ITT fluff and/or retcons you will never acknowledge or accept

>>44903875
I want my squats man :(

>>44903875
Everything in the HH series

>>44904218
This isn't a thread for sadness. It's a thread for stark defiance!
My squats still exist! Damn what GW says!

>>44903875
Olanius Pius.

>>44903875
Also necrons just becoming TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAACE!!

>>44903875

Salamanders being mutants instead of just black dudes

And pretty much everything that isn't in the RPG or Forgeworld books, actually.

>>44904218
>>44904256
I will defy GW til my dying breath on this, squats will always live on in the hearts of those who defend them.

>>44903875

Not 40k, but every single damn thing post Toturi dynasty in L5R.

>>44904255
>>44903875
Pretty much covers it

>>44903875

Yeah I hate this shit

The thought of 1000 people, hell usually 1/10 of that being able to pacify an entire planet is beyond ludacris.

I would have accepted if it was just 6-7k but for a far reaching chapter with crusades everywhere, 10+1 or 2 companies seems unlikely.

>>44904321

>And pretty much everything that isn't in the RPG or Forgeworld books, actually.

This. If you get any fluff from Codexs and the main rulebooks you're a faggot and should feel bad.

>>44904321
>RPG rulebooks maintain the division of sorcery and psychic powers
That was when I knew FFG was based.

>>44903875
Perpetuals.
Also the Emperor being anything else than a bio-engineer from the Dark Age of Technology who tested his superhuman formula on himself.

Ep. 1 is not canon. Hell, it does not exist as far as I am concerned. Midichlorians are bullshit, the ability to use the Force is not a parasitic infection.

>>44904218
>>44904256
>>44904328

Squats have existed since 6th ed core came out

>>44903875
anything during or after the era of M. Ward.

>>44904321
Salamanders are black dudes- the people of Noctrune have dark skin from the environment like Africa. It's just the gene-seed of the Salamanders mutates them, gives them cracked, thick skin, and turns it jet black.

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>>44903875
>tfw that chaplain looks so edgy that i thought he was a traitor on first sight

>>44903875
>>44904255
These.

I've been away for a while so I have question and didn't want to start my own thread over it and this seemed like the most appropriate thread for it.
Is Carnac still a thing on /tg/ or did he ever move on to greener, more autistic pastures?

Age of Sigmar.

The only good thing to come out of it was the book Slayer.

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>>44906243
>I deny the existence of an entire setting
hardcore

>>44904296
This. A million times this.

>>44904531
They exist, yeah, but their empire of eternal 80's hair metal design became Tyranid food, and because GW insists that they were a major grimdark design clash (unlike Tau), they're just another Abhuman remnant that gets a pass with the IG, if only so people have something to do with their ex-Squat armies

Squats are the XFL of 40k races

>>44906727
>because GW insists that they were a major grimdark design clash (unlike Tau),
Squats should have appealed to the manga crowd if they wanted to live.

>>44906113
The indicator of a good chaplain is how close you need to get to them before you realize they are a loyalist. That way they can get nice and close to any Chaos Space Marines before yelling "REPENT MOTHER FUCKER" and bashing them in the face

>>44904358
I feel like the black Templars have to be around 10000 astartes minimum for this whole eternal crusade thing to work

>>44906771
That "Tau is anime" shit needs to die out.

Yeah, sure, the Tau are all collectively running around in O-Yoroi inspired armor, wearing insignias that look a shit-ton like Japanese clan insignias, and fielding mechs.

However, in comparison to the fucking Eldar that is NOTHING.
The Eldar run around with katanas (Supernaturally sharp obviously) and shuriken guns doing crazy martial arts shit, have straight up manga-esque hair fuckery going on, they wield mechas that, unlike the Tau, also engage in martial arts dickery.

>>44904529
By your definition of parasite, mitochondria would count.

>>44906771
>play tau
>get called a weeb
>never watched anime in my life

I just like how shooty they are.

>>44903875
Anything to do with the Grey Knights or the Ultramarines.

>>44907060
Ill do you one better.

Tao arent anime shit they just flat out do not fit in 40k. Period.

>>44903875
starcraft 2 and especially stukov.
He died a hero goddamnit.

>>44903875
The entire HH series

>>44907346
I'd argue that no faction except for the imperial ones actually fit into 40k, which is what makes it 40k.

>>44907580
>That final declaration of Raynor in SC1 that he will do anything to kill Kerrigan.
>Kerrigan straight up calls herself the Queen Bitch of the universe.
>Kerrigan is basically confirmed irredeemably evil.
>Kerrigan even spends most of the second game and two expansions just straight up murdering people who have done fuck and all to deserve it.
>"BUT YOU NEED TO REDEEM HER!, SHE'S THE HERO!"
>She turns into a goddamn fire angel.

No.
Fuck you Blizzard.

>>44903875
>BL novels
>3rd party
>Be'lakor
>End Times and Age of Sigmar

>>44907726
>Fuck you Blizzard.

Eh, don't remind me. They just had to force a fucking love story there out of nothing.

>inb4 some faggot tries to explain how Raynor thinking dirty things about her when they first met in SC1 totally means they were lovers

>>44904255
>You will never acknowledge properly fleshed out interesting primarchs

sad timez

>>44907060
>Eldar use katanas

Take a took at this pleb who thinks any sabre is automatically a fucking katana.

>>44907799
>Be'lakor
Deserves more mention in this thread.

>>44907895
>forgetting what they did to warcraft.
>all that promise lost.
I saw the ending cinematic of tft again, the chorus from WoTLK plays as it ends.

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>>44907060
>eldar are totes space japs you gais

"Tau is anime" will die the moment you can unfuck from existence the devs saying tau were given a manga aesthetic.

>>44907898
>interesting
>HH
pick one and only one

Loken surviving Isstvan.
Literally every plot point of The Lion short story.
Ollanius Pius being immortal, or indeed anything more than a mortal man.

>>44904218
>>>/fit/

Exalted can have my magitech when they PRY IT FROM MY TWILIGHT'S COLD DEAD 50 FOOT TALL ORICHALCUM MECHA HANDS.

>>44904296
from the start they were robot skeletons with an egyptian motif...i don't think this is a new thing dude

>>44904529
The Force is not the bowl, but the soup contained within the bowl.

>>44903875
Emps "making a deal" with the Dark Gods. It's not just the dumbest thing that could ever happen, it completely invalidates all the fluff ever about him. Fuck that, never happened.
By extension, the incredibly shabby treatment given to him in HH.
>>44904296
Newcrons and their C'tan pokemon are the second greatest insult.

>>44904296
If anything, the Oldcrons can still exist. Maybe some of the C'Tan still have control.

>>44907346
>alien races don't share a consistent design aesthetic

i would think this is a sign of success on the designers part

>>44908019
I can only assume that triskelion is a Dark Eldar thing.

>>44903875
>Sorcery/Psychic Power are the same thing (based FFG doesn't acknowledge this either)
>The Imperium Secundus
>The Emperor/Chaos deal
>Bela'kor
>The Black Templar size redunction
>The Mentors being loners

>>44908285
They used to be Terminators in space, harvesting life down to individual microbes for their very real and very dangerous gods to feast upon.
Now they're senile Tomb Kings who miss their fleshy, dangly bits.

>>44903875
Grey knights being not an entire chapter of almost librarians taken from other astartes recruits and trained in their ways instead but all of them are sorcerers!!!!

Abject stupidity that change.

>>44903875
Black Templar size.
Perpetuals
Ollanius Pius
Alpharius/Omegon
Draigo carving his name into Mortarion's heart
Khaine's gate
Newcrons
Dolmen gates
Emperor shaman stuff
Tau forced sterilization
Centurions
Chaos undivided being removed
Imperial Knights
Most of the avatar deaths

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>>44906771
>Squats
>could have had Exo-Armor that looked like SD Zakus, Doms, Goufs, & other mobile suits
>Heat Chainaxes and Zaku Machinegun-Bolters
>Big Mobile Armors for artillery, vehicles, etc
>Psyker Squats are literally Newtypes

>>44908019
>dat unpainted warlock
daww, it looks so adorable.

>>44904293
This retcon is the saddest. A true human hero, removed because heroism isn't grimdark enough.

>>44908608
I want to add the removal of Chaos Undivided to my list here
>>44908412

>>44908785
BL ruined everything. The Emperor, all the primarchs and the whole of the Great Crusade it nothing but a massive chaotic evil fuck-up, because if M41 is grimderp then M31 has to be grimderp too. Everyone has to do the most fucked up things and they throw in super good aliens and people to get killed just so that the Imperium would look extra evil.

If only someone would have realized the impact of 40k's grimderp if 30k has actually been enlightened and well meaning period of time full of progress and reason, brought down by a series of unfortunate events and Chaos fuckery, and finished off by 10,000 years of human nature taking its course.

>>44903875
You're kidding me, when did that happen.

>>44903875
Perpetuals

>>44906727
XFL was shit
>>44903875
Pharos is what brought the Nids to the Galaxy

>>44903875
Basically anything involving the spider clan.

I don't give a shit if th ewriters think they're cool.
In a game where breaches of etiquette are as damaging as sword wounds, you can't have skeletor esque villains going around screaming about fucking evil they are and still be a part of society.
You just fucking can't.

I mean the scorpion is already pushing it.

>>44904529
Fuck's sake, the midichlorians don't make the force ability, they are just attracted to force active people. The more midichlorians someone has in them, the more powerful in the force they can potentially be.

>>44904218

For all the people bitching about Squats I expected to see 3rd party space dwarf armies all over the place. It's kind of funny how I don't, though. It's almost as if people on the internet passionately rage about things they don't actually give two shits about if it requires even a little bit of IRL effort.

I totally get why GW deleted their forums.

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>>44903875
They used to be codex compliant. They just can't make up their minds.

Wow like every single item in this thread is a retcon I'm pissed about. Even the squats, who were before my time.

Shoutout to the oldcrons-- there are aspects of the newcrons I like but overall it was a major turn for the worse.

The retconned BT chapter size is another one. I don't even fucking like the templars. It's one more change that makes little or no sense as either setting fiction or as a game mechanic.

>>44908359
Oldcrons can and do still exist in universe, and still work very well as a concept even with Newcron fluff. Newcron fluff allows for people to actually flesh out their armies and characters rather than being railroaded into having all the same personality builds. It also fleshes out how their society worked, which is kind of necessary when you're a major player on the galactic playing field. You can do "super-secret-totally-unknown" races well (like the Rak'Gol) but if they're a major part of your setting, you need to flesh them out and make them more than a one-dimensional boogeyman (like the Rak'Gol).

>>44903875
Not a retcon but the whole citizens aren't allowed to know about chaos thing I get the reasoning behind it but I feel that after 100000 years it would be impossible to keep it a secret .

I suppose you might be able to hold the knowledge off for a while by isolating those planets where its widespread but that will only work for a few thousand years

Die vecna die never happened

>>44906113
>>44906834

Depending on the depiction of the marine, many times loyalists are so fucking scary looking and covered in skulls that you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference.

I would imagine that space marines IRL would be pretty intimidating, some chapters being so spooky to the average human that there's no real way to know if a given marine will rip your spine out through your ass and laugh or rip your spine out through your ass and laugh but only if you're an alien or heretic.

Although I guess it might be easier to tell legit chaos marines by them having auras of dark OH GOD WHAT THE FUCK and pestilent miasmas surrounding their equipment and daemons.

>>44910275
And I want the Rak'gol fleshed out goddamnit!

Give me more biomechanical horror than you can shake a stick at.

I want walking tanks leaking blood and oil and radiation with a rak'gol quadriplegic strapped into the center. I want skimmer tanks that vomit radiation from both ends. I want Rak'gol shamans that can make knights tear out their own pilots and crush them to death.

>>44904529
Before midochlorians, it was just literal fucking space magic.

They're fine.

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>>44907346
>>44907902
>>44908019

You got baited kids.

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>>44912296
Ah the ol 'getting btfo, better say It was b8' b8.

>>44907280
preach. fuck them and their psychic vehicles.

>>44907898
Pretty much all the primarchs are fleshed out and really interesting, corvus being the only one I can think of that is pretty generic.

>>44908029
I love most of the HH. Its more interesting than "Here is a dude with a whip, we'll call him fuckface the eternal." Learning about why dude is how he is is great.

>>44904529
I'm with you on this brother. Fuck the fact that you're born with a sack with a maximum force limit. train hard = be hard shouldve been where the force stayed.

>>44908357
They butchered the C'tan's so fit their tabletop. Nightbringer used to be scary, now hes just a skinny dude in a dress.

>>44912704
The C'tan shards still destroy worlds on their own.

Their table top representation still isn't accurate to the lore by a wide margin.

>>44908608
Everything about draigo is dumb.
alphy and omegon are dumb, just like ninja astartes are dumb, you cant be a spy when you're 8ft tall.

>>44912650
>Learning about why dude is how he is is great, especially when it fucks over other bits of lore which we'll end up fucking over again for the next character

FTFY cunt.

>>44908969

You need to read the books that happen prior to chaos. The first few books talk about the glory of the imperium, but nothing like that can last forever, equal and opposite.

>>44912805
>implying 40k has an equal and opposite
>implying grimdark has an equal and opposite in general

>>44908608
Imperial Knights have been around since Rogue Trader haven't they? Same with most of the Mechanicum units we're now seeing.

>>44912481
what would a fish bait a man with?

>>44908029
You're a faggot. You should an hero.

>>44912841
Pussy.

>>44912855
Not before you.

>>44912796
Who? I dont know everything about the timeline, but I cant think of one instance of them adding a backstory to someone that fucks with the lore of another character?

>>44907898
They started with good pirmarchs. But since they had stuff like "Angron is really the hulk" the writers had to do "We've got to flesh him out, distance him from that character. I have this idea for brain damaging nails." We've seen some of those flesh-outs handled good, like Magnus, and handled poorly, like Angron.
It can really take away from the balsy no-holds-barred state of a character who's supposed to be going full-throttle-ahead like a glorious madman that you can't but like to root for.
I like the angle of Emp making a deal with the RuinousP. He's a human, shouldn't a human be able to put one over on the matter of a crooked contract? Cheat the devil? Trick a trickster-god? Clearly it all went wrong, but the basis of the RuinP trying to cheat a cheater should still be something likeable.

>>44912831
It does. we just joined the story after the good. The best falls happen from the greatest heights.

>>44912903
The nails just added to me liking him. "I'm rage for rage's sake" is boring. "I cant help but rage constantly and im forever in constant pain so its a vicious cycle" is way more interesting. Plus Angron is King Beast

>>44912968
It's more interesting, but it also doesn't make any fucking sense if you zoom out.

Why the fuck would the Emperor let a degenerative mental cripple exist, let alone make his entire legion of super soldiers just like him?

>>44912917
So if there was ever an end times for 40k, the imperium of man would win to bring back equality then it would become another golden age and then fall once more so on forever? How is that an equal and opposite for the other races?

>>44913000
nice trips. I think the explained it that the nails were tech he didnt understand? Or desu they are what helped shaped his son into an adult. OR its bc emps is a fuckboy who had the parenting capability of Casey Anthony.

>>44913032
There isnt going to be an end times... And with a story that has multiple "main characters" the pendulum isnt always back in forth. Look at ASOIAF, some people never get back up and thats good for another character. An entire imperium full of Mary Sues would be the dullest.

>>44903875
>>44904293
>>44904321
>>44905829
>>44908150
>Ollanius Pius being immortal, or indeed anything more than a mortal man.

All of these. Probably more, but these are the only things that come to mind; Ollanius Pius especially.

>>44913063
Letting an entire army of rage monsters walk around is not bad parenting, it's pretty much bad everything.

Either Big E is a complete incompetent or he actually was working for Chaos all along.

>>44912879
Same time? <333

>>44913112
I saw a theory that he was the incarnation of the 5th chaos god(name escapes me) and was just working all along to plunge galaxy into war eternal. Plus even some loyalists were rage monsters, scars and wolves for sure.

>>44913139
you know it bae xx

>>44913063
That's why it's part of the overarching problem of the HH.

None of those answers make any sense, especially him not understanding the tech. He engineered the fucking Primarchs, even with the help of the Ruinous Powers (which is dumb in it's own way but slightly more acceptable).

The whole thing turned Emps into a fucking retarded, and Angron is a sympathetic but completely nonsensical character.

>>44912841
>>44907055

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>>44903875
>chainswords are used for other things than cutting through bulkheads during boarding operations

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>>44912903
>>44912968
>>44913000
>>44913063
>>44913112
>>44913193

The World Eaters were always described as doing the implant thing, since before the Primarchs existed - pic related. Angron's implants specifically, and his whole gladiator-slave backstory, came from Index Astartes:

>However it came to pass, it is known that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the bleeding figure of the Primarch, surrounded by scores of alien corpses, high in the northern mountains. History does not record to what race these aliens belonged, but many Imperial scholars believe them to have been Eldar, perhaps attacking the Primarch with some foreknowledge of what the future held for him. Angron had been grievously wounded, but was alive and, seeing that all his wounds were to the fore, the slaver realised that Angron must be a formidable warrior. Taken as a slave, Angron was nursed back to health and bio-neural implants were surgically grafted to his cerebral cortex.

>Relics from the Dark Age of Technology, these would boost a warrior's aggression and strength in battle and turn him into a frenzied killer. Angron was taken to the planet's capital where his obvious potential as a gladiator was soon realised and he was bought by the largest and most patronised arena in the city. The cells below the arena were home to several thousand cyber gladiators, and Angron now took his place amongst them.

>>44910835
Citizens generally know that there are bad things out there that will try to ruin them and corrupt their souls. A great many are aware of the general existence of Chaos as a concept, and the fact that faith in the Emperor can protect them from this unknown nightmare fuel.

They just aren't permitted to know what those things specifically are. They aren't allowed to know who or what the Chaos Gods are, how Daemons work (Daemons are generally known as a concept, as there are multiple famous artistic works that explicitly depict and Imperial hero fighting back and vanquishing a Daemon, including the famous portrait of Sanguinius besting and vanquishing a Bloodthirster), and what their symbols/cult tendencies are. They're just taught, "There is Chaos, it's big and horrible, don't inquire further or you'll get sent to Hell (And we might send you there ourselves)."

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>>44913333

>Knowing how effective at boosting a warrior's prowess the psycho surgery could be, Angron ordered the Techmarines of the World Eaters to duplicate the process, using the implants in his head as a template. However, the art of this technology's construction had long since been forgotten and the early attempts at reproducing it were unreliable, often triggering uncontrollable and unstoppable psychotic episodes in the recipients. Eventually, the Techmarines were able to construct working implants that heightened aggression and strength, grafting them to whole companies of World Eaters Space Marines. Initially, the enhanced companies were highly successful, quickly gaining a fearsome reputation as terror troops. No mercy was offered by the World Eaters, only bloody death at the end of a chain-axe. The Liber Malum speaks of whole systems surrendering wholesale rather than face the wrath of the World Eaters. But it was only a matter of time before the Legion's use of psycho surgery on its recruits became widely known. Following the infamous Ghenna Scouring, where an entire planet's population were butchered in a single night of bloodshed, the World Eaters were censured by the Emperor and commanded to cease the use of implants.

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>>44913354

>Angron paid little heed to this and ordered the work of the Techmarines to continue, until almost every Space Marine in the Legion had undergone the ritual surgery. Blood rites became an increasingly important part of the Legion's heritage as their slaughter continued across the galaxy, and it became common practice for Space Marines to compete in the number of enemy skulls they could take in battle. Many of Angron's brother Primarchs voiced their concerns to the Emperor, and now the Master of Mankind made a fatal error. He dispatched Horus, the most trusted of all the Primarchs, to confront Angron and bring him back into line. Horus was a master psychologist and, unbeknownst to the Emperor, had already been corrupted by the Chaos powers. In Angron he saw a warrior consumed by bitterness and resentment and it was a simple matter for Horus to feed that bitterness, emphasising the Emperor's betrayal, painting him as a weakling in need of replacing. He told Angron exactly what he wanted to hear and, when Horus eventually betrayed the Emperor, beginning the first galactic civil war, Angron's World Eaters marched beside the Sons of Horus.

>>44913193
I dont get how Angron is nonsensical. They needed a chaos chapter dedicated to Khorne, so they created a character that would be the embodiment of Khorne to turn his marines into it. I think the overarching story of the Imperium is that Emp is a huge fuckup, he abandoned his real goals to achieve godhood and everything fell to shit when he did that(thats when he named Horus Warmaster)

There are things outside of the HH that are in codex's that are way more retarded.

Necrons having a galaxy map that they can make and star go nova? Hit Sol with it and buhbye Terra.

>>44907726
Speaking of being pissed at Blizzard, everything about Sylvanas' story since a ways into Wrath if I'm being generous, otherwise everything since BC.

Especially Cata and War Crimes.

>>44913093
RR Martins series is dog shit and about as grim dark and "equal and opposite" as a dog licking a lollipop.

Some people said WHFB would never get squatted (removed then reinstated in a much less pleasing form) and it did.

As it stands, nearly every character is a mary sue and that's because the plot is stuck in constant stasis.

Shit can't be equal and opposite if it only rolls one way. There was what, the age of Terra which was starting to look up, followed by the DAoT which saw our golden age then fall. Then we've got the reunification and great crusade eras which is great, then the heresy and eventual age of apostasy, followed by the age of the imperium. By my counting, that's 2-3 for positive time frames and the rest not, showing the "equal and opposite" views of the 40k universe as boulder dash concerning humans. It does fit in with 40ks grimdark setting though.

>>44913434
I'm more pissed at the huge circlejerk over Thrall and the wholesale slaughter of EVERY single villain thats ever existed. Literally the only two left we havent killed are Aszhara and Sargeras. Beaten into retreat is a better story mechanic than murdering 3 main lore characters per patch. Plus the potention for warlords of draenor just squandered, its a shame to be honest.

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>primarchs before HH books
>demigod champions of humans who are fucked over by circumstances and are tragic with none really wanting to turn to chaos

>primarchs after HH books
>edgy teen crybabies with daddy issues who turn to chaos because nothin personal kid

>>44913487
How is a getting Terra out of the dark ages, conquering most of the galaxy and recovering his lost children just a "positive time frame?"


And yeah plot for wh40k will forever be stuck because changing it means people cant use the models they bought if those characters die. The fluff behind the hobby is secondary.

As for ASOIAF being dogshit, you're entitled to your opinion, but the vast majority of people disagree.

>>44913500
WoD is general is just something to not forgive Blizz for. Also green jesus did get most annoying for me in Cata but otherwise I didn't really care for him other than his wife just appearing out of fucking nowhere.

Also Vol'jin making warchief, proceeding to do fuckall for an expac, then going MIA, is just bullshit. Also King Chin is apparently getting offed and that's annoying because he finally became likable.

>>44913434
>sylvanas
her fans are even more retarded
>lordaeron belongs to its people
>hillsbrad and southshore are rightful lordaeron clay
can't wait for the day when the imperium reclaims that fucking planet by virus bombing it from orbit

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>>44913589
>other than his wife just appearing out of fucking nowhere.

pretty sure chris wanted jaina to get GREENED but absolutely everyone in blizz must have joined forces to gainsay him and they had to pull something out of their ass

>>44913422
>I dont get how Angron is nonsensical. They needed a chaos chapter dedicated to Khorne, so they created a character that would be the embodiment of Khorne to turn his marines into it.
Because it removes that plot point and the fact that he was human.
All the primarchs were human, albeit super/superior versions.
Instead of an unstable person whose life shaped and defined him and who ultimately chose to walk down the path of worshiping khorne because that's who he felt was an embodiment of, we've got some psychopath that was psychotic not for his own shortcomings and faults, but because he's got plot-device nails in the head fucking him up. They don't simply aid in him becoming a fuck up, they come across as virtually being the entire reason. Angrons entire lore is shit upon.

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>>44913589
you forgot
>theramore blown up
>alliance never gets payback
Emerald dream had a righteous RP raid into orgrimmar when MoP launched tho.
>tfw marching with an army while everyone yells "Remember theramore"
and after that WoW died for me.

>>44913534

The ONLY primarch thats a whiny teenager is Horus (maybe Magnus). Everyone else either had severe mental issues (probably due to being abandoned on planets like Nostromo), were tempted by chaos and found wanting, or just liked their brothers more than their dad.

Horus - I'll give ya whiny bitch, but he did die and was brought back to life by chaos, so that amy have helped
Lorgar - Religious zelot that found out the REAL gods happen to be shitty, doesnt change the fact that they're the REAL gods he was looking for
Angron&Curze - Grew up in really shitty enviroments and it changed them
Mortarion & Fulgrim - Liked their brothers more than their father
Perturabo - ok he was a whiny little bitch, but who wouldnt be butthurt about stuck doing a shit job for 10k years?

>>44913626
nah metzen got married around that time, so they had an OC donut steel for his self insert.

>>44913589
I really hated the Garrosh story line too. He was all set up to be a proper bad ass when questing through cata, then he randomly turned bitch. As much of a Sylvanas fanboy as I am, shouldve been a raid against undercity with garrosh at the lead.Kept him the brutal honorable dude he was in ashenvale.

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>>44913696
anon. youre making my argument for me and you dont even realize it

>>44913737
There shouldn't have needed to be a scene with Garrosh getting pissy at Sylvanas to begin with because she shouldn't have had her character turn into lollitchqueen.There's a reason why I hate basically everything about her character since wrathgate basically.

>>44913534
Why some things need to remain a mystery. Fleshing out the Horus Heresy didn't do the lore any favors.

>>44913745
2 out of 9 whine a little bit is proving your point? They're all still superhuman titans of war that personify their legions. Except alpha and omega, fuck those guys and their dumb legion. HH added depth and a good story to these legions that were just color schemes and rando paint patterns.

You'll learn when you grow up that characters are great because of their flaws, not their perfections.

>>44913696
They aren't real gods.

Fulcrum got possessed by a sword.

>>44913563
>As for ASOIAF being dogshit, you're entitled to your opinion, but the vast majority of people disagree.
Nah anon, nah. The vast majority of people enjoy the television show which has taken liberties with the source material and now moved entirely away from them. A vastly smaller amount (which I'm apart of) enjoy the books, yet acknowledge that they're pretty weak as a fantasy setting. I'll alter what I said earlier and concede the setting is grimdark.

>How is a getting Terra out of the dark ages, conquering most of the galaxy and recovering his lost children just a "positive time frame?"
Because the events happened in a time frame that was one continuous line. He created his early SM, reunited earth, reunited the sol system once the warp storms dissipated, set off on his crusade and found his children. There wasn't any negative aspects/time-frames that transpired in between those events. That's all a steady rise upwards from the precipitous downfall, yet stagnates and barely reaches half of what the golden age achieved before it all starts to role downwards once more. If this were equal and opposite there'd be a fairly more-or-less equal set of pinnacles and declines.

>>44913784
I agree, I feel like WC3 Sylvanas wouldve shot him in his mouth the second he got sassy. I do agree with her character development of raising dead bodies as new forsaken, but everyone should hate her for it. Really the Forsaken have no place as good guys in the game, but blizz cant delete them since their a playable race.

>Necrons leeching the webway off the eldar like an ex with the cell plan

>>44913833
I couldnt disagree more with you about ASOIAF, aside from him going overboard on the character descriptions a bit, I really enjoy them and think they're one of the strongest fantasy that's come out since Tolkien(which isnt really fair to compare any modern fantasy writer to).

There doesnt need to be hiccups during the rise for the fall to be great. The Golden Age wasnt supposed to be a benchmark, but a long ago ideal.Plus, you're forgetting that the Imperium arent the only characters in the 40k story. The Imperiums fall is a rise for everyone else. It's all give and take. We're literally watching the rise of the tyranids and the Tau in real time.

>>44913841
Gonna have to disagree with you. Sylvanas is smart enough to know when to play servant, hell actual loyalty to the Horde being developed over a better written Wrath would have been ideal. Furthermore I'm not too fond of her raising new forsaken in general.

Also i'd argue that there aren't really good guys in WoW. If there are, it ain't the Ally or Horde and I don't think they ever should be outside of maybe the Spacegoats and Tauren and a few named characters.

>>44913925
>actual loyalty
>undead backstabber.
ayylmao

>>44912841
Mermaids.

>>44908359
>>44910275
I am sick and tired of this lie.

If you think Oldcrons exists in the Newcron lore, then find a single example of Necrons serving C'tan.

I dare you, mofo, find it.. You can't because it doesn't exist.

C'tan shards are mostly feral and the Newcrons have anti-C'tan protocols that defend them against the C'tan. So you get do all but make oldcrons.

>>44913696

>Perturabo - ok he was a whiny little bitch

He was forced to do the job he disliked the most while getting zero credit for his accomplishments.

>>44914288

It wasnt just that he disliked it. Siege warfare is some of the most grueling, soul crushing things you can do. Even if the Iron Warriors had got a less jealous Primarch they still would have fallen.

>>44914288
What's funny that Warmaster Abaddon, while talking with an Iron Warrior,says that Pert spends most of his time building stuff on his daemon world because Pert is a craftsman and not a warlord. He was always this way.

>>44914352

Indeed and he loved democracy until Big-E found him and obviously he didn't get to do any. Doesn't change after he turned to chaos but yeah, at least he gets to nerd out his suppressed desires with building, crafting and learning shit.

>>44908412

>The Imperium Secundus
>The Emperor/Chaos deal
>Bela'kor
Relatively new to 40k. Care to explain?

>>44906243
Age of Slam's pretty cool too

>>44914397
>Care to explain?
No, I don't cause it's fucking awful, I don't mean to sound rude, but that's just it. You can probably find something on 1d4chan and desu you should probably read all the 40kshit pages on there cause it's pretty much what 40kids like to talk about.
Basically, it's "another hidden UC Gundam story" but tenfold and without pretty animation.

The Emps Chaos deal was him getting the power to make the Primarchs from the Chaos Gods or something silly like that.

>>44904440
You say that, but ironically Black Crusade erased the separation again.

>>44913899
i feel like the tyranids have already had there rise the orks are probably the closest they have ever come to a fall for that matter

your right about the tau though

>>44913338
i suppose that makes sense

i suppose its really the people who shit up threads with it i dont like more then the lore itself.

>>44913434
i really need to get back into wow even if just to see how much its fallen i started shortly after the release of cataclysm and stoped a while after mists of pandaria came out but i only stoped because the files got corupted or something and i wasent downloading all that shit again we have fuck all bandwith to spare out here.

the really annoying thing is that the disks for the expansions past i think it was wrath dont actually have any content on them its literally just the launcher which is butfuck retarded

although even having started so late i can tell it used to be better i remember when they gutted skill trees.

removing a bunch of content was a huge mistake deleting all of the data of the pre cataclysm world is just amazingly stupid.

i mostly just wish i was there for when the big battlegrounds lasted longer

>>44915398
auctualy now that i think about it i stoped just a little before whatever expansion was after pandaria warlords i think it was.

>>44903875
Xcom 2: We lost the war.

My Impossible, extended, modded, etc. game of Enemy Within says otherwise >:(

>>44915471
Well what the fuck would X-Com 2 be then?

Oh crap here come the aliens again? Time to break out all those plasma cannons we have left over.

>>44915499
Don't get me wrong, I'm fucking pumped that they're making Xcom 2, and keen as hell for it.

But I won that war.

>>44915519
X-Com 3 better be taking the war to them.

>>44915527
you know i have never actually played an xcom game i have played that fan made ufo game or whatever it was called but never a proper xcom.

i really should check them out

>>44915499
>never played UFO:EU and XCOM: Terror from the Deep

They're writing themselves into a corner going down the bad-end route.
XCOM3 will probably be aliens fighting aliens because humanity will be extinct.

>sisters of battle are the ordo hereticus' chamber militant.

>>44915564
You've only played XCOM Enemy Unknown and Within?
or do you mean the other game, made by fans that weren't part of a major studio, and a modern remake that's more faithful to the original than XCOM:EU/EI, named Xenonaughts?

Marneus Calgar punching, shooting, roaring and just generally choo choo training his way through an entire Eldar army and then catching the living, molten incarnation of war itself by surprise.

The fuck was it doing? Jamming out with its wraithbone earbuds in?

>>44904361

wtf. game books are the most based source of information. Black Library and FFG shit is literally fan fiction literally.

>>44904348
Fucking spider. Fucking Second Pit. Fucking Second City.
>muh new taint
fuck right off

>>44915605
found it
http://ufoai.org/wiki/News
ufo alien invasion

>>44903875
>Black Templar being only slightly larger than a codex chapter
A lot of the time, isn't it just the case of a new author being ignorant of previous lore? I share your feelings though, Black Templars were supposed to be the loose cannons who were so dedicated to carrying out their eternal crusade they ignored a pretty serious rule about chapter size, and so loyal and zealous they never get called out on it.
>>44904296
>Also necrons just becoming TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAACE!!
They went from being a tragic race, cursed to be born on a living hell of a planet, betrayed by cruel gods and condemned to be metal husks appearing on battlefields and marching in unison towards an incomprehensible goal, caring nothing about losses, and disappearing for inexplicable reasons, regardless of whether they were moments away from annihilating their enemy. Now they're Machiavellian, moustache-twirling villains, giggling like school children.

>>44915665
Cool thanks. Gonna check this out myself

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>>44915676
>Black Templars were supposed to be the loose cannons who were so dedicated to carrying out their eternal crusade they ignored a pretty serious rule about chapter size, and so loyal and zealous they never get called out on it.

looks like this is a case of a new anon being ignorant of previous lore. the black templars are breaking no laws. while on crusade a space marine chapter is allowed by imperial law to exceed the 1000 marine limit. the black templars are always on crusade (they legitimately are and arent just saying it as a loophole) so they are allowed greater numbers

they arent and never were "loose cannons". they are true space marines

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>>44907060
>Tau isn't anime
But literally everything about them is weeb shit. The new art makes it painfully obvious. Hell, their fluff is anime tier too, "Tau totally won that fight because reasons which I won't really back up or explain"

>>44915519
On which playthrough? I know I lost the first 3 or 4 times, so the developers have a point

>>44903875
IMPERIAL
FUCKING
GUARD

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>>44908357
So how do you explain this
>He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies
>will of the gods

>>44913107
>literally believing Imperial propaganda

>>44913696
>in HH, Alpharius and Omegon might betray humanity because they decide it's better to die as martyrs than barely surviving
>in old fluff Alpharius turned because he was butthurt at Guiliman rightfully telling him he was a shit general

>>44914386
>loved democracy
>decimated his Marines

>>44914496
You probably haven't even read that fluff and are just parroting what some butthurt faggot said, like the majority of mindless BL haters.

>>44906942
Yeah that was the case before their numbers got retconned back to chapter strength

>>44912805
You mean like Vulkan torching a planet because of aliums r gud?

>>44916253
>will of the gods
>picking individual lines to try and have a point
>forgetting all the rest that was said in the fluff, such as him being very powerful and the dark gods seeing this and working against him
>"lol nope, he totes got all his power from the gods even back then"

>>44916404
>>forgetting all the rest that was said in the fluff, such as him being very powerful and the dark gods seeing this and working against him

How does this go against what he said? They created their own worst enemy. It's very simple but you are obviously too stupid to grasp the hubris of the Chaos Gods.

>>44916253
>He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods
Source?

>>44916453
>you are obviously too stupid to grasp

Get out of here with your bait, carnac.

>>44916468
Realm of Chaos books. Anon tries to push a throw away line as proof of non-existent fluff by ignoring everything else said in there.

>>44916468
WH40K 4th edition rulebook, first page.

>>44916404
Well you obviously know everything about the Emperor, so do explain what was meant by that. Or how does it contradict anything.

>>44916489
You lying nigger, that's the intro to every BL book ever and has been in the rulebooks at least since 4th edition.

>>44916477
It ain't to bait.

And that anon is right. Try more explaining instead of green texting. Get a proper discussion here.

>>44916510
>BL books are above official GW canon

Should've just said it's been in every rulebook since 4th ed instead of inserting a retarded extra tidbit.

>>44916510
BL books can be thrown away right off as trash. Rulebooks never refer to these "gods" as gods of Chaos or dark gods. Other races have their own gods and godlike beings. This line shows that he was destined to become ruler of humanity and favored by fortune in the world where supreme Abrahamic god doesn't exist.

>>44916551
>proper discussion with carnac

Is such a thing even possible?

Where were all you faggots before BL decided the Emperor is shit and couldn't do anything before signing a pact with the dark gods? I don't remember anyone claiming he was a Chaos worshiper then. But now it's total proof that the fluff has always existed.

>>44916603
I thought he only made a pact with them to help create his kids and nothing more. Is BL claiming otherwise now?

>>44916559
So because an Abrahamic god doesn't exist in 40k, that means the Emperor became the Emperor of the Imperium because this nonexistent god, actually gods in plural, willed it so?
That's some SJW tier mental gymnastics.

>>44916603
But that never happened. It was only about the Primarchs.
Should we go back to the old fluff, where the Emperor almost got possessed by Chaos in the fight with "Horus"?

>>44916613
>he only made a pact with them to help create his kids
He never did that, new fluff is shit.

>>44916603
You think BL just comes up with what they do? Ideas like Perpetuals and Omegon were ideas in GW's vault that they told the BL writers to write them in. HH has a tight grip on the HH and nothing enters it without their say.

So by that thought, the Emperor being a oathbreaker and a theft was always a GW idea and that quote refers to the Chaos Gods who elevated him to be the Master of Mankind.

>>44904440

in which book did it say that?

>>44916632
I bet anytime you read something that mentions "by will of the gods" you immediately assume it's chaos and a rip of 40k don't you?

Fucking stupid cunt. It's lowly dogs like you that helped BL fuck up the lore with moronic explanations nobody needed or wanted.

>>44916632
>because this nonexistent god, actually gods in plural, willed it so
Quite the opposite. This line simply reminds the reader that this world isn't related to his own. There are no gods familiar to modern man. It's fantasy version of our distant future. Given how fortune and good luck is often attributed to nameless gods or spirits, these gods are just a figure of speech.

>>44916632
>Should we go back to the old fluff, where the Emperor almost got possessed by Chaos in the fight with "Horus"?

Please, lets. I'm dying to hear this.

>>44916638
CS Goto, anon, CS Goto.

>>44916638
>the Emperor being a oathbreaker and a theft was always a GW
We've always been at war with Eastasia

>>44916684
You commit the CS Goto fallacy. A classic one.

1- Cs Goto does not write HH fiction. HH fiction is heavily monitored and edited by GW.
2-GW tightened its editorial grip on BL in recent years so you won't have authors breaking the canon like he did.

Gw in recent years used BL to recton the fluff in the setting when they were unable to do so in the rulebooks. For example, the cutting down of Black Templar numbers which GW ordered Guy Haley to do.

>>44916691
Check out Dan Abnett's interviews about "Legion".

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>>44916661
>being this much of a butthurt faggot
And if something uses by the will of the gods, it almost always means the actual fucking gods willed it as such.

>>44916663
But the setting has multiple gods. Is it not more logical that GW finally explained on this sentence than just making it a random figure of speech that one must do mental gymnastics to come to?

>>44916638
Also this

>>44916638
So why isn't Perpetuals and Omegon found in any other source besides BL? Why isn't FW or GW books talking about them all the time?

>Emperor being a oathbreaker and a theft was always a GW idea

Does that mean C'tan being behind everything and then getting retconned to shards was alwso always their idea from the get-go? That Be'lakor not existing in 40k and then being behind everything was their idea all along?

When you read their shit about changing the lore on a dime to suit their IP and market appeal, claiming it's some long term plan for the plot that they've been sitting on for decades really falls flat.

>>44916717
>Check out Dan Abnett's interviews about "Legion".
I don't care about what BL books say

>>44916722
>But the setting has multiple gods.
You can't prove that it's chaos gods. It can be Eldar gods or any others if gods at all. It's a common phrase in literature and history, Which you would recognize if you wasn't Carnac.

>>44916731
*books
I mean "writers and books". Selling books and shitty fluff is their source of income.

>>44916722
>Is it not more logical that GW finally explained on this sentence than just making it a random figure of speech that one must do mental gymnastics to come to?

The line has been in the books for years and nobody ever got their panties in a twist thinking about what it meant.

>>44916722
I know, right? You tell them, anon.

Do these guys really think GW would let a freelance author change a crucial element in the setting wily nilly? Hell no. GW wanted the Emperor to be thief who robbed the Chaos Gods of their power, and they used that McNeil and his book to push that idea.

To claim otherwise is to concede that Graham McNeil has more power over the setting than the guys at GW.

>>44916717
BL hired Goto. Doesn't matter if he didn't write HH garbage. He still wrote for them, which is a stain on their track record and calls into question how much validity and control GW actually has over BL.
Without proof to back up the claim all we have are the known facts, which again was that CS Goto was a BL writer.

>>44916747
Not him.

But the only gods the Emperor have dealt and interacted with before after the HH are the Chaos Gods. The other gods are dead, missing, or don't give a damn about mankind.

Years later, it was confirmed to be the Chaos Gods beyond any doubt. Why do you even argue about this?

>>44916747
>You can't prove that it's chaos gods
Except BL proved it.
>inb4 BL isn't cannon
BL, GW and FW are equally canon.

>>44916747
>if you wasn't Carnac.
But I ain't

>>44916757
Because nobody gave a fuck. But now we have an explanation that makes it something true, not just a figure of speech.

>>44916758

ignoring everything in this thread just to push his BL hate more

>>44916783
>Except BL proved it.
>BL, GW and FW are equally canon.
BL is not canon. FW is not canon too, but many people including myself like some pieces from it.
>But I ain't
But anon you are Carnac.

>>44916783
>BL, GW and FW are equally canon.
No they're not.
GWs canon comes before both BL and FW.
FW and BL may write something but GW are the ones that have final say. That's how it is when they're the creators and holders of the WH40 license and it's subsidiaries.

>>44916762
He wrote for them in a time before GW tightened their grip on BL and he wasn't a HH author.

So he is irrelevant to this discussion. A fallacy raised to derail the debate.

>>44916783
>But now we have an explanation that makes it something true, not just a figure of speech.

Problem is that the BL text only says he used the dark gods to craft the primarchs while the old line says he's the master of mankind by the will of the gods. So which one is it?

>>44916781
>it was confirmed to be the Chaos Gods beyond any doubt
Where? In shitty retcon?

>>44916805
It brings into question the validity of your claim that GW have control over BL. The facts point to you being wrong, but you just can't see it because you're a fanboy.

>>44916725
>So why isn't Perpetuals and Omegon found in any other source besides BL? Why isn't FW or GW books talking about them all the time?

Because the GW and BL books doesn't go into the events in detail.

>Does that mean C'tan being behind everything and then getting retconned to shards was alwso always their idea from the get-go?

Considering that the retconning of the oldcron happened in stages. Yeah?

>That Be'lakor not existing in 40k and then being behind everything was their idea all along?

Outside Be'lakor helping Abaddon out, he didn't do anything much important. His appearance in 40K happened to push the model in both 40K since he wa going to be pushed in WHFB End Times too. It's a market decision that's irrelevant because.....

The Emperor being a thief has no market appeal and was done because it's an idea they liked.

>>44916843
>It brings into question the validity of your claim that GW have control over BL.

For novels AT that time.

But novels today and the HH series? No.

>>44916804
>>44916797
Double bullshit.

There was never stated. It's something you made up. Try backing it up.

>>44916809
Shitty?

It's a wonderful Promethean story in which the Emperor stole fire from the gods to give it to mankind. Back then and now, he suffered for it and continues to suffer.

But plebs have to taste. They want the Emperor to be a spotless clean saint that doesn't fit in the overrall theme of the setting.

>>44916891
no taste*

>>44916891
Try harder

>>44916902
I don't "try harder" for plebs.

>>44916797
>>44916804
Nope. GW, BL and FW are equally canon.

>>44916808
I don't know, maybe because it was the Primarchs that made the Great Crusade way easier?

>>44916871
>>44916924
>Try backing it up.
Canon is fluff that appears in rulebook, codex, datasheet, anything that is necessary to play the game. Everything else is not canon. BL and FW is not canon. Case closed

>>44916924
But it says "master of mankind by the will of the gods" not "given some help to unite humanity by the will of the gods".

How much of an impact did the primarchs even have at the end of the day, considering that he created the marines and launched the Great Crusade without them.

>>44906727
tau are grimdark. they propogade peace and progress, when in reality all it offers its servants is labor camps and servitude as meat shields in the army. it has been stated multiple times, that tau leaders despise humans and their culture.
there are times of tau commiting genocide on various races

>>44916808
No, the novel said he stole power and knowledge from the gods. The Chaos Gods made him a god in exchange he promised them something only he can deliver.

For fuck sake, when the Emperor exited the Gateway to the Gods, Alivia held him close and felt the laughter and power of the Chaos Gods inside his mind.

>>44916951
Says you.

Try something official.

>>44907898
The HH was far more interesting before they expounded upon it in excruciating detail.

>>44916854
>Because the GW and FW books doesn't go into the events in detail.

But that's the thing, anon. Even if, say, perpetuals and Omegon were part of the fluff since GW was established, written on bold red letters in the GW fluff bible they deny exists, the fact remains that if you ignore BL, they might as well never have existed. There's no mention of them in GW nor FW books.

>Considering that the retconning of the oldcron happened in stages. Yeah?

So GW's whole plan was to write a whole race into existence, then rewrite it all to effectively remove them from the setting? That's logic my consistency can't handle. I guess my market appeal isn't IP enough.

>>44916969
>Canon is fluff that appears in rulebook, codex, datasheet, anything that is necessary to play the game.
I will repeat it one more time. If you are a faggot who read some novels and never painted minis, go fuck yourself.

>>44916961
>that tau leaders despise humans and their culture.

Aun'shi, Farsight, Shadowsun, Ko'vash, the Waster Caste official in Damocles don't hate humanity.

Aun'Va did, though. The Tau are split on the issue.

>there are times of tau commiting genocide on various races

Only the races that cannot be forced to join the Greater Good.

> labor camps and servitude as meat shields in the army

Labor camps, yes.

Meat shields? The Tau fluff OUTRIGHT states numrous times that the Tau do not use ANYTHING as meat shields or cannon fodder. Not themselves, their drones, or their alien servants.

>>44916991
And I will link my past post (>>44916969).

Your opinion is not fact.

>>44916962
>The Chaos Gods made him a god in exchange he promised them something only he can deliver.

So what was he before all that? How deep does this retcon go? How does this hold up the old fluff of "by the will of the gods" if he was godlike before this encounter?

>>44917015
>So what was he before all that?

A True Perpetual like Alivia and Olly.

The Emperor and Alivia travelled to Molech to use the "Gateway to the Gods". He entered the Gateway and met the Chaos Gods and bargained with them. Their power and knowledge would he his if he submitted to their terms.

The Emperor "agreed" and took the power of the Chaos Gods. Alivia then guided him out of the Realm of Chaos into reality. The first thing he attempted to do was to seal the Gateway to the Gods but he failed because to draw close to the gods he betrayed would destroy him. He assigned poor Alivia to guard the Gateway as he left.

He returned many years later with the Great Crusade and fortified the planet. He mind erased the Primarchs that were with him on the planet and created the Fire Angel to kill anyone who attempted to learn the truth of this planet.

5.Oh the honorable Grand Marshall of the Black Templars said he had over 1000 man on Armageddon? He was clearly lying.
4. 20 Primarchs? Actually 21, I just forgot I had a son
3.What called Tyranid fleets to our space? Maybe the giant psychic lantern called the Emperor (who dealt with chaos gods,before it is clear that he is evil)
Oh,no ULTRAMARINES, THE FINEST OF THEM ALL DID IT
2.That guy that took the blow meant for an Emperor? Ehh,he died thousand times before. And he will die thousand times after. Better praise others that did it and lived only once like SPACE MARINES
1.Emperor stealing power of even making a fucking deal with Chaos Gods
0. FUCKIING AGE OF SIGMAR IS THE HEAVEN FOR RETCONS,BLAND FLUFF,SHIT RULES AND WRITERS ARE PROPABLY CHAINED SOMEWHERE IN THE GW'S BASEMENT AND FORCED TO WRITE OR THE WONT GET FOOD. IT CHANGED SIGMAR FROM CONAN THE BARBARIAN INTO THE HATECHILD OF THOR AND THE EMPEROR,ARCHAON IS SUDDENLY MULTIDIMENSIONAL WORLD DESTROYER AND SLAYERS JUST FUCKING SET THEIR HAIR ON FIRE AND PRETEND THEY ARE WHITE SALAMANDERS

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>>44915519
You won in that dimension, yes. Your Volunteer went to a different dimension and in one of those dimensions, you lost. Vigilo Confido.

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>arguing with Carnac
>arguing the same old argument with Carnac
>while accusing non-Carnac anon of being Carnac

Well, I guess the thread was about nerds being mad from the start anyway.

>>44917082
>A True Perpetual like Alivia and Olly.

So, a mere freak. No more shamans. No more guiding humanity. No more coming of Chaos nor rebirthing through the warp. Gods no longer have any control of their subjects and anyone can just fuck them over like dirty little bitches.

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>>44917113
What? You can't handle ANIMEEEEEE

Also it's universes, not just worlds. We are in the big leagues now.

>>44917155
>So, a mere freak. No more shamans. No more guiding humanity.

Don't be so sure.

Alivia says the True Perpetuals were cunningly created. Though they are very resistant to Chaos, they can be tempted.

The keyword here is "created".

>>44917155
>no proofs: the post

>>44917144
>>while accusing non-Carnac anon of being Carnac
Fucking thank you

>>44914386

where in the fluff is any of this established?

>>44917204
>no proofs: the post

Ok, so how does the current fluff uphold all that. Do tell me.

>>44917199
Created by who and for what purpose?

>>44917144
>while accusing non-Carnac anon of being Carnac

If you act like a bitch, you gonna get treated like a bitch.

>>44917249
I admit I haven't read the latest HH books, but as far as I know we have no explanation on how Perpetuals actually work. Nor has BL expanded upon the Emperors origin.
Shamans could still be normal Perpetuals and they sacrificed themselves to create the Emperor. The Perpetuals in HH could be unique and stronger individuals who managed to keep their powers.

>>44917312
Might be Shamans, might be the Cabal, or perhaps it might be Be'lakor.

Keep reading the HH to find out.

>>44917312
In the old fluff shamans were reborn through the warp like all powerful psykers, like the Eldar (fuck off, Gav). They saw the coming of Chaos and knew this cycle would be coming to an end. They committed ritual suicide and pooled their souls into one body where they could live as long as possible and continue to guide humanity. Now you have perpetuals that can just regenerate/be reborn, so clearly it's not impossible, making what the shamans did seem a bit weird. And there's no reason for the shamans to pool themselves into one body if several exists.

If the Emperor is just a perpetual, then what's his mission and what's his goal? He'd just be a dude, even if immortal, who does what he wants. Why is he the top dog over all the other perpetuals?

In the old days gods could punish their followers by removing their powers or limiting them. Even Be'lakor in Storm of Chaos was punished by his hubris to forever crown the Everchosen of the gods and impotently rage over his plight. Now, by giving their power to an individual, they're basically signing it off for good and trusting the other person to hold up their end of the deal. Be'lakor fucked them over and they can't do anything to stop him. Emperor, apparently, took their powers and ran, and they can't do anything about it. So what threat are they, when anyone they give power to can just keep it and the gods can't stop them?

If GW wants me to take this new fluff hook, line and sinker, they better explain what the new rules and regulations are, because without having any idea what's going on or how anything related to anything, it's a mess. But they will never explain it, because market appeal and IP.

>>44904321
Part of becoming a SM is your skin will alter it's tone depending on the levels of UV it's exposed to.
Most Marines are white not because they come from planet Cracker, but because their lifestyle and clothing choices lead to minimal sun exposure.

Regardless, Salamanders already recruit from a world where everyone is dark skinned, so they're double-black.

I refuse to accept the Ecclesiarchy took all it's teachings from Logar's daddy worship.
His teachings were throughly censored and destroyed. Literally nothing should have survived.
Coupled with the Ecclesiarchy would have been erradicated once the Marines and Custodes got wind of where the books had come from, not just ignore it.
And also again, the Ecclesiarchy wasn't anything special, there was thousands of God-Emperor religions popping up and falling down constantly. They were just the one to survive and thrive. Literally nothing about that suggests they Had help from a book that the Emperor personally saw burned like so many Harry Potter novels at a Catholic Church.

>>44917405
>99% of Perpetuals can't be reborn anymore
>kill themselves to create the Emperor
>the Emperor guides humanity from the shadows, until he is forced to start leading from
the front
And the Emperor can fuck with the Chaos gods because he is the strongest psyker in the world. He is untouchable in the real world. Unlike Daemons or other Warp entities, he doesn't have to interact with the Chaos gods in the warp. That's why the Great Crusade was so rushed and that's why he clings on to life on the Golden Throne. The Chaos gods are too strong in the Warp nowadays. But humanity achieving their psychic evolution, creating the human webway and suppressing religion in the majority of humanity was his way to weaken them, so he could once again fight them in the Warp.

Apart from minor changes, the Perpetuals and the Emperor arcs don't contradict or entirely retcon the original Shaman Emperor fluff.

>>44917596

Small Nitpick: The burnings of those were protestant, not Catholic.

>>44917634
>99% of Perpetuals can't be reborn anymore

Why not?

>kill themselves to create the Emperor

Can they do that?

>until he is forced to start leading from the front

So we just ignore all the fluff that says he's been many influential figures in history?

>the strongest psyker in the world

Who can't be the master of mankind without the will of the gods.

Still doesn't explain how Be'lakor is able to be untouched by the dark gods as well.

>Unlike Daemons or other Warp entities, he doesn't have to interact with the Chaos gods in the warp.

But all other mortal followers of the dark gods can be fucked over by the dark gods just fine.

>That's why the Great Crusade was so rushed and that's why he clings on to life on the Golden Throne. The Chaos gods are too strong in the Warp nowadays. But humanity achieving their psychic evolution, creating the human webway and suppressing religion in the majority of humanity was his way to weaken them, so he could once again fight them in the Warp.

My mental dexterity isn't enough for these gymnastics.

>>44917840
>Still doesn't explain how Be'lakor is able to be untouched by the dark gods as well.

How is Be'lakor untouched? They nerfed his power but couldn't take all of it or punish him further because he escaped into Real Space.

What's different between fantasy Be'lakor and 40K Be'lakor is that fantasy Be'lakor was banished into the Warp by the Elven Vortex shortly after he offended the Chaos Gods. Fantasy Be'lakor was then was tortured and denied a mind and a form. 40K Be'lakor escaped their wrath and wasn't punished (except for the draining of his power to ascend other mortals). He chilled in real space until the Chaos Gods forgot about him.

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>>44918070
>But all other mortal followers of the dark gods can be fucked over by the dark gods just fine.

Also is AoS lore permitted?

Because the Chaos Gods in AoS spent an entire age trying to destroy Archaon but their efforts failed. He is now as much as their enemy as he is their ally.

Archaon is the guy fucking over the Chaos Gods by turning their servants against them and turning his blade against his own patrons whenever it suits him.

So there is precedent to mortal servants of Chaos being headaches for the Chaos Gods.

>>44918070
If the gods had any power, they would have stripped him of their gifts. If they can do it to mortals, they can do it to princes no matter where they go. You don't stop being a daemon just because you're in real space and you never lose your contact with the warp.

But the gods couldn't stop him and couldn't strip him of his powers. He was so beyond them that they decided to never make any other undivided prince ever again because they can't control them.

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>>44918104
>Also is AoS lore permitted?

As long as it can be used to point out the absurdity of things.

nWoD.

Or, sorry, I mean "Chronicles of Darkness" ahahaha

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>>44918142
You do know that powerful daemon princes can become minor Chaos Gods in their own right? (picture related). They do that by severing their ties to the Chaos Gods. Be'lakor is powerful enough to hide himself from their wrath inside Real Space. Mortals (outside of Abaddon) can't tell the Chaos Gods to fuck themselves like Daemon Princes.

The Chaos Gods couldn't get at him directly so they took most of his power and spread to their newly raised daemon princes.

>He was so beyond them that they decided to never make any other undivided prince ever again because they can't control them.

The problem with Be'lakor is that he sworn to four sires. This means as long as the Chaos Gods are divided, then they have no direct control over him. However, they can influence him actions so much that he practically has no freewill. His actions mirror the Great Game of Chaos and he is blind to this fact.

I think the promblem here is that you thought that the Chaos Gods are omnipotent and omniscient.

>>44914227
well there's a line about damaged tombs and all the necrons being too retarded to realize they don't have to be slaves now. So there ya go, if you aren't fully accepting of the new shitty fluff, you can just play as the drooling morons, you moron.

the fact that everyone fights all the time kinda makes no sense to me
I mean, you are in space
space
fucking space, if someone bothers you, you just move, you are in space, just find a new star to cover all energy needs, just mine an asteroid for all precious metals, done

but then again greenland is a huge place with only 40000 people living on it, basically an abandoned continent, empty space everywhere, and it has a pretty high murder rate

I just dont get it

Games 2 and 3 in mass effect. Fun to play, but they butchered the story.

>>44918287
>You do know that powerful daemon princes can become minor Chaos Gods in their own right?

You mean people worship them as gods, sure. Many princes and daemons rule worlds and are worshiped as gods. Even the C'tan were worshiped as gods. And the Emperor.

And your picture says "it said". I find it amusing that a god is being used as a mere vehicle upgrade.

>This means as long as the Chaos Gods are divided, then they have no direct control over him.

How so? Just take back what you gave him. One god doing it shouldn't require the backing of the other 3.

>However, they can influence him actions so much that he practically has no freewill. His actions mirror the Great Game of Chaos and he is blind to this fact.

And other pieces of fluff says he's free of the gods and beyond their control. So which one is correct?

>I think the promblem here is that you thought that the Chaos Gods are omnipotent and omniscient.

No, I thought the fluff that says the gods give and remove gifts from daemons and mortals was actually true, giving the gods power over them. But clearly they can't do shit once power has been given to someone, just hope the person upholds their end of the deal.

>>44918715
>well there's a line about damaged tombs and all the necrons being too retarded to realize they don't have to be slaves now

You lying piece of shit.

There is no such line in any of the Newcron codexes.

>>44918070
>>44918104
>>44918287
>>44918864
pls just go

>>44907902
They literally use katanas you mongoloid.

>>44916083
Well, the communist-fascist stuff really isn't, neither, I would argue, is the O-yoroi armor.

I'm totally up for agreeing they have manga and anime influences, I'm just not going to accept that its such a huge fucking departure from what we already have.

>>44908019
>Guys Eldars are also other things that weeb, therefore it's not weeb at all.

>>44918895
No.

>>44918977
>maximum damage control

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>>44918800
Because it's not just a matter of picking a direction and going there. The warp has mappable paths that are safer or calmer. These define where travel is possible and what locations are strategically valuable in the same way that trade winds and ocean currents defined it during the Age of Sail. Sure, you could not follow the safe paths and try to take a shortcut, but you'll probably end up in a warp storm or lost and blinded with half your crew missing.

>>44916253
I've read every alpha legion book and never found out anything about why A&O fell. I figured they just intended for it to not be known since alpha legion is all mysterious, some people think that they're still secretly loyal.

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Why can't we all get along?

>>44919085
That's because it hasn't been written yet. There's plenty of signs in the later HH stories that there's going to be some sort of civil war within the Alpha Legion before the end of the Heresy.

>>44904462
But that explenation makes him so much... less, he's not remotlybwoth worshiping with that interpritation, now he's just some power hungry goon mo different from any other tyrant

>>44916661
The Chaos gods are the only gods in 40k. They're the only ones that do anything tangible.

>>44919109
It's almost as if the M41 writings are written from the perspective of the Ecclesiarchy and that the truth doesn't matter, only what the people of the Imperium believe to be true... just like real life...

>>44909892
The necrons need to park back the retcon a bit, push it into a middle ground, hilight the tragic and horror aspects in equal parts, silent king can still be doing his thing, lords can still do their thing but they need a layer of general menace added, not like chaos menace but more like the orks or nids, they don't hate you, you are too beneath them to hate, you're just in the way, make the lack of malice more frightening, the idea that even when they parlay you walk the razors edge

>>44916804
You're retarded. GW FW and BL are all the same. Its just compartmentalized.

>>44918817
>How so? Just take back what you gave him. One god doing it shouldn't require the backing of the other 3.

It's a team venture. One god can't have say in it.

>And your picture says "it said". I find it amusing that a god is being used as a mere vehicle upgrade.

Half of the majority 40K fluff begins with "it is said".

>And other pieces of fluff says he's free of the gods and beyond their control. So which one is correct?

Which one? The only one. It' like Be'lakor was plenty of lore sources in 40K. Try going through his dataslate where it's said he has no freewill

>But clearly they can't do shit once power has been given to someone, just hope the person upholds their end of the deal.

Only when it comes to those special and powerful few.

>>44912001
My visual is essentially space skaven but without any of the goofy comedy, they become a true menace

>>44919136
>god-emperor holds back Chaos, enables FTL communication and guides ships of the fleet
>star gods destroyed the Old Ones and even in sharded form command immense power to warp reality
>isha helps mortals combat the diseases of nurgle
>laughing god protects the harlequins and makes a mockery of the dark gods
>khaine, even if sharded, still guides the eldar in battle
>gork and mork ork around, untouchable to the dark gods

>>44913422
Here is how I see the necron thing. You know how the Tau live because the imperium has bigger fish to fry, that's what the imperium is to the necrons

>>44917113
wait, 21? when did that happen?

>>44919175
Explain the section about the Old Word in the Lost and the Damned.

>>44913698
You mean like how the only reason they tried to make Kerrigan iredeemable in brood war was because of Metzin having a bad divorce? Followed up with backpeddling because of his marrage? Why is it that only sad things make writers more interesting?

>>44919045
If I was doing damage control I'd change my argument and go after what others said, instead of reiterating what I said.

>>44919226
Alpharius and Omegon. One soul, two bodies. Written by Abnett, confirmed by Alan Merrett as something that was always believed by the older writers but simply never stated.

>>44914435
It needs more fleshing out

>>44919233
I don't because Rogue Trader-era material should all be thrown away.

>>44919304
You know what the best of the Lost of the Damned was? The Chaos Gods failing to find the Emperor after the battle with Horus. The Warp and Chaos are one, but they can't find one soul? Emps is confirmed to be a komando.

>>44919195
>It's a team venture. One god can't have say in it.

And what is the punishment of if one god pulls back his gifts from them? Will the other gods tag-team the god for daring to weaken the person that betrayed them?

>it is said Half of the majority 40K fluff begins with "it is said".

FTFY

>Which one? The only one.

Be'lakor has way more bits of him in the lore than one dataslate.


>Only when it comes to those special and powerful few.

And how do these gain the power to defy the gods? What makes them so much greater than any other powerful being that is a bitch to the gods? The likes of Skarbrand, the mightiest greater daemon of the mightiest god, who sought to beat his master, still got his ass handed to him by Khorne no problems and his powers reduced. But a mere mortal with some power is far beyond the dark gods, it seems.

>>44919258
>evasive maneuvers!

>>44903875
Pretty much everything that originated the HH series or a Wardian codex.
Bela'kor

>>44919304
>throw away anything that makes any sense anymore

You're not even trying anymore, are you, GW?

>>44919208
You're confusing powerful beings and GODS.

I'll admit to knowing dick-all about the laughing god.

Gork and Mork are just ideals, they dont really exist.

>>44919175
So your that guy who thinks the current art of Emperor vs Horus is the mythologized version

>>44919262
oh gotcha, I dont even count them as primarchs in my head canon. They suck so bad.

>>44919351
>Material that hasn't been referenced in any capacity in over 20 years.

It's never coming back.

>>44919398
I consider all 40k artwork to be mythologized in some capacity. Especially if it's not from a FW HH book.

>>44919500
>I consider all 40k to be mythologized in some capacity
Most fun way to go about 40k to be honest

>>44919521
And by 40k as a franchise, including 30k, to clear that up for any autists.

>>44919386
>You're confusing powerful beings and GODS.

What is a "god" then, if not a being worshiped as one? The dark gods are nothing but vortexes of mortal emotions given sentience. There is nothing there more godly than there is in the eldar gods.

>>44909647

Butthurt Crane detected.

>>44919475
For it to come back it would need to have gone away at some point.

I already said it before, the moment GW decides to make some sense of the new fluff, I'll at least try and believe it. But at the moment there's no consistency or logic. We have no idea what to believe, no way of knowing what is real and what is not. And they will never tell us, because they don't give two shits. They're ready to change anything and everything for no reason and you're shit for not just accepting it.

If they don't care, why should I?

>>44919475
The Illuminati came back in the Czevak novel. Though technically it wasn't an appearance. They were mentioned by name in the Black Library of Chaos

>>44919329
>And what is the punishment of if one god pulls back his gifts from them? Will the other gods tag-team the god for daring to weaken the person that betrayed them?

Be'lakor despite his insubordination is a powerful shared tool in the Great Game.

>Be'lakor has way more bits of him in the lore than one dataslate.

There is only four sources of fluff featuring Be'lakor in 40K. None of them mention that he does have freewill but the opposite. As his great fan, I demand you tell me this fifth mysterious source.

> But a mere mortal with some power is far beyond the dark gods, it seems.

There are no mere mortals. The Emperor id a god and Be'lakor, as the audiobook "The First Prince" says about him, is a being on the second tier of godhood.

>>44909819

Appeal to age, appeal to authority, thete are a couple other fallacies the pro-Squat types run into.

Combine that with the majority of people here gaving never heard of 40k prior to the Dawn of War games, ir Warhammer wednesdsy.... Actually, nah, they probably came here in the last 1-3 years because of D&D, Pathfinder and quests then picked up 40k via osmosis.

Its not like most of /tg/ plays games, either.

So yeah, no one actually cares about Squats except a few salty old grognards.

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>>44919262
>confirmed by Alan Merrett as something that was always believed by the older writers but simply never stated.

It wasn't something they "believed" (unless there's another source of behind-the-scenes information on the tweest that I'm not aware of), simply an idea they had, which is easy enough to imagine. And maybe not even necessarily with Alpharius or any specific Primarch in mind; perhaps the concept was just lying around, unattached to a particular character, until Abnett came to suggest his own ideas for Legion and Merrett decided Alpharius was the best candidate for it.

>>44919675
I wonder if they looked as smug when Guilliman punched one's face in.

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Say hello to carnac everyone!

>>44919675
I just figured robutte guilliman was ment to be the omega to alpharius, I mean it's their insignia for crying out loud

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>pictured, carnac and belakock

>>44919732
I doubt carnak is that sexy

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>ur facewhen teh dark masturbator reveals he is the real power behibd abaddon!!

>>44919642
>As his great fan

As if that was ever in doubt.

>There is only four sources

I'm sorry, I thought there was only one.

>The Emperor id a god

By the will of the gods, remember?

>and Be'lakor is a being on the second tier of godhood.

Thanks to the dark gods and the power they alone have bestowed upon him.

So it's the power of the dark gods that makes them what they are, but somehow this makes them too powerful for the dark gods to stop giving them power. Wut?

>>44919748
Carnac spends way too much time on 4chan playing thought police to be sexy,

So, help clarify this: is Perturabo genuinely autistic? Putting aside the compulsion /tg has with this word.

He ended up with the worst job of the crusade. He was well rounded enough to pursue a lifestyle outside of war mongering. Was a builder and statesman. Made a bizarre, almost uncharacteristic purge upon inheriting a legion. What's his case?

>>44919803
>Made a bizarre, almost uncharacteristic purge upon inheriting a legion.
Except it wasn't. It was bizarre for the Imperium, but on his homeworld rule through fear and execution was a common and effective practice.

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>>44917840
Nigger it's the same fucking story as with the shamans. Just replace Shamans with Perpetuals. As far as the current HH books are concerned, they retconed shamans into being named Perpetuals, thrown in a few stronger ones that can respawn on their own and explained how the Emperor created the primarch. You are just autisticly hanging onto every word I said to sperg out. Fuck you
>My mental dexterity isn't enough for these gymnastics.
These gymnastics are supported by the GW fluff. The Emperor was strong enough to fuck with Chaos gods in real space, but he is too weak to face them in the Warp.
Pic related and the fact reality literally explodes into Chaos if he is killed support that.

>>44918977
>O-yoroi armor isn't weeb
Still chink influenced and I'm sure there are enough animes with samurai armor in them.
And Tau aren't communist.

>>44919085
That's why I said MIGHT. HH will be milked as long as it brings in cash, so until then nothing concrete will be completely explained.

>>44919706
>resorting to posting gay weeb shit because you can't help but sperging out when somebody points out that your headcanon isn't valid

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>>44919701
Probably, since even after Roboute killed whoever he killed, the Alphas were able to make him ragequit. Allegedly.

"Death is nothing compared to vindication."
Oh no, wait, that was that other faggot.

>>44919732
I don't think this one is futa or homo tho, are you sure it belongs here?

>>44919861
Really? I guess you can't blame a man for his upbringing, but I thought he was dispassionate enough to observe such methods for what they are: unecessary. He seemed pretty chill back on Olympia.

>>44919898
Calm your shit, carnac, nobody gives a fuck.

>>44919759
>So it's the power of the dark gods that makes them what they are, but somehow this makes them too powerful for the dark gods to stop giving them power. Wut?

Both the Emperor and Be'lakor fled into real space to escape the wrath of the Chaos Gods. Since he has no ties with them, he escaped unscathed. Be'lakor escaped but the Chaos Gods managed to drain the majority of his power since he was still connected to them because he is their firstborn son.

tl;dr The Chaos Gods have limited influence on Real Space. It's the perfect hiding place.

>>44919898
>replace Shamans with Perpetuals.

So, perpetuals are powerful psykers who can transfer their soul from body to body now?

>explained how the Emperor created the primarch

But it was the dark gods that gave him the ability to do that.

I wonder why only some primarchs were made perpetuals and not all or none.

>You are just autisticly hanging onto every word I said to sperg out.

If you don't want people to respond to what you say, stop posting.

>Pic related and the fact reality literally explodes into Chaos if he is killed support that.

Only in the gym of your mind, man. You see what you want to see, because it's all you got left.

>>44919598
I am one of the four guys in existence who like both the Crab and the Crane. Although I prefer the Crab.

>>44919898
>And Tau aren't communist.

...
They're the fucking red guard turned up to ludicrous degrees.

>>44919953
Do explain to me how all the other mortal followers of Chaos are not so lucky to fend the influence of their gods and stop them from taking back their gifts if they so choose. Explain to me how a daemon and a psyker can sever their connection to the warp.

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>>44919945
>implications

>>44920001
>So, perpetuals are powerful psykers who can transfer their soul from body to body now?
Nowhere has it been stated that all shamans are also psykers, only that they could reincarnate. The same thing Perpetuals can do

>But it was the dark gods that gave him the ability to do that.
>I wonder why only some primarchs were made perpetuals and not all or none.
Yeah, and?
And because he decided to do it like that. Or maybe it will be explained later.

>If you don't want people to respond to what you say, stop posting.
M8 there is a difference between arguing on 4chan for the sake of it and sperging out like you are.

>Only in the gym of your mind, man. You see what you want to see, because it's all you got left.
Pic related

>>44920026
They are what Americlaps think of as communism.

>>44920049
>Explain to me how a daemon and a psyker can sever their connection to the warp.

Both of them are quite capable and godlike psykers and sorcerers. They will managed to it by just being that awesome.

I mean the dataslate of Be'lakor makes it clear that Be'lakor spent the majority of his time in the galaxy trying to erase his trail and hide his presence.

>>44915607
say what you will about the ultramarines, but their fluff has been very consistant on just how fucking bad it is over the many editions since they got the upgrade to teachers favorite

>>44920079
>Nowhere has it been stated that all shamans are also psykers

You mean other than their very fluff, such as the Realm of Chaos books?

>Pic related

And what part of that says the Emperor's escape to real space protects him from the dark gods?

>>44920137
>Both of them are quite capable and godlike psykers and sorcerers. They will managed to it by just being that awesome.

Translation: Fuck you, that's why.

I want to know why the dark gods can't sever their connection to the warp and just escape to real space. Surely they're even more powerful than the emperor or be'lakor.

>I mean the dataslate of Be'lakor makes it clear that Be'lakor spent the majority of his time in the galaxy trying to erase his trail and hide his presence.

Do point me to the part where it says he's doing it to stop the dark gods from taking away his powers or that it actually had any bearing on whether or not they can do it.

>>44920221
>And what part of that says the Emperor's escape to real space protects him from the dark gods?

Not him.

Alivia in " Vengeful Spirit" states that should the Emperor draw near to the beings he stole his power from, he would die. It's the reason he couldn't close the Gateway to the Gods.

>>44903875
Basically everything that happened in the Emperor's Gift

>>44920079
>They are what Americlaps think of as communism.

...
No fucking shit.
Obviously they're not actual good utopian communists.
Because it's fucking 40k you dumbass.