You have 10 seconds to defend digital animation.

>>144610974
Why are the colors so dull?

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pic related, try harder kiddo

>>144610974
FLCL

>>144610974
2:58 to 3:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdU8dyjgXU0

>>144610974
niggas don't have to die making it

>>144611521
Colors had to be bright and vibrant back then due to tv's, thats why you saw lots of straight up blacks and shit in Dragon Ball Z but when you watch a cleaned up restored version like in Kai you see that there was actually shades of color in it.

Now with digital animation they normally take into account color theory and have many more colors to work with instead of the limited amount they do.


Now they can concentrate more on animation and use tools to flood fill rather then concentrate on cell by cell animation and dying to meet deadline.

>>144611806
>it allows for more shit on the screen therefore its good

nice try

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They could just up the contrast a little and easily get the same effect.

The whole point of doing anything in a digital format is that it's easily modifiable with a few clicks. Blame the shitty look on the art direction

>>144610974
not sure which is which, but left > right

>>144610974
What's the difference?

>>144612027
But the problem is that those different shades look like shit.

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Digital coloring and compositing allows for a wider range of artstyles. Cell animation only allows for thick black lines with dull colors. Can't use gradients, can't use bloom, can't use blur, etc.

>>144612504
Then why does the digital animation look so bad?

>>144612504
>gradients
>bloom
>blur
All look like shit and are the cancer that killed anime art

>>144610974
Did you even think this one through OP?

>>144612336
Agreed. The proportions look better on the right, but left has better lighting.

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>>144612555
Because a lot of people don't know how to use it.

>>144612596
They're not inherently bad. Just because you have a fetish for flat colors and crisp lines doesn't mean DoF filters, fake flats, or bloom can't do wonders for the composition of an image.

>>144612765
Not him, but those things just tend to become overused or misused, a fucking band-aid for boring design.

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>>144612732
>America can make CG movies that look better than the majority of Ghibli movies while still being more interesting and entertaining
>Japan can't even make background CG look passable

Ghost in the Shell: Innocence
As of yet the only reason

>>144613010
Americans are the masters of CG and software stuff and Japan is like at least 10 years behind.

>>144612732
Do you know how expensive that kind of rendering is? Japs don't have that kind of money.

>>144612871
That is what I'm saying. Those things are just tools, they can be used properly or not, but they are not inherently bad. It's not the fault of digital coloring that most directors in the industry don't know how to use them well. That's why digital animation is better: it offers more tools which allow for more creativity, variety, and freedom. The only advantage that cell animation has over digital is the ability to have messier lines because they don't need to be cleaned up for coloring. The other thing is film grain but that can be emulated by digital easily and it also has the downside that you can't avoid it when using cell animation, and that makes it so all cell animated shows look more similar. Instead of being a tool that gives creative freedom, it's a restriction.

>>144613402
I'd say the current aesthetic design of most modern anime has to do more with the popularity of super flat design in Japan and $$$ than it does with digital animation itself.

There are too many studios making too many shows that don't make any money, so they cut fucking corners everywhere.

>>144610974
It's faster to do so we get more anime each season as a result.

>>144613090
>>144613010
How do they do their AAA games then?

>>144614370
>comparing videogames, feature movies and weekly anime
You can't be this retarded

>>144613090
Ghibli should, but those fuckers act like it's still 1960 so they'll never bother.

>>144612732
That's nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nMo8duNJNU

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There's nothing wrong with digital animation, more animators are working digitally over pencil and paper these days, it's only a matter of time before it becomes the standard.

Digital colouring and composite could be better on average though. There's so much potential but only a handful are doing interesting things with the technology available. Shingo Yamashita has done some great digital photography in the works he directed and I must say his approach looks great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuaRNaWPOt8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oEyp-0xtwg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2TZExeJzIk
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4k2u0j

Animators like Mitsuo Iso and Kou Yoshinari are pretty good too.

https://youtu.be/r0KIUKXFrV8

I can forgive bad animation if the story is good.

I can't forgive a shit story even if the animation is good.

>>144614502
Why the fuck should Ghibli switch to full CGI animation?

>>144610974
I hate how crisp and clean digital shit looks, probably why I've been falling out with anime.

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>>144614502
>wanting Ghibli to switch to CGI

>>144612504
games with blur and bloom are shit.

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>>144613013
Too bad it took almost a year to do a 5 minute scene.

>>144614502
>Ghibli should
Ghibli's most expensive movie was Kaguya, at $50M. I believe this was also the most expensive anime ever. Zootopia had a $150M budget.

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has there even been a show with cel-shading in the last 10 years?

>>144615460
berserk

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>>144615506

>>144610974
That pic doesn't show anything bad with digital animation. It shows that the art director for the Rebuilds really likes darker shades, which you may or may not like. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Rebuilds were digitally animated.

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>>144615506

>>144613066
Nah, Japan is way better at digital 2D animation, US is way better at digital 3D animation. Both went in different directions when the age of digitisation hit, and now both have their strengths and weaknesses, but neither is better than the other overall.

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>>144615687
i mean the new one

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>>144615043
>I don't like anime now that it looks good

>>144615737
>US is way better at digital 3D animation.

3D movies look like shit.

>>144615765
That ps2 animation looks like shit compared to this >>144615687

>>144615766
It looks like it has no soul, It probably is just autism. It's salt on the wound more so when I have to see that jarring disgusting 3D shit also in the same place as that digital shit.

>>144615797
That's your opinion. US is still way better at making them than Japan objectively.

>>144615886
I can agree with that at least.

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>>144615766
>having absolutely zero texture looks "good"

>>144615862
Get off the computer, grampa

>>144615822
The animation was better in the manga.

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>>144610974
>animation
>posts stills

>>144610974
>Digital
I don't think this means what you think it means, OP.

>>144615952
>texture

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"digital animation" has been a thing for years

this whole topic seems to be confusing a lot of people, most of whom don't know anything at all

digital animation covers a spectrum of areas not just CGI. i'm not even sure what the fuck OP is trying to discuss here.

>>144616041
He wants cells to be used for everything forever.

>>144616017
Yes, texture.

Thank you for further elucidating that you're an absolute philistine.

>>144616041
is this from the mononoke art book?

>>144616041
The frames of the original Evangelion series were drawn on paper by hand. Hence hand drawn animation.
The frames of the Rebuilds were drawnn on a computer with a mouse. Hence digital animation.
OP is saying that the Rebuilds look worse because of this. He's retarded.

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>Digital master race

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>>144616204
>mouse

>>144616041
You probably havent even seen Escaflowne, dont @ me again

>>144616204
But most of the rebuilds were drawn on paper and then scanned like 99% of anime nowadays.

The only things that were 100% digital were the Evas, the Angels, and some buldings

>>144614671
>only a matter of time before it becomes the standard.
Are you retarded? It's been the standard for years.

>>144615460
>speed lines

what the fuck was that slideshow?

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>>144616176
yeah, it's really great.

>>144616329
>he draws with his keyboard

lmao dude

Sometimes restriction means rigor and striving, and freedom means complacency and degeneration. With traditional animation, significant attention had to be paid to composition and shading to get a desired effect, while certain looks were harder or even impossible to achieve, what they did manage to make looked as good as it could for its aesthetic to make up for the restricted range. With digital, all the additional freedom and potential has done is enable artists to lazily wank off with filters, bloom, and shitty effects. While one could say that in theory the new potential could only positively affect the output of a theoretical ideal artist, the artists we have are real people, and like in the real world as technology and potential has advanced, greater freedom and ease of ability leads not to a rennaisance of vigorous craft and effort with new tools wielded alongside old as needed, but instead to a newly lazy and complacent masses leaning on their newest crutch, losing entirely the ability to do anything without it and letting the craft of generations languish until it finally dies before the easy shortcuts that have replaced it. Just look back upon the innumerable crafts that have died before the innovations that were meant to merely augment them, and don't wonder why animation is next in line.

>>144616109
How is that any different from literally everything having the same grainy texture? Put a dusty screen over your monitor and that's literally the same effect. At least digital animation can pick between having it or not having it. Most of they time they choose not to have it because it's a defect of cell animation, not an advantage.

>>144616204
>Google says this isn't pasta
What the fuck.

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>>144616204
Digital animation is still drawn on paper by hand.

>>144616683
This.

>>144616414
Not digital key animation. Much of it is still drawn with pencil.

>>144616683
This. Anime was born from attempts to emulate American animation without an American budget. Without those constraints its getting lame as fuck.

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>>144611521
They aren't tough. Correct brightness, color and exposition are dependent of a good TRANSFER.

Op just took a bad example. Pic related.

>>144615979
Nichijou is one of the very, very few anime actually striving for aesthetics I can think of that uses digital animation in a way that looks good instead of merely drowning everything in filters and calling it art. It's probably because it actually embraced a brightly colorful style instead of aiming for the bloomed and faded monotony that almost all modern "good looking" anime think is what everything should look like.

>>144616735
Film grain isn't even what we were referring to, retard.

>>144617032
>filters
What. Very few anime drown things in filters.

>>144617055
Then give an example of other textures in cell animation please

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>>144616371
>
The only things that were 100% digital were the Evas, the Angels, and some buldings

Actually only on some scenes Evas on rebuild are CGs, mostly when they are running far away or movin statically around before being launch. Pic related is 100% hand drawn Eva. Only the coloring is done in the computer.

Because I'm not a brain dead child who needs all anime to be so cost ineffective that it kills itself to be good.

A good story can save less than stellar animation
Good animation can't save a shit story, which is why Bones has so many fucking flops.

You're watching a product meant to sell you something. Acknowledge that before bitching

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>>144610974
It's not CGI animation.

>>144617151
Oh my fucking god, we're talking about visual texture, not the actual physical texture of the surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_(visual_arts)

>>144616870
Key frames are. Inbetween frames, details, backgrounds, colouring and shading is done digitally. Even then, the key frames can and often are edited digitally even after they're drawn by hand.

>>144613090
They put that level of detail into video games...

>>144610974
its faster. cheaper. You can't really draw explosions so 3D does explosions better.

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>>144617055
You do realize acrylic painting is almost pefectly smooth and devoid of texture? You do realize that a wide variety of texture can be added to digital animation and that paiting with other paint non-acrylic is a pain in the ass analogically and almost no one did that outside of the experimental realm? I prefer analogical myself but you just went full retarded.

Here is a sharp I frame of Eva's EoE. The paiting is clearly flat as fuck
The only "texture" that is the film grain which is not part of the artistic process creation itself.

>>144617301
I don't see any examples here

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>>144617380
>You can't really draw explosions

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>>144617032
You either need to watch more anime or correct your shit taste.

>>144610974
Right looks way better

>>144612765
>adding blur makes it better!
the eye will naturally blur things, adding blur such as in pic related is fucking cancer

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>>144617380
>You can't really draw explosions so 3D does explosions better.
YOU WUT MATE?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LXIIn_5lqk

>>144617406
>>144617301

>>144617341
Most inbetweens are done by interns and Korean slaves, very few studios, if any, use motion tweening

>>144617380
>You can't really draw explosions

Please be bait.

>>144617380
>You can't really draw explosions
The fuck are you on about? There are animators who are specialists at animating explosions.

>>144617372
You do realize that anime itself does not make money right? Anime is not really a product. It is an advertisement for other actually profitable merchandise.

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>>144617341
>inbetween frames
drawn on paper by inbetweeners
pic related

>details
depends what kind of details you're talking about

>backgrounds
depends on the anime, a lot of studios still use paint

>color and shading
done digitally, yes

>>144617519
>the eye will naturally blur things
In a 3D space, sure. In a 2D image, it won't, that's not how focus works. That's why using blur adds depth to an image when used properly.

>>144617531
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_(visual_arts)
Did you even read what I posted?
ACRYLIC IS KNOWN FOR BEING ALMOST TEXTURELESS YOU DUMB FUCK.

>>144617423
What's the point in providing an example when you don't even understand the point of discussion?

>>144617533
>Most inbetweens are done by interns and Korean slaves
Who do them digitally.

>>144617646
>In a 2D image, it won't, that's not how focus works

>Implying the eye is magically unable to focus on specific parts of a 2D image
you're a god damn retard of epic proportions

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>>144615862
>It looks like it has no soul
Because you lose the human effect of imperfect lines and actual painted cells, to be replaced with computerized lines and click-to-fill color schemes.

Not to mention the incestuousness of the industry and how everything always looks the same because their underpaid wage slave animators learn to draw basically from copying other anime, which is why everything everything looks like it could be from the same studio, aside from the shows made by actual artists with actual talent.

Of course none of this matters to the actual weeaboos or autistic people who just like anime as a vessel to watch the same cast of character archetypes do things in a slightly different setting.

>>144617662
>dodging the question

>>144617714
>implying the blur of a thing in the corner of your vision at the same distance as the thing you're looking at is the same as the blur of something further away
Not him,but you're a goddamn retard yourself.

>>144617684
Nope, inbetweens are done on paper too

>>144617722
I can only watch older anime these days even if it is just a bunch of sliding images like >>144615460 it is better than what we currently have.

>>144617807
you have no control over your eyes and you don't know how to focus on things close to your face
get glasses, you blind fuck

>>144617684
No. Unless you have a source that contradicts me, of course.

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>>144616683
For all your talk about how anime isn't made by a theoretically ideal artist and that real people use digital animation as a crutch, you don't seem to realise that those real people shoved out lazy, half-assed animation using cels years before digtal was the standard. Limitations do not inherently lead to better work.

>>144617684
If you mean in a walcom tablet, then no because is more expensive than than drawing by hand and doing an automated vector scan.

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>>144610974
>ITT: Tons and tons of bait
Truth be told, japanese animation (as in, their ability to bring drawings to life in realistic manner) has never been better. Real animators used to laugh at anime back during the 80s and 90s and for good reason. It was fucking terrible. Computers have helped them tremendously. Whether or not that was a good thing remains to be seen. I myself kind of prefer the old style, since it was unique and more fun to watch.

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>>144610974

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>>144617714
You're a retard of epic proportions yourself if you think your eye can magically blur out different planes of a flat image automatically. Your eye will blur out things on your peripheral vision, but it won't give 3D depth to an image like DoF does. Look at pic related, the fan is close to the camera and the table is not, but they're next to each other. Your eye won't blur out one if you look at the other.

>>144617914
>Real animators

Like?

>>144617722
>everything always looks the same
What are you on about? How the fuck does Mob Psycho look the same as Alderamin? Or NnT look the same as Love Live? Or Danganronpa look the same as Arslan? Seriously, what?

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>>144617659
You're literally the only one talking about the material. Again, that isn't what I'm referring to.

>>144617931
Left is better.

>>144617936
>table
the umbrella thing, I meant

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To be fair CG has its plus size. A perfect exampel of an anime that would be VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to be done analogically in the same level of quality is Girls und Panzer.

Either we would have a massive fest of sliding static cells of tanks, or the animation would be so bad that it would be a pain to watch, or it would have need to be funded by a milionaire and be the most expensive analogical anime ever produced.

In the first two scenarios, the battle and action scenes would have been severely reduced and inferior that what we had.

>>144618031
>texture
>not referring to the way you apply painting to a canvas.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

>>144618012
Like 15% of the shows ever airing at a time have a unique-ish art style, and the rest all look like they could have come from the same studio.

Don't act like that isn't the case just because you have some standouts that I clearly mentioned prior.

>>144617992
American, European, and basically all non-japanese animators. There's a reason no one cared about anime until recently. Their animation has always been pretty bad (thus why they focused so much on the art/character design, since it helped to mask the bad movement.)

>>144617936
>look and focus on fan instead of the whole image
>everything else is blurry because I'm focusing on something
you're fucking blind, anon
learn to use your eyes

>>144618036
If you say so.

>>144618031
And you still haven't provided any fucking examples of it being used in animation. Acrylic paint is flat (unlike, say, oil), and if you remove film grain, the color and texture of cell animation is just as flat as digital. If anything, digital allows for more texture, see the hair in >>144612678

>>144618281
>you're fucking blind, anon
No anon, you're fucking blind if your eye can't focus on a flat image. Go get glasses.

>>144618118
You're talking about fucking painting when the discussion is about animation, dipshit.

Texture as it applies to painting isn't the same as texture as it applies to visual arts in a general sense, dumbass.

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>>144617722
Do you think you're posting a good example of how much better and "human" old cell animation looks? Because that image looks terrible in every aspect. Meanwhile, in current day, we're frequently getting shows that look like this.

>>144618364
you're both blind AND illiterate, considering I said I focused both on the whole image and the fan
kill yourself

>>144618140
> the rest all look like they could have come from the same studio
I'm not even sure what you mean by this, because artstyle is generally determined by the individuals, not the studio. Very few studios have a unified house style, especially not the larger ones and/or the ones that rely on freelancers a lot. So "could be made by the same studio" is almost entirely fucking meaningless.

Anyway, you said 15%? Fine. How does Amanchu look like Active Raid? 91 Days and Berserk? New Game and ReLIFE? This is already 30%, and I doubt you could make any actual argument that the remaining 70% all look the same, since you haven't even given examples so far. Hell, these aren't even standouts - plenty of them look more or less normal, but "normal" means any of several quite broad styles. Actually watch anime instead of parroting bullshit you hear from others.

>>144618367
Yes bitch but cell animation doesn't have that shit, idiot. That's why I've been telling you to provide examples from the start, and yet you can't.

>>144617722
that picture looks like shit

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>>144617662

>>144618416
>considering I said I focused both on the whole image and the fan
let me quote you
>look and focus on fan instead of the whole image
>instead of the whole image

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>>144610974
Oh look it's the "muh grain" thread yet again.

>>144610974
Using your example show, no jitter due to improper cel alignment.

I just want everyone in this thread talking about "cells" and "cell animation" to know that you're all fucking retarded. It's "cel."

>>144618379
Why would I want to watch a cartoon that looks like someone just traced over real life?

>>144618317
>digital allows for more texture
Yes, but Kabaneri isn't exactly typical of modern animation. Digital animation is used as a crutch more often than it's used as a tool.

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>>144618367
>You're talking about fucking painting when the discussion is about animation

Let's define animation in 3 words for you:
MULTIPLE SEQUENCIAL PAINTINGS

I'm not sure if you are retarded or just pretended to be.

Texture can be utilized in either static paiting and animation. Be it digital or analogical, although for obvious reasons "volumetrica texture" created by thick layers of paint can't be present in animation BE IT DIGITAL OR ANALOGICAL.

You claim that Analogical animation has MORE possibility/use for paiting than digital.

We have presented arguments of why you were wrong.
You dodged the question and resorted to name caliing and a retarded (wrong) semantincs discussion.

You are a failure of human being, please kill yourself.

>>144618634
I provided an example of texture in digital animation, and I'm still waiting for yours.

>>144618633
Are you saying it looks bad? Because that's all that matters. And it doesn't look bad.

>>144618438
Cell animation doesn't have what? The illusion of having texture?

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>>144618682
It looks worse than bad, it looks boring.

>>144618693
Yep, besides film grain. If you think it does, go ahead and prove me wrong with examples.

>>144617914
>as in, their ability to bring drawings to life in realistic manner
Realism isn't the be all, end all of animation, nor is it a recent development in Japanese animation.

>>144618488
I didn't move the goalposts, you kicked at the wrong goal.

>>144618633
Why are you on an anime board then?
>>>/co/ seems more to your tastes.

>>144618744
Cell animation doesn't have texture.

>>144616041
Link for the artbook?

>>144618031
fucking retard

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>>144618767
Anime is cartoons, anonymous.

>>144618703
I disagree, it looks completely fine. Whereas that Dragon Half image's proportions look like shit (not the cutesy style in general, but the fatness of her limbs and the shitty tits specifically), eyecancer coloring (particularly the hair), and honestly looks much more boring than >>144618379 because there is almost nothing going on visually aside from Mink and that light.

>>144610974
It's cheaper.

>>144618703
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. It's a completely boring and standard shot that you can find frequently in modern anime. But it still looks 10X better than what you posted from the decades ago, as if it were showing off how good old animation used to look.

>>144618811
i took a scan of my own book, don't have a link to it

>>144612944
/v/ pls

>>144610974
I think one thing that's overlooked quite a bit is the economic part of it. Cel animation was damn expensive, from the cels themselves to the camera setups. Starting a new studio might be prohibitively expensive.

I'm doubtful that we would have half the output we have right now if not for digital. Of course, some would say that would actually be a good thing.

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>>144618829
>I disagree, it looks completely fine
It looks like there is literally not a single remarkable thing about the entire production and that nobody will remember it even passingly 1 year from today because it's another dull-as-dirt time killer

>>144618873
>It's boring and nobody gives a rats ass about it, making it better

Really cranked the autism up to 11 this summer.

>>144618820
Yes. But anime are cartoons that 90% of the time try to immitate real life. Whereas, the Western cartoons you can find on /co/ try to detatch themselves from reality 90% of the time. I think you'd enjoy them more.

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>>144618438
>cell animation doesn't have that shit
Not him, but calm down, it does, pic related, the flames are cell animated.

>>144618963
>this one still shot of people sitting down looks like the entire production is completely forgettable

>>144618424
People who wank over cel and how cancer modern anime and digital are tend, in 9 cases out of 10, to be people with their heads stuck so far up their ass they can't actually watch any anime, be it from the past century or the present.

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>>144618974
>anime are cartoons that 90% of the time try to immitate real life

>>144618655
>You claim that Analogical animation has MORE possibility/use for paiting than digital.
No I didn't.

You're conflating my argument with OP's and other posters in this thread.

>>144618974
>anime are cartoons that 90% of the time try to immitate real life
This is only true in a really, really loose sense.

>>144619122
>>144615952

>>144619032
Well to be fair it's not like Rakugo had superb animation or anything. It was alright, sometimes good.
It's not like you can convey the amazing scene and sound direction through screencaps.

>>144619031
Ok, that's one example, from a movie with movie budget. Do you have any screenshots of it being done in TV anime like the example I posted of Kabaneri or the pumpkin here >>144615979?

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>>144610974
What one of the best studios in the current industry does with their animation would be impossible without digital. Cel shading would take 8+ months for a single 1cour anime.

I bet you are too old to even know what the current top 5 studios are anyways so it doesn't really matter if I name it. Back to your 3x3 and pre2000 anime containment threads, please.

>>144618801
>>144618714
Every image has texture, retards. Texture can be conveyed through the composition of the image itself, not just through the material used to create it.

>>144619256
Just search around your backlog, pal. Texture effects are usually used on explosion, water, wind, dust, etc.
I agree with you that digital has more possibility for textures since they can easily be applied in overlays, tough. But it's not like digital has absolutely NO texture. I'm
>>144617406
by the way.

>>144619340
So what
>>144615952
said is wrong?

What you're saying is that cell animation doesn't have the advantage of having texture over digital animation? I'm pleased with that.

>>144619340
That's nice, care to provide an example?

>>144619237
I really shouldn't have to put a disclaimer on an obvious hyperbolic statement to tell you not to take it 100% literally.

>>144615687
That looks amazing

>>144617931
Shit I should really watch theatrical Zeta

>>144619409
Then we were both on the same side from the beginning because this all started when >>144615952 said that digital has no texture.

>>144619472
Even if it's a hyperbole, you're still implying that cell animation has more texture than digital, which is just false.

>>144618963
>It looks like there is literally not a single remarkable thing about the entire production and that nobody will remember it even passingly 1 year from today because it's another dull-as-dirt time killer
It's a fucking masterpiece set around World War II which deals with the nature of art, those who strive to uphold traditional artistic values in a time of rapid social change for Japan, and those who try to adapt their art in order to ensure its continued survival in the coming age of mass entertainment. It's masterfully directed in a unique and refreshing way, and uses a framed narrative structure to contextualise its core story in a way that makes it several times more thought provoking than otherwise. I am actually disgusted that you consider yourself able to declare that "all modern anime is boring and shit!!!!" without even having seen the best show to come out this year, maybe even this decade.

>It's boring and nobody gives a rats ass about it, making it better
You think anyone cares about the eyesore posted in >>144617722 other than to comment on how poorly drawn and garishly coloured it looks?

>>144619422
>What you're saying is that cell animation doesn't have the advantage of having texture over digital animation? I'm pleased with that.
He claimed the opposite.

>>144619340
>Every image has texture, retards.
We know, dumbass. Your autism makes you incapable of getting the point of the argument. kek.

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>>144619504
>>144619409
I forgot to add this pic by the way. A 4-frame loop representing water neatly painted on cell to simulate the volume of the water of a ridiculous bad animated analogical anime.

>>144619597
>We know, dumbass
That must be why you claimed that cel animation doesn't have texture in your last post.

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>>144619597
>Texture can be conveyed through the composition of the image itself, not just through the material used to create it.
If it isn't about the material, why would cell animation have the advantage over digital, then?

>>144617931
>tv budget vs movie budget
I actually prefer modern animation dont know why I come to this threads just to have an aneurysm

>>144611806
why is this the best movie?

>>144619768
I'm not:
>>144618438
I'm:
>>144619031
Lurk moar.

>>144619584
I like modern anime and I thought Rakugo was just okay.

>>144617380
>You can't really draw explosions
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/17866/animated-artist_unknown-debris-effects-fire-kyouka

https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/17880/animated-artist_unknown-effects-explosions-fightin

>>144619307
Keep lapping up your samey glitter covered turds, you fucking newfag.

>>144619782
It doesn't.
You must tell this to this guy:
>>144615952

But even tough Digital animation can much easier use different effects to increment its art, most of digital anime feels cheap and artificial when compared to cheap analogical composed cell animation.

That was the main point.
The retarded that came up with the texture argument was just retarded, please ignore this argument.

Your example looks like shit, by the way.

>>144612060
>it allows for more shit on the screen therefore its good

I don't know if you realize this, but that literally means better animation quality, anon.

>>144620030
Are you retarded? That means BETTER COMPOSITION, not better "movement simulation".

The amount of retards in this threads that don't know basics about how animation works but still dares to regurgitate dumbass baseless opinions baffles me.

>>144619910
I know this'll sound pretentious and I just don't care:
If you think Rakugo was anything less than a 9/10, you didn't understand it from a narrative and thematic viewpoint, and you clearly don't understand the various conventions that plague the direction of most dramas and art representations, and how Rakugo subverts them. It may sound strange, given how different the two shows are on a basic level, but I think a good comparison can be made by watching an episode of Rakugo then an episiode of Barakamon. They both have similar styles of direction but Rakugo's is just so much tighter, emotive and ingenuitive.

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Nichijou is the best example I can give in a single anime of why digital animation is better than cell animation. It allows for so many different coloring styles, while cell animation always has the same similar line art and the same similar coloring.

Digital animation can look very different if you choose to, it can look like pic related

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>>144620302
or it can look like this

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Mitsuo Iso's work in Blood and Rahxephon are also good examples of digital colouring and effects.

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>>144620340
or like this

>>144620111
>That means BETTER COMPOSITION, not better "movement simulation".

I never said that it had better "movement simulation" because it had more quality in it's frames, I just meant that it had better quality in its frames which is literally animation you idiot.

It is obviously implied in the discussion that the FPS (i.e. "movement simulation") has to be comparable or better than the original, otherwise, there would be no discussion, and otherwise I wouldn't have challenged your opinion.

Assuming this, I replied to your comment. More detailed frames in animation obviously translate to an increase in animation quality, the fact that you were unable to recognize that was just the most retarded thing I had ever heard so I just had to reply.

The fact that i have to spell all this out to you just makes you all the more retarded.

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>>144620302
Yeah, no. Girls und Panzer was a better example:
>>144618049

Nichijou art style is dull
The fact it has an unusual large quantity of shots animated at 24cells per second is not a reflection of superior digital quality.
The excessive overlays of "speed lines" doesn't make it more beautifully animated either.
It's a bad example from a bad anime overrated anime.
I still prefer the art and animation of good well animated 90's ovas, such as Cowboy, Bebop, Gunbuster or Birdy the Mighty

>they think cel animation is better than Ufotable's digital graphic
plebs

>>144620573
>Girls und Panzer was a better example
Not the anon you replied to, but why? GuP looks unremarkable at best and hideous at worst.

>>144620573
>Yeah, no. Girls und Panzer was a better example:
That's not what I meant. I meant that Nichijou is the best example of the reason I'm giving. The reason I said was that it allows for more versatility with coloring and artstyles, and Nichijou has a lot of art shifts and different coloring styles, that's why it was the best example of the reason I was giving.

>>144620276
>you didn't understand it from a narrative and thematic viewpoint, and you clearly don't understand the various conventions that plague the direction of most dramas and art representations, and how Rakugo subverts them
What do you actually mean by this? What conventions are being subverted in the show?

>>144620518
> I just meant that it had better quality in its frames which is literally animation you idiot.
No, that is not "literally animation"
and "better quality in its frames" is so ambiguous and generic that means nothing without further elucidation.
>I replied to your comment.
That wasn't originally mean, but fine, newfriend, my stand is the same.
>More detailed frames in animation obviously translate to an increase in animation quality,
That is a falso correlation.
Animation quality is not defined by a large quantity of elements composed in a frame. It's define, mostly, by a consistent unique elaborated art style transmitting a smooth organic movement. You don't need 8 layers of cells to do that.

Digital animation allows for more technical liberties, which can give better opportunities and a better use of funding for an animation, but it almost always reflects on a more limited artistic and organic style. That was the main point.

>The fact that i have to spell all this out to you just makes you all the more retarded.
The fact you don't see all the false correlation and falacies in your empty argumentation makes YOU the retard.

>>144620623
>hideous at worst
I agree.
But is the best example of why digital animation has its plus sides because it would be technically impossible to be done fully analogical. The battles would have to be severely toned down and simplified.

>>144611806
CG=/=digital animation

This whole thread triggers my autism for my love of animation and animated motion pictures.

I hate you all. Except you. Yeah, you. I love you.

>>144620811
*less organic
*false
*me instead of mean

Stupid auto-corrector.

>>144620932
I-I don't know what to say. I'm flattered

>>144616041
Weird, I recall there being a lot of cel work in the documentary.

Digital animation is not neccesarily bad, but cell animation, especially on BD, just looks sweet thanks to the texture. Compare for example the first season of Galaxy Angel to the others on BD. While the entire show is low budget as can be with healthy amounts of off figure characters, the first just looks so much better because of the linework, texture and the fact that any remaster simply isn't an upscale.

>>144612504
>Can't use blur
But you can. You totally can.

FLCL is good digital animation. Hyouka isn't.

>>144610974
thanks for making me realized how painfull it is to draw plane in 2D in time constraint. The budget to hire the animator and tweener will be more expensive than CG

>>144620793
>narrative and thematic
That's gonna take a long-ass time to explain myself, here's a vid that sums up a lot of what I would have said:
https://www.youtube.co/watch?v=TFoS07NpS3k

>What conventions are being subverted in the show?
The greatest example is the rakugo itself. So many series, when presenting a performance, instantly go for two approaches: the audience POV approach, where the camera is set from the perspective of people in audience watching the performance itself, or/and the close-up action approach, where we get to see what is happening in the performance as if we were right next to it. Which work and are serviceable. This show does use these too, but in ways which are far more expressive. The show will often switch between showing us the performer from the audiences POV, to showing us the audience from the performer's POV, giving a sense of how their moods are affecting one another, which is an aspect of Kikuhiko's development; realising that his rakugo creates a relationship with the audience where his actions affect them, and their reactions affect him. And then, the way in which the direction uses close-up action shots to convey the tone which he creates. In the first episode, when we see him perform Shinigami, the shots are dynamic and use different angles to convey which character is speaking in the story itself, displaying how enrapturing his rakugo is; he has enveloped the audience to the point where they see him in a different light depending on which character he is conveying. However, when in the flashback we see his first ever rakugo performance, the shots are static and only show him from unvaried, simple angles, mainly mid-length shots of him simply sat on stage in the middle of the screen, and close-ups of his sweaty, panicked face, displaying how uninvested the audience are in his mediocre perfomance; they can't see him as the characters he's meant to be conveying at all, just a nervous first-timer babbling to himself.

1/2

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>>144622053
Why do all these video essayists enunciate exactly the same?

>>144614990
You're the problem with /a/

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>>144620793
>>144622053
And then, there's the parts where the show completely disregards all conventions, and decides to show the affect the rakugo is having on both the audience and the performer through symbolism. This is done a fair few times throught the many performances displayed in the show, but for me the most striking and memorable one is in Kikuhiko's performance of Shinigami after his mentor dies. In the story itself, a man tries to transfer a flame from one candle to another, bc a shinigami tells him that he will be allowed to carry on living if he can do so. He fails, and all the candles around him flicker out as he dies. On stage, this is intially shown in a standard way with Kikuhiko simply facing the auduience and talking. But as he nears the end of the story, another version of himself, symbolic of the shinigami appears behind him, and candles appear in the air all around him. When he reaches the end, the candles disappear, and everything but the stage itself is left in complete darkness. This is a visual representation of Kikuhiko's realisation that, without his mentor, the last person he was truly close to, in his life he has been left all alone. Not even the audience can form a connection with him now.

2/2

>>144622172
I initially wrote that post to be way longer, then massively shortened it down to an actually digestable size. I imagine most other "video essayists" do the same, and thus end up with similar styles of enunciation.

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>>144620394

>>144620394
>Rahxephon
>480p master
>you will never see Rahxephon in a decent Resolution
Utterly disgusting.

>>144620573
>art style is dull
How, nigger? It's got a massive variety of styles and techniques.

>>144622748
>no shading
>looks like it's drawn by a 10-year-old
>not dull

>>144622053
>>144622640
So basically it has some reasonably interesting themes and solid direction. The problem is that the show often isn't terribly entertaining to watch on a moment to moment basis. Although Kikohiko is an interesting enough character in a vacuum, his interactions with other people are not and this brings the show down in my opinion. He's pretty much just a no nonsense type guy when dealing with others and everything he does is defined by this. He never says or does anything particularly unexpected or interesting and he's really just not very entertaining because he doesn't do anything very interesting, or really much of anything at all. This goes for a majority of the other characters as well. There's just not much nuance in how they are positioned with one another.

>>144622824
>no shading
Oh, you're one of those fags.

>>144622177
tell me how I'm wrong?

Story > art

>>144622875
That's a valid complaint, but it never really affected me while watching the show. I guess I was too caught up in everything the show was doing well to be affected by what it was doing poorly.

>>144620276
>>144622053
Jesus Christ, you really need to get your autism under control.

>>144622916
The two are interconnected.

>>144623015
Well, that was a quick fucking turnaround from "anyone who doesn't think it's a 9/10 or better can't possibly understand it."

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>>144619584
>>144622053
You have shit taste, newfag. No work completely oblivious to the inherent traits of its medium will ever be a masterpiece. Rakugo was trying to be a film, and if it was a film, it wouldn't have been anything more than snubbed oscar bait. Since by your rhetoric and 'criticism', you're very clearly one of droves of aspiring post-00s net self-educated self-identified cinephiles, take word from Peter Greenaway's very relevant critique of abusing a medium in imitation of another - almost always for the sake of petite bougie who need their culture washed down: their theatre in films, their films in anime.

And still your pathetic analysis hardly vindicates Rakugo on cinematic terms.
>The show will often switch between showing us the performer from the audiences POV, to showing us the audience from the performer's POV, giving a sense of how their moods are affecting one another
Rather than an exception, this is a given. It's a basic extension of shot/counter-shot, the most fundamental persuasive technique of modern cinema. To use it any speech to a crowd is present in every stripe of mainstream direction all the way down to Lifetime made for TV romcoms. It's hardly a fucking subversion rather basic directorial competency to expand a persuasive technique in line with the narrative; though in this case, it's incompetency: that Rakugo's director would storyboard the anime as if it was a film with a camera, and not fucking animation.

You've got a lot to learn about both anime and cinema, pedant. Have this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGUgFC0668k

>>144623144
to an extent, and not always. Still, a story can make up for shit art. Shit art cannot make up for a bad story.

>>144623271
The problem is that the art (by which I assume you mean the audiovisual stuff) is part of how the story is told. That means that if the art is good then at least one aspect of the story is good, that aspect being the visual one. Now you can still have a bad script that fails to support the visual aspects of the story, and you can also have visuals that fail to support a good script (though I agree that the latter tends to be better than the former). All that said though, the two are still interconnected. You can never completely separate the two.

>>144623261
>>144622053
I can't tell which of you is more insufferable.

>>144623160
I still think it's a 10/10 despite it's flaws. I don't buy into "something can only be a 10 if it's perfect" crap. Nothing is perfect by as general standard. But I see Rakugo as perfect by my own standard because there was no point in it that felt like it compromised with the message it was trying to convey and it kept me constantly entertained, something VERY few things can. However, you don't agree and there's obviously nothing I can do to convince you otherwise, because you're looking for different things in the show than me. You want interesting character drama, I want a well directed metaphor about how art is forced to change through history and that's exactly what the show gave me. The character interactions may not have been entertaining to you, but they perfectly portrayed the battle between different beliefs about art in a metaphorical sense, and I loved that. We're judging the show by very different standards and now that I realise that, there's no pointn in arguing over it anymore. If anything, I'm just glad I was able to spread info on what the show has to offer outside of just single layer drama.

>>144623467
So what, any show with decent metaphor and themes gets an automatic 10/10 from you?

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>>144623271
Go back to /v/. lots of good anime use a completely worthless or even nonexistant story as a vehicle for the animation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbyInLTbXGM

It's only a problem if the shit story gets in the way rather than taking the backseat

>>144623426
Thanks for sharing

>>144623467
I don't care about 90% of what you just said, I'm just pointing out that
>However, you don't agree and there's obviously nothing I can do to convince you otherwise, because you're looking for different things in the show than me.
is, again, a hell of a lot different from what you said in >>144620276

>>144623590
>go back to /v/
Not him, but I thought the /v/ stereotype was that they judged everything by graphics and were obsessed with framerate and pixels?

>>144615952
Your not alone. Keep having better taste. Don't let retards bullshit you

>>144619307
If it took 8 months for 1 cour people would probablly care more about what they were creating again leading to more attention to detail and craft. As it stands now there's the BD fix bullshit and a complete saturation of the market. Nothing you said was a negative.

>>144610974
>MUH CELS, MUH SHADING

Back to >>>/m/ faggot

>>144620890
Only Ramiel is CG on that video.

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>>144623631
Not really anymore, that was more related to system wars. but with the increase of 'cinematic' and 'art' games over the last 5 years, ""gameplay can make up for shit story. shit story cannot make up for bad gameplay" has become a common platitude

It's mostly true but also reactionary and misleading. Narrative, for example, is very often tied into the game mechanics themselves. People make the mistake of thinking that only the story delivered in non-gamic forms, ie a narrator's dialogue or cutscenes, is the story present in a game

In reality they're not so easily separated except in the most basic commercial titles - the same with anime's story and art

For every 1 anime that makes good use of digital techniques, there are 15 that would have been better served with the restrictions of cel.

>>144623911
Not really, they would likely have been even more mediocre with cels.

>>144623261
>entire first paragraph
Saying that certain types of stories should be constrained to specific mediums is pointless and only reduces creative freedom.

>second paragraph
I'm not saying that usage of shot/countershot doesn't exist. I'm saying that it isn't often used in representations of artistic performance. But Rakugo not only uses it frequently and well, it uses it in a way which helps to convey a central aspect of the main character's development and the nature of performance as art.

>>144623561
A show which perfectly does what it sets out to do does, yeah. If at any point Kikuhiko had acted out of character to create interesting drama, it would've broken the metaphor of him as a representation of traditionalists who believe that art dies when it changes. He always acts the same way because he repesents a staunch set of beliefs. Having him deviate from that would've been cheap writing done only for the sake of keeping the audience entertained while disregarding the entire message. But he never deviated, and the show overall never turned to cheap writing.

>>144623603
I changed my mind when I realised we were looking at the show completely differently. It has flaws as a drama. But I don't look at it as a drama. I look at it as something more that can only define itself as "drama" because "metaphorical allegory" doesn't really work in marketing and would just confuse potential veiwers.

>>144623631
The stereotype for /v/ is usually just whatever the anon using the term "go back to /v/" dislikes the most. Don't take it too seriously

>>144623944
It would have been better that they weren't made then.

This whole 35 studios fighting over scraps shit is silly. The industry would be much better consolidated into like 10 or 12 studios. Not enough talent and money to go around as is.

>>144619782
sharpness and color levels

>>144624017
>they're better in digital than they would have been in cel
>It would have been better that they weren't made then.
This is the dumbest counterargument I've heard in ages.

>>144624092
Not really.

It's unlikely that those mediocre shows would be financially viable given how much more expensive cel was and how less productive it made the entire process.

So with digital, we get a lot of companies that can barely make ends meet producing shows that simply would have never been made 16+ years ago.

The hit/miss rate for anime today is fucking pathetic. With 100+ new anime a year we end up with maybe 3 or 4 actually worth a damn.

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>>144623977
>Saying that certain types of stories should be constrained to specific mediums is pointless and only reduces creative freedom.
That's not what I suggested. Bluntly exporting the toolkit of cinema to an entirely different medium is not good artistry. It can be inspired and sensitive, Rakugo was not, showing no awareness of animation's qualities, as the other anons already pointed out even with its art direction. And wearing your toolkit on your sleeve doesn't make for good artistry, either, movie or not - even if does mean you can embark on amateur criticism to help make yourself feel smart.

>I'm not saying that usage of shot/countershot doesn't exist. I'm saying that it isn't often used in representations of artistic performance.
Except it is. Any movie that's going to needs to evoke rousing or inspirational emotions in the audience based on a stage performance, a speech or what have you will do exactly that. We've all seen it countless times. It's very common - and usually only present in less venerable films.

>>144624158
No, it's a shit argument. For one, there's no real connection between "shows that would not have been amde on cel," and "shows that are not worth making," unless you're really telling me that that happens to be exactly where your personal arbitrary line of quality is drawn. For another, "It's unlikely that those mediocre shows would be financially viable" isn't even true - if you actually watch old anime, rather than only watching high-budget OVAs and a handful of well-produced popular favorites, you will see massive droves of visually mediocre works cutting corners to save budget.

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>>144623977
>The stereotype for /v/ is usually just whatever the anon using the term "go back to /v/" dislikes the most. Don't take it too seriously

>>144624158
narrative quality is not comparable to it animation or visual presentation imo. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

>>144624329
>salt
This is my stereotype for /v/. Go back.

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>>144623261
I'm not the one you quoted but your criticism is utterly ridiculous.

Your criticism that an anime "was trying to be a film" is idiotic, the same criticism can be transported to most films, as they "are trying to be literature".
A recurring criticism for cinema is how it's an incomplete art. It's not as good as literature, it's not as good as photography and is not as good as dramaturgy. .

In the end that criticism is inherently flawed, as assuming that a multi-mediatic medium as art has to be constrained in expressing its content by exploiting all its technical dimensions to the limit to its uttermost is simply false.

Cinema, Literature and Animation all share a same basic spine: A TIMED NARRATIVE.

As long as the narrative is well conveyed, that will suffice.

There are, of course, Animations and movies that tries to focus more on the visual aspect than the literature aspect, and most of those films are mostly artsy and experimental. You could argue that those kinda of pieces are more trully connected to their medium or related to plastic art, but them again, what is the purpose of art? To exploit its technical aspects to the limit or just to cause "Awe" and sublimation?

Even if what causes that awe is just an story per se, independently of the medium it was originally conveyed, it is not your call to make to criticize how an animation is just a second plane to a good story.

You could argue that in an experimetal artsy plastic animation with no focus on back story per se, the narrative is secondary to the visual experiment, and that would be "the true art form for animation".
But that is NOT what we seek in anime. So in the end, this view is irrelevant.
Animation and Film have been established as different forms to convey a story.
In the end, the purest form of intellectual art is literature. Nor animation nor film can exist without narrative behind it. No matter how visually abstract or experimental.

>>144623977
>A show which perfectly does what it sets out to do does, yeah.
Do you actually think that Rakugo wasn't setting out to be a good drama? Do you really think the creator intended for the show to be purely metaphorical first and foremost and that the drama elements would take a backseat? Because if that's the case it makes very little sense given how much focus is given to the character drama.

>If at any point Kikuhiko had acted out of character to create interesting drama, it would've broken the metaphor of him as a representation of traditionalists who believe that art dies when it changes. He always acts the same way because he repesents a staunch set of beliefs.
I'm not asking them to do out of character crap or contrive a story, I'm just asking for some nuance. I'm asking for the characters to not respond to situations in such predictable ways. And moreover the whole point of that video you linked was that these characters are actually people and don't purely represent ideas and that they contradict themselves regularly. Kiko isn't a traditionalist, he doesn't care a whole ton about Rakugo at all, it's just a thing for him to do to feel like he has purpose.

What a bunch of bull coming from a person asserting how the only people who don't like the show don't get it just a few posts ago. Seems like you don't understand it yourself and are just pretending to see a metaphorical masterpiece when it's really just a pretty good character drama.

>>144624348
Narrative isn't separable from the visual presentation and animation.

>>144624370
>In the end, the purest form of intellectual art is literature. Nor animation nor film can exist without narrative behind it. No matter how visually abstract or experimental.
That's assuming that narrative is something unique to language. Narrative can be expressed in ways that don't require the written word in any form.

>>144624421
But were not here to talk about the narrative per say.

The original argument was if people felt that cell is better than digital coloring and compositing.

But hey this /a/ and they usually go off topic.

So meh, i've given my two cents anyways so bye.

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>>144616204
> The frames of the Rebuilds were drawnn on a computer with a mouse. Hence digital animation.
> drawnn on a computer
> with a mouse
> Hence digital animation
This is like the most hilarious shit I've read this week. Here's your reply, anon. You earned it.

>>144624449
>literature is not the same as narrative
That was precisely what I was saying.
One thing is a "story", another thing is the narrative: The way that story is exposed. And another thing is the medium how the narrative is built with.

Animation and Film can't exist without a narrative.
And narrative can't exist without a story.

But Literature =! story.
Literature is a story being told in WORDS.

Post THAT ufotable scene

>>144622916
Because they are inseparable. That's like talking about literature and saying story>prose.

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>>144624370
>Your criticism that an anime "was trying to be a film" is idiotic, the same criticism can be transported to most films, as they "are trying to be literature".
http://variety.com/2003/voices/columns/toward-a-re-invention-of-cinema-1117893306/

>A TIMED NARRATIVE.
You mean linear or sequential, literature isn't timed

>it is not your call to make to criticize how an animation is just a second plane to a good story.
I did not

>Animation and Film have been established as different forms to convey a story.
Yes, and they have methods best fit to their mediums to convey those stories. Hamfistedly taking the tools of one medium to the other will only ever pass as basic entertainment at best

>In the end, the purest form of intellectual art is literature. Nor animation nor film can exist without narrative behind it. No matter how visually abstract or experimental.
Nigger what? Do you think narrative and literature are the same thing? That's quite fucking ironic in a discussion on an anime about oral storytellers which, if you weren't aware, long predates literary tradition

>>144624831
Not him, but people argue content vs. form for literature all the fucking time, just like for basically every other medium.

>>144624725
Then what's the point of saying "literature is the purest for of intellectual art" followed by mentioning how "film and animation cannot exist without narrative" in your first reply? That heavily suggests a connection between the two. So unless you just misspoke you're contradicting yourself.

Moreover, what's the point of mentioning that film requires some sort of narrative? First of all it's not true, you can create a film without narrative though arguably it wouldn't be very compelling, and you could do the same with literature. More importantly though, what is the point of mentioning it at all? Having a narrative has no relation at all to using your medium to the fullest.

>>144624847
>Do you think narrative and literature are the same thing?
No:
>>144624725

>You mean linear or sequential, literature isn't timed
Narrative =! Literature.
Yes, literature isn't timed, but music is, and music has a narrative, an abstract one, but not necessary a story.

A story needs to be built with a delivery "logic" (narrative) . It can be timed or not timed (literature is not-timed, cinema is timed, video game is mostly non-timed)

Being linear or non linear is a different matter.

>I did not
Then further elaborates what you meant by this:
>Rakugo was trying to be a film, and if it was a film,

>http://variety.com/2003/voices/columns/toward-a-re-invention-of-cinema-1117893306/

Seems interesting, I'll read it later but I've been reading articles about the flaws of the cinema ever since I started my story of art classes in graduation 8 years ago. Not really news to me.

>>144624898
Then what's the point of saying "literature is the purest for of intellectual art"
Because most critics of how cinema is not a perfect form of art and focus too much in how literature is superior are only thinking about the story presented intellectually and disregarding the importance of the timing (timed narrative) and the non-verbal form a story can be conveyed (the visual aspects). This is why: "Intellectual" for literature: You have to form the story entirely on your mind.

But art is not supposed to be purely intelectual, not at all.

:followed by mentioning how "film and animation cannot exist without narrative" in your first reply?
That was to counter the critics that Cinema is not as good as photography or paiting, which are the equivalent non-narrative forms of arts that they borrow they visual aspect from.
(Although is arguable that a photo can tell a story even with a single moment freeze in time)

>That heavily suggests a connection between the two. So unless you just misspoke you're contradicting yourself.
Indeed I needed to elaborate further but I reached the 2000 character limit and just wrapped it all up in the last paragraph.

>>144624251
>Bluntly exporting the toolkit of cinema to an entirely different medium is not good artistry.
But it made Rakugo aesthetically pleasing, conveyed its themes well, and kept it consistently evocative. I always knew what both the performer amd the audience were thinking and feeling, and this info was conveyed to me in a way that was interesting to look at. It didn't need to be "inspired and sensitive", it worked just fine without being either of those. It didn't really make use of the animated medium, no, but that isn't a negative. The show being animated didn't decrease it's quality, nor would it being live action have increased its quality. Your statement of it not being "good artistry" is a non-statement. You're not highlighting a negative of the show, nor saying what could be improved about it. You're just saying that you wanted it to be what it wasn't. Go watch a Ghibli movie or some shit shit if you want "inspired and sensitive" direction that "shows awareness of animation's qualities". This has a different style, it uses that style well, and that's fine.

>And wearing your toolkit on your sleeve doesn't make for good artistry, either, movie or not - even if does mean you can embark on amateur criticism to help make yourself feel smart.
Yeah, directors should only use their toolkits in subdued, sneaky manners, so that when you offer your professional criticism, you can feel smart for noticing what the others didn't, right? There's nothing wrong with being unsubtle and showing a passion for and understanding of your craft in your work, and anyone who claims otherwise is far more of a pretentious asshole than I could ever be.

>>144625092
The post you replied to is not saying film is a flawed medium. I don't know how what you're saying relates to the post you responded to in the slightest. Just what exactly was the point of your post? Do you even disagree with with the person you responded to?

Digital animation is objectively inferior and will never achieve the same quality and personality of the old movies and series like akira, bebop, trigun and outlaw star. Go ahead try to prove me wrong.

>>144625219
*subjectively

>>144625219
Akira had a HUGE budget and tonnes of talent.
Bebop looks pretty good, but not necessarily great animation, it's extremely well directed.
Trigun actually looks pretty bad and has boring direction.

>>144610974
there is no defense.

real talk, i know yall love to be "cool" or "contrarian" but just look at dragonball super and compare it to Z.

>>144625219
The only one of those for which that is remotely true is Akira, which has nothing to do with cel animation and everything to do with being a massive collaborative undertaking between most of the industry at the time.

>>144625315
>watching Dragonball
Found your problem. Fuck off, normalfag.

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>>144625219
Those things have good animation because they had good animators, not because drawing on cells somehow makes them better.

Digital animation is objectively superior as a tool because it is way more flexible and doesn't have all the limitations and imperfections of cell animation and analog photography. Cell animation allows for a single artstyle (the one that all the shows you listed have) while digital animation gives you a range or styles that can go from Lucky Star to Space Dandy to Kaguya-hime to G Reco to Mob Physcho 100. It's just infinitely more versatile and can do an infinity of things that cell animation can't do, while being able to do everything cell animation does if it needed.

>>144625176

>The post you replied to is not saying film is a flawed medium.
The way he says that given anime "tried to be a film" in a way that "it didn't explore all the visual aspects an animation should explore" was a faulty argument that was often used to detractors of cinema. I used that to trace a parallel that as how that the technical aspects not being fully explored in inovative ways is not a valid argument to the quality of how a story is conveyed.

From the way the elaborated his test I knew he was aware of this kinda of infamous criticism of cinema as an medium.

>Just what exactly was the point of your post?
Trust me, even if you didn't get the point, the guy I responded to got it.

>>144625219
>trigun

>>144624402
>Do you actually think that Rakugo wasn't setting out to be a good drama?
and
>Do you really think the creator intended for the show to be purely metaphorical first and foremost and that the drama elements would take a backseat?
are separate issues. I think that she attempted to create compelling character drama because no one would read her story if it were just the barebones of a metaphor, but I think that she always intended the story to be a metaphor. I don't think she set out to create a character drama then halfway thriough decided to shove a metaphor into it. I feel like she wanted to write a story about the nature of art, and used the backdrop of rakugo around WWII as the world in which that story could be portrayed. She then populated that world with character representing the influences on rakugo.

>And moreover the whole point of that video you linked was that these characters are actually people and don't purely represent ideas and that they contradict themselves regularly.
Wow, it seems like you really don't get it. Did you even watch the video? Kikuhiko's contradictions represent the inherent hypocrisy of the traditionalists. They make him a more rounded character, but his character still never steps out of the bounds of the metaphor. For example, I believe that the reason he is frequently portrayed in Western clothing yet claims to uphold traditional values is to symbolise how the traditionalists claim that they still want rakugo to be Japanese and old-fashioned yet continue to perpetuate its existence in a Japan now consumed by Western and modern influence.

>>144625441
naw im right

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>>144624993
Literature isn't a story told in words, but the written word. Again, it's ironic considering we're discussing an anime on oral storytelling, which is at its most literal "a story told in words"

>Yes, literature isn't timed, but music is, and music has a narrative, an abstract one, but not necessary a story.
What you said was
>Cinema, Literature and Animation all share a same basic spine: A TIMED NARRATIVE.
That's not true, literature isn't timed

>Then further elaborates what you meant by this:Rakugo was trying to be a film, and if it was a film,
I already have, it was the major point of all my points, ie the next answer I gave in that post. What did you mean by
>criticize how an animation is just a second plane to a good story
? It doesn't seem relevant to that unless I'm misunderstanding you

>I've been reading articles about the flaws of the cinema ever since I started my story of art classes in graduation 8 years ago
I really doubt that. I deleted my comment on the ignorance of
>A recurring criticism for cinema is how it's an incomplete art. It's not as good as literature, it's not as good as photography and is not as good as dramaturgy.
in my first post. It might be a populist interpretation but tell me what theorist or critic has actually tried to argue that the sixth art was incomplete for the fact of its synthesis.

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>>144625119
>Yeah, directors should only use their toolkits in subdued, sneaky manners, so that when you offer your professional criticism, you can feel smart for noticing what the others didn't, right?
To praise a work as great hey really shouldn't be relying on genre toolkits, unless they were deconstructing or satirizing them probably. It's crass and manipulative. Pulp is fun but it's not the intellectual masterpiece you think it is, and it's a lot more enjoyable when they're not in denial about it. Obviously you already believed they were being highly subtle considering you're admittedly smug about being able to see what no one else could. Talking about being obvious because of sheer passion has nothing to do with Rakugo or your original analysis of it. Anyone can see your frame of reference is very limited, newfag. Lurk longer before sharing your opinions.

>>144625492
>Trust me, even if you didn't get the point, the guy I responded to got it.
Nah mate idk what the fuck you're talking about. You keep making new points that some to be connected to each other and you got too many grammar errors and typos in every post to make sense of your argument. Also I agree with that poster, you're suspisciously changing your stance. First explicitly calling literature a timed narrative, than saying literature isn't timed. Literature = narrative, then literature = story told with words. And I don't think you even understood me in the first place

>the technical aspects not being fully explored in inovative ways is not a valid argument to the quality of how a story is conveyed.
This wasn't my argument

>>144625219
Cowboy Bebop has the best cinematography in anime because it used cels.
Digital animation can't look this good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrdKi1wOb4A

>>144625720
>Literature isn't a story told in words, but the written word.
I thought that was implied.
>ie the next answer I gave in that post.
I missed your second post.

>That's not true, literature isn't timed
Correct, I should just have said "Narrative", My bad.

>It doesn't seem relevant to that unless I'm misunderstanding you
That was my deduction: that you claiming an anime trying to be as a film (which is relatively similar medium) was due to its lack of proper exploring the particularities of its medium and just being too common in the other aspects to regular cinema.

>I really doubt that.
That the articles exist or that I have studied story of art? In any event it seems you are shifting to a derogatory way of debating if you have started to doubt me. I have to go to bed now anyway so I'll leave that to your own strengths to find such articles.

Farewell.

>>144625925
>Cowboy Bebop has the best cinematography in anime
lol
>because it used cels.
HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>144626006
>moefag
>>>/v/

>>144625885
I'm just to sleepy, English is not my first language and my smartphone auto-corrector is being a bitch with my freezing fingers. Too bad you couldn't get it. Good night.

>>144626014
>>144626006
>>144625984
Ironic shitposting is just shitposting.

>>144625756
What's the webm from?

>>144625885
>Obviously you already believed they were being highly subtle considering you're admittedly smug about being able to see what no one else could.
No no no, you have the completely wrong idea. I don't think Rakugo is subtle at all with it's direction, but as I literally said later on in that post, I think that's fine. By "Yeah, directors should only use their toolkits in subdued, sneaky manners, so that when you offer your professional criticism, you can feel smart for noticing what the others didn't, right?" I was criticising >>144624251 for suggesting that unsubtle direction is "bad artistry". The "you" there was refering to him.

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>>144625979
>I thought that was implied.
Then it doesn't make sense. There's no reason to tie cinema to literature when it in reality it only shares its roots in an oral storytelling tradition alongside literature.

>I missed your second post.
It was in the very same post you quoted

>Correct, I should just have said "Narrative", My bad.
That doesn't make fucking sense. You said literature is timed narrative, now you mean narrative is timed narrative?

>That was my deduction: that you claiming an anime trying to be as a film (which is relatively similar medium) was due to its lack of proper exploring the particularities of its medium and just being too common in the other aspects to regular cinema.
This is correct

>In any event it seems you are shifting to a derogatory way of debating if you have started to doubt me
It's true, I've been holding it back this whole time

>>144626017
> English is not my first language and my smartphone auto-corrector
Yes this is what I figured. good night.

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>>144612504
>Cell animation only allows for thick black lines with dull colors. Can't use gradients, can't use bloom, can't use blur, etc.

But that's wrong you fucking retard

>>144626151
Don't question the meme. Digitalfags will get mighty angry with you.

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>>144626088
I'm both posters.

>I don't think Rakugo is subtle at all with it's direction
Well, it's not that important, I'm just insulting your attitude. Subtlety isn't what's being discussed here, it was only brought up because I accused you of valuing its ability to deliver smugness.
As I said, what's bad artistry is
>Bluntly exporting the toolkit of cinema to an entirely different medium
It's just absurd to suggest a work could be a masterpiece if all its qualities as a work would be unchanged or improved if done in another medium. It might be a well executed piece of entertainment, but it's not a work of art.

>the show being animated didn't decrease it's quality, nor would it being live action have increased its quality.
The show being animated, given its cinematic direction, held it back. It could have been executed much better as a film, though it's obviously not guaranteed and even probably completely unlikely because of Japanese budgets.

>This has a different style, it uses that style well, and that's fine
But it's not. It's an insult to the medium. There are far worse offenders, but it's still in very poor taste, and even worse to suggest it's a masterpiece. The whole discussion begun with a screenshot sharing its visual style, and it was rightly insulted as a soulless 'tracing over real life.' The anon's analysis that it looks uninspired an dull as dirt wasn't necessarily wrong - as it aptly describes the visual and art direction. The show only impresses with its strong script and storyboarding. But that doesn't save it from its offenses.

>>144625925
>posting a scene from the episode with digital colouring

Not sure if ruseman or just stupid

>>144626151
>Iso digital processing
Okay, this has got to be a ruse.

>>144610974
GAUNAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>144610974
Well, it's obvious that machines were made light gray because they couldn't be sure brightness and contrast are kept intact during the production and broadcasting process to allow drawing something dark gray, like they do now, and not turn it into dark shape.

Or it's just different fads in mecha coloring.

>>144616204
Here's a 4chan gold.

>>144615339
So, 90% of all the games?

>>144626424
>It's just absurd to suggest a work could be a masterpiece if all its qualities as a work would be unchanged or improved if done in another medium. It might be a well executed piece of entertainment, but it's not a work of art.
I don't even like Rakugo, but this attitude has always been and will always be cancer.

>>144626424
I don't see it that way. I don't see how it would be improved by being ported to cinema, I don't see it as an insult, and I think detailed depictions of real life are just as credible as art as a distorted interpretation of reality.

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>>144626570
Only if you view anime as entertainment/craft. If you're going to call one a masterpiece imo, you're viewing it as art; it's not the same as calling it 10/10 entertainment.

Can someone use a tool to copy colors from a high quality screenshot of an analog anime and then just use those colors?

>>144626636
I'm going to be perfectly frank, I don't even get what "art" or qualitative assessments mean once you remove entertainment from the equation. They seem like either meaningless or arbitrary terms if they aren't defined by personal enjoyment.

>>144626680
Not him, but for me art is expression. It's the artists expressing their feelings, thoughts, concepts, whatever. If you feel like info is being conveyed to you by the work you are consuming, then it is art. The anon you were replying to obviously has a FAR narrower definition.

>>144623261
>Rakugo was trying to be a film
what the fuck?

>drawing on paper

Isnt it time for your nap grandpa?

>>144626680
It's a common point of view in anime culture and a really unique and interesting perspective in itself. Hiroki Azuma wrote a crit theory book on otaku culture and its nihilist objectivity and database orientations. If you're interested in an art/crit theory analysis on anime, the Mechademia journal is a good place to start.

Art is a social and cultural institution. It's nothing universal or idealistic.

>>144615211
>>144614994
>>144614502
Ghibli's last show was CGI, and it looked like shit.

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>>144621637
GA's first season looks so fucking soft.

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You will never enjou purely 100% analogic anime masterend in 35 mm fill stock directly from the capture machine with NO COMPUTER correction and played DIRECTLY on an analogical cinema screen projector.

You will only watch DNR bitstarved shitty BD telecines.

Why even live?

>>144610974
4.44 wheeeeeeen?!

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>>144618629

>>144619307
That's not how things work though.

>>144610974
It's cheap, and thus increases the average quality of anime by way of raising the quality floor.

>>144610974
>wider color gamut and dynamic range
>consistent colors, i.e. no green patch in a bush where someone is going to walk through
>no film grain
>no transfer artifacts
>gradient coloring
>better lighting and effects
>things are easier to fix

>>144627105
Ronja is a polygon pictures show though, I doubt Ghibli had much actual involvement with the production.

>>144624693
> with a mouse
tablets are a thing, faggot

>>144614502
>>144615211
>Despite Miyazaki's retirement, it was reported that he is developing a short film, Boro the Caterpillar, which will be screened exclusively at the Studio Ghibli Museum in Mitaka, Tokyo in 2018.
It will be CGI. Just to show the youngsters how to use the new tools properly.