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how many of you have actually had true experiences?

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years ago when i first started coming here this place was filled with wonderful and deep discussions about true paranormal activity that people have experienced, now it seems that role-playing and people with mental illnesses take up most of this board.

i myself have experienced extremely horrifying experiences throughout my life and i was not alone for some of them. i have sought out other people who are analytical and somewhat skeptical about these things so that even with reason and deduction there are still no sure answers as to why these things happen.

i never take anything for face value and if someone claims to be unique or see things i call them out on it. if they see ghosts then i ask for proof. i might open up about my past but for now i'll include a recent event that left my family at odds for the first year we were at our new house.

back in 2015 we moved into a house built in 1797 and for the most part it was very nice and calm. then october came along and we started hearing footsteps run up and down the stairs and doors opening or someone in our cellar. the night before halloween we decided to carve our pumpkins and place them on our stoop in front of the house. as me and my mother went outside we both heard what sounded like footsteps right outside in the front yard. we went in and i was grabbing my flashlight when she called me outside to show me something. as she took the picture a figure appeared in front of my bedroom window where we heard footsteps. she ran into the house and i spent the next two weeks trying to figure out what it was. around this time is when the activity stopped. i still have that picture and if anyone knows how to analyze pictures please feel free to try. this thread is for people who had had legit experiences that cannot be resolved with logic and reason. please feel free to discus your experiences without judgement.
>>
>>19226815
My mom is an actual medium (Or she thinks she is, in case you don't believe that shit). Kardecist spiritism and all.

There are some stories if you want me to share them, but honestly, the vast majority of experiences is pretty mundane - she occasionally sees or hears shit, and when she used to go to the Spirit Centers (Or whatever they're called in your country), she could incorporate them so they could speak with the spirit and try to help it out.
>>
>>19226831
if i may ask, has she successfully ever made a breakthrough with someone without it being considered a cold reading?
>>
>>19226840
There is no reading - she didn't incorporate for other people. The Center existed to help the spirits, not the living. The reunons were only for the mediums.

It was not a place to go receive a letter from dead grandpa, but the place someone who died in an accident went so they could help him understand what happened and go to the other side in peace.

There was no one being tricked. Unless they were all delusional, of course - I never went to any of those reunions, only have her accounts, and what she said other people said about the events.
>>
>>19226815

>not this thread again
>>
>>19226852
i see. well. i hope that in some way she did help people cross over to whatever it is beyond this.
>>
>>19226856
this is my first time starting a thread like this. i apologize if i made a duplicate.
>>
>>19226864
Yeah, she helped some. But it was very mentally and physically taxing for her and she eventually stopped.

Still, she "opened the table" of the center, so to speak - the center existed for 25 years before her, and no medium there ever incorporated. When she went, it happened, and a week later, another one also did. My mom quitted, but the second one is still helping out there to this day.
>>
>sitting down on stairs playing with crayons
>bathroom door is open so i have a clear view of bathtub
>suddenly shower curtain moves back like someone dragged it
>run downstairs

scariest moment of my life
>>
>>19226876
has she ever tried to see if you might have the touch at all?
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>>19226882
Apparently it's not hereditary - I've heard that either it's something decided on the other side, or that everyone has mediunic potential, it's just a matter of awakening. I should ask her about it, actually. I did hear one once when I was a child though (The spirit appeared later in the center and said he was in that house), but children in general are more perceptive.

But anyways, I'd be scared shitless if I ever saw one, so I think that fear blocks them from contacting me lol. And maybe it's better this way - I'm a scientist and, for now, I have enough shit to sort on this side.
>>
I believe I was once touched on my leg by something. Idk what it was, ghost, guardian angel, wherever you wanna guess.
>lying on my bed
>hear a voice say 'hi'
>one small area of my thigh went really warm like someone had put a hot water bottle on it.

I was weirded out but it didn't feel malicious or anything. More like it was trying to comfort me

That was it.
Only time something like that had ever happened
>>
>>19226897
good luck with your research. i hope you make a mark on history.
>>
>>19226904
So do I brother.

Anyways, I'll be lurking the thread. I like paranormal shit even if I don't believe it (And I'm looking to write some horror stuff in the near-future, this place can give me some nice ideas)
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>>19226903
could you have been sleeping ?
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>>19226912
Nah I was wide awake. It was like 6pm and I think I was just on my phone on my bed relaxing
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>>19226903
Nine times out of ten, things that will approach you are benevolent.
>>
>>19226936
Yeah I like to think it was something looking out for me. I've been in a few quite life threatening situations and haven't died yet. Wishful thinking eh?
>>
About a year ago, I was walking with a friend of mine at about 8 pm, something we normally did. While we were talking, she just stops and asks me if I "see that." About 50 ft away was this skinny, black, very tall thing that looked like a pole. It did not have a face, arms, or legs or anything at all. For some reason, it looked really out of place, like it wasn't real. After looking at it for a split second, it started to quickly glide away from us. After it seemingly went through a fence, my friend and I booked it as fast as we could back to her house. I have a few details I left out if anyone is interested.
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>>19227405
Get to typing ponyboy
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>>19226815
Every story I've told here has been 100% zero bullshit not even embellishing the slightest bit.
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>>19226815
I encountered the Hat Man when I was a kid, bakck in the mid '70s. I kept it to myself pretty much, had a different name for him, but when visiting here years ago I saw someone's story about the Hat Man, with a drawing/picture, and I was blown away. It was independent confirmation that my suspicions that this being was in fact real were true as I'd never described him in detail to anybody.

I've seen ghosts some times tooo but that pales in comparison.
>>
Sometimes, when I'm feeling down or stressed at work usually, I get the smell of my dead grandad. I can smell him right now. We weren't incredibly close but I did cry like a baby when he died last winter. Anyone have an explanation for this? A logical one?
>>
I dunno why, but things like me. Or hate me. Not really sure. But if I go to someone's house with paranormal stuff, it always ramps up when I'm there. The weirdest one was something impersonating a spirit I guess? that I guess I get along with.
I'd bring my computer over, and the thing would fuck with the mouse when I was trying to sleep. I think it wanted to see my different desktop backgrounds. Anyways, something was fucking with my mouse one night. It seemed off though. And there was a clicking sound, like it was trying to use my mouse. I opened my eyes and was going to politely ask it to fuck off. And there was this rotten looking goblin fucker thing leaned over the back of the couch, face inches from mine and it's gangly-ass arm over my body with it's hand on my mouse. Now either I have delusions and I'm real good at keeping them in check, or I'm desensitized to this kinda shit. So after making eye contact I just shut my eyes and thought it'd either kill me or not. And I was gonna go out how I lived. As a lazy fucker on a couch. I didn't die (I think) but it was the most direct thing I've ever had happen.
>>
I was taken by "grays" a few months back.

I was paralyzed after waking up to a noise and then pulled through my bedroom roof into the night sky.

Can't really remember much else; red/brown room and tall grays, all as it happened in a second.

I've had strange pains and aches since in my back and legs.

I haven't bothered with letting it known elsewhere or anything. I can't prove it to anyone, so no point.

I live on 70 acres in the middle of the woods, by myself and no dog. I'm an electrician.
>>
>>19228468
>pulled through my bedroom roof
How? Was the roof destroyed or what?
>>
>>19228479

Just passed through it like it wasn't there by 2 grey colored "beams".

I remember lying down on a table in a rusty colored room and tall grays walking around, and then I was back in bed.

Felt like it happened in a second.

Could have been a weird dream experience, but I felt awake and I remember it all clearly (the things I remember), which never happens with dreams to me.
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>>19226815

Well...

>> Start practices to bring my consciousness into viewing my own soul, warts and all.
>> Decide upon technique of sitting for bouts of meditation before my black scrying mirror.
>> Initially nothing.
>> About two months in of daily sessions, I finally begin to perceive the sense of an approaching presence getting closer with each session.
>> A year of frustrations later, with a sense of about to have a breakthrough of some type, and then nothing as if I am starting at square one again.
>> Last session, nothing. Felt brief sensation of self being 'opened' to something, but at time think it was just in my head. Open eyes, see me, but with black ink well eyes in the black mirror reflection. See fingers rippling across mirrors surface from the 'other side' to mine, like they are going through mercury. Finger tips have talon like nails.
>> Never sit again, give up practice.
>>
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When I was seven, I was dying of a blood disease. I would easily bleed and bruise, and occasionally my skin would just start bleeding like i was struck with pins. It's a medical thing and actually acknowledged and real.

What isn't acknowledged is that, one night, it just flat stopped. Overnight. In fact, I woke up and suddenly had absurdly thick skin. I have barely gotten a bruise since, and it's even turned dog bites and knives at times. By rights, this is impossible. The disease I suffered from doesn't just vanish. My twin sister even still suffered it. But it did vanish, and in me alone.

Shortly thereafter, I started getting horrific nightmares. Nightmares of blood and rituals. Dreams of concepts and things like energy manipulation and force of will.

Many of those rituals ended up being actual rituals I've been able to find later completely independent of me.

You can think whatever you want. But having experienced all that...? I'm obviously a believer.
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>>19228093
Lived in a house in southern California. Whole neighborhood was haunted by angry things. There was one we called the tall man top hat I wonder if they're the same thing. Also neighborhoods were build over mass cemetery from the tb/psych ward that used to be there
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>>19226815

>be 11 year old boy in South Florida
>live in house with mom
>a huge vase is in the center of the dining room table
>mom leaves to get groceries, about 7 PM
>just playing vidya when suddenly
>HUGE FUCKING CRASH
>run into dining room
>vase is smashed on the floor about 5 feet away from the table
>run a billion mental processes
>that vase was perfectly stable and centered on the table, not precariously close to any ledge
>vase is way too heavy for air conditioning to blow it off with a gust or something
>either a fucking ghost did it or someone is in the house with me
>grab kitchen knife, bolt for front door, wander the sidewalk outside my house waiting for mom to return
>she is obviously perturbed at the sight of her son with a knife walking the neighborhood
>explain to her what happened
>initial thoughts that I was faking evaporated b/c of how sincerely spooked I was
>we check the house and no one is there
>just the fragments of broken vase on the floor

I am a skeptic about most but to this day I cannot come up with a rational explanation for what happened. I legitimately think it was just a prick ghost who wanted to see a little boy brown his shorts.
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>>19226815
This is an old post I made a while back but it's relevant.

Last year we had a situation over at the fire department/community center that made local newspaper (Mainly because it was around Halloween and they just wanted something to throw in there). My friend (We'll call him Dave) was on duty with his manager and another co-worker named Christian. It was around 10 o'clock at night and most of the kids playing basketball were heading on home. At around this time Dave would have to check all the locker rooms and basketball courts to make sure nobody was in there before locking up. Christian decided to come along because he had nothing else better to do.

In order to reach the basketball court complex you had to cut through the fire department garage. In there were two firetrucks and along the walls you had firefighter jackets hanging loaded with equipment. These jackets on average weigh around 50lb, equipped with breather masks, oxygen tanks, and special harnesses for various tools. After Dave and Christian cut through the garage, checked all the locker rooms, did the garbage, and closed up the courts, they went to go
head back to the managers office to clock out for the night.

At this point things started to get weird.
>>
When they came back to the garage they noticed that all the jackets had been moved to the other side of the room. Dave and Christian were surprised by this as they were just in there five minutes ago, they didn't really do the garbage
since most of the trash bags barely had any trash in them, so it was just a matter of checking to see if the basketball courts were empty. What REALLY surprised them was that, again, there were about twenty of these 50lb jackets and in order to move them to the
opposite side of the garage you needed to squeeze them between the garage door and the firetruck that was in the way.

There were only three people on shift, Dave, Christian, and the Manager (who definitely could not have moved them in under five minutes).
Keep in mind, we have other fire department buildings around town, so nobody was on duty at this particular building. Dave and Christian decided to dismiss this and proceeded to head back.

The thing you need to know about the managers office was that you had to reach a flight of stairs and go through this narrow hallway that had additional bathrooms and child aftercare rooms.
When Dave and Christian began to reach the flight of stairs, they noticed that the corridor leading up to the 2nd floor had gone awfully cold. Again, they dismissed this, as it was late October and the windows were open all day.

But when they reached the 2nd floor to the managers office, Christian's face went pale.
>>
>>19228552
what kind of rituals
>>
At the end of the hallway, Christian claimed he saw a black silhouette of a head and an upper torso go right through the Janitor closet door.
Christian asked Dave if he saw what he saw, and Dave thought he was full of bull, so he went to go open the door only to find nobody inside.
Then they began to hear footsteps only just feet away, and at that point they just wanted to get out of the building.
They went back down the flight of stairs to the garage and what was before them made their blood run cold.

All the jackets were back on the opposite side of the garage.

They both bolted out of there without clocking out for the night.
>>
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The only experience that I can remember that does not involve me fucking with occult or some other magick shit is this.

I live in a suburban area and my brother and I walked to a McDonalds because we didnt have a car we can use. It was during night. As we are walking back we see a black figure fly across us into a forest. I just assume it was a bird but it was just too tall and it was like a shadow. The only reason why I remember this is because my brother noticed it too and we went another way home. It was just weird but other than that I experienced knocking at my home and whispers when I was way younger.
>>
>>19226815
>this place was filled with wonderful and deep discussions about true paranormal activity that people have experienced, now it seems that role-playing and people with mental illnesses take up most of this board

See, this is where you are wrong.
You have just grown up and started to understand.

Nothing paranormal or supernatural exists, ghosts and monsters are all bullshit.

If it ever existed, why is there EXACTLY zero proof across all of the internet?
And more than that, why in my 22 years of life have I not been encountered once by one of these special entities?

Because it's all bullshit, and this thread is to contain mental ill people.
>>
>>19226831
she does drink alocohl or does drugs, right?.....;-)
>>
>>19226815
When I was four years old I told my parents I was a reincarnated officer who died in the civil war. They humored me and asked who I was. I told them I was buried in a cemetery with magnolias just outside of town. My dad, who was a military man, got fed up and told me to stop fibbing. I told him I wasn't and started reciting the dates and inscription. It scared the fuck out of both my parents because my dates were accurate. So they got in the car and drove to the cemetery, which was actually called Magnolia cemetery. I led them inside to a grave in the corner near an old rotted tree. Apparently it had the exact inscription and words on the headstone. My dad told me he felt sick suddenly and had to sit down, and that my mom was crying and I told her it was okay, that it didn't hurt when I died. Part that creeps me out the most is, we were on vacation in Charleston South Carolina. I'd never been there before, and there was no way I would've heard about Magnolia cemetery, let alone known the inscription and dates. I also was just learning to read.

Eventually want to go back with my mom. She says she knows exactly where the grave is, that it's the only time she's ever seen my dad so shaken.
>>
>>19228965
That's breddy cool, especially
>it was okay, that it didn't hurt when I died
Thanks for sharing.
>>
>>19228851
Basic stuff, honestly. The Star Ruby/LBRP, its opposite, and some Vodun rituals.
>>
Seen a shadow person. My only 100% true seen-with-my-own-eyes paranormal experience.
>>
>>19229007
Yeah it creeped me out when they told me. I'm prone to call bullshit but my dad was the quiet military type and never lied or exaggerated about anything.
>>
>>19228965
That's amazing. I believe in past lives because I remember mine. I was a girl. I met someone. He was my soulmate. We met with God in this life and met when I was 9. He was reincarnated as a girl and I had to become a boy to be with her.

Later in life, I started to hear voices and it was her. We talked and made plans to meet. She gave me directions to get to a drive-in theater that I've never heard of. She said there would be a giant dinosaur statue out front and I saw it. I went inside to the men's restroom and she followed me in with her sister. She told her sister I was hideous and didn't want to be with me anymore. Months passed, and my cat told me this girl had sex with my brother. I had a mental breakdown and I think about killing myself every minute of every day because of her. The end!
>>
My super cynic dad said he saw the Grim Reaper. He died unexpectedly a few months later.
>>
I'm suspicious that there is a spirit in my house that occasionally brings me lost items I am looking for.
>laying in bed
>about to go to sleep
>pull out headphones for ASMR
>one of the fucking earbuds is missing
>turn on phone light and look everywhere around my bed
>look on the floor directly next to my bed, do a thorough scan of the floor
>not there
>TV turns on by itself
>look at TV and then look back at floor
>the earbud is sitting there in plain sight
>"t-thank you" I say out loud before going to sleep
Something was really weird about that night but its clearly not a malevolent spirit
>>
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>>19226815
I have had several paranormal experiences in my life. Could give a shit less if people believe my stories or not. The most notable one to date occurred when I was about 13.

I was walking down my hallway to go get my dad who was in his bedroom. At the end of the hallway you could turn left or right. My dads room was on the right, my brothers room was on the left. When I reached the end of the hall before I turned right I looked over into my brothers room and this huge black figure with six horns and glowing red eyes was standing in my brothers room. It began to charge right at me. My adrenaline kicked in and I ran to the living room to find my mom. When I got to her I was crying and hysterical. Whatever it was (demon, moth man, etc) it was the scariest thing I have ever seen in my life.

Also at night when I could see into my parents bedroom there was a mirror that would often have 2-3 sets of red eyes in it when the room was almost pitch black. The eyes would blink periodically. For some reason this never frightened me all that much. I could stare at them for awhile. I feel certain that whatever they were they were related to the first thing. That house was haunted af.
>>
Bit of a rogue one here.
But...
My mum swears, like she's adamant, that she saw a sausage cross the road when she was younger.

Not even joking
>>
>be 15 at the time
>showering
>shower window is solid 9 feet off the ground
>hear clap near window
>brainaneurysm.html
>dumb faggot me claps back
>receive two claps this time
>getting spooked
>move left a little
>move back, almost falling
>hear sound outside, music maybe???
>scared shitless
>jump in fear
>hear something stomp around, dont know what it is
>decide to stomp back
>hear "cha cha real smooth"
>>
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>>19231278
>>
I'll greentext my most paranormal experience.

>Bible study
>discussing shit like demons and paranormal stuff within Christianity
>drive home, get to apartment
>lot at my building is full, so park next door
>still thinking about demons
>get out, see what I can only describe as a hellhound
>it is like a silhouette... except it's yellow eyes
>it growls but sounds more like a gorilla than a dog if that makes sense
>it has to be four feet tall, but standing on four legs. Massive creature.
>We stare each other down, neither moving. I'm terrified.
>I pray and say "Lord, protect me" and the creature steps back and screams
>it's like a person screaming - male - and it sounds like "NO"
>I literally say "in the name of Jesus, you get the fuck out of here. You have been ordered"
>I swear, it's like this fucked was shot. FLEW backwards, then scampered and stumbled up and disappeared into the bushes

That happened in March. Super spooky, but just a reminder that there are things bigger than us. If the light within us shines, though, we win.

Let your light shine bright.
>>
>>19231502
Those two last lines were the best thing I've seen in a while Anon
>>
>>19231502
Hahah! That's some nice Christian fan fiction!
>>
>>19231838
Don't you think an anon would have made up something more dramatic than "dark dog the size of a child that sounded like a gorilla?"

This whole board is full of things above ("para") the norm but just because a mainstream religion is attached to a story, it invalidates it?
>>
>>19231278
>decide to stomp back
>hear "cha cha real smooth"

i fukken lost it, holy shit.
>>
>>19228900
>22 years old

>"If I haven't experienced it, how could it be real?"

Regardless of whether or not your first point is valid, the second reason you give is fucking retarded and something only children who think 20 years is a long time would say.
>>
>>19228672
Could be the same. He was tall. I saw him like the pictures people draw show, tall, cloaked/long coat outline and standing in a doorway with a wide brimmmed Hat. I think the doorway is very important but the Hat more so. I like the name you gave him. Thanks. When was this?

I'd be interested in hearing the names others had for him.
>>
>>19228900
>Look, ma, I'm 22 years old and I know everything
>>
>>19230959
Very nice.

>>19231026
Scary as shit. Those eyes... the first amityville movie scared the shit out of me when I was a kid for those damn red eyes.

>>19231211
That could be the ultra terrestrials as john keel called them getting their transmission frequencies mixed up.

>>19231838
The fact that he's Christian is irrelevant imo.
>>
>>19230433
this
the only logical scientific explanation is that it was something stuck inbetween dimensions because that's how it looked/felt
>>
I picked this bitch up in 1993. I was convinced I had hallucinated it for years. Had never heard the story from anyone around here before or since. But after I got the internet I got curious and did some searching and was floored that other people had experienced the same thing. https://books.google.com/books?id=uVrYAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=princeton+rd+hitchhiker+ghost&source=bl&ots=m-REY8ALQ-&sig=-SevZVhG8JF0rdUK4DJ914Td01g&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiA8qOanOrUAhWHzIMKHTNtCaIQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=princeton%20rd%20hitchhiker%20ghost&f=false
>>
>>19231278
>kek.. low key best post in thread

For the uninitiated:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voUOGwWlA7g

>now turn to the left...
>>
>>19232479
What struck me about the shadow person was the fact that it was solid for at least 30 seconds. There was really something there blocking what little light there was in the hallway, then it just faded out slowly like in a movie. Like Back to the future when marty became transparent. Exactly like that.
>>
>>19230687
>and my cat told me
Pretty sure you already had that mental break.
>>
>>19228492
Go visit a hypnotherapist. They're able to recover things erased from your memory. Read up on the precedents.
>>
Lets give my story a go. As a disclaimer, I've been an atheist all my life and firm skeptic while growing up in a christian family. Mainly into buddhism as a philosophy, so tried meditating from time to time.

>About 3 months ago started meditating constantly
>Enter trance one night
>Go to this white, limbo place. Looks empty, but doesn't sound or feel empty.
>Feel lots of energy around me, vibrations and entities that the eyes couldn't see
>Stand and try to move around, freak out and snapped out of trance
>Sitting in lotus position again
wellthatwasweird.

Fast forward a week later.

>Be studying at around 4am
>Am disturbed by some entity, dark one, emotion filled with fear
>Entity fills my room, then me, making me feel weak, sick, powerless and scared
>Try to meditate or focus. Cant
>Crawl out of the room, grab a rosary, start praying
>45 minutes go by
>Suddenly the white, "love/compassion" energy from the trance manifests itself in my chest as an outward-expanding wave of light that disintegrates the dark entity.

After that

>Keep on meditating
>Still going to trance, have learned to interact with entities
>Can now understand most animals and vegetation
>Averse to eating meat (huge wtf here)
>Learn things "instantly" after going to trance >Interact "telepathically" with entities that teach me the truths of harmony, compassion and the power of love.

Still on the journey of discovery. It's the greatest story in life.
>>
My story is totally different...
2 years ago I received something, let's call a "touch". Since that day, I'm able to influence other lives... I don't wanted it, but I get. I do it for free. Tell me your problems, ONCE SOLVED, you'll make to me free offer (only if you want). I'll not take over health issues because only medicine can save you in this field. If you want to write me... [email protected]
>>
>>19226815
My teacher is a druid.

Other that... nothing.
>>
Something happened to me last Thursday when I was driving home. I had a couple of miles to go - I looked up and saw a glowing orange object in the sky, to the east! It was moving very irregularly... suddenly there was intense light all around me - and when I came to, I was home. What do you think happened to me?
>>
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I work night/morning shift at a little gas station in the middle of fuck no where.

One night at like 2am I was counting change and dropped a quarter, it hit the plastic bag rack below me and rolled across the floor until I heard it hit the wood where the back counter and the floor meet.

I keep counting so I don't lose my place and just as I finish I hear the sound of change dropping onto the counter and turn around to see the quarter laying on the counter by my phone.
>>
>>19226815
I've seen enough to know that Charles Forte was right.
>>
>be me
>working in a lab
>late one night
>eyes beheld an eerie sight
>skeleton popped out
>>
>sitting down on stairs playing with crayons
>hear a voice say 'hi'
> Initially nothing.
>pulled through my bedroom roof
>mom leaves to get groceries, about 7 PM
>turn on phone light and look everywhere around my bed
>dumb faggot me claps back
>it is like a silhouette... except it's yellow eyes
>hear "cha cha real smooth"
>"If I haven't experienced it, how could it be real?"
>Look, ma, I'm 22 years old and I know everything
>now turn to the left...
>and my cat told me
>Enter trance one night
>working in a lab
>>
>be me, about 14
>leave my room late at night
>kitchen is at the end of the hallway
>wanting a snack, can see half the fridge
>tall pure black sillhouete standing there
>turn around and just go back into my room
>this happens once every few months in the same house
>move out
>never see it again
>read about shadow people
>wtf that's similar
>>
>>19236586
We'll, that's a sight better than most Hollywood horseshit.
>>
>>19226815
>there are still no sure answers as to why these things happen
What happens on this board, as the cycles you've noted, is that practitioners experience the same unexplained phenomenon as you do, but their practice makes them feel that they have a valid, thought supernatural, explanation.

Then you bicker 'til the end of time about what caused it. Sometimes this favors practitioners, sometimes it alienates them. Me explaining this will neither change the cycle nor shift the demographics in favor of any tradition.
Thread posts: 76
Thread images: 10


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