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Fate Zero is the best Fate work to date, why do people get so

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Fate Zero is the best Fate work to date, why do people get so mad about that fact? because Nasu didn't write it? lol
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Their waifu is from another installment.
>>
Type-Moon as a whole is shite.
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>>159718857
>best Fate work
Yeah, it is the only passable Fate work after all.
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>>159718857

Some autists just are mad that secondaries can finally appreciate their super secret club visual novel because it finally got a good anime.
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>>159718857
>lol
>>>/out/
>>
>Fate
>good
>no porn
Pick 2.
>>
>>159718857
>muh urobuchi
You'll get over it when you're older than 14.
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The anime itself is great, the secondary fanbase of F/Z is extremely cancerous. Ok, we get it, you ONLY like dark and edgy stories. Stop whining about being able to fuck King Arthur in her pussy already.
>>
sadly , yes.
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>>159718857
It's shit
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>>159725133
What a big boy you are. Mommy must be so proud of you.
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>>159718857
Because its too mature for them. They need their stupid waifus and idealistic garbage MC to keep them interested. People hate what they dont understand.
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>>159725426
It's true. Thanks anon, that made me feel a bit better.
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>>159718857
3/10
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FSN as a VN is really bad, the MC and 2 of the heroines, Saber and Sakura, are godawful.
Rin should have been the MC
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>>159727988
FSN is the best VN
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>>159727988
>Rin should have been the MC
That I would have to agree on. FSN would be 70% better had she been the MC and Shioru didn't exist.

>>159728040
That would be Umineko anon.
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>>159718857
/a/nons get mad about it because Zero is the most easily accessed Fate entry and a lot of its meaning is lost without reading the original F/SN VN.
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What's wrong with Fate/Extra and Extella?
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>>159718857

I prefered UBW, to be honest. We all know the Kiritsugu and Kotomine scenes were 10/10, but that doesn't excuse the awful Rider/Waver storyline and Saber's complete non importance.

Not to mention Caster was fucking crutch.
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>>159729389
Extra and Extra CCC are good titles with very compelling and interesting antagonists. The issue with the former is that it's a grindfest, the issue with the latter is that it's not localized.
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>>159729460
>doesn't excuse the awful Rider/Waver storyline and Saber's complete non importance.

explain
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>>159718857
>Fate Zero is the best Fate work to date
No it wasn't.

>why do people get so mad
Because Zerofags tend to be really obnoxious. You yourself are doing an excellent job of demonstrating this.
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>>159718857
It's just a prelude to FSN. Nasu and Takeuchi were also heavily involved with the story, as they must approve every Fate-related work.
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I liked ubw but Zero is better by milles the constant debate between kiritsugu and saber about idealism vs realism made it pretty interesting

I liked shirou but compared to kiritsugu he is pretty bland, bets thing about ubw rin for sure
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>>159725173
To be fair, Type-Moon used to be dark and edgy.
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>>159728040
>>159727988
>Fate route
Rider vs Saber
>UBW
Winter Forest
Lance of sure hit, Shield of no loss
「Emiya」
"Do you want to see whose blade cuts deeper?"
>HF
Every single time Ilya is on screen
Every single time Kotomine is on screen
The entire last few hours of Heaven's Feel, including:
Kotomine blowing Sakura the fuck out
Nine Lives Blade Works
Sparks Liner High
Sakura blowing Zouken the fuck out
Rin blowing Sakura the fuck out again
Kotomine and Shirou beating the shit out of each other
Die Lorelie
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>>159729681
It was a mix. It starts off pretty light hearted and gets heavier and darker as the story progresses. Zero is dark and heavy from the get-go with Waver+Rider being the sole source of light-hearted humor. Well, Iris was pretty funny too but the fact that she's going to die soon kinda detracts from that.
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>>159729875
So there are viewers of F/Z who complain that the Nasuverse isn't always dark and heavy?

Shouldn't they just enjoy other Urobuchi stories instead of Nasu stuff?
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GR: HEY! UFOTABLE! C'MERE YOU!

UFO: Y-yes chef?

GR: WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?!

GR: I-it's our adaptation of Fate/other night's Heaven's Feel chef...

GR: Heaven's Feel... 9206 pages, 37508 lines and 275774 words. Did you remember to cook it to 6 movies?

UFO: W-we thought it'd be better if we shortened it down to a movie chef.

https://youtu.be/SFtLvkqHIds

GR: A movie?! A FUCKING 2 HOUR MOVIE FOR Illya's route and Sakura's route?!

UFO: W-we thought it'd be better to trim the fat off the story chef.

GR: Oh bloody fucking hell! It needed less fat trimmed off than Lindsay fucking Lohan! WHAT ABOUT SHIROU's, ILYA's, SHINJI's, SAKURA's AND RIN'S CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! HOW ARE YOU GONNA PROPERLY ADAPT THAT IN ONE FUCKING MOVIE?!

UFO: W-we decided to show more scenes of the other secondary characters to make fans happy.

GR: OH MY GOD! 86 THIS FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT! GET OUT!
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>>159729734
?
A lot of those scenes are boring, and before HF gets good there's a ton of boring shit, most of HF is.
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>>159730019
But it's going to be three movies?
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>>159718857
>>159725489
>Those readers who thought Fate/stay night “should have more than blood, tears and tragic endings”, this is for you! This is the true ‘Heaven’s Feel’, with the battle for survival as its essence!
>This is Emiya Kiritsugu’s other side that was never mentioned until now and unknown by others.
>This is the fourth Heaven’s Feel that’s never been completely described until now.
>Be them the magi on the stage or their Servants; they are all boss level characters, and between them a cruel and merciless battle of elimination will be conducted.

Those readers who thought Fate/stay night “should have more than blood, tears and tragic endings”, this is for you!
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>>159729941
No, they rather bitch about F/SN focusing on teenagers and being erotic.
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>>159730073
wat
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>>159730095
What's wrong with anime fans, lads? Do they not have a brain in their heads?
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>>159725173

Pretty much- most people who were in the fandom pre-Zero anime like Zero, what they hate are the people who got into the fandom with Zero and are either ignorant of or outright shit on the other stuff.
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>>159730019
>illya character development
lol
>Sakura's character development
????????????
Shirou's character development is "nah, fuck the ideals I upheld for my whole life, I'm Sakura's hero now" with barely any though about it, they can adapt that like in 3 minutes.
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>>159730111
tl;dr

If you thought Fate/stay night should have had more blood, tears and tragic endings then read Fate/zero.
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What the fuck was his problem?

Also zero is better because there is no king arthur falling in love with an autistic japanese teenager.
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>>159718857
4chan hipsters salty that F/Z is good enough on it's own to be popular among normalfags
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>>159730185
>>159730243
Back when our only worry was when FHA and Mahoyo would have a translation patch..
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>>159730198
That's not what it says though, read carefully.
It says that if you found FSN lacking, read the superior FZ.
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loli adventures > zero > TOHSAKA'S ANUS
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>>159730282
The last 5 episodes of F/Z make no sense if you haven't played/watched F/SN
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I unironically enjoyed Fate/Zero. I thought it was COOOOOOL
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>>159725076
>Fate
>good
That was surprisingly easy.
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>>159730053
>>159730095
>>159730196
HF is the only route the real Kiritsugu is brought up as important (like all his circumstances, his nature, his family, his actions); the other routes mention Shirou's false vision of him. Hell, one of the bad endings involve Shirou becoming Kiritsugu II by making the wrong choice just to make this more obvious (all over HF is like "are you going to be like Kiritsugu or not?" via Illya and Kotomine). Not to mention that, by a narrative standpoint, the other two routes don't resolve Shirou Emiya's issues. FSN progresses with every single route: the presentation of the character (Fate), deeper study of what makes the protagonist thick (UBW), and finally resolve the said issues in the climax (HF).

It's even in the Tiger Dojo. Question routes (Fate, UBW), answer route (HF). HF is the one that resolves Emiya Kiritsugu's dilemna by successfully giving his heir the life Kiritsugu actually dreamed of, deep inside. It's a generational story. That's how the three families issues are also resolved in HF as well.

Now Saber's side is resolved in Fate.
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>>159718857
You can't be serious
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Does the original Fate: FSN, FHA and FZ hold up? Why, or why not?
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>>159730486
HF fixes Shirou's mental issues and replaces them with a physical one. It's pretty much a zero sum.

>"Well, I'm no longer hung up on trying to fulfill my dad's autistic chuuni dream and while ignoring what makes me happy but I lost a year of my life, am currently a soul that's piloting a flesh mech, my magic circuit is all fucked up and if I don't constantly fuck Sakura, I'll turn back into a flower.
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>>159730196
>"nah, fuck the ideals I upheld for my whole life
more like fuck the ideals I have not gone to any lengths to protect my whole life.
I'm pretty sure the shitty plot of UBW was meant to make this scene feel heavier but all it did is prove Shirou is a retarded contrarian who doubles down when proven wrong.
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Is there anything worse than a spergout by a fatefag when someone simply mentions the fact that zero is the best?
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>>159718857
Can I watch fate zero without having watched anything type moon related beforehand?
I want to watch it because these 2 seem like a fun duo to watch.
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>>159730951
You can.

You should watch F/SN and UBW (or play F/SN and F/HA) beforehand though.
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>>159718857
Best fate
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>>159731042
Okay thanks.
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>>159730951
As someone who watched Fate Zero first, yes you can do it but some parts towards the end won't make any sense as you haven't seen F/SN.
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I wish that I could understand why people like the Fate series... it's so boring
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>>159718857
this is true

>>159730951
dont listen to >>159731042 f/sn and ubw are trash that will sour your initial reception of f/z. f/z is so much better it's not even funny. Plus, the ufotable ubw was made as a sequel (even if f/z was written as a prequel) to f/z so there's literally no reason to watch it first
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>>159730951
If you really want to you can, here's a few things you should know going in.

>Matou Zouken is not actually a vampire, he's an amalgamation of insects
>Kotomine is unironically 100% pure evil
>Sakura will not be saved
>The Holy Grail is a scam
>Tohsaka Rin will please old men for money when she grows up
>Saber deserves the bullying and at the same time she doesn't
>There is nothing shameful about Gilgamesh's nude body
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>>159731123
>f/sn and ubw are trash that will sour your initial reception of f/z. f/z is so much better it's not even funny.

This is why everyone hates Zerofags
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>>159730756
eeh, I recently replayed the game in Japanese, the RN re-release, and it's not that good, too much boring SoL, there's literal date scenes and reading Shirou's PoV is torture. it's too long and the only good parts end up being the fighting parts.
>>
>>159731123
FZ does not and is not meant to stand on its own. It's literally a companion piece to FSN. It's a predetermined tragic conclusion in work styled after greek tragedy theatrical genre. It's also a conclusion the writer and the narrative expects the reader/viewer to know from beginning because it is a prequel meant to be seen after the main works, with viewer being in on the joke that most of the characters will fail or die due to their own folly and stupid decisions, which is the same most of greek tragedy plays were set up(audience would know the characters are doomed to fail as greek plays were adaptations of well known myths, however the road the play takes leading to that was what delivers enjoyment).
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>>159730951
read F/SN then watch F/Z

Just fyi: The two stories spoil the living shit out of each other. My normalfag friends who watched F/Z hate UBW(probably because they hate highschool anime), and the one that watched UBW first hated F/Z.
>>
>>159731265
name one redeeming aspect of f/sn. ubw's one redeeming aspect is that it was made by ufotable.

>>159731303
and yet it works perfectly fine on its own. just because you think it wasn't meant to be viewed as its own work doesn't mean shit. There's literally nothing in f/z that you need to know about beforehand by watching f/sn.

>>159731226
none of these plot points are critical to enjoying f/z. Knowing beforehand would just ruin the experience.


delusional vn fags
>>
>>159731303

F/Z was written to stand on its own without expecting the reader to know about Stay Night, it says literally in the book, and it explains stuff that were already explained in Stay Night.
You don't need to read FSN in order to read/watch and enjoy FZ at all.
>>
>>159731371
>and yet it works perfectly fine on its own
Not really? Kerry is typical any means necessary antihero who meets a typical tragic end because his methods and goals are questionable and he puts himself into situation that spells certain doom.

However what elevates him a bit is that he is basically opposite of Shirou's decisions. By instead being "someone Shirou would not want to ever become" Kiritsugu gains his depth as a character beyond action hero stereotypes.

Kariya serves same purpose except unlike the idea of "taking different paths" that Kerry is based around, Kariya and Shinji is about history repeating itself unable to learn from the past.
>>
>>159731371
I don't need to justify the vn, F/Z wouldn't even exist without it.
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>>159730761
>am currently a soul that's piloting a flesh mech,

Rin is bad at explaining things, the end result of the conversation is that Shirou can take cold medicines and get sick like everyone else, so the fact that he is inhabiting a vessel doesn't matter since it's the same.

And people get hung up on HF because they forget things like Shirou thinking about abandoning the battle in the Fate route to run with Seiba, or that he pretty much was about to sell out Seiba for Taiga in UBW, the latter should have told you that he wouldn't just give up on Sakura in HF, since he says over and over in all routes that she and Taiga are family to him.

Besides, the real meat of the plot in HF is that the antagonists want you to have Sakura take the fall so they can laugh at you over her corpse. Any fool who doesn't see that is basically deluded.
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>>159731274
She have a reason to go in date with Shirou the same reason that Shirou go in date with Saber. Rin saw Archer past and how Shirou is fucked up with all his bullshit she knows that he is not fine mentaly and this serve also her character developement.

You just wanted action instead of deep characters - go watch the anime then. The VN is not for you.
>>
Fate/Zero anime motivated people to play through Fate/stay night
>>
The best part of Fate is the porn.
>>
>>159731274
>>159731311
>>159731371
I like F/Z more because it isn't like this. It's fast paced, events progress rapidly and it keeps your attention. F/SN is more about Shirou and Shirou's journey of growth as a human being while F/Z is more about the Holy Grail War itself. That's what I wanted to see.
>>
>>159731485
It's not the same, he actually needs drill Sakura for pussy mana or he won't be able to pilot his flesh mech anymore. Granted, he chose her over the world so it may not seem that big a deal but he's effectively just one of her familiars like Rider.
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>>159731635
What a sad end for Shirou. Really HF is the worst end for everyone but Wormslut.
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>>159731536
Holy shit read some fucking English, and how is it my fault that Nasu can't write SoL and the game is mostly boring shit? if I wanted deep characters I can go read WA2 or something, not a fucking chuunige like FSN.
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>>159731696
>Nasu can't write SoL and the game is mostly boring shit?

Explain
>>
Urobuchi is a much better writer than Nasu, it's not shameful that he can write a better Fate story.
>>
>>159731696
He's right though. The whole reason Rin took Shirou on that date was because she was frustrated by his martyr complex. He talked about how he didn't find joy in anything really in life. It's a key part of Shirou's character. He's someone who initially only finds happiness in helping others.

Rin wanted to have him experience happiness for himself. Make him experience fun, and he does have fun, but he regrets it and feels he doesn't deserve it.

It's part of his growth, her growth, and the growth of their relationship. The step forward in her coming to understand him, the step forward in him coming to feel something other than being just a machine.
>>
>>159731794
So why does Sakura never do anything like that? She never seems to make any effort to try and help him, instead expecting to be helped.
>>
Imagine.
Fate written by an actual competent writer.
>>
>>159731794
>the step forward in him coming to feel something other than being just a machine.

That reminds me, in the VN, whenever he was experiencing some serious magic related trauma, his thoughts would seem uncannily robotic. Then there's the scene where he rejects Saber's desire for lunch and pretends to be a robot and she wacks him so hard we get a fake tiger dojo where Taiga and Illya turn him into a machine.

Is Shirou actually a human?
>>
>>159718857
>lol
>durr zero is the best fate
Kill yourself.
>>
>>159731953
>She never seems to make any effort to try and help him

She's been cooking and cleaning for him for the past year and a half. If you want to know why she doesn't realize he's got brain problem, it's because she's so much more fucked up by comparison that he seems perfectly normal to her.
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>>159731792
>DUDE SUFFERING LMAO with zero nuance or depth
>good writing
zerobabs are delusional, also most likely newfags
>>
>>159732026
hes' right though
>>
>>159718857FSN is shit because it doesn't do anything interesting with the concept of the holy grail war. Half the participants don't even have a real wish for the grail and those that do have boring or retarded ones. The fights are shit too, there was nothing tactical about them and they were full of asspulls.
>>
>>159732185
Read the VN. Fights in the source material were portrayed more of a split-second mind game between characters than something flashy. Ufotable should have tried to adapt the tactical aspect, instead didn't bother and just made shitty explosion fests. Even as spectacle they don't work because the choreography and CGI look like shit.
>>
>>159732026
>>159732063
>>159732158
I started with FSN but I didn't care much for the series until I read Zero, don't assume everyone is a shounen-baby who loves haremshit and asspulls. The concept behind FSN was interesting but I detested that shit, Zero and Strange Fake is more like I wanted it to be
>>
>>159732239
I read the vn, but only the fate route. Yeah, the first few fights had something going for them but later it devolved into "hurr I pull caliburn from my ass and kill you 9 times with one swing".
>>
>>159731274
>and reading Shirou's PoV is torture.
Agreed. I literally wanted to punch my screen far too many times, whilst playing. He's one of the most insufferable MCs I've ever seen. God knows how anybody could tolerate this piece of shit. Thank fuckin God there's bad ends I loved seeing Shirou meet horrible ends.
>>
>>159732580
Any examples that made you want to punch the screen?
>>
>Nasu: I told Aniplex's producer that I wanted the Fate/Zero novels turned into an anime. It was a good suggestion. Many anime fans want there to be a lot of cute bishoujo characters in the work, and while they work hard to meet those needs, Iwakami, an important producer at Aniplex, wasn't satisfied just by doing that. I suggested that he tackle Fate/Zero, a dark and serious story full of raw emotion. He had the resolve, and that's how they ended up adapting Fate/Zero.

Nasu literally implied FSN was nothing but a bishoujo series (aka waifubait) that wouldn't have a wide appeal to be animated, so he pushed for Zero adaptation first. How does it feel that even Nasu shits on FSN?
>>
>>159731274
>>159732580
What's wrong with Shirou Emiya?
>>
>>159732580
I'm guessing you never got past the Fate route. Yeah, in the Fate route he's basically a dumb teen but he man's the fuck up in UBW.
>>
>>159732685
You mean HF, right?
>>
>>159718857
>Fate Zero is the best Fate work to date
True.
>because Nasu didn't write it?
I dont think so, its just vn nostalgia or self insert autism.
>lol
This is why your thread gone to shit newfriend, lurk 2 years before posting next time.
>>
>>159732619
And his original idea was pretty much an otomege. It's all otaku pandering anyway.
>>
>>159732619
it's an erotic VN, anyone who doesn't think waifus are a core part of it are delusional. And there is nothing wrong with that.
>>
>>159732619
How new are you? It's common knowledge in TM fandom that Nasu hates all of his older stuff.
>>
>>159732580
>>159732619
Fate/stay night is written from Shirou's point of view, but Fate/Zero is drawn from many different points of view.

Uro: True. Fate/stay night was originally conceptualized as a bishojo game, so the very individual theme of "romance" was placed at the core. It had to be written from Shirou's point of view. So then I thought, I have this really powerful core idea of all these Eiyuu (heroic spirits) engaged in a Battle Royale, so why not draw their story from multiple point of views? That's why I tried to work more main characters into Fate/Zero other than simply Kiritsugu and Kirei.

Nasu: I had no other choice but to make Fate/stay night the way I did for that bishojo game format. That was one of the reasons why I once said to Urobuchi, "I don't think I can make bishojo games anymore." The more you pour both what the author wants to draw and romance elements that will excite the users into a work, the more distant they get from each other... that was my dilemma. Trying to force them together would only warp the work. Then, at the same time, Urobuchi-san decided to stop focusing on bishojo games and distance himself from the genre. He created an exciting, self-indulgent Macaraoni-esque revenge opera called Zoku Satsuriku no Django, (*10) and I was just like... waaaah!
>>
>>159732744
>Django
TRANSLATION FUCKING WHEN
>>
>>159732736
It has some good waifus though.
>>
>>159732611
The one that comes out of the top of my head first is when Saber tells him off for being too reckless and he needs to stand back and let her do the fighting, then he starts sulking and getting angry because its a girl that's fighting for him.
>>
>>159731964
So Fate?
>>
>>159732619
>>159732715
That's his explanation of why FSN wasn't animated first, because both the producer and he wanted a show with more substance than cute girls.

Nasu also said later nobody needs to play or read FSN beforehand and can start with Zero. All your muh secondary was encouraged by Nasu himself.
>>
>>159732713
UBW comes before HF. Yeah, he's pretty manly in HF but in UBW he's both manly and competent. And that's the only route you see that combination for him.
>>
>Takeuchi: Many anime studios wanted to make Fate/Zero into an anime, but as far as actually doing that, I couldn't feel very excited about the idea. It was a story that came into being out of the love and respect that Urobuchi-san had for Fate/stay night, and was designed to deepen the enjoyment a reader could get out of Fate. Adapting it into an anime might mean stepping on that love, and I didn't want to make something that didn't capture the feeling of the original novels.

Takeuchi is literally /ourguy/ while Nasu the hack only cares about selling Fate. By Aniplex/Ufotable, they were rebooting Fate and decided to go with Zero by Nasu suggestion because they didn't WANT the Franchise appeal to be a mere waifubait series. Basically, if they had done FSN before Zero by UFO, it would have been like that.
>>
>>159732830
And in UBW, he tells Saber he'll deal with Gilgamesh and she accepts it and believes in him. That contrast was done purposefully.
>>
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>>159732830
In the Fate route he sees pic related, which triggers his PTSD. Saying she's a girl is just an excuse to get her away from fights so that he can self-sacrifice instead.

He does the same thing with Archer in UBW route - which shows that gender had nothing to do with it.
>>
>>159732830
Shirou doesn't like to see people killing each other
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>>159731311
>My normalfag friends who watched F/Z hate UBW
Since when can normalfags be Fatefags? Or are we reserving the Fatefag moniker for those poor souls who read the VN?
>>
>>159718857
I found the characters more engaging than FSN.
>>
>>159733109
Fate is as entry level as SAO.
>>
>>159733109
>shirou takes saber on a date to teach her how to love life
>they almost die by the end of it thanks to surprise gold man
>>
>>159733109
>those poor souls who read the VN?
I want my 10 hours back.
>>
>>159733193
>Fate is as entry level as SAO.
The average normalfag that watches anime (since when the fuck do normalfags watch anime?) doesn't even know what a VN is.
>>
>>159733227
I put in 5 days
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Nasu: In addition to the original game, there's a fan disk and many other items. Maybe that's intimidating to a beginner. Setting that aside for a moment, I want people to see the anime version of Zero. Even without knowing the story of Fate/stay night, you'll get pulled into the story of Fate/Zero. While Zero is a part of the Fate universe, I think the anime version of Zero is good enough to stand on its own as a superlative work. Please check out Zero.
>>
>>159731975
>mfw I thought Shirou's thoughts were perfectly phrased as to how I would feel (and I have felt) when going through a major trauma
Am I actually a human?
>>
Considering the framework that Urobutchi was doing, could it have had any different of a tone without ruining it? You had to set up
>Kerry as someone who only talked to Saber 3 times and was a failure of his ideal
>Matous business with Sakura and their family issues. Family dysfunction between the siblings and Zouken being a shitter.
>Kirei murdering a Tohsaka
>Manjew being Manjew
I'd only blame Urobutcher if he were doing a work like Apo or Extra is where there isn't much of a framework beyond Holy Grail War.
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>>159733287
>120 hours
>>
>>159733227
>>159733196
>>159733193
Sieg, Jeanne and Astolfo take over. Aka discount Shirou, Saber and Rin. It's funny how the haremshit eaters call FZ chuuni when FSN is the ultimate chuuni fantasy. FZ punishes everyone who were chuuni retards and gave them bad ends, while FSN praises Shirou's fucking chuuni aspirations.
>>
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>>159733257
I would put it at half of what SAO is. Daily reminder that pic related exists and makes 5 digits (sometimes 6) a day everyday in America.
>>
>>159733257
Ofc they do we are in 2017 dude wake up, anime, manga, vn and ln are common for entry level normies too.
>>
>>159733472
What, why is Astolfo Rin?
>>
>>159733412
>>159733227
You finished FSN, FHA, Tsukihime, KT, MB and CCC right anon?
>>
>>159733042
>so that he can self-sacrifice instead.
And that's the problem. Why does he even that that kind of personality? Why does he keep on insisting that he doesn't deserve any happiness because everybody else died in the fire? Its weird. My cousin was in a car accident when they were a child, they were the only survivor yet they don't think that they don't deserve to be happy and they should exist solely to help others. There is something clearly wrong with Shirou in the head.
>>159733196
>shirou takes saber on a date to teach her how to love life.
Another huge issue I have with Shirou. He tries to teach Saber that she should live as an ordinary girl, which she refuses at first which pisses him off, yet in UBW Toksaka tries to do the same to him and he literally tells her to piss off. I mean what a fuckin hypocrite, he had no right to tell Saber how to live her life when he has the same fuckin problem.
>>
>>159733509
How could I have possibly read all that shit in just 10 hours.
>>
What's wrong with Sieg and Shirou?
>>
Fate/Zero was a mistake.
>>
>>159733537
>There is something clearly wrong with Shirou in the head.
This is explicitly the point, retard
>>
>>159733686
I don't particularly like Shirou but at least he was the established MC, whereas Sieg is a literal self-insert for people who want to fuck Jeanne and/or Astolfo.
>>
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>>159733360
- Zero is a failed retelling of the happenings as described in the VN. As we know, Kiritsugu was the absolute utilitarian. Him joining the HGW, he would sacrifice anything for result, for the absolute utilitarian ideal, saving everyone, meaning anyone would be sacrificed for that end. So when he does things like evacuating people before setting off a bomb, when he always kills people you are given a reason to hate, but never a single one you might find a reason to like, then I just think they went too soft on him to preserve the image of a hero.

- Fate route Saber has great character progression and caratherization. FZ Saber is a fucking human toilet for everyone to shit on.

- Urobuchi tried to follow too many different characters/plot threads in the first half; in particular, too much of the plot is dictated by Caster's action, and Caster is a totally uninteresting character who is better at being comic relief than a serious threat.

- The banquet of kings was utterly ridiculous and the only thing it did was pretend that the guy whose definition of "king" was "winner of popularity contest among warriors" had anything to discuss with characters who actually had anything to do with ruling. It was a clumsy attempt for Urobuchi to pretend Iskander was one of the "kings" and that he had any plan or vision whatsoever beyond doing whatever he wanted and hoping other people would post-hoc make it a good thing. Gilgamesh and Arturia actually argue against each others' vision of what a king does in FSN whereas the banquet's only resolution is Iskander going "well I was more popular so I win."
>>
>>159733713
Okay but why did you respond to me?
>>
>>159733729
All honest Type Moon fans agree with Nasu, instead of trying to be a BL contrarian, like you.

Zero > FSN.
>>
>>159731562
No, UBW made people watch Zero, and then read the VN.
>>
>>159733781
This. Zero was shit. Maybe one day we'll get a real 4th HGW written by Nasu.
>>
>>159729460
>Saber's complete non importance
Wait, what? Her character arc is definitely important?
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>>159731303
Agreed. It's especially ironic because one of the themes of Fate/Zero is immaturity.

Kiritsugu and Saber are constantly described as man-children with insane and unachievable ideals. Kotomine chases him for most of the story trying to discover something about himself, almost a coming-of-age story. Waver is immature, and Rider is the king of "Fuck it, do whatever". Ryuunosuke is a kid with Downs' finger-painting in childrens' blood, as is Caster. Lancer and Hot Wheels have child-like ideas of what warfare is supposed to be like. Child-like jealousy leads Kariya to summon Berserker. Tokiomi is rather boringly mature, but he's killed by the childish Gilgamesh.

The entire war has about as much maturity in it as a bunch of kids throwing rocks at each other. Hundreds are killed because a bunch of man-babies got together and pitched a shitfit over a magic wishing device that they ultimately couldn't have in the first place. That's such a central theme to the story, it boggles my mind that people could miss it.
>>
>>159733848
>>159733781
>Fate route Saber has great character progression and caratherization.
This pasta is ridiculous also stop samefagging.
>>
>>159734009
>>159734024
Where's your argument?
>>
>>159732239
>saber vs rider
>caster vs archer
>berserker vs gilgamesh
>lancer vs archer
>rider vs assassin
>split-second
>mind game
>>
>>159730596
Oh man now you made me watch Einzbern Consultation again
>>
>>159734024
Saber in her life was pretty much a female version of Kiritsugu, having sacrificed entire villages and cities for greater good of winning her wars. Fate route should show us her flaws how much of a toll her life had on her and how outright nonsensical, ,short-sighted and stupid her goal of her wanting the grail is, because she wants the grail to run away from consequences of her actions.

"Chivalry" or "Honor" are not the defining traits of Saber. Saber is an interesting character because behind that exterior she built for herself, there IS a person. Fate route explores it, while Zero uses it as an excuse to have a "chivalrous" character for Urobuchi to rant on so Memeskandar can look better.
>>
>>159733781
This is terminological inexactitude.
>>
>>159731696
>fucking chuunige like FSN
So you literally answered your own question? People don't actually think Fate is good, but it's fun, and that's all that matters
>>
Why do you guys nitpick Fate series so much?
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>>159732974
>Takeuchi is literally /ourguy/
Do people just now realize this?
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>>159734074
King Arthur falling for some random tennager autist, losing to a teacher when she have precognition, losing to assasin then fight again and win with ease. randomly sodomized by caster, the King of knights going to a date with a tennager autist, and the list goes on. Where is your great character progression and caratherization there?
>>
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>>159734022
>Child-like jealousy leads Kariya to summon Berserker.

Whoa, whoa whoa, hold on there. Kariya did all that shit to save his unfortunate niece from becoming a wormslut. He had mature reasons for doing what he did but the worms did fuck him up pretty bad so he began to lose his mind.
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>>159734341
Because they're oppressors that need to be put in their place.
>>
>>159734363
See >>159734172

Also nice shitpost. Saber's love for Shirou took an entire route to develop and mainly stems from how they both essentially believe the same thing and can point out the flaws in the other's beliefs whilst failing to acknowledge their own.
>>
>>159734363
Don't forget than King Arthur is a little girl so going on dates and falling in love with boys is not that farfetched
>>
>>159734391
>muh tragic hero
Fuck you Butcher. Also Kariya was naive to think he could save wormslut anyways.
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>>159734514
>Also Kariya was naive to think he could save wormslut anyways.

How much are you enjoying being the age of 15?
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>>159734500
>King Arthur is a little girl
Every day I marvel at the genius that it took to come up with this brilliant idea
>>
>>159734363
As a British citizen, I find it preposterous that one of our mightiest kings would end up falling in love with an autistic Japanese ginger high-school student. This is an insult to my country and I demand an apology from Nasu.
>>
>>159734494
>an "entire" route
>only a few weeks of in-universe time
>>
>>159734588
How much are you enjoying not having reading comprehension? Kariya is literally a fucking magus drop-out while Zouken is the head of the family. It's his stupid romanticism of being a "knight in shining armour" that leads to his downfall ala Urobutcher.
>>
>>159734673
And an entire decade of being metaphysically bound together.
>>
>>159734647
>British
Nice try Muhamed. King Arthur would be a proud Welshman anyways.
>>
What would happen if Kerry summoned F/SN Archer?
>>
>>159734673
16 days to be specific
>>
>>159734690
Or maybe he just loves his niece so much that he'd do anything to save her from a fate worse than death? You have to be a dumb kid if you can't see why he'd do what he did for her. I'd do the same in his situation.
>>
>>159718857

shit's edgy
>>
>>159734758
Archer would show Sola-Ul the bone of his sword.
>>
>>159734784
But the thing is he thought he'd be able to do it. It's to know you'll fail but try for the sake of it because miracles do exist, but it's another to be deluded and expect to succeed.
>>
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>>159734829
Has anyone ever told you that you have mindset of a loser?
>>
>>159734690
>It's his stupid romanticism of being a "knight in shining armour" that leads to his downfall ala Urobutcher.
Yeah its stupid when someone like Kariya does it but its A-okay when it's Shirou.
>>
>>159734494
Spouting nonsense and quoting some one else with more nonsense. F/SN is writted like a fucking pile of shit and Nasu himself said so, one example of this is the fact that the Holy Grail War is a World Wide War yet 3 fucking Masters were 3 kids in the fucking same school and 2 of them are inept mages while the other is just an apprentice. Now deny me fucking faggot.
>>
>>159731635
>It's not the same, he actually needs drill Sakura for pussy mana or he won't be able to pilot his flesh mech anymore.

That wasn't said. It only said if Sakura wasn't there to help him, he would go back to what he was. We don't clearly know what that means, but it's never implied that he would stop functioning, otherwise she would never allow him to leave her side at all, and she is shown being a busy girl outside Shirou with training with her shishou in magecraft.
>>
>>159734923
I never said that? Also yes it is also fucking stupid when it's Shirou, which he even comes to recognize (in UBW and HF anyways)
>>
>>159731597
> F/Z is more about the Holy Grail War itself
The VN gives more info on the War, its background, and true purpose than Zero does though.
>>
>>159734951
Also what the fuck was Zouken doing in Fate and UBW, taking a nap?
>>
>>159718857
Zero is good but FSN as a whole is better
>>
>>159734979
Let me guess, you played the censored version?
>>
>>159734951
Nigga if you want actual good storytelling, go read a fucking book. No one pretends F/SN is objectively good, but it can be pretty fun.
>>
>>159725076
>good
>no porn
>>
>>159735006
Yeah but that isn't until HF which by that point you would have spent 40 hours already on the VN. Zero does the job and its much faster to get to the point.
>>
>>159735011
>Tsukihime - Near Side
Arc, Ciel, Satsuki (cut)
>Tsukihime - Far Side
Akiha, Hisui, Kohaku
>Fate/Stay Night
Saber and Rin
>Fate/Other Night
Sakura and Illyasviel (combined)
>>
>>159735109
>Sakura and Illyasviel (combined)
Damn shame. Nasu should've just cut Sakura and made the entire thing an Ilya route.
>>
>>159735011
He was just a observing, he was planning on getting Sakura pregnant and using her spawn for the next war.
>>
>>159733491
Maybe its because I live in rural Texas but I've only heard anime mentioned twice in public, ever.
>>
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>>159734951
The Grail wasn't made fair. It has a bias by design. The Grail will always pick one representative each of the 3 families who made it. It's not random. The three mage families even designed after preference who it should pick beyond themselves.

The masters are young because of Kiritsugu's action causing the next HGW to start early.

Read the VN
>>
>>159735211
Try LA or California
>>
>>159735108
>Zero doesn't cover any of this
>it does the job
wut
>>
>>159735108
The final third of Zero literally makes no sense without VN. Heck without Tsukihime/Kara no Kyoukai you won't even get the full extent of Kiritsugu's backstory.
>>
>>159734758
I think you mean Archer's Master, Tokiomi? I think EMIYA is a bit smarter than Gil is and would start sniping Masters at the docks from 4km away. How would Kayneth, Kerry and Waver have countered getting a broken phantasm Hrunting to the face? That alone is more than half the enemy Masters dead. All that would be left is having Kirei deal with Lancelot by sending out Assassins to do a long drawn out fight where Kariya eventually dies due to mana burnout. Then you have Gilles who without Gigantic Horror only has demon fodder that only is threatening by numbers. EMIYA recovers for a few days and then starts to hunt down Gilles I guess.
>>
>>159735006
UBW was the odd one out in this regard
>>
Zero reminds me of FSN if you put it through Hollywood execs
>>
>>159735357
No I mean Emiya summoned as a Saber
>>
>>159735070
It was fun, that guys was just getting in my nerves pretending that Fate is masterfully written.
>>159735239
I wont take the bait more anon, if you believe so F/SN is a masterpiece and F/Zero is garbage.
>>
>>159735323
I haven't gotten into Tsukihime yet. What does Kiritsugu have to do with it?
>>
>>159735455
The whole vampire outbreak part.
>>
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There's a reason Nasu stated that Shirou as a character doesn't actually grow. He doesn't change nor does he learn, he simply comes to terms with things he already knows. Every "big reveal" he does about his own character is about things he is aware of already, but tries not to think about.

I'm not sure if it's just dumbass Zero kiddies or what, but anybody who thinks Kiritsugu is the most mature of the two completely missed the point of both characters. Shirou begins, right from the get-go fully aware of the impossibility of his ideal. The screenshot is from early Fate route. He's not just aware of the difficulty, he's aware of the inherent contradiction: a world where everyone is saved is, for the most part, logically impossible. Even with near omnipotent powers, you cannot preserve both the attacker and the victim just as they are, because success for one side implies failure for the other.

Kiritsugu was seriously going for the Grail to attain a perfect world. He lied to himself into not accepting the idiotic contradiction and thought such a thing could really exist. It's such a dumb idea that Rin points it out offhand to both Archer and Shirou early on, and neither does anything other than casually nod because it's not news to them either. Kiritsugu's obsessive with pragmatism to the point of needless cruelty was his idiotic overcompensation for the fact that he never managed to get rid of his childish nature or fully accept reality. He actually, up to the end, thought his dream was something that could exist in reality if he just got his hands on a big enough power.

Shirou never cared for any of that. He understood the contradiction right from the beginning. The worst Kiritsugu says here were something he only accepted at the very end of his life, but Shirou grasps them perfectly from the start. There's no naivety in Shirou.
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>>159735455
Go read Tsuki now and lament at the fact that we will not get another cute vampire date within the next century
>>
>>159734829
He could have had a chance if Zouken didn't sabotage him by giving him Shitsalot.
>>
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>>159735529
Shirou's desire is not to save people or achieve a perfect world. That's what he faces when he fights Archer, and the misunderstanding everyone else has of him. He was reduced to a blank slate, and once he had lost everything, he saw Kiritsugu's happy face when he saved him.

That's the single thing he wants for himself, not to save people, but "to be someone who saves people." It's the action he cares about first of all, the result is a bonus. He thinks being one who tries to save others is beautiful in and of itself, because he was struck by the concept of it when Kriitsugu saved him.

That's why he can pursue a futile course of action, because the course of action is in itself what he is after, regardless of a result.

tl;dr Anybody who thinks Shirou believes he can save everyone needs to get better at reading. The whole point of him commiserating with Kotomine at the end of HF is that he realized they were both capable of pursuing a goal they fully understood to be 100% impossible.
>>
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>>159734435
>>
>>159735066

The reason he bangs Sakura is because she needs to let out the magical energy. Her training and maintaining Rider don't expel enough as it constantly collects in her body outside of her will.

Sakura says they do it too much, but she has a tendency to be overly negative about herself. Couples banging on holidays for a week straight isn't uncommon, and by the time of the epilogue, Shirou had just recently stabilized with the body. They tell you that things had only just recently slowed down for them.
>>
>>159734951
Calm down ESL-kun.

>Holy Grail War is a World Wide War

No it isn't. It's a ritual to punch a hole to the root that become a competition when the three families couldn't figure out how to split the prize. Ideally it's them recruiting 4 suckers as cannon fodder then fighting each other while keeping it as under wraps as possible. I really don't know how you came to that conclusion

>3 fucking Masters were 3 kids
So? Kerry's adopted son and each of the three families' latest descendants. How is them participating in any way a flaw? And if you really want me to go down this route, Zero also had Uryu and Waver and they're barely past highschool age.

>2 of them are inept mages while the other is just an apprentice.

Again, so? Zero had Uryu, Waver, and Kotomine who sucked at magecraft, Kariya who was a shitty impromptu magus that could barely walk, and Kiritsugu who denounced magecraft. How does either negatively affect the plot?

>Now deny me fucking faggot.

denied
>>
>>159735540
The fuck are you talking about, Lancelot is great, it's just that he got summoned as BASAKA. Also, Lancelot would've been able to beat Saber simply by means of mindfuck.
>>
>>159735109
illya gets an anime only fsn route.

how does it go?
>>
>>159735011
Same thing in Zero; biding his time making a suitable heir to fight for him. He was already prepared to wait 60 years when it just so happened the 5th came too early. He sprung into action in HF cause he met Shirou and realized his cards are actually really good this time around, using him to manipulate Sakura to become the vessel over Illya
>>
>>159735150
>>159735800
Heaven's Feel, coming soon!
>>
At the end of HF, what was the point of Shirou not getting his body back and Sakura and Rin having to find him a new body to use? I get what happened, but I don't see what significance that has to anything. Like nothing would have been different if what Ilya did simply worked and he got a normal body. You get the same happy ending.
>>
If I've only seen the Fate anime, will Heaven's Feel make sense?
>>
>>159735632
Right and Sakura needs to help him or else he'd go back to what he was before (it was implied that Ilya stuck his soul in a fucking flower kek). Rin also says that he's kinda like a familiar and his magic circuit is busted. What do familiars need to maintain their form? They need mana. What does Sakura have a lot of that she needs to get rid of? Mana. How has mana transference worked between different people in all three routes? Sex. The other way is with the Holy Grail but that's a special situation. You put it all together and you realize Shiro needs to fuck Sakura to maintain his form or else he'll turn back into a flower.
>>
>>159735882
You might actually want to watch Fate/Zero and Ufotable's Unlimited Blade Works before Heaven's Feel drops.
>>
>>159735882
No because you must complete Stay Night (Fate/UBW) before traversing to the other night (HF).
>>
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>20-fucking-17
>there are people on /a/ who have still not read FSN
>>
>>159735963
That's what I mean, will the Heaven's Feel movies make sense after watching F/Z and UBW. I just really like Sakura's character design and the damsel in distress plotline.
>>
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>>159735403
Once Hollywood's done with capeshit they'll move on to Japshit. They're already started with GITS, Death Note, and Akira. It's only a matter of time

I hate most of the choices in this image but I'd love to see Bale and Atkinson as young Kotomine and Caster
>>
>>159735540
>Lancelot
>bad
>Beating Gil(whom was amped by a Tohsaka Master) in a Dogfight
>Nearly kills Artoria in 11 seconds with his real NP, Arondight
If Kariya had used a Command Seal for mana for even a moment then Saber would have been pasted. Kariya would recover for a few days then do the same shit against Kirei nerfed Gilgamesh. It would only take a D- NP to take Gil's head off and swinging Arondight around for 11 seconds + 2 CS of mana would make Lancelot's A++ Sword able to block GoB shit and when Gilgamesh tries to swing Ea? Too bad, Ea has a charge time longer than Excaliblast and a A++ Sword is already proven to be enough to go through Gil's armor.

TL;DR if Lancelot had even a slightly better Master he would have cleaned the floor with the 4th War.
>>
>>159734758
He'd probably kill the guy on the spot for giving him his ideals.
>>
>>159736025
Fate/Zero gives you a lot of insight into Sakura's past and UBW gives you insight into the relationship between Rin's Archer and Emiya Shirou.
>>
>>159736046
>Gil was fucking around, as usual
>Arthuria was too busy having PTSD to fight properly
Go back to /fgo/ Melvin
>>
>>159736025
Everything you do is equally wrong and will equally make HF less enjoyable, other than reading the VN. So unless you are willing to do that, it doesn't matter what you do.
>>
>>159736025
Yes. If anything Heaven's Feel will make the other parts make more sense.
>>
>>159718857
I agree. I really enjoyed the fact that most of the main characters in zero are adults. It's nice to see something not centered around annoying high school kids.
>>
>>159736025
>I just really like Sakura's character design and the damsel in distress plotline.
I hate you already
>>
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>>159736114
>>
>>159735648
>Holy Grail War is a World Wide War
Magi bloodlines are from different countries.
>3 fucking Masters were 3 kids
The fact that this 3 kids were going to the same school is the worst part of it.
>2 of them are inept mages while the other is just an apprentice.
At least Zero has Tokiomi and Hot wheels as competent mages, also Rin holding back Caster was stupid in F/SN.
>>
>>159736025
Part 1 - Fate
Part 2 - UBW
Part 3 - Heaven's Feel
Prequel - F/Z
Sequel - F/HA
>>
>>159736046
Lancelot is shit man. Literally 0 confirmed kills until Butcher shoehorned in one for him in FGO.
>>
>>159736186
The three mage families all live in Fuyuki.
>>
>>159736046
>Would have died if Tokiomi didn't recall Gil immediately
>Would have died if the blow from Gordius Wheel wasn't slightly off
>Would have died if Cthulhu was taken into IH just a few seconds later where he would have promptly crashed and been devoured.
>Would have died if Kotomine didn't revive Kariya for his own pleasures
> Would have died if Saber wasn't distracted by the real Rider and tracked him down (Kariya didn't get the powerup worm and Lance's under Command Spell to not obsess over Saber)

That's 5 instances where he narrowly avoids death on luck.
>>
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>>159736186
>Tokiomi
>Keyneth
>competent
>>
>>159736230
>>159736260
If Lancelot was with Ilya, he would have slayed.
>>
>>159736312
>Illya
>using a Servant who isn't the strongest in the world
>>
>>159736312
Illya summoning Lancelot would be a direct downgrade from Heracles
>>
>>159736361
>Illya
>Not using someone who is unrivaled within an era, especially the cream of the crop era.
>>
>>159736236
True, but the fact that all the masters and servants were in the same city stills bugs me, even the teacher was in that school.
>>
>>159735878
His original body was fucked up beyond repair due to overuse of the arm, so he needed a new one.
>>
>>159736399
>using someone who is only unrivaled in 1 era when you can use someone who is unrivaled in all eras
Also, Lancelot would have performed horrible in FSN.
>>
>>159736186
>competent mages

Kayneth was such a fucking idiot.
>summon a Servant so shit the only halfway realistic way to win is to keep a low profile and engage in hit-n-run tactics while hoping Lady Luck smiles on you
>fucking draw everyone to his position and let him show off his entire skill set
>waste a command seal on making him attack Saber despite the situation calling for a retreat
>after revealing everything worth knowing about your team's capabilities, turtle up in the most high-profile hotel with no plan on how to proceed or even an idea of what the enemy combatants can do, showing your hand and gaining absolutely nothing for it but still act cocky
>walk in blind and alone into the lair of a man known as the Magus Killer and promptly get your shit pushed in
And so on. Every time he does anything it just makes everything worse, and just about every single time it would have been easy to see in advance that his chosen course of action was moronic.

Tokiomi thought he could play chessmaster while hiding in the basement and that his extremely arrogant servant and the obviously evil man would do all the work for him. I seriously believe the "Always Elegant" poomf the Tohsakas carry with them fooled half the anime-only audience into thinking he was legitimately intelligent.
>>
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ITT
>>
>>159736312
And Kayneth would have cleaned house if he summoned Solomon. What's your point?
>>
>>159736484
He would have rekt Saber at least simply by virtue of PTSD
>>
>>159736574
Keyneth would find a way to fuck up with an Servant.
>>
>>159736406
Three Masters had come from outside the city and were all killed. Kirei killed Bazett to steal Cu, Medea killed Atomic Gatorade as well as the potential Master of Assassin.

Why wouldn't Servants be summoned in Fuyuki during the Fuyuki Holy Grail War?
>>
>>159736587
But he didn't. Even at her lowest point barely putting up a fight, he still couldn't kill her.

If Lancelot was subbing in for Herc in the 5th war, every Servant would breath a huge sigh of relief
>>
>>159736587
>Fate route
>first encounter, Illya forces Lancelot to retreat as usual
>second encounter, Archer just defeats him in the castle

UBW
>first encounter, Illya forces Lancelot to retreat as usual
>second encounter, Gil comes for Illya
>Lancelot charges him with no regard for protecting Illya
>Illya dies, Lancelot drops dead

>Fate route
>first encounter, Illya forces Lancelot to retreat as usual
>second encounter, Saber Alter kicks his shit in and gives him PTSD before the Shadow even has a chance of eating him
>>
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>>159736613

not as much as your grammar, ESL-kun.
>>
What happens when you reach the Root?
>>
>>159736734
>tfw forgot a "y"
I guess I need to go back to grade school.
>>
>>159736399
>>159736361
>>159736312
A Wicked Beast's Roar
>>
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>>159736765
You become a God, maybe.
>>
>>159736406
Medea sought out the first person she could find after she was masterless. She happened to be in, guess where, Fuyuki City. How are these rudimentary facts of the plot beyond your comprehension?
>>
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>>159736555
>Reading something that the author himself said it's bad.
>>
>>159731635
Would that still hold if they managed to find Touko and got her to make a perfect Shirou body?
>>
>>159736862
It is typical of any creator to think their older works are lacking because they are always trying to improve. He even called KnK "embarrassing". I don't see why people shouldn't enjoy those works for what they are because of this.
>>
>>159736008
I'd say of all the people in Fate threads, maybe 5% have read the source material. The rest are animeonlys, waifufags, shitposters, or some combination of the 3.
>>
>>159736535
To be fair to Kayneth, his original servant was Iskander which was taken from him by Waver and then he had to make last minutes changes. Kayneth would have done 10x better if Waver wasn't a shit and took his relic.
>>
>>159736091
>Gil was fucking around
Meme
>Arthuria was too busy having PTSD to fight properly
Still defending at full strength
>>
>>159736393
>>159736361
Herc couldn't do much more than swing a big rock sword like a madman while Lancelot could actually use tactics
>>
>>159735438
>he points out plot points. Not saying proposing an argument, merely stating facts of what occurs in the story
>gets called bait

I don't follow.
>>
>>159736986
The anime itself didn't catch my eye that's why im not reading the vn.
>>
Why is Gawain so much better than Lancelot? I mean with the right set up you can make Gawain fuckin invincible.
>>
>>159737122
Then why are you here?
>>
>>159736765
I always thought of the Root as the source code of the universe so you basically can do whatever you want.
>>
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>>159737118
>Mad Enhancement C
>loses ability to think complicated
>>
>>159736260
>Would have died if Tokiomi didn't recall Gil immediately
Actually and Act later narration says that Gilgamesh can't win the war as long as Lancelot is around.
>Would have died if the blow from Gordius Wheel wasn't slightly off
It wasn't, Lancelot simply escaped because he is that damn good.
>Would have died if Cthulhu was taken into IH just a few seconds later where he would have promptly crashed and been devoured
Lancelot could have used the flares at that point if needed or BP'd the F-15.
>Would have died if Kotomine didn't revive Kariya
That's true.
>Kariya didn't get the powerup worm
He did, Kariya already had the worm at that point. Kariya got the worm in Volume 3.
>>
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>>159737118
>>
>>159737182
Did you even watch F/Z? He piloted a jet fighter.
>>
>>159737138
Except in a Grail War nobody fights in the middle of the day, so it's pretty much useless. They even comment about it in Extra.
>>
>>159736393
>Herakles can't even counter the GoB good enough without getting his weapon repelled by its force

>>159736484
>someone who is unrivaled in all eras
So, not Herakles?
>>
>>159737205
What do Zerobabies think of Prisma?
>>
>>159737182
Reminder even the other servants questioned if he was really a berserker when he masterfully utilised Gil's GOB.
>>
>>159736046
>>159736312
>>159736587
>>159737185
Melvin, I thought you were still locked away in /fgog/
>>
>>159736671
>Even at her lowest point barely putting up a fight, he still couldn't kill her
He almost killed her in 11 seconds even when she was defending with all her power. And that Saber had BAA stats compared to BCC of FSN Saber. So if Zero Saber takes 11 seconds, FSN takes like 5 at most.
>>
>>159737246
The jet is a weapon, EAM allows him to use at full potential. There is no critical thinking or anything complicated on his part involved.
>>
>>159737143
I'm here to call out the stupid points of F/SN as well as the stupid ones of F/Zero from the point of view of the anime.
>>
>>159737285
Rin also commented on how Herc can fight so skillfully if he is a Berserker during the first meeting.
>>
I'm sorry, guys. I'm sorry.
>>
>>159735654
>Lancelot would've been able to beat Saber simply by means of mindfuck
Why not just beating her by means of regular fuck?
>>
>>159737282
Prisma is better than F/SN and UBW.
>>
>>159737333
see >>159737285

Lancelot was a special kind of Berserker who could obviously think several steps ahead otherwise he wouldn't have been able to style on Gil's GoB. Herc definitely didn't style on him, he just tried to get from point A to point B
>>
>>159737355
No one here is talking about the anime for FSN or Zero here.
>>
>>159737382
That's a UFOtable addition. In the VN, he just goes Hulk smash the whole time.
>>
>>159737404
>Gil opens like 5 gates on Lancelot
>he open over a hundred on Herc
Hmmm
>>
>>159737431
An addition that was Nasu approved.
>>
>>159718857
What makes it the best though?
>>
>>159736709
>Archer just defeats him in the castle
Hahahaha yeah more like Archer dies in less than a minute. If he couldn't handle Cu, he can't handle Lancelot.
>Lancelot charges him with no regard for protecting Illya
And then Gilgamesh dies for focusing Illya instead of Lancelot?
>Saber Alter kicks his shit in
If she couldn't kick Herakles shit in she can't do it to Lancelot who has higher stats and is far more skilled. GH was pretty much irrelevant as all of Saber Alter hits could get past it.
>>
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>>159737450
>Gil opens like 5 gates on Lancelot
Hmm
>>
>>159737450
>he open over a hundred on Herc
Literal headcanon or animeonly shit.

>>159737497
Just like C Rank Invisible Air being enough to harm and kill him now. And then Herakles proceeds to get pierced by 2 NP from a barrage of 4. That's top tier skill display right there.
>>
>>159737404
I'm convinced this is someone falseflagging by now
>>
>>159737590
The LN states that Lancelot would have no way to defend against that many NPs.
>>
>>159737590
>those expanded gates he never got to use on him

how retarded is this guy
>>
>>159737404
To support this

>Berserker’s battle tactics were both accurate and prudent, as though he knew the full extent of Saber's abilities. In order to hunt a lion, the best method is to keep chasing it, not giving it a single chance to bare its fangs, strangling it; Berserker's skill was like that of a hunter who fully knew the essence of this.
>>
>>159737590
He opened a few and fired at him, then he opened more and Tokiomi called him back. And the LN states Lancelot could not have handled a second barrage.
>>
>>159737605
Sorry but Lancelot was a better Berserker than Herc. If he had Ilya's mana, he would destroy the competition but he got stuck with a shitter.
>>
>>159737649
The LN states later that Gilgamesh has no way to win the war unless Diarmuid deals with Lancelot first too.
>>
>>159737590
I had a look at the episode and yeah, the most Gil fired at once towards him was 16 weapons. So both you and >>159737450 are wrong.
>>
>>159737716
Actually the LN states that Gilgamesh needed Diarmuid to beat Lancelot.
>>
>>159737760
>>159737797
>Deermud didn't handle Lancelot
>Gil still won
It's almost like that statement was proven false in the story itself.
>>
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Fate/Zero is the best one because best character doesn't die and UBW is the worst one because best character dies horribly.
>>
>>159737593
>Literal headcanon or animeonly shit.

explain
>>
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>>159737831
>UBW is the worst one because best character dies horribly.

After Heaven's Feel, you're gonna start saying Gil died an honorable death in UBW kekekeke
>>
>>159737829
Yeah and your 32 NP line was proven wrong later by Iskandar who survived 80. Shall I remind you that the line said nobody there could survive the barrage?
>>
>>159737829
>>Gil still won
He didn't win, he survived.
The victor is Kerry as he got the grail.
>>
>>159737831
Hah, wait until HF.
>>
>>159737868
The actual number of NPs used against Herakles is never stated in the VN. Saying Gilgamesh used hundreds either comes straight out of his ass or from the UBW anime, and I think not even in the UBW anime 100 were used.
>>
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>>159737593
>Literal headcanon or animeonly shit.
the VN never specifies an exact amount, only saying "infinite" a couple of times.
>>
>>159737896
>>159737971
>Gil gets eaten by the Grail.

This is why I don't like HF much. Most of the servants just get nom nom by Grail-kun.
>>
>>159738044
>Although Archer had somewhat enjoyed this original game for a while, he soon grew bored of the aerial battle after the third, then fourth exchange of the endless Holy Phantasms and missiles
Hyperbole
>>
How many NPs was Gil firing at Cu when they were fighting each other for 12 hours?
>>
>>159738062
Well, HF there was never really a war, just an eldritch abomination cutting out the middleman and getting the heroe's souls directly.
>>
>>159738044
>NP called infinite in his fight against Herc.
>Archer is his literal counter because Gil's NP is limited.

Wow, what great writing.
>>
>>159738113
Gilgamesh started with a thousand, that's all we know.

>>159737829
The 32 NP statement was proven false by Saber in FSN and Iskandar.
>>
>>159738149
>>Archer is his literal counter because Gil's NP is limited.
Read the VN you literal retard.
>>
>>159738149
That's literally hyperbole. Lancelot count is called countless despite only being 16.
>>
>>159738193
I have fuckface.
>>
Fuck whatever you guys are talking about.

Does Mahoyo have a full english translation yet?
>>
>>159738223
Then how can you say something so fucking stupid?
>>
>>159738062
Some people prefer Stay Night over Other Night and vice versa. Same with the Near Side and Far Side in Tsukihime.
>>
>>159738106
>>159738217
>h-hyperbole!
Literally can't make this shit up.
>>
>>159737829
It's not exactly Diarmuid, it's someone else, preferably Diarmuid. So yes, Gilgamesh did meet the requirement in the end.

>However, they had not anticipated Servant Berserker’s immense powers or his exceptional ability of harnessing an opponent’s Noble Phantasm. He was a natural opponent for Tokiomi’s Gilgamesh.
>In order for the battle to swing in Tokiomi’s favor…The other Servants must first defeat Berserker. This task is best accomplished by Lancer. Diarmond’s Noble Phantasm, Gáe Dearg, is the best artifact to nullify Berserker.
>>
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>>159737797
>Anybody needing Deermud for anything

you're a funny guy
>>
>>159738345
Well I guess Lancelot did block endless NPs in the end.
>>
>>159738217
If it was hyperbole. The writing should have been more specific like "The seemingly endless amounts of NPs from the gate not only repel..."
>>
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>receiving 22 A or higher ranked NPs into his body after he was chained, immobile, and out of lives was still not enough to kill Herc
>not only that, but afterwards he was still strong enough to break Enkidu while having A rank Divinity
>>
>>159738431
>A countless number of Noble Phantasms rained down on the road of the warehouse town, which already looked like it had received carpet bombing.
>And still, Archer's fierce attack didn't stop. The Noble Phantasms fell like thunderbolts, shot at Berserker's standing place with enough force to scatter anything away, and kept striking and striking and striking again. The attack was continuous, even increasing in violence. —Because the target, Berserker, just wouldn't fall down.
Damn son
>>
>>159738392
>implying he didn't
>>
>>159738462
Is that supposed to be impressive considering he achieved nothing from that?
>>
>>159738577
>breaking Enkidu
>defying death
>not accomplishments

>Lancelots accomplishments in Zero
>toyed with the king of Jobbers
>>
>>159718857
Nasu wrote the entire outline for F/Z.

There's a reason why there are references to events of F/Z in F/HA long before F/Z was created.
>>
>>159718857
>Fate Zero is the best Fate work to date
I'm afraid the Camelot story in FGO takes that.
>>
>>159738627
>There's a reason why there are references to events of F/Z in F/HA long before F/Z was created.
Hollow Ataraxia only came out a year before the Zero LN was published in 2006.
>>
>>159733781
>But Kiritsugu doesn't believe in utilitarianism, he just practice a form of it because it was the only realistic way for him he knows of to get anywhere. But it is still something not acceptable for him, he chased for the Holy Grail to try to create such world without need for such sacrifice.

------------
>Even Kotomine knew that:
>"You do not need to understand. Emiya Kiritsugu desired peace. Isn't it simple? But it was too simple for this complex world. He had to reject the extra parts that could not fit into that perfect shape."
>"But he could not tolerate that.
>He sought a perfect shape, but still wanted to save the extra parts.
>…But that is a miracle exceeding human power.
>There is no such thing as a world without conflict. He sought the Holy Grail to deny that fact."
------------

All he knows is that the Einzberns told him the Holy Grail is a legitimate miracle that could grant any wish, and he had little reason to doubt them considering they could demonstrate their sorcery trait with wish-granting (which is basically the ability to cast things without the knowledge of the magic itself). So basically he believed that such wish is possible with the demonstration, with the amount of power the Holy Grail collects, because the system was suppose to create a miracle, and even in the strict case the Einzbern would be able to give his wish a proper form with their sorcery traits.

>But when he found out the grail was corrupted and limited and malicious it is, he rejected it.
>Kiritsugu doesn't even think he's a good person, he thinks he's immoral due to his methods. and one of the reasons he said he doesn't deserve to hold Illya when she was born.

However, since the Grail at this time was tainted by Angra Mainyu, Kiritsugu was presented with the most malicious imagery of his "saved World".
>>
>>159738627
>>159738689
Zero and HA were being worked on at the same time. The first volume of Zero was done before HA, but Butcher intentionally delayed it's release for a year because it to be read in his intended order of FSN->HA->Zero
>>
>>159736765
You basically get zero-summed before you can achieve CHIM
>>
going to read fate/stay night do a read clean version or the original? also if anyone have the pastebin that would be nice
>>
>>159738622
>the king of Jobbers
King of Jobbers who just happens to be the one that made Herakles job.

Hell, Herakles losing to fucking Shirou in HF and dying to EMIYA 6 fucking times (you know, the guy who got his ass kicked by Cu and Seiba) are some of the worst displays ever seen in Nasuverse. And then we learn he couldn't handle Kojirou either, my god.

Lancelot might have lost many times, but at least he never lost to a fucking human.
>>
>>159738850
Read the original, HF isn't as powerful without the abuse and rape of Sakura.
>>
>>159738850
You want a version that has the H scenes and all the new shit added in RN.
>>
>>159738854
Herk was about the destroy Shirou if Illya didn't distract him in HF.
>>
>>159738854
There's a good reason why 'Masters beating servants' never happens again after F/SN & HA because Nasu realised it was fuckin stupid.
>>
>>159738062
How did you expect Gil's story to end?
>>
>>159738850
Fate/stay night
https://www.mofumoe.org/content/fatestay-night

Fate/stay night Réalta Nua
https://nyaa.si/view/427133
realtapatch.tumblr.com/

Fate/hollow ataraxia
https://www.mofumoe.org/content/fatehollow-ataraxia

Tsukihime
https://sukebei.nyaa.si/view/1705201

Tsukihime Fun Disc: Plus+Disc
https://www.mofumoe.org/content/tsukihime-plus-disc

Tsukihime Fun Disc: Kagetsu Tohya
https://www.mofumoe.org/content/kagetsu-tooya

TMdict is a growing collection of glossaries from works by Type-Moon.
http://tmdict.com
>>
>>159738854
Kojirou had the support of the the territory which is hostile towards the presence of servants. Had the high ground advantage. Had direct combat support from Medea.
Basically he had every defensive setup.

Its basically enough to prevent him from being instant gibbed from so many other sources.

>Also, in the game, Assassin was able to push Berserker back because of the terrain advantage and support from Caster (weighing down Berserker's body). ...Well, since the compatibility of Assassin and Berserker is horrible, the fact that Berserker was even pushed back is enough to say "whoah, Kojirou's amazing".

>If it's a straight out death match, then Archer will win. But Assassin is an oddity that fights under different battle conditions from the other Servants. While many Servants are offensive, Assassin is defensive. At a Servant-killing battlefield like Ryuudou Temple and with Caster's anti-sorcery defensive barrier, sorcery and Noble Phantasm power is decreased significantly. As a result, if it's not a powerful Noble Phantasm, then he won't take a fatal wound. Which means that the battle between the two is clearly swordsmanship. With Archer having his sniping sealed off to him due to the terrain effect, could Archer actually lose...?
>>
>>159738854
Don't forget Herakles lost a life to another human, Rin.

The guy is displayed as an absolute shitter who NEEDS his 12 Lives to even be a threat. It's even worse when you consider he has the best master of all in a war full of nerfed Servants and he still manages to do pretty bad.
>>
>>159738947
Didn't retcon that in the UBW anime
>>
>>159739022
thanks
>>159738926
explain lad?
>>
>>159738928
That's not much of an accomplishment when you consider it's a fucking human who just took 8 of his lives.
>>
>>159739044
>Don't forget Herakles lost a life to another human, Rin.
It is irrelevant whether an attack is coming from a human or a Servant, an A rank attack is still an A rank attack.
>>
>>159738850
Read the clean version. The sex scenes are terrible, and best girl gets a lot of unnecessary hate from purityfags because of the old version of her backstory.
>>
>>159738947
Yeah, it really took all the creativity out of it. Which is why none of the HGWs Nasu has written since HA has been as good as FSN or HA.
>>
>>159739044
Rin had to shotgun with the majority of her jewels to do a point blank rank A combination magic directly the head. Berserker was grabbing onto Rin, which was how she was able to get into position in the first place (who had a jewel set to activate to greatly increase her defense placed around her navel)
>>
Original FSN or Realta Nua?
>>
>>159739028
>Had the high ground advantage
>Heracles was Anakin all along
>>
>>159739028
>Kojirou had the support of the the territory which is hostile towards the presence of servants
Bitch, Kojirou is a WRAITH who can't even fucking harm Herakles to begin with. It's hilarious that Herakles couldn't get past him, it's not Kojirou moving and being on the defensive, it's him literally getting in Herakles way and not letting him pass. As good as Kojirou skill is, this just shows how much of a piece of shit Herakles is that if he gets outskilled he becomes hopeless even if the enemy can't harm him. Kojirou doesn't even have high stats.
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>>159739123
>ignoring Sakura's H scenes and backstory will make them not exist
Interesting
>>
>>159739123
Seek psychiatric assistance
>>
>>159730019
>actually believes that an anime studio gets to decide this kind of things
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>>159739183
She's a blood-drinking virgin in RN, which is the updated and canon version of the story.
>>
>>159734391
If he actually cared about Sakura he would've just told Mister Perfect Magus that his prodigious crotchspawn wasn't actually going to be trained to be the next magus heir of Matou, but was just Zouken's next spare body
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>>159739088
No other Servant would have ever jobbed to Rin like that.

>>159739162
It's fucking irrelevant what Rin had. She is a human. A human that took the life of a Servant.
>>
>>159739237
>updated and canon version of the story.
No, it's a secondary adaptation of the VN. Next you're going to tell me the UBW anime is the main canon.
>>
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which is it lads? do i read sakura and saber getting butt blasted or go for the clean version for the lore?
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>>159739181
Kojirou was the fastest servant in terms of melee speed, have all the skill set for perfect parrying, especially with all the defensive advantage set up for him.
He also have basically the best swordmanship of the 5th HGW
In addition, he had Caster's buffs on him, as well have basically infinite resource from the territory and thus could last enough for any other Servant's battery run low.
>>
>>159739288
It's literally the VN with more CGs, BGM and no mandatory awful sex scenes that weren't even written by Nasu. It's objectively an update.
>>
>>159739257
I don't think Tohasaka would care enough to do something about it.
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>>159739294
The clean version is the one that fucks up the lore, like making Rin give away part of her crest, and making Sakura a bloodsucker
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>yfw Einzberg would've won the HGWb owl if they summoned Herc as an archer instead of zerk
>>
Nasu on HF True: It (Normal End) was the only conclusion considered at the time. However, after writing about 2/3 of it, I found that the story itself did not allow such a conclusion. After that, I wrote the original conclusion, and then followed the story and write the happy end. Since this was Shirou's tale of happiness after losing so much, even if Saber and Illya were lost, at least he should let Sakura achieve happiness. And this was the conclusion. Even though Sakura indirectly became a mass murderer, there was no reason to deny her of happiness. I came up with this idea that if one were alive, it was not bad to redeem him/herself while looking forward to happiness. Even though this was hypocrisy, I felt that the story itself strongly demanded this possibility. To be honest, it was the first time that I lost to the story I wrote.

Nasu: Yes, its plot was created with porn in mind.

Takeuchi: The image of those worms became too strongly attached to Sakura, and I think we did a pretty mean thing to her. ...We're making "Fate/hollow ataraxia" now, but even in that, there's been talk of how it'll be hard to dispel Sakura's negative image...

Nasu: Aww, I don't think there's any need to dispel it, though. Isn't it alright for worms to just be part of Sakura?
>>
>>159739369
That doesn't change the fact that it is a secondary adaptation. Keep crying and denying, you pathetic retard.
>>
>>159739269
A human who also fucked a Servant as well.
>>
>>159739447
He's baiting, taking it.
>>
>>159731562
this mang,
I tried to read through FSN, yes all of it,
Still have to skip through some part of UBW because god it's fucking awful, only ameritard with their capeshit mindset could somehow found Shirou ideal plausible
Yeah yeah Shirou is broken, yeah yeah his character is deep, I got it, but the way the VN portrait him like a whiny teenager jumping into danger because MUH WHITE KNIGHT, SABER STAY IN THE KITCHEN is not enjoyable to read at all
>>
>>159738947
What's done is done and Herakles main source has him jobbing to humans. He does some good stuff in Grand Order Okeanos but only against a bunch of shit Servants and at the cost of losing fair against Saber Alter in the first Order and then Saber Alter being implied to be weaker than Lancelot in the second and confirmed weaker than Altera in the 3rd.
>>
>>159739269
Caster jobbed to Rin


Powerlevels really don't matters much in Nasuverse.

in Nasuverse it is about stacking the deck or having as much situational advantage as possible to gank stronger foes.
So many of the fights in Tsukihime and FSN basically boils down to that, with only conceptual powers being the dampener.

Its the reason why Arcueid and Nrvnqsr jobbed to Shiki
>>
>>159739269
>A human that took the life of a Servant.
>Shirou killed Gil
>Kuzuki killed Rider
>Sakura killed Gil
So?
>>
>>159739447
>being this butthurt that Sakura is canonically a virgin
RN isn't an adaptation, it's the source of the adaptations. The original VN is just outdated trash that's missing CGs for several pivotal moments.
>>
>>159739451
Servant said to be one of the shittiest Servants
>>
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>>159732830
He just is very traditional in general
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>>159739482
>SABER STAY IN THE KITCHEN
Both Shirou and Kiritsugu were right though. She should have lived her life as a woman, at least she would have been happier than pretending to be something she wasn't.
>>
>>159739482
Only played through UBW for Caster and and Shirou vs Archer. The rest is meh.
>>
>>159739541
There is nothing wrong with any of those opinions.
>>
>>159739385
Tokiomi gave Sakura away because he didn't want her potential wasted by keeping her, nor to keep her ignorant because her sheer innate talent would get her killed by people who want it for themselves, by giving her away to the heirless Matou then she'd have the same opportunities as her sister, and would increase the chance that someone from his line would win the Holy Grail War

What actually happened, wherein she wasn't taught anything, and was only trained to be a meat puppet is nowhere near what he wanted
>>
>>159718857
>Fate Zero is the best Fate work
>>
>>159739541
Shirou just triggers normalfags (Zerobabies).
>>
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i have found a solution to my problem i will play the new version and jerk off the old version later
>>
>>159739385
>>159739257
TMF: Did Tokiomi know what Sakura would go through after she had been adopted by the MATŌ?

U: What’s important for Tokiomi is not the position of parent, but the magical progression in his family. So he’s aware of having literally thrown away his daughter. You can imagine that Tokiomi says to himself that, through his dear daughter, he will come into have greater magical powers. Tokiomi knew what Sakura would undergo but, for him, this would allow her to become a true mage. As long as it led to augmenting the magical potential of his family, he wouldn’t have any problem with the treatment of Sakura among the MATŌ. However, if he had known Sakura’s fate, of being only a womb for Zōken, he would have refused. He also imagined that if things went too far, Sakura would be able to stop Zōken herself. Unconsciously, even if he would never have said it, the fight between Sakura and Rin at the end of Heaven’s Feel was for him the best thing which could have happened for the TŌSAKA.

Aoi, on the other hand, knew nothing.
>>
>>159739545
well the problem is that Kirisugu know it can't be help and the grail is what they should focus on, so he just ignore her ass
Shirou constantly chanting "no saber don't fight, no saber you're cute please dont get hurt"
wtf she is a servant and has her own goal,
you can't just tell her to crawl into a corner and sit there.
>>
>>159739617
Tomboys just need a good raping
-Emiya Shirou
>>
>>159739363
>Kojirou was the fastest servant in terms of melee speed
+ aren't permanent buffs, on paper he is as fast as Cu and Medusa.
>have all the skill set for perfect parrying
Kojirou can't clash directly against Servants or his sword gets bent.
>He also have basically the best swordmanship of the 5th HGW
No doubt, the problem here is that Herakles was literally helpless against him despite Kojirou being unable to harm him. Like this means Herakles couldn't land a single hit, thing that we see against during the battle against Saber in the Einzbern Forest in which Saber with BCC stats didn't get hit once by Herakles, that's terrible.
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>>159739482
You didn't figure out that Shirou was just trying to find any excuse to stop anybody from having to protect him.
In his warped perspective, it is unacceptable for anybody else to be saving him, and instead it if much more preferable for him to get the shit beat out of him. Which stems from his survivor's guilt and the lack of self.

If Saber was a man, Shirou would have still tried to do the same.
>>
>>159739697
Sure he can, he's her Master.
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>>159739711
So that's why Shirou and Kirei bond so well!
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>>159739711
Rin practically raped Saber, does that count?
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>>159739504
Gil was because he is Gil and he is retarded. Medusa is just trash so no wonder she got killed by a human. Herakles has almost no excuse for losing lives to Shirou.
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>>159739796
>Herakles has almost no excuse for losing lives to Shirou.
Shirou is the MC and Herc was an antagonist. Have you read the VN?
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>>159739711
Well, maybe a good raping will teach them that they're girls and should keep that in mind the next time they try to act like boys.
>>
>>159739796
Nasu was talking about re-writing the Fate route in the anime remake. Shame we never got to see what he would change, how he would change, etc
>>
>>159739840
Pretty sure Kerry didn't beat Diarmuid when he came to the rescue just because he was the MC.
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I like berserker the most
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>>159739728
Cu and Medusa have the same agility but their speed specializations are in vastly different category.
>The two boasting the most outstanding speed in the game. Rider, able to move like a bullet and race around the battle field vs Lancer, able to counter attackers with a lance with the speed of gods, while standing still. In average speed, Rider is faster, but in immediate maximum output, Lancer will win. While Rider has several different types of Noble Phantasms, Lancer also has protective ability from rune sorcery, hence counter measures from her mystic eyes. Against an expert monster exterminator like Lancer, one who has a monster alignment such as Rider might seem to be in for a tough fight....!?

Kojirou's parrying style is all about not directly hitting or blocking. He only made a direct block against Saber because he was running out of time, and was desperate to get into position to execute a complete Tsubame Gaeshi.

Heracles was heavily debuffed by Medea, again the territory.
>>
>>159718857
The best Fate work is Carnival Phantasm. Anyone who says otherwise is fucking wrong.
>>
>>159739908
Because he had no way of killing him. What are you even trying to say.
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>>159740010
Remember Tsukihime? Neither do they

http://typemoon.com/game
>>
>>159739858
I think the worst shit that could happen to a Servant was appear in the original VN or in Extella. They are meant to job 1 vs 1 against shitters at some point. Even if not outright job, having their abilities downplayed to the level of their enemies, having results like Herakles not landing a hit on a BCC Saberor Gilgamesh getting his shit kicked in by Lu Bu.
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>>159739969
>Heracles was heavily debuffed by Medea
Only debuff I see mentioned is a weight debuff.
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>>159740010
>>
>>159718857
>best fate to date
sorry, this is not Unlimited blade works.
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>>159740092
Nah, FSN did a great job of displaying how amazing some Servants, like Herc and Cu, were without outright just having them win everything. Nowadays, powerlevel shitters just care about who is beating who.
>>
>>159740205
>FSN did a great job of displaying how amazing some Servants, like Herc and Cu

Examples please
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>>159736037
that arthuria its a terrible casting choice.
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>>159740249
Herc breaking Enkidu, reviving past his limit. Cu not dying, 12 hours against Gil. You really should read the VN if you're curious.
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>>159740205
Not to mention in Nasuverse, power level actually means not a lot practically.

Stacking the deck, situational advantages, rock-paper scissor battle compatibility, having the right tool especially the conceptual ones matters a lot more.

For example, although Arcueid is vastly more powerful than Gilgamesh, she have poor compatibility against him because of all the tools and coverage in his arsenal.
>>
>>159740205
Herc should be winning in a war full of nerfed Servants yet he manages to lose 6 Lives against a B at best rank Servant.

Just so you can understand better, Liz is an A rank Servant. And yet EMIYA is worse than Liz, and he still managed to take 6 lives when he wouldn't have been able to take 1 from a regular above average Servant.
>>
>>159740316
>war full of nerfed Servants
Like Herc? Like I said, all you shitters care about who is beating who.
>>
>>159740297
>Cu not dying, 12 hours against Gil.
>You really should read the VN if you're curious.

There was no 12 hours against Gil in the VN. That was mentioned in the Complete Material books.
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>>159740378
Which is complementary material to the VN, which you should read.
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>>159740316
Heracles was one of the most nerfed servant with the madness enchantment.
>>
Did Lancer have a chance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE3NGyzor8Y
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>>159740376
Herc wasn't nerfed, he had the best Master to date. Not being in his best class doesn't mean nerfed by the way.
>>
Which Servants were the biggest jobbers in FSN?
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>>159740454
Not being at your best is being nerfed. Not only does ME not help Herc, it actively hinders him.
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>>159740423
Wrong, Herakles is only confirmed better as Saber snd Archer. He could be worse than Berserker as Lancer, Assassin or Rider.

And you don't see people saying Karna is nerfed because he isn't Archer or that Saber is nerfed for not being summoned as her superior Lancer version.
>>
He was at his best, under the class he was summoned. The others were not.
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>>159740454
>Not being in his best class doesn't mean nerfed by the way.
Yes it is.
He has complete immunity against weapons from GoB barring Ea in Archer class.

>>159740505
Gil then Herc.
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>>159740538
>superior Lancer version
No it isn't.
>>
>>159740571
Was for >>159740530

>>159740574
>He has complete immunity against weapons from GoB barring Ea in Archer class.
Alcides and Herakles are not the same.
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>>159740665
Lancer Arturia beat Gilgamesh and Ozymandias at the same time.
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>>159740297
>>159740378
What is this "12 hours against Gil"? I have no recollection of it whatsoever.
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>>159739407
problem is herc is really really independant and probably wouldn't give a shit a good majority of the time as archer, shit in F/SF where he IS a more throughly controlled archer then illya would have in that war is autistic as almighty shit and specifically mentioned as a complete pain in the ass to control.
>>
>>159730486
All 3 routes provide an equally valid answer to Shirou's problem at the start of the VN, that's why non of the routes really lead to Archer, with Fate having the highest, but still very small chance. Heaven's Feel just provide the resolution to Fate Stay Night as a whole.

Fate: After seeing the orphans under the church, he resolves not to look back and regret the decisions he made, because it would dishonor the memories of the people who he had to walk over to get there. Same resolution as Saber. Archer route Shirou did not have this scene, thus he was unable to save her heart, leading to that Saber being resummoned to GO, and himself accepting the contract that turned him into a Counter Guardian.

UBW: He accepts that his ideal is just an unreachable dream, and he cannot saves everyone, but he still strives to do the best he can with his ability anyway, even if he can't save everyone he can still save a lot of people.

HF: He chose to focus on the people right in front of him (Sakura/Illya) over the world. He's still mentally broken (see: him throwing his life away in HF to save Sakura, just as he throw his life away to save people in post Fate/UBW), just in a form easier to digest for normal people
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>>159740530
Didn't Illya nerf Herc's ME so that it didn't even grant him anything except madness?
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>>159728192
>Ryushiki EOP fags

:^)
>>
>>159740751
It was an idiot claiming it was in the VN when it wasn't, then tells people to read the VN. The stupidity in these threads never ceases to amaze me.

Fate/Complete Material II
>Personal Abilities
>Battle Continuation: A
>Legend tells that the dying Cú Chulainn tied himself to a tree before taking his last breath. For he who possesses such a legend, the dying struggle is particularly fierce. Even in a hopeless battle, Cú Chulainn was still able to demonstrate astonishing tenacity, delaying Gilgamesh for half a day.
>Against Emiya who dextrously fended off his spear thrusts, Cú Chulainn countered with an unyielding fighting spirit.
>>
>>159740763
>problem is herc is really really independant and probably wouldn't give a shit a good majority of the time as archer
He would if he cared, and he would care about Illya
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>>159740823
He activated it in the battle against Saber in the Forest, and Herakles managed to do far worse than he did during the first night even. So he wasn't missing much I guess.
>>
>>159740823
Herc's ME literally cannot boost his stats because all of its power goes into keeping Herc mad and there is nothing leftover for his stats
>>
In the anime, there is a fight scene between Rin and Ilya, but are there any mages who could even win against Ilya in a magic fight in the actual 「Fate/stay night」, 「Fate/Zero」, or 「Fate/hollow ataraxia」 games?

Nasu: Frankly, she is the top mage in Fuyuki. Still, first-class mages would follow the "since she's a child of nature, just cut her off from the land first" plan, so it's not like she's invincible. Kayneth and Tokiomi may be able to best her in a magic duel. Rin is just relentless. But if we're talking about the dark girl who contaminates the land itself...

Takeuchi: ...Sakura's magecraft skills are really fit for a boss, aren't they.
>>
>>159740092
>Gilgamesh getting his shit kicked in by Lu Bu.
Nani?
>>
>>159740877
Regular Archer Herc is also a moralfag, so i don't know how well illya and Archer Herc would mesh.
Archer/Avenger Herc doesn't give a shit though and the 2 would probably get along as long as she allowed his whole autistic REEEEE for gods to go unabated.
>>
>>159740863
Interesting. But - it's a random offscreen fight that had a foregone conclusion; how did it ever become a point of contention? Why does it matter for how long Cu was able to fight Gil?
>>