Daily Japanese Thread DJT #1569

How many months of studying did you do before realizing that it's hopeless and gave up?

はやっ

God damn that's a nice picture

Has anybody in here ever attempted to learn classical japanese (feudal era, before meiji restoration)? Please let me know when and why you gave up so I can avoid your mistakes

>>142641372
I will never give up and I won't miss a single day of Anki until the day I die, at which I will then pass up my reps to my first born wifes son.

>>142641280
flawless op

>more fun than doing my reps

top k_e_k

>>142641372
A little over a year, when I realised I was still reading shit for children. It's literally impossible to learn Japanese unless you're autistic enough to spend 19 hours a day on it.

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Looking for help trying to decipher the kanjis in this image. I think I got the first one:

> てめえいつまで仕事サボッリてん？

The second one I got this:

> ふざけないつまでも机あるて黒

But I don't think I'm making much sense, especially that 黒 in the end (it doesn't seem to be any character's name because he has no name) and my kanji knowledge is very limited to know what else it could be that looks like that...

What do Japanese people use when they correct a typo? Like in english we might use an asterisk with the correction or say "err I mean ____" or such.

>>142641372
ネバーギブアップ！

I'm much too far in to give up now anyway ;_;

why should I use Anki when Memrise exists?
serious question

>>142641723
More customizable, more decks, can make your own decks, more intuitive, etc

>>142641027
Thanks, thinking of it like that makes it a bit clearer.

>>142641113
>二つ以上あるもののうちの一つをとりあげてさす語。
I'm not sure I'm understanding this sentence properly because none of the EDICT definitions for とりあげて seem to make sense with this sentence.
>A word to accept(?) and select one thing among two or more (tangible) things.

>>142641722
>sunk cost fallacy
It's never too late to give up.

>>142641717
that last kanji is 思 i'm pretty sure

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>>142641386
>>142641481

Thank you, I have a few more stockpiled that I plan to post but I think this is my favorite one.

>>142641443

There was a guy a few days ago who was an amateur 古文 specialist. Reply chain starts here https://desustorage.org/a/thread/142199111/#142220760

>>142641807
It is when I've based my whole existence on learning it, and without it I'm just some generic unproductive neet

I was just joking anyway, I love learning Japanese, I wouldn't want to give up

I use spoilers too much

How many cards of vocabulary do you have in Anki?
I want to gauge how 出来ない my deck is.
Almost 15000 and I've only seen 6700.

>>142641860
Oh, now it's sorta recognizable as a sentence, thanks!

>>142641721
I want to know too

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おはようおにいちゃん

おやすみおにいちゃん

>>142641788
取る + 上げる = To pick out

To pick out and specifiy one thing out of two or more things

>>142641917
Just passed 10000. Unseen cards is 0, because nowadays I'm mining slower than my daily new cards (30)

How to clear brain fog /djt/

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>>142641917

Just passed 4500. I do all new words the day after I mine them, this has the negative effect of me reading less than I should but my autism will not let me mine more than I do.

>>142642018
Game of dota

>>142642018
relax, or get more sleep if it's less than 7-8 hours.

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>>142641917
This many, all mined, I do have a kanji deck in there too that I've never used which is what most of the unseen's are, could probably just go ahead and delete it now

>>142642018
A bullet

>>142641372
More than 3 years in, still can't read anything but I'm not giving up.

>>142641991
That seems to make sense with the context of the sentence, but how do you get "out" from 上げる?

I tried thinking of the two words separately but all I could come up with was basically what the EDICT definitions said.

>>142642274

take up = pick out

use your imagination anon

>>142642311
I guess I can see the connection, but it's pretty vague. I wouldn't have been able to come to it without someone spelling it out to me.

Anyway, thanks for helping.

>>142642396

No worries, everyone complains about intermediate hell (and it is worse) but all there is to combat intermediate hell is consuming more content. Being stuck in beginner mode requires others' help to get out of.

>>142642274
Imagine picking out a sweet from a jar of sweets

You pick one and then lift it out

取り上げる

There's a lot of shit like that in Japanese, I can see why you'd be confused, but the more you read the less you look at it through an English lens, and the more sense it makes

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>>142641917

>>142641458
>to my first born wifes son

wifes first born son*

nice try though esl kun

>reaching that point where your reading speed can easily keep up with the voice, which acts as an audio text hooker for unknown words
So this is how it feels to climb out of intermediate hell.

Need some help with a sentence, how would you translate this line? Context is guy tired from work saying this:

> こっちは働きたくて働いてるわけじゃねえだ

I'm not really sure about the meaning, I *think* I get it as:
(here is) [(I want to work) (I am working)] (I don't want that)

And even with this I can't really get a good english sentence... help please.

>>142642761
Hello there newfag.

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>>142641722
>ネバー

>>142642810
the meme is still there, i just corrected your shit grammar.

>>142642809
It's not like I'm working because I want to work.

>>142642809
I-it's not like I WANT to work or anything, b-baka!

>>142642891
Maaaaaany thanks!

>>142642974
Also こっち means I (the speaker) in that sentence.

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>>142642795
You're still in it, anon.

>>142642795
Hate to be the one to tell you this anon, but that's pretty much the start of intermediate hell

How do you make rikai sama parse a certain part instead of what it is doing automatically?

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>>142643287
Intermediate hell is an overrated meme. Propagating this belief gives people a placebo effect in making them think that they're suffering more than they actually are. After reading a couple LNs/VNs, the ability to recognise kanji improves exponentially to the point where you can easily guess the meaning of phrases (although one might be inclined to check its exact meaning).

>But I'm tired of having to look up words occasionally!

Then make the process easier. It's only suffering if you think it's suffering. Rather than lamenting your misfortune of having your rhythm broken, why not focus on comprehending and enjoying whatever you're reading?

That's my view on 'intermediate hell', anyway.

>>142643856
t. intermediate barbossa

>>142643856
*nocebo

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>>142643856
Intermediate hell is for people who dream of fluency. Obviously if you don't care about that you're content with the level you're at.

>>142643856
I thought it just meant the point where vocabulary starts to overtake grammar as your main obstacle

>>142643977
スコー

>>142643980
>there are people in this thread who still don't know the sentence after 我輩は猫である

Anyone know a good JP<->SP dictionary, as good as Jisho? Sometimes I'm curious about the Spanish definition of a word, because it may translate better than to English.

Not sure if here's a good place to ask but... is there any place where I can find english expressions?

For example an expression when someone is picking on the same thing over and over, how can I find it?

> ねちねちいびられたので

>>142642018
Eat your vegetables.

>>142643980
Yeah pretty much.

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>>142633678
cont.
1/17 through kanjidamage list. By this time it's clear that majority of ons are just consonant sound + vowel sound and using kana for rows/columns was a mistake, or, rather, Japanese made a mistake by projecting Chinese characters onto their language. Kanji would be more naturally presented with letters of a language which isn't fucked by Japanese syllable system. Thus, table should be rearranged as such:
1) use vowels/consonants for rows/columns (place kanji with longer readings according to first two sounds?)
2) remove kuns (unless they are used in jukugo?), if space allows, write kuns next to their respectice kanji

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>>142645145
I'm trying, but when meeting a sentence where I understand every word but can't put together the meaning of the sentence. I just feel like I'll always be 出来ない

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How often do you hit that "Easy" button?
What makes you decide if you've got it well or not?

Be specific.

>>142645345
I hit it when I've already picked that word up from reading practice. Otherwise I never hit it.

>>142645345
I never hit it on new cards, even if I know the card I never feel like I know it well enough for an easy, I mine my shit on a day by day basis

>>142645329
That's the symptom of lack of anime watching

>>142645345
I hit it when the intervals given look too short, obviously.

>>142645345
I hit easy on every katakana word that came up in core

>>142645536
Delete them instead dummy. You're just slowing down the learning process by them taking away new cards slots.

>>142645536
I delete every katakana word that has the same meaning as it's english counterpart. I don't want them to bloat my reviews.

>>142645345
I'll usually only hit easy in 3 scenarios.

1) It's a word I knew, but got confused with another because I was going too fast the previous day.
2) It's in katakana and I figure out the meaning before the flop.
3) If it's some sort of conjugation of previous vocabulary and I manage to both pronounce and define it before the flop.

Beyond that, I'll almost go exclusively "good" or "hard".

切腹（せっぷく）
腹切（はらきり）

いいね

>来てくれなければすべてをバラいます。
バラって何？
私全然わかない。

>>142645345

Basically, when it's so easy that it might as well be English.

I might also do it when I get a familiar word wrong (due to a mental lapse or just the fact that I haven't seen it in a while), hit again, get it right, and then the next day rolls around.

>>142645725
よくないよ

>>142645821
よくないっていう人の方がよくない死ねよゴミ

>>142645725
まだ早く過ぎです

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>>142645880

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So how many of these Kamige have you read already /djt/?

>>142642761
You're the one who's wrong, anon.
He clearly intends to marry and impregnate his own eldest daughter, establishing the male offspring as his Anki successor.

>>142646079
Baldr Force, Baldr Sky in Japanese, Fate and Sengoku Rance in English, and reading Sakura no Uta right now.

>>142645768
>バラいます
「バラします」の間違いじゃね

>>142641280
The OP is getting too sophisticated, holy shit.

>Drawfag Japanese Thread (DJT°

>>142646079
5 I guess, counting the SKYs as one of course
Maybe I should finally get around to playing rance

YU-NO I'd also like to play but I'm not sure I could handle it unless it gets an upscale

>>142643977
I aim to have 100% reading comprehension, but I never give myself negative feedback about intermediate hell.

I think anyone who seeks to improve their comprehension can at least relate to the concept of intermediate hell regardless of whether they are aiming for fluency.

>>142643980
That happens really early on. A more specific description would be the feeling of frustration caused by having to look up words constantly despite the fact that you've been learning Japanese for x number of years.

>>142647607
You're probably taking the phrase too seriously. I don't feel discouraged by the hell I just know I'm in for a long time and it's just a fun way to describe it.

>>142647745
Fair enough

I also found that dropping anki helped a lot with making learning less of a chore (I was at ~7000 mature though) giving me more motivation to read

Behold the sounds of one fluent in Japanese and weep at your inadequacy.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Dx6AAd7BVA

How do you know when you've become intermediate?

>>142646309
はい、そうです。
私間違いこのミス。それで、君の意見、何が意味その「バラします」って。

>>142648120
That term is very vague. I would say it's just the difference between knowing barely any words, to knowing most, to knowing all; the difference between being unable to make sentence, to being able to make broken sentences in almost every case, to being able to make proper sentences in all cases. You know. Being good, but not great.

>>142648019
Man it's so painful to hear the american R in japanese

>>142648149
ggrks

>>142648120
This >>142643980
As has been said it happens pretty early on,but nonetheless I think it makes you intermediate. It means you're better at comprehension than almost anyone who is still taking japanese classes, and are probably nearing N2.

A slightly higher requirement would be "When you feel like you are capable of reading even difficult VNs, but it's still a pain in the ass"

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What car does /djt/ drive?

>>142648245
えええ、そんな。。
面倒くさいです。

>>142648019
You kinda sound like an even worse version of Peter off of JapanesePod101

Also you should be doing ASMR with all those god damn mouth smacking sounds

>>142648553
Yeah, he kind of sounds like a sadder Peter. Couldn't listen to the whole thing because it was painful. Swallow your spit before you record like damn.

>>142648019
Kinda sad that you actually recorded it, probably more than once, listened to it and thought yes this is good. Then posted it. How retarded does one person have to be to go through all that and not realize it's stupid?

This might sound ridiculous, but is it worth learning if I have no intention of living in Japan? I just like Japanese films and literature. Plus it would be a hobby now that I don't care about video games.

>>142648855
What else are you going to do?

This might sound ridiculous, but is it worth eating cake if I have no intention of being a baker? I just like eating Cheesecake and Sachertorte. Plus it would be fun to eat now that I don't care about ice cream.

>>142648985
That's sort of what I'm asking. I have quite a structured life but have removed vidya from it. I wondered if learning a language, an insanely difficult one no less, is worthwhile.

Does learning a language have other benefits like keeping your brain active, helping with memory etc.

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>>142648402
bike

>>142649001
terrible post

>>142648812
Maybe he didn't actually think it was good?

>>142649078
Maybe you should stop posting then, retard, this isn't your blog

>>142649095
>autism

>>142649066
Someone's mad that they didn't get anyone to hold their hand.

Should I bother learning Jinmeiyou kanji or is it useless?

>>142649400
Learn at least 4k kanji before you start on vocab

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>>142648855
>>142649046
Do it for her.

>>142649400
At least half of them are used in common words.

>>142648855
If you want to read VN/LN/books then sure, most of the best ones are never getting translated.

>>142641917
8500 cards, 3800 of them mined, the rest are remnants of core6k I deemed worthy.
Like 60 cards unseen and I'll be out of them tomorrow so gotta read some more.

>>142649046
The end result itself probably won't be worth the required effort, unless you exclusively consume Japanese media and is really starved for translations. You might find that you enjoy the language learning process, though, and the satisfaction you get from exploring and getting better at a new language. That on it's own, or in combination with the end result, achieving functional fluency and the ability to freely consume Japanese material, might be enough. But you won't know unless you give it a try.

>>142641917
6k and I almost never come across something new worth adding

>>142642119
>557 cards in 30 minutes
速っ！！

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>it's a new ドラマ

>>142642795
>which acts as an audio text hooker for unknown words
It doesn't explain what the words mean, though.
And the dialogue is almost always the easy part, the true horror is usually in the narration.

>>142644267
名前はまだ無い
I got bored about 3 paragraphs in, though.

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>>142650263
>it's a long running アニメ

>>142650338
>I got bored about 3 paragraphs in, though.
Either you have shit taste or you couldn't read it.

>>142650263
Where do you download your dramas from?

>>142648812
>>142648771
>>142649095
Geez, you guys need to do a better job of hiding your jealousy.

>>142650442
Torrents from jdramacity, the poor man's option

>>142650419
Maybe even both. I don't really get serious literature so it doesn't bother me much.

>>142650610
Man, I miss d-addicts

>>142650806
I didn't even learn it had died until 5 minutes ago. Fuck.

What's the most common way to spell 山城 as a name? It's the name of a doujinshi artist, and I can't find any mention of it in kana or anything anywhere

>>142650856
Sanshiro

>>142646166
I kekkled.

>>142650856
Probably やまぎ

>>142651009
Mm I guess I'll just go with that

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祟
崇

>>142651585
d

b

>>142651585
>祟
>出示

>崇
>山宀示

>>142651585
R T K
T
K

>>142642018
Sleep.

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私たちはＤＪＴへ急ぎました

>>142652011
I did it, both cards probably got like a year interval. In retrospect that was completely pointless, heh.

>>142652706
What if you just woke up though

That sometimes happens to me and persists through the day

>>142653355
First try going back to sleep.

If that doesn't work, coffee/redbull.

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http://may.2chan.net/b/res/413065536.htm

I like to browse 2chan to better understand Japan internet slang and simultaneously deepen my weeb. Commonly in the thread I see たておつ. Do you know what this means? I can't for the life of me seem to find out.

How much does shipping cost from amazon japan to yurope? On books and mango.

How much time do/did you put into studying? Did you give up already?
And don't you dare include anki time

スレの中身は読んでないが今回もきっと下らへん内容ばっかだよなあ

（【トリガー警告】前回のジョークの続き【ハイレベル】【グーグル】）

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzkpVJUNaJg

>>142653730
デ・キ・ナ・イ

>>142653868
A lot, but you do get them like 3 days later

Why not go on there and add your shit to basket and it'll tell you

>>142653730
乙 means 'thank you', as in thanks for the thread, right? Although I think I've seen it used ironically. Maybe たておつ means "genuinely thank you for the thread I'm going to bump it now"? Since the people saying it seem to like the thread and are contributing to it.

>>142653730
> I can't for the life of me seem to find out.
Did you even try?
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/a/%E4%B9%99

>>142653967
I just saw the page where it lists them

For anyone curious:

>900 Yen for book order
>300 Yen on top of that for every item you add
>meanwhile Japanese people can buy a 500 Yen LN with free shipping delivered to them in two days

So yeah... fuck. I almost want to move to Japan only because all the stuff I'm interested in is mega cheap to get.

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>>142654032
>Maybe たておつ means "genuinely thank you for the thread I'm going to bump it now"? Since the people saying it seem to like the thread and are contributing to it.

>>142654032
my girlfriend says たておつ when my 3 inch dick gets hard

>>142654143
Yeah it's pretty depressing that the delivery's more expensive than the actual shit you order, I'd have a library in my house by now if I could buy off of there without the delivery cost

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>tfw its reps time again

if you get scooped that bad for shipping you deserve it

theres places that know how to put things in one box and send it to you you know

>>142654387
I've no idea what you're talking about, amazon does put it into one box.

>>142654364
You should just do them when you wake up, it's not nearly as painful when you're half asleep

>>142654429
yeah i mean not amazon try a real store

>>142654490
Either doesn't have half the selection or is as expensive if not more.

I'm at the level where I can read LNs fairly well but I hate the fact that I have to essentially commit to 5 or more books when I start a particular series. Anyone else dislike this? I want to expose myself to different authors.

yeah i guess theres just no other way to buy anything but to just pay the per item shipping of amazon what a shame

>>142654840
>that I have to essentially commit to 5 or more books when I start a particular series
You don't?

>>142654840
you dont have to do shit dude do what you feel like at a time

help

was using rikai import on a word and accidentally pressed t instead of r

what does t do? should i delete the card and do it over?

I see it's 'jamal' kills the thread by shitposting hour.

>>142654888
I don't want to drop something if I enjoy it, though. I know there used to be a few people here who read a lot of LNs. If you're still around, how do you do this? Do you read every book in a series or skip around?

>>142655007
Is this how autism sounds like?

Can someone help me out here?

What's the くつ？

ラマスと一緒に白竜の洞くつへ探検に行くんだろ？

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>>142645143
On table is 10% complete and mindless copypasting starts to tire me out. At least I managed to fit it on one screen.

>>142655007
Just find short LNs if you feel like that, I know how you feel though, I love Kino no Tabi but I've been reading it for so long, wanna move onto some other shit

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>>142654840
>彼は日本語を習った
キサマ

>>142655156

洞窟

>>142655273
Looks a lot more readable than it was before

is there any way to get only specific words to show their picture in core?

i just want it for food so i can remember them easier

>>142655007
i read when i feel like reading and i can stop anywhere on a page and not worry about it and come back to it later after reading something else

i just do whatever i want

>>142655324
my rooms hella yomiko readman but i cant read any of it

but im sure i would love them all if i could

>>142655301
I might just stick to the very new popular releases until I can read Japanese quickly enough to blow through the longer classics.

Do you go with textbook mnemonics or some other way? I use association since it works better for me but after a while I noticed that made me frequently remember the readings but not the meanings

>>142655814
I go with reading compelling content, the only way to actually learn Japanese.

>>142655088
more like mental retardation
>how do i read books

>>142655919
I'd have to use a dictionary three times per sentence on a mobile, how am I supposed to learn by reading without wanting to kill myself

>>142656168
If you want to kill yourself you're learning Japanese the correct way.

>>142656168
the idea is you just bang your head against the wall enough until you force yourself to pretend youre learning something

>>142656168

Since light novels and visual novels are garbage, I have to do other things to learn Japanese. I play old JRPGs on a psx emulator and have to look up kanji that is sometimes so blurred together you can't even make it out.

If you want it bad enough you'll do it.

>>142656252
>videogame manchild
lol kys

>>142656252
I understand not liking VN's, but I doubt you could possible have any reason to say all LNs are garbage unless you're just a giant edgelord

>>142656227
>>142656252
>>142656221
This actually makes more sense than I wish it did
I'll just hope google kanji dictionary is as good as I heard since I don't practice writing

>>142655273

This actually looks neat now, nice work. Don't feel obligated to complete it but if you did I would like to see it.

>>142656495
He's parroting what a lot of other misinformed morons say. I'm not sure where this whole "all LNs are shit" meme came from.

>>142656495

Just seems to me every light novel is just a written version of anime. And as I got older, I grew out of anime. I learn Japanese now simply because I've wasted so much time learning it I might as well finish. There is no compelling content anymore. Maybe I'll read a history book or something.

Not an edgelord at all, just bored with it. If you know some LNs that aren't garbage by all means shoot some my way.

>>142656627
Anime adaptions.

>>142656546
I just used it today to translate some h-mangos.

At first I used Akebi on Android, but it's stroke limited, and when I switched to google... what a fucking monster that is. Any scribble I do it recognizes, google should make a JP dic for mobiles and I'd gladly pay for it.

>>142656673
thats exactly what lns are they are basically ready made anime shit and thats why you see them getting made into anime so much

everything is shit though especially the things you like

>>142656495
I can kind of understand. VNs usually feel more watered down than LNs, less active than anime or manga, and less interactive than full video games.
On the plus side, VNs are usually
>More involved than LNs
>More fleshed out than anime/manga
>Less tedious than video games

If you don't like LNs though, then try novels. If nothing compels you to learn, it's fucking stupid to continue.

>>142656673
>I grew out of anime
Why are you even here?

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>>142656858
>>Less tedious than video games

When you see words that have the same meaning and reading but different kanji, is it considered just different ways to write the same word?

>>142656673
>I learn Japanese now simply because I've wasted so much time learning it I might as well finish.
So you did Anki for years? Because learning Japanese requires actual native material and since you were young enough to read LNs and VNs there's no excuse.

>>142657019
You mean like 分かる and 判る? Or 硬い and 固い? The have the same basic meaning but slighly different nuances. Using them interchangably will out you as a gaijin real quick.

>>142657019
There are different kanji with same reading for hot (weather, air) and hot (thing)

>>142657234
Well the ones I've noticed so far are 速い/早い and 登る/上る

Madokami will no longer allow uploads of raw manga. How does that make you feel?

>>142657019
Depends, some words have completely different meanings depending on the kanji, other's have but slight changes in nuances, while some are completely interchangeable

It usually says in dictionaries what the case is

>>142657385
Where's the best place to find weekly raw releases?

>>142657385
Indifferent. I haven't used it since it became an IRC secret club.

>>142657385
I spent fucking forever getting onto that shit, and then it was terrible and had like zero selection, fuck it

>>142656673
> I grew out of anime. I learn Japanese now simply because I've wasted so much time learning it I might as well finish.

If you still need to look up kanji in video games you're not even 1/3 of the way to being "finished". Just stop and go learn something else.

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>>142657385
大丈夫、ゲス野郎。

Does anyone know where I can download Japanese opera? Maybe I just suck at googling but I'm not having much luck.

Is Japanese grammar recursive, or non-recursive?

>>142658200
No

>>142658200
japanese grammar is a bidirectional stack language with a context-dependent grammar

>>142658280
context-sensitive*
sorry crossed my jargons
but yeah context-sensitivity means it's recursively enumerable

>>142648019
That can only be a joke.... Try harder next time.

>>142648149
Damn, that's some awesome grammar you've got there.

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>成人向けその他予定
"Intended for adults and such"?

心臓病を患ったから、医者さんは僕に手淫を減らすように言った

Does anyone know this feel?

>>142659751
What does masturbation have to do with heart disease?

>>142659751
No, I'm not a subhuman with shitty genes. In fact, in the future my genetic profile will be used as a default template for new lab-grown humans.

>>142659751
I might if it was an English feel

>>142660021
羨ましいぞ

>>142660021
>implying it's not already being used without your consent

>>142660020
血圧があがるとか

それとも、ナースさんが手コキしてくれるから手淫はダメってことか

>>142660021
Why do you waste your ubermensh potential on chinese cartoons and moonrunes?

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ＤＯ　ＹＯＵＲ　ＲＥＰＳ．　ＮＯＷ．

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Meanwhile, on /b/

お前らなんで日本語話さないのか？これは日本語のスレッドなのに日本語話す人がほとんどいない。勉強してるんじゃない？
分かってるよ、日本語は世界の一番難しい言語とか毎日勉強するのが全然出来ないとかって思ってるけど、もうちょっと頑張ったら上手く話せるようになるよ。応援してくれる人がいないからもうダメだって考えても、一生懸命頑張れ。俺は励ましてあげるよ。来週じゃなくて、明日じゃなくて、今日から、いや、今から勉強しろ！感じを選び間違えても漢字を使ってみろ！打ち間違えてもフリック入力のキーボードを携帯にダウンロードして使ってみろ。
こんなに毎日勉強するとアニメを字幕なしに見たり漫画を読んだりできるようになるんだよ。普通のアメリカ人のニートにとっては日本語を勉強するのは無理そうで、ただ将来の夢みたいだけど、夢だけじゃない。頭いい大人としても日本語を勉強し始めるのは怖そう。
でも俺は20歳だけだけど、もうこんなに日本語話せるから、勉強さえしたらお前も上手く話せるようになる。
諦めんなよ。

>>142660761
I don't have to. I'm way past the reddit tier knowledge of Japanese where doing reps still benefits you.

>>142660849
>Being in this much denial

>>142660761
I don't do anzi

>>142653006
This image always gets a chuckle out of me.

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>>142660849
That's why you're here, right?

>>142660812
Kinda funny how he tries to show of his language skills, and yet he manages to fuck up the Swedish sentence even though it's only three words long.

>>142660822
出来ないだから。

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>>142660822
that's a whole lot of text but in short i don't type in 日本語 because i'm afraid of making too many mistakes and i'll just get laughed at. you don't know my story

>>142661029
You just outed yourself as a redditor. Well done. And all I needed was one well structured post.

世界の国では、たばこが原因の病気について、とても強い言い方で書くようになりました。このため財務省の会議は、医者などの意見も聞いて、日本でも今までより強い言い方にする案を考えました。

"In the world, words regarding tobbaco caused disease have come to be written in a strongly worded way. For this reason the ministry of finance asked doctor's opinions, and in even in Japan they are thought of deciding on a plan to make wordings (on tobbaco) stronger.

How does the former logically conclude the latter portion? If its already admittedly strongly worded, why would they think to make it even stronger.

>>142660822
長すぎ、読まなかった。

>>142661151
>doesn't understand the concept of former and latter
Please learn English before posting in this thread.

>>142660822
>励まして
>来週じゃなくて
>字幕
>将来
only shit i had to use rikai for
are you taking it easy on purpose or is your vocabulary level shit?

>>142658200
Well, to be specific, Japanese is an infinite regular language described by a context sensitive grammar, which means that although parts of it can be pumped it can never be described by an infinite automaton. This is obvious because it isn't context free. In order to understand Japanese grammar you first have to do induction in the structure of the individual grammar points and make sure the base case holds before you can go any further. If the base case holds, i.e if xはyです is always syntactically correct, then you can continue with the induction steps. There are various ways you can add new parts to a Japanese sentence, similar to r = r1r2, r = r* and r = r1 + r2, and you have to prove through induction in the structure of the Japanese grammar that all of these changes result in a regular language as well. This is where the pumping comes in. The lemma says that for all cp in L(r) where c = component and p = particle, concatenating cp with any existing syntactically correct Japanese sentence should give us another syntactically correct sentence if the context sensitive grammar allows it.

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>>142661116
2/10

>>142661151
Because in other countries it's totemo strong.

>>142661287
This site doesn't have a scoring system. I think you opened the wrong tab.

>>142661285
finally a fellow language theorist
where can I learn more about automata theory, as someone who is a very skilled programmer and a shallow descriptivist linguist?

>>142661330
Needs some work.

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>>142661330

>>142661399
i like it

>>142661248
I could probably use more difficult words if I made an attempt to do that, but that is my "comfort level" so to speak. But anyway, I think it's kind of funny that you call my vocabulary level shit if you need a dictionary for words like "future" and "next week", but maybe that's just me..

>>142661323
thanks that would make sense

>>142661440
no I wasn't calling you shit I was just curious
sorry if it seemed that way, it's kind of hard to get around that on 4chan though
thanks for the response, it makes me stronger with being able to understand normal communications in the near future (after a few more months of vocab training)

>>142661349
Very good question. There are lots of Indian people on YouTube who make great videos about regular languages and automatas. I can also recommend the book "Introduction to Languages and the Theory of Computation".

>>142661050
>Ich Sprache Deutsch.
kek. i stopped studying German about 5 months ago and I still know he fucked that up.
>Ich spreche Deutsch.*

simply ebin

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おはようおにいちゃん

せいじつであーれー

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>>142658200
>>142661285
>>142661349

The dog says woof.
The cat says meow.
The cow says moo.
The lemma says that for all cp in L(r) where c = component and p = particle, concatenating cp with any existing syntactically correct Japanese sentence should give us another syntactically correct sentence if the context sensitive grammar allows it.

>>142661487
Don't worry, on the internet everyone is an asshole whether they like it or not.

>>142661643
ロリのマンコはどの匂いがあるの？

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こーこの鉄アレイは...今日がとても重い...ああああああああ！

>>142661805
くさった梅。
参考は俺の実感。

>>142661074
Well, the whole point of this thread is to study and practice Japanese, right? Why not give it a shot? It's like being embarrassed or ashamed of going to the gym. Also, I do know your story. You are a magnet.

>>142661725
tl;dr:
It's recursive because it's context-sensitive (formally, not just pragmatically) and doesn't contain useless rules (restrictions).

The context sensitive structures in Japanese are inductive (DON'T THINK, FEEL), not imperative (cold hard logic). Therefore, an automation cannot describe all possible combinations of context dependencies.

In other words, sufficiently complicated writing will eventually be ambiguous even though it's entirely correct, because it simply takes too long to work out how all the interdependencies work.

Formalizations like these are one of the reasons that Chomsky has spent so long trying to formalize how the brain interprets language. It's literally only once he said "Fuck it" that he started being close -- minimalist program / bare phrase structure.

>>142661178
It's only a few lines for fuck's sake.

>>142662096

Neat, I got more of that one. How would one start down the path of fully understanding the posts you are writing?

>>142661725
Be strong. One day you will find peace.

>>142662213
I'm >>142662096 and not >>142661285 but basically either studying formal logic or learning to program is the first step. You can't actually relate any of the abstract stuff to actual intuitive concepts otherwise.

Context-sensitive recursion can't be translated to an infinite number of bounded state objects, nor a finite number of boundless state objects, because each level of recursion (of which there can be infinite) can reference any president external state (of which there can also be infinite).

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>>142648812
Anon is still better than you, who has all the courage of sitting on the sitelines acting like a fucking manchildren actually trying to tough talk someone who was obviously joking around. Good on you anon, 3 Internet Points for Sure Showing Him.

God these threads attract the most fucking insufferable spergs.

>>142653900
>And don't you dare include anki time
Yes, because studying in Anki isn't studying, right?

>>142662213
i just aced a course last semester all about languages, context free grammars, automata and turing machines.

you know.. i bet you could find a similar set of lectures on MIT open courseware..

>>142662281
>>142662213

Cool little introduction: If a finite language can be described by a regular expression, then it's a regular language. And if a finite language is regular, it is accepted by a finite automaton. And vice versa.

So if you have a regular expression abc+d*ee, then that means that the regular language L(r) is a language that can be described by this regular expression. L(r) is an infinite set of all the strings that match the regular expression as follows: An "a", followed by a "b", followed by at least 1 "c", followed y any number of "d"s, followed by two "e"s.

You can build a finite automaton that accepts all strings in the language L(r) Because it's a regular language. Because it's described by a regular expression.

Japanese cannot be described by a regular expression and because of that can't be accepted by a finite automaton. That also means that when I said Japanese is an infinite regular language, I made a mistake. It can't be regular in the same sense as L(r) described above. It's a natural language and they are impossible to contain by regular expressions. I guess Chomsky tried with context free grammars, but it didn't really work well.

>>142662213
Google for a book "Intro to the Theory of Computation" by Michael Sipser. The first ~4 chapters will give you a decent introduction to "languages".

Also here's the author's lectures at MIT, maybe it's easier if you follow along with a lecture.
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-404j-theory-of-computation-fall-2006/

>>142660822
俺はいつもここで日本語打ってるけど

>>142662847
>L(r) is an infinite set of all the strings that match the regular expression as follows: An "a", followed by a "b", followed by at least 1 "c", followed y any number of "d"s, followed by two "e"s.
The predicate set, in the system that I was taught.

In the system I was taught, a grammar describes how to construct valid predicates from a set of symbols, and predicates can also be used as symbols. If a given rule can use its own output as one of its own inputs, or there's a cycle of rules that can be feed into eachother, then it's recursive. If a rule can implicitly reference state from other rules, then it's context-sensitive (in other words, "context" is like a meta-language that reprograms existing rules, because otherwise, context dependencies could create paradoxes)

My mentor loved syntax theory, and showed how adding mixing rules from existing rudimentary programming languages (like reverse polish notation on one end, and jumpless/loopless von neumann machines on the other) causes them to converge on being recursive and context-sensitive.

>>142662617
Oral exam in Regularity and Automata (which is about everything you just listed) coming up in a few weeks. Only been briefly introduced to turing machines through an implementation in Scheme, so the concept still seems a bit abstract. But then again, everything is.

>>142662977
それは本当ならいいな！日本語を話すためにここに来たけど、がっかりされた…

>>142663046
>>My mentor loved syntax theory, and showed how adding mixing rules from existing rudimentary programming languages (like reverse polish notation on one end, and jumpless/loopless von neumann machines on the other) causes them to converge on being recursive and context-sensitive.
Because of what you do to resolve the conflict in paradigms between the two languages*
Forgot that part, and it's rather vital, because otherwise what I said sounds like pure crackpottery.

>>142663058
Turing machines are pretty easy

You have a state (the line of code you are currently trying to run) and a position (a single integer pointer) and you repeatedly run the line of code, which advances you do a new line of code (a new state) which may depend on the integer your pointer is looking at (for for and while loops, for instance) and the line of code can do things like move the pointer or adjust the integer's value.

With the basic definition you might have restrictions like "you can only move the pointer one step at a time" but it turns out none of these matter except for the number of steps it takes, just like you can write a complicated C++ compiler in assembly.

>>142663234
My only beef with turing's theory is the gymnastics people use to define the C preprocessor as not being turing complete.

>>142663118
なら自分から積極的に面白い日本語を書けばいい
つまらない下ネタだけで返事もらえると思うな、ね？

noob question here. when would you use 終わりover　終わる?

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riddle:いっつもいえのなかにいるおにいちゃん、なにじんだ？

>>142663386
終わり is nounal
終わる is verbal

>>142663502
oh i see.

thank you

>>142662281
>>142662617
>>142662847
>>142662955

Thanks for the replies. Stuff like this makes my head spin though, I probably am not cut out for it.

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>>142661807
ほほほ～それは可愛いね

God dammit I thought あっという間に　was あっというあいだに　and I already had the absolute best joke about it but now I can never use it.

>>142663629
Learn some math and then it will seem like a joke

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>>142654364
>tfw it's reps time

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>>142663641
あ↑っちゅうまに

ってはつおんするよ、がんばっておにいちゃん

>>142662078
私が日本語文章を作るない

求め優しお願い

>>142663641
>あっというあいだに
For the last 3 years or so this is how I always read it.
Gonna be fun to un-learn this.

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>>142642065
煙おそらく

>>142642065
>playing the modern day equivalent of crack
You can't learn japanese

>>142663433
家人

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>時計仕掛けのレイライン
Been reading this as first LN, it's pretty interesting so far and hasn't been that difficult.

Maybe an alternative to the Hanahira and Flyable heart people constantly recommend.

>>142664135
I always recommend it as a bridge between the simplest moege and plotge. The game kind of "tests" you on reading comprehension (the choices are basically "Are you paying attention?") so it's both great learning material and something that's probably best for someone who's already played at least a couple VNs.

>>142664135
There's a fuckton of alternatives to Hanahira and Flyable Heart but people still choose to read literal shit because they're afraid to "ruin" good stuff with their low skill.

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>>142659751
オナニー出来る事って生きているその物さ。
出来ないなら死ぬしかない。

なかきよの とおのねふりの みなめさめ なみのりふねの おとのよきかな

What did he mean by this?

>>142664481
At least find a new passage dude

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中世のお城のような、学院の敷地内を通り、ここまでやってきた

What does を通り mean in this context? My only guess is "in accordance with, like a", as in it was used as a academy grounds.

"It was like a middle ages castle, a academy grounds を通り, ive come this far.

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>>142664481
長き世/夜の　遠の眠りの　皆目覚め

波乗り船の　音の良き哉

たぶん、ねふりじゃなくて、ねむりだとおもうよ。ぜんぜんじしんはないよ

>>142664648
to pass through

>>142660761
But I already did my Mandarin vocab reps earlier today.

I don't need to grind Japanese vocab anymore ;*)

>>142664648
What >>142664805 said, if it were in accordance WITH/TO, it would be の通り

>>142664648
What the fuck man.
He came there passing academy grounds.

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>>142641280
Switched from obenkyo to anki, where is the answer input?

>>142664851
>>142664845
>>142664805
im retarded, its verb stem used as connector and the ending portion indicates the tense.

ugh

>>142664931
You want to type it out?
Probably need to change your card layout then, normally most anki decks don't ask for that.

>>142665003
How do I do that

>>142664931
Answer with your mouth. It's faster an gives you pronunciation practice.

>>142662847
This doesn't seem logical. The number of specific expressions and grammar rules used to create Japanese sentences is finite, hence you could theoretically create a finite expression to represent the language.

>>142664931
Are you really incapable of knowing whether you got the question right after seeing the answer?

>>142665158
You can create a finite machine to interpret the language, if it has infinite state. But you can't create a finite set of finite states to represent the language, because you can create an infinite number of expressions.

>>142665158
It isn't finite though, unless you add in a rule like "Any sentence longer than 200 words is not grammatical" in which case it might end up being finite, but it would not be enlightening.

>>142665365
There is no need for that.
That's like saying that decimal numbers cannot be described by a regular grammar because you can write infinite amount of digits.

>>142665539
How do they differ though?
Imagine instead of 10 digits, you had a digit for each Japanese grammar rule applied to each Japanese word in turn, of which there are some finite number. Then any Japanese text would just consist of these "digits" repeated.

>>142665659
That's the point. You have kana and kanji instead of digits.

>>142665738
Then by this argument Japanese can be described by a finite regular grammar.

Anyone else get tripped up by new words, focusing too heavily on it and ending up missing the overall grammar of the sentence?

Is there a Japanese equivalent of Joyce?

Can the language be played around with in such a way, or is it limited by its reliance on kanji?

>>142666030
anyone who makes up their own kanji

>>142666030
The Japanese equivalent is probably using a kanji with the same reading but different meaning.
The language is fairly rich in wordplay.

>>142666030
>>142666090
>>142666098
Am I missing something here? It's just a name right?

Why wouldn't it just be ジョイス? Since when are foreign names spelled with kanji?

>>142666144
Joyce is the name of an author who did wordplay in his works, like changing a word to a similar word with very similar sound but different meaning.

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うるせーよ、俺はうちに行きたい

>>142666030
>is it limited by its reliance on kanji?
How so? If anything it adds more ways to fuck with the reader.

>>142666239
oh heh
now it makes sense

>>142666249
うるさい、アホ

>>142666013
not at all. add it to the deck and move along

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Someone please help me figure out the first kanji.

>>142666547
独

>>142666611
Damn I should know that. I guess I fucked up the stroke order pretty bad because it didn't show up at all. Thanks.

>>142666776
It looks like a hand radical instead of dog. It's pretty badly written desu.

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にぼしかってきたよ

おにいちゃんいっしょにかじろ

>>142665659
>>142665780
I am sure that in reality every language can actually be defined by a finite grammar, just because long sentences do become ungrammatical and you can just list off every possible sentence. The point is that there isn't a reasonable way to do that. Yes, there may be technically finitely many grammar rules in the above sense, but if you actually start trying to list them it for machine translation or something, it will not work out. Grammar is just too complicated for that.

>>142666809
Just when you think you're getting good you realize people have handwriting as bad as yours. Damn it.

>>142666850
もっと面白いこといえないかな
ぶっちゃけお前そんなんばっかで飽きたわ

Help! Need an english translation (corrections too) of this:

> そして彼女にとっては屈服と同意の意思表示…
Then, as to her, this meant her consent and submission...

> それは彼女に否応無く意識させる
That was something she felt it was forced.
(this is so wrooong, but I can't think of anything that makes sense)

(consciousness forced to) (no choice)?

>>142666858
>just because long sentences do become ungrammatical
Anon look up the definition of finite grammar. It has nothing to do with the length of the expression.
As I said before, one of the prime examples that's usually used for finite grammar is either decimal numbers (which can be infinitely long) or strings made from letters of the alphabet (which can also be infinitely long).

>>142666858
Oh, ok. I'll agree with you on that. Obviously for all practical purposes the language is infinite, which is why people who try and fit everything into grammar rules rather than just "feeling" the meaning out are idiots.

>>142666921
For her, this was synonymous to (held the same meaning as) a declaration of submission.

I made her realize this, whether she liked it or not. (literally, she was made aware of this)

>>142666952
> It has nothing to do with the length of the expression.
It does when talking about what sounds correct in a language. You're just making the point that what is actually grammatical in Japanese is not matched by your CS101 description.

>As I said before, one of the prime examples that's usually used for finite grammar is either decimal numbers (which can be infinitely long) or strings made from letters of the alphabet (which can also be infinitely long).

Yeah, because you are taking a finite alphabet with literally zero grammar rules. Real languages have many grammar rules.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxR6AvThogQ
Holy fuck, this guy.

>>142667076
Thanks!
This 否応無く was really confusing to me, but I think it makes sense now.

>>142667108
>Real languages have many grammar rules.
It doesn't matter.
As long as there is a finite amount of Japanese words and a finite amount of grammatical rules, the grammar is finite, regardless of the length of the text you're looking at.

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>There are more grammar rules in Japanese than stars in the Universe

>>142667217
Yes, and Japanese will be a finite grammar because you could technically list every grammatical sentence, but if you try to do it in a reasonably concise manner by listing DOJG grammar rules you will fail.

>>142667291
I honestly have no fucking idea what these guys are talking about.

>>142667487
This isn't true. You can have arbitrarily long grammatical sentences in Japanese, for example just by lists of names.
鈴木は…
鈴木と田中は…
鈴木と田中と藤田は…
etc.
So you can't "technically list every grammatical sentence".

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Can you vape amphetamines? Also can you get a bit lazer that I can also vape with?

>>142645596
>Delete them instead
A good 30% of those word you likely have no fucking clue what they mean. Retards who assume カタカナ＝English, need to be shot like mangy dogs. Shut the fuck up, beginner.

>>142645617
>bloat reviews
If you know it like you think you know it then over the course of an entire year you will likely spend less than a minute on the card in total. That's maybe a few hours over an entire year with all of the katakana words.
You'd be better off spending an entire week off 4chan if you really give a shit about excess time being spent on something.
Do you people even use your brains?

>>142667686
Neah those stop being grammatical when they exceed the number of words you can say in your lifetime.