lose his gear. If he bought it he can still use it. But somewhere else. He can find other people like himself and just beat on each other if that's what they want.

>>1412025
>Besides that, letting brainless dumdums stick around and wave swords badly in sparring drags down your whole class. Not just its reputation because now you're the group with That Guy in it, but if the dude's sparring but never improving, that's so much time wasted for his sparring partners.

This is the main reason to try to get rid of guys like that. Every time you have That Guy in the class it's going to drag everyone else down. Everyone will try to avoid being paired up with him for drills, but someone will have to take the bullet and babysit his stupid ass. Something that mostly means trying not to get injured by him while learning nothing. It's a bad experience for everyone involved.

A lot of people find it hard to take time off to go to training because of work etc, so when they do go they want to learn as much as they can, not wrangle some retard and possibly get injured in the process. It could discourage people from showing up to practice.

>>1412332
The club should have rules of conduct, if someone doesn't follow the rules then it's well within your rights to refuse them as long as you feel their presence is negative and especially if it poses a danger to other members.

>>1412647
>A lot of people find it hard to take time off to go to training because of work etc, so when they do go they want to learn as much as they can, not wrangle some retard and possibly get injured in the process. It could discourage people from showing up to practice.
Thisssssssss

We have complaints enough in our group when people feel the class is unfocused, if we let That Guy waste everybody's time we'd lose people in droves. In practice every asshole you tolerate is 3-5 decent people you lose.

>>1412247
>living linage
There's a loss of information when you pass down what you know for generations and the thing is not put on test. It happens in every field.
For sure it is better to have a living linage than reviving a lost art, but sometimes I feel like this living linage thing is a bit overrated.

>>1412338
>>1412633
>>1412647
I think you guys are misinterpreting what I am trying to say.
I suggest to be nice and to try to fix the issue without unnecessary conflict.
I say that because without seeing how bad it actually is I do not feel like I am in a position to suggest harsh punishment.

you guys argue:"If someone is disruptive he should be kicked."
And I do agree with that.
My point is that one should ask himself:"Is he really that disruptive or is there a method to solve this problem in a way everyone is content with.

>>1412899
martial artists in living lineages are aware of this, and try to balance preservation with things like innovation and pressure testing.

http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_CreativityandChange.htm

>>1412956
Of course kicking someone out is the last option. We're just assuming everything else has already been tried with That Guy.

I'm thinking about buying one of those singlehand Albion blades from their moat sales and having my blacksmith club member finishing it up.

What kind of hilt should I have?

I'm definitely planning on getting finger rings and I'm fond of side rings, so those might get on there too. Any other suggestions? I don't want it to get too complex since I'm going to use it with both hands and don't want to limit it to strictly left or strictly right.

>>1413342
What will you be training with it?

>>1413851
Mainly Meyer, but I've started doing some Bolognese stuff.

>>1412963
>http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_CreativityandChange.htm
This is a good thing. I never heard about before.

>>1366936

Can we talk about UWM?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOw6Mwl4r18
I cant wait till this takes off. It is gonna be the UFC but for weapon based martial arts.

>>1414216
Hi, Skal. Yes, we talked about it like a week ago, but maybe other people want to add something to it.

>>1414229
>Skal
I'm actually not though I do like his videos. I knew about UWM way before he talked about it. I just saw they finally uploaded a real match.

What smiths (Europe) can you recommend for custom sharps? I want to get into cutting and need two blades, likely high some XVIII (b or c) and a one handed sword or more likely a Messer.

>>1414320
I don't know if he does sharps, but I heard good things about jiri krondak

>>1414216
I'm not excited for it. The fighting in it was pretty bad senpai. There isn't a good reason for the simulation armor. A fencing environment is an excellent method of testing techniques and applying a realistic environment.

It's a problem looking for a solution.

>>1414545
You mean a solution looking for a problem?

>>1414216
Never going to take off, because it has the problem fencing has as a spectator sport, but worse:

It's boring to watch. Especially as they figure out how the system works, and they just start flailing.

>>1414320
how much money are you willign to drop? because there are some serious gaps between some smiths

>>1414426
A bit on the heavy side, but solid stuff.

Speaking of heavy, are all saber unbalanced and heavy ? the few I played with were very tiring to use.

>>1414602
I'd say in the ballpark of 1500€ for the longsword and about half that for the one handed blade, scabbards not included. Proper weights, balance and physics and heat treatment are top priority, aesthetics and historical correctness are desirable but only second prio,

>>1414628
Cavalry sabers are all front heavy by design, Infantry sabers are usually much lighter and better balanced. Fingerfucked a Swiss M1842 infantry saber and a police saber, both are very controllable featherweights compared to my M1896/2 cavalry saber.

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Any tips on how a saber fencer might be able to get past this kendo guard here?
I've been cross-discipline fighting with a kendo friend of mine with my singlestick and I seem to have trouble landing his anywhere vital.

>>1414426
Nope, his stuff is overweight and you can tell that he is not a fencer, they just don't feel right, at least the 3 blades of his I tried didn't.

So far I boiled it down to:
Ensifer
Szymon Chlebowski
Peter Regenyei
and Lukas Mästle Gör (who is unfortunately way out of my budget)
All those guys are not only bladesmiths but also very capable fencers, and I trust them that they know how a sword should feel in the hand.
If anyone knows another smith/fencer, please feel free to add.

>>1414216
It looks absolutely atrocious. I hope it vanishes real quick.

>>1414810
Go for the legs m8. I did Kendo for quite a few years and it's a discipline where you never hit below the waist. Also, the shoulders are very vulnerable.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Kendo we're taught to block with the "flat" of the blade. Idea being that if you used the sharp, your blade would chip. That means that their actual vertical blocks are going to be really weak, because blocking with the flat means they get shit for leverage.

Also take advantage of us Kendoka's extreme lack of defensive mindset.

That's all I can think of for now.

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>>1414810
Keep training.

>>1412956
>My point is that one should ask himself:"Is he really that disruptive or is there a method to solve this problem in a way everyone is content with.
The premise was that:
>he can't learn to drill right, or learn from drilling
>he seems to just want to hit people with a blunt sword
>but he bought a ton of kit
That says gigantic oaf to me, not "a solution everyone can enjoy".

>>1414320
If you can afford the money and waiting time I hear Danelli's doing sharps now. If you can afford *even more* money and possibly an even longer wait as well I guess Peter Johnson's the guy to go to.

>>1414810
Feint a cut to the outside with a lift of the foot as though to lunge, then as he goes to meet the blade, extend in the lunge for real with the step going diagonally offline, and place a cut to the inside —arm or chest according as you can reach.

OR,

Place a high snap cut to the head, slightly diagonally such that your hilt and/or the strong of the blade control his weak.

OR,

Beat his sword with your strong, then lunge in and place a thrust to the chest.

OR,

Gain his blade to the inside, that is, in carte; if he does nothing, lunge and thrust with opposition to the inside, or if he reacts to push you aside, yield with the pressure and cut outside to his right wrist/forearm.


All these to be executed from tierce.

>>1414216
>Wushu

dropped

What's the best manual to start Longsword from?

>>1415080
I don't know very much about where to start from Germany.
But the Getty manuscript from Fiore's Flower of Battle was good for my group to start from. There is a lot of supplementary content on Fiore over YouTube. So you can see how other clubs have interpreted the plays.
There are good books to read from as well.

We supplemented the abstract concepts of fencing from George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense. Fiore notably doesn't cover much about distance management, timing or tempo. So we made up for that by consulting another manuscript.

>>1414969
Yeah wushu is damned silly.

>>1366936
TURN UP FOR WHAT

>>1414810
>train singlestick
>Kendo-brah using essentially Medium Guard
>"Derp how do I in to two handed vs one hurp..."
Read the FUCKING PRIMARY SOURCES!

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>>1415093
>George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense.
>Longsword
mfw
fyi >>1415080 start with Fiore. More accessible then fechtkunts.

>>1415255
>Read the FUCKING PRIMARY SOURCES!
Explain?
Am I meant to look for some sailors with cutlass' v rohnin or something?

>>1415255
No need to be rude.

>>1415080
Manciolino

>>1415080
Either von Danzig or Meyer. The former gives a good introduction to the early German longsword school, the later is the most complete manual and the pinnacle of the late German school.

>>1415258
Well, what would you recommend for the theory aspects of fencing? Silver discusses timing, tempo and distance pretty clearly. And it's not like the concepts are radically different in any fighting system. It's good to have them in the mindset of a person from the middle ages, however.
Please tell me something that discusses fencing theory that's closer to Fiore's contemporary.

>>1414799
then stefan roth in germany may be your man. had the pleasure to cut with one of his swords, and it was the best cutting experience i had so far. you can find him on his homepage seelenschmiede dot de

https://youtu.be/xe4Yk1Dw_IQ

We /larp/ now!

>>1415959
40 minutes of nothing. I forgot when was the last time I enjoy Matt's video.

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>>1416073
I remember

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>>1415940
Stefan Roth is nice, but I thought he is way way outa the 1500€ limit I got?