Hell is never referred to as a firey place in the bible. Its

Because you're there.

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In the bible a rich man begs Abraham and Lazarus for just a drop of water. While that doesn't necessarily mean fire, it does sound pretty shitty...

>>19442548
I've been to hell, it's worse than you can imagine. Think you're tough? You won't last a second in there.

>>19442658
How did you

>>19442631
When did the rich man die in the bible?
>>19442658
Shut the fuck up lier

>>19442669
DXM trip, not a fun place

>>19442548
I know they describe it as the lake of fire. I feel like "fire" is a theme that comes up a lot when talking about hell.

>>19442548
In some earlier versions of the bible, Lucifer was a dragon after being banished to hell. There's nothing describing him has a goat hooved man with horns

God is the epitome of good. Hell is existence in total absence from God.

>How do I know God is good
God is an omnibenevolent, noncontingent origin.

It's a figure of speech. In "reality" Hell is a place where your regret emotion is cranked up to 99999999 and you feel a very massive... HUMUMGOUS sense of remorse and sorrow.


My theory is that Hell could also be the boss fight from Siren: Blood Curse
That wierd ass Rorshach effect in that level really got to me.

>why is hell so bad?

Because you're surrounded by fedoras

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>>19443027
>My theory is that Hell could also be the boss fight from Siren: Blood Curse
So, Kaiko is Satan? Does that mean that we have to "Use The Fruit" to defeat it?

>>19442631
the rich man clearly says I AM TORMENTED

IN
THIS
FLAME

lol
hell is fire you cucks

You're already dead

This is hell

>>19442710
So you were hallucinating, and thus literally do not have any credibility

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I don't think hell is ever described in the bible (at least not with fire)

I think the description of hell with fire that we all refer to was out of the book called donte's inferno (spelling, who gives a shit)

>>19443206
There are plenty of medical explanations to the complex situations and beings you experience whilst using hallucinogenic plants. But to assume that these situations and beings exist only in your mind, is bad science. Bad logic.
Simply put, when you use a telescope to see a star you aim it at the star in the sky and then focus it.
Inside the telescope, focusing the lens involves the interaction of the lenses down the chamber. As you focus it, the star eventually comes into view.

It would be stupid to assume that the star only exists because of the change inside the barrel of the telescope.
And it would be stupid to assume that the entities encountered whilst hallucinating are inside of your head.

>>19442548
Like darkness is just the absence of life. So this god can not be the highest in order since he is not absolute in his extent. YHWH is not god with big G. He is a medium between, a lesser god. But since he is not absolute, we might be able to overcome him

>>19443231
This was meant for
>>19443207
This guy

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>>19442548
>>19442548

smoking weed then finding this thread...

Hell is the desert
literal physical desert of Arabia and Egypt
living in there is hot in the day (classic hell) and cold as fuck in the night (pagan hell, niffelheimr and shit)
Hell is torment because you're isolated, you're far from God and whatever makes you live well. but the body is a curse so it tries to go on despite being in an unsolvable horror that will slowly kill you but you'll never actually die so torment is eternal.

Hell in fact is just punishment that was given to heretics amongst the ages. Once your soul leaves the body you no longer feel the mundane feelings that would bother you in actual hell.

source: my ass

>>19443231
This is an interesting metaphor and I am a drug using dmt smoking nut who is inclined to believe it, but at the same time.. why should drugs and consciousness work the same was as telescopes? Seems like wishful thinking

>>19443284
It's good hey, but it's a broken metaphor. It's supposed to sound correct but isn't logically sound really. I actually genuinely believe DMT, Ayahuasca and all other entheogenic plants or me into contact with entities tho desu

I would imagine being on fire 24/7 is pretty tormenting, so it wouldn't be surprising.

Hell really just is depression and being unhappy with life.

>>19442548
this world is the fused balance of heaven and hell
hell is one side of disharmony
if your body dies in soem sapce but you survive in soem dimensions you may eb able to wander across the dimensions that make up heaven and hell
they would have to be existing in the same way as your soul and mind free will
desu subjectiveness measn most people would have wildly discordant opinions on which sides are which
of couirse the binary of heaven and hell is quite a simplification
sorry for the poor elaboration - this is more revealed than refined

>>19443180
maybe this afterlife is just lookign back on your life
the torment is realising he wasted his life, squandered his true gifts and was not a good, great, moral person of great importance.
the good people can then look at this and feel good because even through the shit bits they tried to be good people, and had a good effect in this world.

>>19443231
>And it would be stupid to assume that the entities encountered whilst hallucinating are inside of your head.

That postulating that an 'outside reality' exists which is 'real'. All you're seeing is distortions at best and therefore 'hallucinations' have equal merit. Pick your poison. All your perceptions are flawed.

>>19443722
Or they're just different kinds of perception. Neither flawed.

>>19442548

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

>>19442548
>Hell is never referred to as a firey place in the bible.

Matthew 5:22

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Mark 9:44

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 14:10

they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

>>19442548
What if we're already there?

>>19442548
From what I saw it really isn't so bad. In fact it's kind of reassuring.

Basically it's where you go when you want to get away from God. Since God is everywhere that means just one thing: completely destroying yourself.

You've got to really mean it. You subject yourself to torture, you torture others, all to try and strip away any bit of yourself capable of even processing it happening. It goes on and on for ages and ages and ages until the agony fades, and you're ready to cross the boundary into hell proper and do the slow, slow fade into nothing.

It's nice to know we've got the choice.

By the way, for the record: nobody ever chooses for you. You never get "judged". You don't need to get anyone's "approval". Just do whatever you feel like, change your mind... it's a free infinite continuum.

>>19442548
I forget where in the Bible this line comes from but you should meditate on its implications: "There are spirits created for vengeance".

>>19442927
where in the Bible does it say this?

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>>19443788
>those who practice magic arts
>hey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur
Get jesus out of /x/
please mods
ban jesus
I'm so sick of jesus jesus jesus holy fucking shit
it's called the holy bible cause it's full of holes

Because you're starved of something essential. You may as well ask why being without food or water is bad.

>>19444135
that's the spirit #banjesus this is /x/ land, we practice magic here let us be

>>19442548
Hell is bad because the bible was written during a time when there was no form of centralized law enforcement or prisons. Therefore, in order to keep the populace civil you have to exaggerate reality (due to a lack of practical means) to regulate human behavior.

>>19443100
In a way, or it could be just us stuck on that map without any boss, left to the horrors of the textures all around us

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>>19442548
Hell is multiple times referred to as a “lake of fire” in the Bible...

>>19444575
Shhhhh, you'll wake the Gentiles...

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>>19444565
>just us stuck on that map without any boss, left to the horrors of the textures all around us
>Implying that Satan wouldn't be the entirety of that psychedelic nightmare.
I have personally grown to believe that Satan may very well be Hell itself.

>>19444806
is the woman clothed in the sun part of God or part of Satan???

>>19444575
Hell is real - as a place of great suffering but it is not fire(fire is just a metaphor) and most importantly it is impermenant as discovered by the Buddha.

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I'm surprised no one has brought up the 9 circles of hell

In dates inferno its freezing cold. It's fucking bad. Cold still burns.

hell is not bad, it is needed. gives us a place to send the wrong.

>>19442548
>why is the place referred to as a "place of torment" bad, u guize? XXDDDDDDDD

>>19443006
>condemns millions of people to eternal suffering for a variety of petty and victimless crimes
>good
Pick one (1)

>>19443788
>expecting Christians to have actually read any of their holy book
Kek

>>19445019
and who decides who is wrong?
because so far most people just assume it's "everyone we disagree with"

hell can't exist because it would be empty, everyone who is evil because YOU think they are is not evil in someone else's mind, if at least they're own
they all had reasons for their actions that they truly believed were right, or weren't really in control

you don't earn eternal punishment because you were born broken like clinical psycopathy or scitzophrenia

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>>19444806
I see fractal archons. Is the woman Sophia?

>>19445019
Define EXACTLY who's wrong, then. Rapists and murders? Fine, I agree that's morally wrong and such people are deserving of punishment. People who don't believe the same things you do? Well, then Hitler's in Hell, but his cellmate is Anne Frank. See the problem here?

>>19445087
>implying God condemns you
>implying you didn't condemn yourself

>>19443207
Nope. It was to show me the hell that the demons attacking me are going to. I'm pleased.

>>19442903
I agree. Water is life in the Bible, so fire must mean death? Or something along those lines

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>>19442710
>yeah, ive been to [enter destination here]
>no, i wasn't actually there physically. But i tripped out on drugs and went there in my mind

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>>19442548
>>19442617

>Its only referred to a place of torment because it is without god which is the worst thing imaginable to christfags. So i ask you, why is hell so bad?

Imagine eternal consciousness in a black void with nothing to see, hear, smell, taste, or feel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54

>>19445656
I was there physically.

>>19444845
>and most importantly it is impermenant as discovered by the Buddha.

Elabore this plz, what buddha spoke about hell/suffering after life?

>>19445443
That's like saying "The judge didn't sentence that guy to death by lethal injection, the guy himself did."

>>19445916
The choices the guy made through his life, generally speaking, is further proof to your statement.

If I kill someone and end up on deathrow, guess what? I didn't know how to cover the tracks and I did it to myself, putting myself on death row.

>>19445673
Did you bring anything back?

>inb4 nothing physical

>>19443006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gsamzXOLjQ

Ps; christ god is gay.

>>19445916

Why did the state give him a lethal injection for no reason!?!?

>>19445921
Haha there's no souvenirs. Nothing to grab. Just you suffering. Stay scared.

>>19443214
Dante

hell is the absence of god. of all things good. so if you can imagine utter despair, thats what hell is

>>19443705
No and I'll tell you why, if that were what mattered to going there or not NOBODY would go yo heaven. You don't go there based on how you lived you life or how moral you were because it doesn't matter what you do it's not good eniugh.

Only ONE gas ever accomplished this by living a perfect, sinless life and his name is Jesus. By HIS grace do we get out of the punishment, his grace that he extends his righteousness to us though we do Not deserve it. He is truly the blessed God Almighty who suffered and died for ALL me that they may not perish but have eternal life.

Believe on the LORD that he died and was ressurected. Or face eternal hellfire and rightly so.

>>19446198
Your god is a fascist cunt

>>19446104

>look! I found a contradiction in a popular desert story!
>This proves god is dead and we have no creator

Atheists are so desperate to hide from god.

>>19446215
Explain.

>>19446225
He sends people for not following his strict and rather dictatorial doctrine to hell. Even people who just want to die and kill themselves go there. If hes real he should be hated.

>>19445916
Umm, Anon...

>>19446237
Suicide does not condemn you to hell.

You should read the bible instead of listening to others, myself included.

Just assume there is a God, how could you, a mere creation compared to an eternal and all powerful being, judge him?

Is that not the height of arrogance?

Consider that you actually might be wrong and that God would know infinitely more than you.

>>19446215
>Implying fascism is bad

>>19446262
Hes still a fucking dictator for sending people to hell for petty things. Why do you belive in god and think hes right?

>>19446274
>this is what christcucks really believe

>>19446237
Atheist. You don't go to hell for killing yourself. But you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. (Survival of the fittest)

>>19446287
You replied to my post, now you are my gf

>>19446280
You missed the point entirely. From you're extremely limited perspective you have to admit that you may not fully understand why they would go to hell.

The human heart is wicked and deceitful.

He offers such an easy way out. If he's so cruel and evil why would he suffer and die just so we wouldn't have to? He literally went to hell and came back.

All you need to do is believe on him. That doesn't sound like a cruel dictator to me.

And again I ask you to read a bible instead of dismissing it without investigating.

>>19446333
Why did he need to kill himself, he couldve just absolved all sins wuth the wave of his hand. The crucifixtion was a way to guilt us into being complient. Hes evil for sending anyone to hell for anything short of rape or murder, and even then they dont deserve to burn for all eternity

>>19446345
because there had to be a template to allow salvation. you clearly dont understand the gospel. bible more

>>19446359
If hes god and could do anything then he couldve just said "nothings a sin" and saved us all. Your bible makes no sense

>>19446292
actually if you arent saved, you would go to hell. because killing yourself is a sin

>>19446365
not the other guy. you do know that humanity is in a fallen state and everyone deserves hell. jesus came to offer a way out. because god loves you

>>19446368
>because killing yourself is a sin
Your god is a fucking monster

>>19446373
Again, he couldve just said "i forgive you all" and let everyone in heaven. The fact he doesnt shows hes an ego stroking narcissist and in fact deserves to rot in his own hell for his crimes against humanity

>>19446386
nope. because free will is a thing. and we have to choose. imagine a whole universe that bends to gods will. and we humans have the gall to look him in the face and say NO

>>19446374
suicide is the most selfish thing you could do

>>19446397
Free will gives us the right to do anything, he simply couldve said nothings a sin and wed all be saved and still have our free will. Their is no reason why god cant just save everyone without storking his cock for all the people submitting towards him and frankly i dont see why he shouldnt be hated. But then again he doesnt exsist and there are so many holes and incosistancies in your blind faith so being religious should be considerd a mental disorder

>>19446415
you do know this is a battle between spiritual kingdoms. your adversary hates you and wants you to go to hell with him when the time comes. satan introduced sin. he fucked shit up. so blame the god of this world aka satan. youre lucky to have a way out. which is jesus. thats the gospel

>>19446315
can i be your gf 2?

>>19442548
want to experience hell anon?
lock yourself in a pitch black room for 1 year with nothing but water (that means no food, tech, clothes, etc) and see how you handle it.

Even the toughest of criminals break under solitary confinement, and that has more privileges than the hell challenge i have just prescribed.

>>19446436
Give me an actual argument that isnt fear mongering

>>19446454
its all in gods hands. if he wants for you to be led to him through me then so be it. if not, its not your time yet.

>>19446368
I can think for myself. I don't need bs religion.

>>19446442
Come here anon, kiss me

>>19442927
>Lucifer
His name is not lucifer, isiah was referring to a city when he wrote, not satan.
Satan is the obstacle, he has been a snake, a dragon, etc. I think satan is more of a universal force of temptation that resides within every man (the devil is in us all so to speak).

>>19446473
atheism is a sad state of existence

>>19443050
this

>>19446479
Astronomy made me happier than any religion did.

>>19443214
Pop-mmodern idea of satan is derived from a fools reading of paradise lost as well.
Read up on Chrisstological lore, and most of the newer phenomena are from complete misunderstandings of poetic literature and fan-fic (yes dante's devine comedy is a fan-fic)

>>19446492
lol i bet you love flat earthers. because space dont real

>>19443788
>they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.
is the cup of his wrath literal?
Does God drink alcohol?

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>>19446504
NASA is under pressure to suppress any evidence of aliens but you can trust their research/findings.

>>19444575
>The wrongs i have done
>I am burning, there is no escape
>The torential downpour of his wrath burns like brimstone.
Am i being literal?

Remeber kids: the bible doesn't have to be literal, because it is religious literature and therefore can do what the hell it likes. Consider reading up on Jewish literature and literary genres if you want to get deeper into the actual meaning of the book (and thus become a sage).

>>19444843
The woman from what i understand is Israel.
Her Child is Jesus.

Revelations is full of poetic language and imagery; It's beautiful.

>>19444907
because that is from dante's devine comedy, not the bible.

>>19446475
*kisses sotfly* teehee

>>19442548
>So i ask you, why is hell so bad?
You already are in hell. And will be in the next life.
The deities have found out it's less expensive to just recycle souls and directly throw them into hell again.

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>>19446104
>god doesen't exist: tl;dr edition
>"this'll be rich"
>Video poster then proceecds to make a fool of themselves by presuming that the capacity for one to do evil means that one WILL do evil.
>mfw

>>19446582
I love your soft lips

>>19446468
I fucking hate determinists, christian or otherwise.

>>19446600
ooh and you're big strong man hands on my dainty hops are so strong and big *kisses agains*

>>19446616
I bet you said that to every LARPer here

>>19446650
*say

>>19445673
>>19446135
>>19445472
probably bait, but you're a fucking idiot kek

>>19446656
>>19446650
>>19446616
>>19446600
Please take that RP to the >>>/trash/

>>19446454
Ok. Do you want eternal life? Do you want to never be sick or tired again? To always say and do the right thing and never screw up? Do you want access to the Creator of all things, to be able to ask him any question and get pure unadulterated truth?

Do you want to never suffer again?

Do you want your own mansion and vineyard in a perfect earth with a perfect climate, never be cold or too hot again?

All these things and so much more beyond description, beyond what you can imagine lie in wait for you. There is nothing you have to lose.

>>19446690
If you take all the RPing out of /x/ this board would be as death as /biz/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHAsBOQ06fw

>>19446717
Conflict is what makes humanity human, nor robots created by God, in my opinion. God created human beings with the express purpose of creating something in His image that wasn't a slave to His will. As a result, we were granted the ability to choose, and with that comes occasionally making the wrong choices.

As much as bad decisions hurt, they drive us to reflect, and to seek a new path. Were everything granted to us freely, we would quickly stagnate under the weight of boredom.

I believe that our purpose on this earth is to struggle, to fight and to live, and in that struggle, to flourish with the growth of good decisions in spite of the bad. Therefore, to have all my questions answered, to have every whim attended to without a need in the world, seems truly horrifying.

>>19447053
That's because you look at the world through the only lens you know, a finite world.

You can't comprehend a world that's infinite, you sound like you fear that you would stop wondering and growing but the truth is the next life will have no cieling like this one

>>19443775
aaand /thread

while not exactly hell, you're on the way to a deeper torment when hell is over.

>>19444907
>>19446503
>>19446562

Medieval people believed that Dante was a Rosicrucian and it was likely posited that his journey to Hell literally happened. Dante does infer throughout the epic that it really happened and it isn't just a fancy. Of course this is highly unlikely, but at least there's a stronger tradition in Dante's Hell than in Milton's. I love Milton, but it also annoys me knowing that almost every common Christian misconception about the Bible is his fault.

>>19445916
retarded piece of shit

>>19446689
Or his life is already hellish

>>19445668
Seems like you'd just drive yourself insane pretty quickly and retreat into your mind.

>>19445673
Sure you were, buddy. Sure you were.

>>19447342
Nice counter-argument.

>>19446113
He wore mismatching socks, which is punishable by death under the rules the judge dictated to some hobo.

>>19448799
Well did he know that?

>>19445673
This fucking board kills me sometimes.

>>19446198
I've never hurt anyone to any meaningful degree and I'd gladly take a bullet to protect most people, even a complete stranger, but because I don't believe in your particular interpretation of God due to a lack of compelling evidence, ("MUH HOLY BOOK!" and "I TOTES DIED AND WENT TO HEAVEN YOU GUIZE, 4 REALSIES!" do not constitute evidence) I am 100% deserving of literally the worst punishment imaginable literally forever with no chance of escape or parole. Can you see why I don't hold Yahweh in particularly high regard? Why, if I believed he actually existed, I'd consider him a maniacal tyrant to be opposed?

>>19442548
because God is smartest begin in the world
now imagine a world in which you are surrounded by morons
that can't end well for people in this world..

now when i think about this isn't Earth hell ?..

>>19446359
Omnipotent. If he can will a universe into existence with minimal effort, he can go "Original sin? Ain't a problem. Don't even trip, dawg" with even less. It's ridiculous to say he has the power to do literally anything in the same breath as "but he had te sacrifice himself to himself to create a loophole in the rules he himself created."

>>19446401
>What's that? You were dying of a terminal illness that would have been a slow, agonizing decline with absolutely 0 chance of recovery and decided you'd rather just speed things along and spare your loved ones the sight of the anguished shell of a man you'd eventually become? How fucking selfish of you! To the hellfire with you!

>>19448818
Some stoned and drunk homeless guy raved about it at him while he was walking home from work, but he took it as the crazed ramblings of a lunatic.

>>19448865
Well then he did know, and it's his fault.
Checkmate, atheist.

>>19448847
This is my main gripe with Christianity. If God is omnipotent AND all-loving, why does he even bother with the sin thing? I mean, it's no skin off his back to either make sin impossible or not give a shit about it, right?

>>19442548
Good is the source of all knowledge, pleasure, and good. Without these things you live in a hell.

>>19449122
making an impossible would infringe on mankinds free will
he already had angels to be obedient and sinless

god made us super special in that we get the power to fuck up our own lives and the lives of others because he doesn't interfere with our right to choose

>>19442548
I've always viewed hell as a more state of mind
Like you can be living and be in hell just not constant hell

So for me a few months back a girl of mine left cause she thought I was using her for sex (I wasn't) apparently she felt extremely hurt and I put her in therapy

For me hurting someone I love is so much worse than anything else I can imagine so that feeling id describe as hell

Heaven in my eyes is also a feeling, like when you laugh with someone you love and you don't have a worry in the world, like that feeling all the time

>>19442548
>implying the concept of heaven and hell isn't dumb fuck talk

kek

>>19443231
Druggies are so fucking stupid and they're convinced they're not.

>>19449381
You can't have an all-knowing god and free will at the same time, sorry. If every choice you'll ever make and thought you'll ever have is already known, you're just acting off a script, whether you're aware of it or not. That makes punishing someone for their predestined choices even worse than just you making a bad choice of your own free will.

>>19443235
What kind of logic is that

>>19448784
Stay
>>19448822
Scared

>>19445100
The guy that made that post is probably a Christian. Op is probably an edgefag fedora

>>19449934
If you 're watch a football game and record it, then watch it later with friends, you now have knowledge of what's going to happen in that game. Does that mean you had control over it? Or that your knowledge of it proves those players did not have free will in that game?

>>19445916
"man I just killed this guy but that judge is the real murderer here not me"

>>19446215
I'm glad? How is this a bad thing?

>>19446287
>this is what atheists actually believe

>>19446345
>why did the judge have to convict the murderer he could have just let him go

>>19442548
What if hell is a place of eternal torrent?

>>19446368
What if a person doesnt tie their shoes. Trips and hits head and dies. That person indirectly caused their own death. IE suicide.

>>19446415
>God
>he
>implying the divine has a gender

>>19446475
Can i have some too?

up

>>19451564
God is not trying to kike you. We all understand to follow the spirit of the law, not necessarily the letter.

>>19444907
The Divine Comedy is a fanfic

>>19445893
In Buddhism there are a bunch of different hells you can reincarnation into as entities in a state of unimaginable suffering through really long lifes that you can reincarnate into until your karma is more balanced, which usually takes a few cycles in that particular hell.

>>19446436
Satan gave us the blues and Jesus gave us christian rock so I'm gonna kick it with Satan and Robert Johnson in a place that's not much hotter than the kitchen I work in.

>>19449401
>not a druggie
>got brainwashed by D.A.R.E. in elementary school
>thinks alcohol isn't a drug
>probably likes Jeff Sessions

>>19442548
Guys, the Bible was written by 2000 year old Middle Eastern people! You're going to take it as fact?

It says it's where God punishes the wicked. But I'm not wicked, I just don't believe in him. What will happen to me? I don't know what to believe in there's too much to choose from and it all seems fake.

>>19453767
You automatically count as wicked because some bitch ate an apple several thousand years ago, and that's somehow our fault.

>>19445673
I come to X because I like spooky stuff, I don't believe in god or hell or ghosts etc... But I love that kinda spooky supernatural shit. People like you make me remember why I stopped coming

>Bro ive totally been to hell, its worse than any human can possibly imagine

No way how did you get there?!

>I took drugs and imagined it

Fuck you

>>19446436
>God is omnipotent
>God can see everything, God can do anything, he has infinite power
>One of his creations fucked up his shit somehow
>Cant just isntanly sort it out
>Demands we all follow weird and specific rules while giving us the option to disobey
>Loves us all unconditionally with conditions
>Even though he loves us all SO much more than any human can understand, he will torture us forever if we break a random rule he made up

I wouldn't send someone I hated to hell for eternal torture, yet god sends the children he loves, by being an absent father with 0 proof of his existence and then dropping 2000 year old random rules and expecting people to follow them