Occultism & Magick: You Betrayed the Law edition

>>19192996
AHAHAHAHA. That is all.

Is there any cohorent meaning or symbolism behind seeing Christ hanging from a tree instead of a cross? I saw it in a vision.

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>>19193020

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>baiting the nondual

Explain why you think that is a good idea.
Serious question.

Am I right in thinking that Ebony Anpus holy guardian angel wanted him to make a utopian polyamorous commune? It seems like the kind of thing that's only possible if every one involved has an exceptionally high caliber of maturity and self control...

>>19193036
Ain't far from the Abbey in spirit.

>>19193035
It isn't a good idea...or bad idea, but beyond them both ;3

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>>19193020
Well, Odin was hanged from a tree...

>>19193048
That's true, a lot of the specific "practices" he was told to do seem to have come from the Abbey or some place similar, like the "put one person in the middle and worship them" thing

>>19193026
??

>>19193052

Can't seem to draw the connection between woden and Christ

>>19193048
>beyond them both
So magic is an act that goes beyond good and evil. Doesn't that mean it's completely useless, since the will of a man is always good or evil?

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>>19193110
>the will of a man is always good or evil?
The will of man is also beyond these cute little boxes.

>>19193110
http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/True_Will

I try not to shill but if you have the cash...you NEED to see this shit:

https://youtu.be/HAOm1bf5WRI

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>>19193128
>also beyond these cute little boxes.
Does that mean man *is* the nondual?
Is magic man baiting himself?

picrelated

>>19193092
The dying-and-living-again thing is pretty much it. Odin is far cooler though.

>>19193020
I can say you're not the only one. I saw something being mentioned about visions of the cross and plants on one of John Michael Greer's old blogs.

I have an almost total lack of ability to read the emotional state of other persons. I can only notice the more intense faces, but I can't tell if those are acting or not.
I assume ritual magic practice might help with that problem, but that aside... How reliable is a certain book called "Body Language for Dummies?"

>>19193504
>>19193092
>>19193020
>The Latin term crux classically referred to a tree
>Some Christian theologians, beginning with Paul of Tarsus writing in Galatians 3:13, have interpreted an allusion to crucifixion in Deuteronomy 21:22-23. This reference is to being hanged from a tree, and may be associated with lynching or traditional hanging. However, Rabbinic law limited capital punishment to just 4 methods of execution: stoning, burning, strangulation, and decapitation, while the passage in Deuteronomy was interpreted as an obligation to hang the corpse on a tree as a form of deterrence.
>The hypothesis that the Ancient Roman custom of crucifixion may have developed out of a primitive custom of arbori suspendere—hanging on an arbor infelix ("inauspicious tree") dedicated to the gods of the nether world—is rejected by William A. Oldfather, who shows that this form of execution (the supplicium more maiorum, punishment in accordance with the custom of our ancestors) consisted of suspending someone from a tree, not dedicated to any particular gods, and flogging him to death. Tertullian mentions a 1st-century CE case in which trees were used for crucifixion.

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Judge Jedd (seen here clutching his latest tract on jurisprudence) says:
>THIRTY YEARS IN THE INITIATION TANKS, CREEP!

>>19193632
what are you on about?

>>19193692
James Daniel Gunther aka J. Daniel Gunther aka Dan Gunther aka Jed Gunther aka Tennessee Jed.

You didn't know? He's the World Teacher and Messiah, and thankfully he's the leader of the OTO's official A.'.A.'. lineage!

He changes individual letters in Liber L vel Legis and hangs out with a suspiciously large number of ethically questionable individuals.

>>19193720
>You didn't know?
Not a Thelemite or a member of a wyzrd gang, so no. I do really enjoy hearing these stories though.

>He's the World Teacher and Messiah, and thankfully he's the leader of the OTO's official A.'.A.'. lineage!
Officially or by divine rite?

>ethically questionable individuals
Russians? Africans? Ze Germans!?!?

Quite interesting. Post more if you feel like it.

>>19193759
>Officially or by divine rite?
Because he fucking said so.

>Quite interesting. Post more if you feel like it.
Last time I posted SERIOUS info, which was a good number of years ago at this point, I got a warning for doxing.

Are Israel Regardie's books worth reading?

>>19193799
Yes.

>>19193799
Most of them are. Yes.

>>19193808
Is there a good starting point, or just dive in anywhere?

>>19193777
>Because he fucking said so.
I see. Sounds like a real take charge kind of a guy.

>Last time, I got a warning for doxing.
So it appears, this no fun policy has been in effect for some time now.

Shame, could use an interesting story about now.

>>19193811
I liked Tree of Life when I first started.

>>19193827
http://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/12796316/#12796316

http://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/14359717/#14359717

http://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/13365644/#13365644

http://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/15582867/#15582867

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>>19193827
>Shame, could use an interesting story about now.
>>19193720
>He changes individual letters in Liber L vel Legis
https://library.hrmtc.com/2013/04/16/my-life-with-the-fill-kill-kult/

how do I bring money into my life without getting a job

Oh, btw, Sabazius said the OTO recently suffered a hack.
I'm sure Hycuckulus Beta will sort it out in a shit-bang hurry just like he does every other problem.

>>19193940
Go to school and make good grades for scholarship money so you can get a fantastic job down the line.

>>19193036
sounds suuuuuper gay

>>19193967
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSirP4Pqb1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yU4GcwtyWE

>>19193720
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5je559pnY

>>19193942
A "hack" as in their computer systems? Or something metaphysical?

>>19194029
>A "hack" as in their computer systems?
^^^

>>19193942
so who's the legitimate heir to the OTO and A.'.A.'.?

>>19193020
Don't know what it could mean but it reminded me of the Cruzob
>Tired from years of struggle, the Maya regained confidence from an unlikely source: a talking cross found deep in the jungle near a cenote. Revolutionary Jose Maria Barrera, driven from his Yucatan pueblo, led his band of people to an uninhabited forest and to a small cenote called Lom Ha (Cleft Spring). There he discovered a cross that was carved into a tree. The cross bore a resemblance to the Maya tree of life, La Ceiba, and a new religion formed around it, the cult of the speaking cross, centered in the Tulum area.
>Barrera, a mestizo, said the cross transmitted a message which was later given as a sermon by Juan de la Cruz (of the Cross), a man trained to lead religious services in the absence of a Mayan priest. Barrera also used a ventriloquist, Manuel Nahuat, as the mouthpiece of the cross, and through this directed the Maya in their war effort, urging them to take up arms against the Mexican government, assuring the people of the cross they would attain victory.
>From this speaking cross a community evolved-- Chan Santa Cruz (Little Holy Cross)-- and its inhabitants came to be called Cruzob, or followers of the cross. By chance, the cross bore three elements sacred to the Maya: the Ceiba tree, the cenote, and a cave. The cross was found growing on the roots of a Ceiba, the Maya tree of life, which sprung from a cave (caves were sacred spots to the Maya), by a cenote, which the Maya believed was the place where the rain gods lived, making it easy for the Maya to accept this supernatural phenomenon.

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>>19194070
You are.

>>19194077
>It was also really not a stretch for Mayans to believe the cross spoke to them. In the Chilam Balam, an ancient Maya text, priests were described as hearing voices from the gods. So, even this aspect of mysticism fell into acceptable myth for the Maya. To the Chan Santa Cruz, the voice of God came from that cross in that tree. To the Cruzob, the cross was inspired by a shamanic ventriloquist -- the man speaking to them through the cross was God’s chattel, a mouthpiece of the gods. A shaman. The Cruzob believed this tree and this cross were connected underground, 100 kilometers from Lom Ha cenote to Xocen—the center of the world—from where the first speaking cross came.
>Four crosses are said to exist at counter points-- tips of the cross-- marking the boundaries more or less of the Cruzob Maya. The religion is still practiced in these four sacred shrine villages-- X-Cacal Guardia, Chancah Veracruz, Chumpon and Tulum--whose geographic positions roughly describe the territory of the Cruzob Maya. In 1935, the Chan Santa Cruz from these last holdout villages signed a treaty of sorts which allowed the rest of Mexico to rule them. The jungle-wise Maya had kept the Mexican government at bay for 50 years.

>>19194078
I knew it!

>>19194098
I'm sorta serious.

From the ruling in the Maine trial of Motta v. Weiser:

>>>Even if the Court assumes (the evidence suggests otherwise) that Crowley was the leader of an identifiable association of persons who sought to execute his idea, that he expressly appointed Karl Germer to succeed him as leader, and that Germer also presided over an identifiable association of persons united by Crowley's fraternal idea, the record before the Court falls far short of proving that, at the present time, or at the time of the alleged infringements, any particular group of human beings could lay exclusive claim to the O.T.O., as conceived of by Aleister Crowley when he devised his literary rights to the O.T.O. The abstract idea of an O.T.O. persists, available to be appropriated by anyone so inclined, but no single group of persons having exclusive right to use of the O.T.O. name appears from this record to exist."

>>19193837
>>19193910
That was a VERY interesting read, to say the least.

Unless there is something I have misunderstood, you have taken a very noble stand in this matter.

Has there been any reform? Have you suffered any reprisal as a result of your actions?

>>19193228
As a film student this gives me a headache. But I'm intrigued. What's it about?

>>19194119
>>19193228
Hahaha and holy shit the website is retro too.

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Bump.

>>19194107
Haha oh wow. My first order of business is to kick out every OTO member and to disband the whole org. RIP in pieces, OTO.

>>19194119
>What's it about?
The OTO.

>Has there been any reform?
Maybe?
I'm bedeviled by retards at every turn.
I rarely keep up on Order news.
Others have suffered repercussions.
I have for some related matters, but disputed them with the proper authorities and won.

>>19193837
Is this you, quoting someone? Or talking about the situation as it related to you personally?

>>19194181
Which link?

The one that starts with Wasserman's pic is all me, and it's really just the tip of the iceberg. I've seen some shit, mate.

>>19194189
>I've seen some shit, mate.
I mean, there's a reason I have the Yorke Microfilms and Ebony Anpu typescripts on tap.

>>19194200

Damn. How about the other three?

>>19194209
>How about the other three
Other three films?

I sorta doubt they're complete yet - the latest project from the Scriptorium were the Enochian scans.

>>19193837
Who was the pedo? Why is the OTO so beat?

>>19194143
>I'm bedeviled by retards at every turn.
With so many retards to contend with, is it any wonder?

>I have for some related matters, but disputed them with the proper authorities and won.
That is good to know. Who knows you may end up driving the organization in new direction one day.

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>>19194219
>Who was the pedo
TMI.

>>19194225
>Who knows you may end up driving the organization in new direction one day.
>laughingpriestesses.gif

>>19194241
>laughingpriestesses.gif
I know im just some odd guy that obsesses over cuneiform and unknown deities.

But as someone that has been floating around here for some time, allow me to just say "Do not sell yourself short".

>>19194281
TBQH he is selling OTO long by even responding, IMHO

>>19194241
>>Who was the pedo
>TMI.
>>19194219
Are we already in personal contact?

>>19194293
>Dohohoho, Wasserman removed all public trace of their contact on social media
Bottom zozzle you slimy cunt(s).

How right/wrong is this guy

>>>/lit/9673265

>>19194334
Meh.
He's obviously not an initiate or he'd recognize that ThROA/Pyramidos is a reorganization of the Z documents of the GD.

He fails to recognize the importance of the rest of the A.'.A.'. bibliography.

I dunno why you have to understand Mesmerism to understand that it's an esoteric offshoot when Liber Null/Psychonaut has a fucking chart of their spiritual heritage on page 0.

He fails to recognize the linkage between modern(ish) Luranic Kabbalah and the last of the Hekhalot literature as exemplified in the Genizah fragments.

The "Tree" as we configure it today is slightly older than he posits. The following century produced Athanasius Kircher, a German Jesuit priest, scholar and polymath. He wrote extensively on the subject in 1652, bringing further elements such as Orphism and Egyptian mythology to the mix in his work, Oedipus Aegyptiacus. It was illustrated by Kircher's own adaptation of the Tree of Life. Kircher's version of the Tree of Life is still used in Western Kabbalah.

That said, this ignores the fact that the early Hebrew mystical contemplatives still used geometric configurations for Sefira (solids, concentric circles).

>>19194284
Do you believe it is beyond redemption?

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>>19194366
Pardon, he hits Kircher but still neglects the past:

Pic related displays a circular form of the Tree derived from several verses in the Idra Rabba of the Zohar. It presents the entire group of Zoharic rabbis in relation to their respective Sefiroth. All of the Sefiroth emanate from a central, invisible Sefirah described in the text as the “Hidden Brain” of Vast Face. The names and locations of the Sefiroth on the Idra Rabba Tree are distinctly different from those commonly found in other Zoharic Tree diagrams.

Anyone have insight into Rahu worship? Was given a thai pendant featuring him

>>19194293
>Are we already in personal contact

Yup. You emailed me yesterday

what do I read to understand the elements?

I wrote a short story recently that was essentially about Fire, and recently had 3 consecutive dreams in a row that were about water in some way, and I wasn't thinking about water at all

trying to figure out what it means for me

>>19194479
Pretty much irrelevant. Don't waste your time

>>19194484
Wrong.
>>19194479
Read Platonic philosophy or "Magick Without Tears"

>>19194473
I fucking wish.

He's an eclipse entity. I'm struggling to contextualize him as/beyond his appearance in Kalachakra.

>>19194476
K, I'm gonna maybe send you a thing.

>>19194493
>93
Sounds good to me.

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>>19194493
>93

>>19194493
Useless occult academia.

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>>19194510
Was also given this. Think it's for protection but thats the extent of my knowledge. Might try a thai amulet forum

>>19194512
>>19194510
what's special about 93?

>>19194241
>tfw no sexy occultist gf
existence is pain

>>19194476
>>19194510

Sent.
Took a while to compile
.

>>19194561
Wow. I feel bad for his kid.

>>19194570
Lemme try to find some smoking guns.
Before you ask, yes I linked you to a Supreme Court case.

>>19194571
Does this involve the "Yogini"?

>>19194570
What did he mean by this?

>>19194608
Depends what you mean.
Person from the yogini incident and person I linked you is the same.
Separate but related incident, more or less. Just another piece of evidence.

He uses an image from said gathering as the profile pic for the links I sent. I'm going to send you high rez. He's in the back with the David Koresh glasses peeking over the girls.

>>19194637
>He's in the back
This man claimed to be a "Babe of the Abyss" in his lineage, around people who did not object. He was sent to us directly by Prison Ministry.

I'm inclined to believe the *in lineage* grade claim considering the publication arrangement which was halted.

>>19194637
>person I linked you is the same.
That was a different anon.

I am the one you responded to with:
>>19193837
>>19193910

But I think the point of you going to all this trouble may have gone over my head.

Because:
>Who knows you may end up driving the organization in new direction one day.
>laughingpriestesses.gif

>>19194657
>Prison Ministry
It's actually astonishing to me that anyone thought this was a good idea.

>>19194667
I know of no less than four incidents of extreme violence that have occurred under it's auspices which the Supreme and Holy King has not redressed save for shutting down Prison Ministry.

>>19194667
>>19194686
>>19194322
>>Dohohoho, Wasserman removed all public trace of their contact on social media
>Bottom zozzle you slimy cunt(s).
NO HE DIDN'T IT'S JUST NO LONGER CRAWLABLE.

>>19194476
Sending direct evidence of Wasserman's connection to this shitfuck.

>>19194790
Thanks for this. Out of curiosity aren't you initiated into the Caliphate O.T.O?

>>19194790
Don't call me a shitfuck, shitfuck ;c

>>19194805
Eeeeyuh.

>>19194814
Go die in a fire, Frater Cunalonges.

Where is the Spare and Agrippa sigil stuff in the library? I couldn't pinpoint it.

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>>19194883
So who's the geek shopped into the picture?
https://youtu.be/i9D2mvoMKLE

Wow.
Dreams do come true I guess.
I was checking in on one of the women I oneitis'd on that taught me/learned Enochian with me.

She fixed her face, moved to Tokyo, and became a legit idol. I'm glad she finally has money and feels pretty (?).

93
To Soror J:
Godspeed and Iada bless.

We've both grown so far from the forests and trailer parks.

You may have rejected it, but I know why it's us, while everyone else from town is coming of strings of convictions. I hope you either break the chain this lifetime (unlikely, frankly), or our next pass is on better terms.
93/3
Fr. P

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What books in the library would be best to start with for Shaivism? Or hinduism in general, but preferably shaivism.

>>19195042
Shiva Samhita.

>>19195037
>no feels allowed

>>19194955
J. Daniel Gunther but I'll lay off.

>>19194943
Agrippa's all over the internet. Spare's in Chaos.

>>19195055
+1 for Shiva Samhita.

>>19195008
how ugly was she, be honest

>>19195112
I'm gonna regurgitate something from eightballmagazine that never left me because it described her perfectly.

Some people have this aura of OMFG SEXY, in the way they speak, the way they move, the way they behave, that is often (though can be cultivated) absent in photos.

6/10 redhead. 8/10 with some work. She never had good self image. We did some stuff. We were both hypersexual, but nothing ever came and I went oneitis in the absence of our mutual instructor.

Last we had contact neither of our prospects were good. She was still stripping.

Must have gotten money from her most recent lez hookup and gone under the knife to push that standing six upward, from what I can tell.

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>>19195055
stealing my fives, I'm sure there's some meaning there going right over my head
>>19195008
https://youtu.be/QK57LJdg4MU

>>19195137
so she was a stripper? nice I wish I had an OMFG sexy stripper gf to be honest

>>19195042
Shiva Tattva.

>>19195055
>>19195065
>>19195169

Thank you all for quick simple answers.

>>19195169
>>19195055
>>19195042

Can't go wrong with Kaulajnananirnaya.

>>19195177
I cannot find the Shiva Tattva. The Shiva Samhita has only 43 pages and only the chapter on mudras?

>>19195177
Where can I find a good translation? The stuff you have in the mega is either not in english, or just an introduction.

>>19195274
http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/bhakti-books/english/28-siva-tattva.html?path=bhakti-books/english

>>19195274
>has only 43 pages
Or like 90, depends on your format.
It's short. You wanted intro.

>>19195280
I should have a few editions of that in the Abhinava folder in English.

https://www.amazon.com/Kaulajnananirnaya-Esoteric-Teachings-Matsyendrapada-Tradition/dp/8177421239
^This edition if you wanna buy it.

>>19195296
Thank you

>>19195299
those are the ones im talking about. the Jaideva Singh one is mostly introduction followed by the text in sanskrit. The Woodroffe one is just introduction. I guess I'll buy it, because I can't find a PDF of the complete translation anywhere.

>>19195320
Guess I should scan my annotated copy.

>>19195329
:D

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>>19195329

What's the best Shiva Sutras translation. Is the Lakshmanjoo one good or more geared towards normies? What about the Jaideva Singh one? Which would you recommend?

>>19193311
>Does that mean man *is* the nondual?

No. It means that there is duality in each of us.

The Thief and the Dragon. Gotta steal that gold, and then use it for Good. But that doesn't mean Evil isn't there.

>>19194029
>>19194034
Just a phishing attempt via e-mail.

Not a proper hack.

>>19194374
Yes.

>>19194790
>Sending direct evidence of Wasserman's connection to this shitfuck.

Might I also ask for that stuff?

It'd be a good idea to write something longer up for lvxnox.com - haven't had much time to think about magic, but it's been coming up over and over and over again the more I think about my life.

Speaking of, the Self-Authoring program is on sale right now, about $30 for an insanely useful tool.

Highly recommended.

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This is accurate Ape? What's your opinion on ole Taliesin Mcdonalds?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0cW6D3F4Ho

>>19195963
>Self-Authoring program is on sale right now,
Do you mind giving me a rundown on it's usefulness?

(morning bump)

>>19196698
>>19196197
Thanks boys.

>>19196086
I'll have to look.

>>19195963
I may have already sent it but will shoot it your direction.

>>19195407
>Jaideva Singh
Every time.

>>19196780
Nice trip.

>>19196789
No.
It's not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_U6165DVeM

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>>19192996

Where do you start in the beginner's section?

Like what's the most basic point of entry I need to begin with to build on?

>>19196802
I dunno.
If you passed high school, Magick in Theory and Practice.
If not, get your GED.

Pardon the snark but people barge in here asking how I should direct their studies when I've got zero concept of their educational background or interests.

>>19196813

I'm educated, I just wanted to know more about a good foundation.

Would like to dive into the study and practice but I'd also like to understand the concepts and meaning before I blindly perform rituals without the proper mindset.

I could just start anywhere and just read it in any order but I feel like that would dissuade me if certain terms were explained in a different book first, and I don't know them.

Like if I jsut started reading medical explanations with no knowledge of prefix and suffixes

>>19196827
It really depends on what, specifically, you are looking for. There is Gnosticism, Chaos stuff, Hermetic stuff, Qabalah, Alchemy, Satanism, Masonry, Thelema, Golden Dawn...

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>>19193020
Are you sure it was Jesus and not Saint Sebastian?

>>19196827
M:TP is gonna give you a brief overview on the trajectory of the Western initiatory temple tradition, so Golden Dawn (and though he doesn't admit it Freemasonry), and early extrapolations from the Grimoire tradition. Early Egyptian speculations....it's essentially the bridge between the older ways and modernity.

>>19194552
>sexy
Let me wear my beta hat before I talk.
Okay, now that this is out of the way, I would take with both hands a girl willing to be at least condescending with magic in the Christian hellhole where I live.
And a woman doesn't need the body of a 20 years old pornstar to be intensely desirable.

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>>19196846
>>19196838

I mean specifically out of this section

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>>19196852

>>19196852
>not inviting the girl at the local health food store to come assist you in sex magick while your old lady is working

Are we surrounded by plebs?

>>19196856
>Magick
>in
>Theory
>and
>Practice.

>>19196852
>a woman doesn't need the body of a 20 years old pornstar to be intensely desirable.
Oh, but she did.
https://youtu.be/mqYNlJ1G_Ag?list=PL5U_ew8FKOqJQZhpvZdZBenZyIDYHAgD0

>>19196856
Yes. All of those things listed are represented by one or more of the texts in the beginner's folder...which ones are you interested in? Error QDSh was referring to Magick: In Theory and Practice (M:TP)

>>19196870
Sorry, I downloaded that one the first time you recommended, wanted to clarify what I was asking before others started jumping in. Thanks, I'll start there and just go through all the rest at will.

>>19196870
GREAT.
EFFING.
ALBUM.

>>19196872
I'm going to read that but I know enough about Crowley, I don't find his work particularly appealing. Of course it has its merit, so why not read it on suggestion of someone who knows more about the subject?

After that, I guess I am more interested in Chaos as a theory than a religion. I use magic my own way right now but I could be more effective if I learned more and did daily rituals or practice, if you will. Instead of just using it on a whim.

>>19196879
>I don't post music just to eat posts.

>>19196086
I literally cannot bring myself to listen to this guy talk.

Rare tldr?

>>19196780
>I may have already sent it but will shoot it your direction.

Just found time to read it. Oh wow. Just like, wow.

They're all buddy-buddy in there.

>>19196965
As far as I know they've backed off public contact with each other on social media, hence why I thought the posts had been outright removed; they were just well hidden.

>>19196980
Yeah. Degenerates.

>>19196988
Frater Z.

Riddle me this.

If a person trained you in Enochiana and Crowleyana 'by the book' and outside of formal structures then by the time Dark Knight came out the roles were inverted so you were bringing them up to speed with your progress because they slacked off then found out they'd, in parallel with your stabilization, attainments, and growth, had become an actualized and highly motivated person executing childhood dreams internationally under a pseudonym combining somewhat obscure trad. witchcraft figures and a string of letters that implies Adepthood.

Would that imply you've produced an Adept, in spirit? Have I been past DL for a few years and just not noticed?

>>19197005
>slacked off then found out *that after years of no contact* they'd

The more analysis I'm doing on this pseudonym the more my head spins.

>>19196796
>קֹדֶשׁ
does that mean field? You jew.

>>19197020
>קֹדֶשׁ
Shin Daleth Qoph
QDS
Qadosh, both "sacred" and "cursed". "Set aside".
Gematria? 404. As in "Error 404: Page not found".

>>19197032
What made you want to make the change?

>>19197042
Long ago I mapped how I want to attain and constructed a number of Mottos.

In private Thelemic correspondence I've been using my 3=8 name. With those interested in Sabbatic Craft I've been using a name for 4=7.

New revelations have me wondering if it would be prudent to make what I promised to by my final public grade-claim.

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>>19197057
>New revelations

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>>19197005
No.

All of what you're describing presupposes that your state of being in whatsoever defined by your relationships with others. And while those relationships have a certain value, they are entirely useless, as they do not define your state of being or process of self-actualization.

Consider this: a psychotherapist's being, and what they live like, as well as their spiritual states are not affected by their patient's progress. These can, of course, contribute to their perspective and understanding, however I see no relationship between giving someone advice and self-improvement.

There are many things which I find highly disagreeable with the A.'.A.'. structure, and while I can respect the system, I find it hard to take seriously elements which rely on an unsubstantiated, metaphysical assumptions with no logical or even associative relation to the progress of an aspirant.

To put it as succinctly as possible: I don't believe structures should be considered of any value until they produce value and contribute to your life in a measurable way.

Performing ritual and getting divine visions, inspiration, and an experience of influence over one's life, while apparently useful, more than often is the blind itself.

Now, to address the actual details in the next post.

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>>19197005

>If a person trained you in Enochiana and Crowleyana 'by the book' and outside of formal structures

I fail to see how this implies anything more than having a friendly relationship.

>then by the time Dark Knight came out the roles were inverted so you were bringing them up to speed with your progress because they slacked off

That implies nothing. Some people slack off, some just do their job, others pursue magick, education, or whatever else.

>then found out they'd, in parallel with your stabilization, attainments, and growth, had become an actualized and highly motivated person executing childhood dreams internationally under a pseudonym

Anyone can do that. The concept of 'actualization' should be immediately dispensed with.

>combining somewhat obscure trad. witchcraft figures and a string of letters that implies Adepthood.

How is that even remotely relevant to you, your actions, and your thoughts?

Now I might be wrong, but it feels as if you're trying to find something that you could feel proud about - because let's face it, grades don't matter. What matters is performance.

Magick when misunderstood leads to people chasing ghosts, such as IAD, Allah, God, or any number of things.

What we need to do is focus hard on self-improvement, and on making the world a better place.

>>19197069
>No
Word.

>What we need to do is focus hard on self-improvement, and on making the world a better place.
But, y'see, goals are getting checked off the list faster than I can really grok in the moment.

I'm mostly just running down possibilities because none of us have access to the prime mover in all this mythic history, and have no mechanism of getting everyone to sit down and compare notes now that we kids have been scattered to the winds.

The more I look at people in my practicing core as a youth the more I'm seeing evidence of tangible successes.

>>19197086
>I'm mostly just running down possibilities because none of us have access to the prime mover in all this mythic history
If nothing else it'll be nice hunk of narrative meat for Black Lodge II.

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>>19197086
Tell you what. Let's get a group on Facebook, and do chats over Hangouts or Skype.

Like, let's arrange one for the time being, just like, 2-3 hours long. Let's talk about what happened. Let's talk about what worked, and what perspective changes resulted in those successes.

Like for me, the biggest change that impacted me most of all was dropping magick, and getting married. Sr. A.A. has become the prime focus for me, and this pushed me to get my shit straight, and get shit moving. And boy, it's moving.

And while I'm not the best educated person in the world, nor the smartest, I'd easily say that I've hit the equivalent of 5=6 AT LEAST. Not by focusing further on the inner, esoteric, but balancing myself out towards the outside.

And while this might come off as me bragging, I am quite convinced. Focusing on magick is a waste of time.

What gets you there is little more than paying careful attention.

>>19197110
Dropping magick and getting married...how can one be this cucked?

>>19197110
>What gets you there is little more than paying careful attention.

In my experience this has been more valuable than anything

>>19197110
>focusing on Magick is a waste of time
What exactly do you focus on? Mysticism and contemplative practices? If so, it sounds like you are of the same mind as Ananda Metteya

>>19197073
I don't usually agree with Frater K but I think he's 100 percent in the right here

You can tell me your public motto I won't attack you I promise :3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e6WpUmfg4o

this is so chill and ill. makes me want to repeat the mahamantra. just kidding, shiva is surpeme.

>>19197092
>he said, opening gimp to make more gunther memes

>>19197110
>And while I'm not the best educated person in the world, nor the smartest, I'd easily say that I've hit the equivalent of 5=6 AT LEAST. Not by focusing further on the inner, esoteric, but balancing myself out towards the outside.
This is sorta what I've been meaning. Y'all, us, we, those in my past who put in any sort of Work, are hitting spaces of non-effort that are sympomatic of the nearness of That.

I think the only difference is where you think the Work has been irrelevant, I think it's been a prime mechanism, or at LEAST the architectural framework.

To pull this back to a light psych perspective if we were all working ToS we'd be nearing or in Priesthood in terms of real-world requirements which is their equivalent of Adepthood. I dunno if he harped on you but before Satyr dropped his trip he was nagging at me w/r/t worldly successes via the example of Sr. Ghost and just a handful of years out it's all mostly or entirely resolved.

I can chat but it'd take a week to organize my thoughts enough to even start collating my old records.

>>19197110
>What gets you there is little more than paying careful attention

I agree with this but sometimes magick is totally necessary to knock some shit loose you know?

>>19197128
Have you considered that the Prime Mover is just more active now for whatever reason and to the people in contact with that space that just looks like advancement? That's sort of what I assume happens when I advance based on no clear effort of my own

>>19197073
>What we need to do is focus hard on self-improvement, and on making the world a better place.

Speak for yourself homie, your morality has nothing to do with Ape's or anyone else's Will

>>19197143
Ok you go ahead and focus hard on self-destruction and on making the world a worse place.

>>19197147
>there are only two possible outcomes of any given action
For people who are supposed to metaphysically adept y'all are pretty Small in your understanding of causality

>>19197156
kek

>>19197156
That anon who replied to you was just funposting, man...

>>19197128
Any insight on how/why Crowley seemed to go from 0=0 to 5=6 in about 2 years in the G.'.D.'.?

>>19197167
uhhh....hard work?

>>19197115

You don't know what life's about until you take the vows.

It's completely unlike magical oaths. It's completely unlike legal contracts.

It's what makes marriage the most fantastic thing one can have in one's life.

>>19197123

No. Just getting shit straight. You know. Time with the wife. Work. Entertainment. Paying attention to health. Chores. Family. Friends.

You know, live your damn life. You only get one.

>>19197128

>spaces of non-effort that are sympomatic of the nearness of That

But... everyone with any self-awareness has those spaces. It's just that you're doing the right thing at the time.

I fail to see how ritual influences say... my approach to cold-mail, or the way I write sales letters. Or the way I express myself to my wife.

If anything, it's the changes in perspective, the expansion of understanding that takes place.

>>19197130

No.

If you need to knock shit loose with magick, then you're either in a completely hopeless position, or you're not seeing your options in the first place.

>>19197143

Yeah, no. Have you read "Gulag Archipelago"?

>>19197167

Politics. And the guy was quite smart.

>>19197168
Re you not aware of the absolute clusterfuck that is progressing thru the grades in an esoteric initiatory organization?

>>19197170
Marriage *IS* a legal contract...it *should* hypothetically, be more than JUST that, but at minimum it's a legal contract

>>19197177
If it ain't more than that, it ain't marriage.

>>19197170
>It's what makes marriage the most fantastic thing one can have in one's life.
i was pulling your leg, my friend. i am deeply in love with a woman that i will marry someday. im glad you found yours.

>>19197170
>No. Just getting shit straight.
What, exactly, qualifies you as an occultist, etc. if you aren't interested in the Work any longer? Not taking a jab at you, though it almost certainly will look that way.

>>19197181
Tell that to the Federal Government and, like, the vast majority of people prior to, maybe the 19th-20th century (?)

>>19197170
>Yeah, no. Have you read "Gulag Archipelago"?
Such a good book, holy shit.

>>19197183
>What, exactly, qualifies you as an occultist, etc. if you aren't interested in the Work any longer?

At least 15 years of practice, 8 years of records, and a strong reputation for talking people out of their problems.

>>19197190
We're in the 21st. I don't give a shit.

>>19197170
>If you need to knock shit loose with magick, then you're either in a completely hopeless position, or you're not seeing your options in the first place

I suppose I don't really understand what you're saying then. If you're saying that Magick is not necessary for the process of mystical advancement I agree. If you're saying that magick is worthless in and of itself I strongly disagree. In fact I would argue that "Magick" is such a common aspect of human consciousness that many people do it every day without realizing it.
Also with all due respect, I've come to believe that "making the world a better place" is for most people just as much a ghost as any God or Daemon. I'm not saying that you're chasing ghosts necessarily but that's the vibe I get by your severe moralizing language.

>>19197214
>Also with all due respect, I've come to believe that "making the world a better place" is for most people just as much a ghost as any God or Daemon. I'm not saying that you're chasing ghosts necessarily but that's the vibe I get by your severe moralizing language.
youre welcome to ignore the authentic goals of almost all religions and spiritualities of the past few millenia and remain in selfishness, but for those that can see that this world is full of suffering, that what were experiencing is a decay of civilization in slow-motion, trying to alleviate that suffering becomes an authentic goal. being moral =/= being moralizing.

Surgo Ad achieving comical overtones. Last few threads have been cheering for the neuropsychology and now confirming the sanctity of the holy matrimony. What ever happened to Do What Thou Wilt?

>>19197226
We can do SOMETHING but we cannot stop the Kali Yuga as much as we'd like to.

>>19197229
He's doing what he wilt, is he not?

>>19197229
>Neglect not a stranger.
>Reject not an heir.

>>19197229
My father had cancer, and they had to remove a third of his colon. Doctors speculate that it is do to reading an excessive amount of Surgo ad posts in a concentrated period.

>>19197214
>If you're saying that Magick is not necessary for the process of mystical advancement I agree.

It's not necessary at all. Mystical advancement is little more than glorified philosophy. And at the end of the day, that's irrelevant and inconsequential to our everyday lives.

>If you're saying that magick is worthless in and of itself I strongly disagree. In fact I would argue that "Magick" is such a common aspect of human consciousness that many people do it every day without realizing it.

That argument has been tried with hypnosis already. It doesn't work. At least hypnotists had some 'evidence' to support that claim, even though it was pretty much obliterated.

> Also with all due respect, I've come to believe that "making the world a better place" is for most people just as much a ghost as any God or Daemon.

How is it a ghost?

>be useful
>help people
>make money
>help more people

This includes your family, friends, yourself, and at a larger scale, humanity.

Like you know, invent something amazing. Be the best at what you do. Whatever. Provide value to people, so they pay you to keep on doing that.

>I'm not saying that you're chasing ghosts necessarily but that's the vibe I get by your severe moralizing language.

I tend to be pragmatic. I don't want to spend my life trying to attain some sort of ill-defined 'goal state', only to find that I've done NOTHING to help future generations.

Shit, just knowing that I'll be able to support my mother once she's out of work, or get my brother into a job he'd like is better than spending literal months practicing yoga or doing ritual.

I mean, at the end of the day, once you're gone, you're gone. And if your priorities lie in writing occult books that MAYBE a few thousand strangers will read, be my guest.

I'd rather focus on the people who actually matter to me.

>>19197229

How are those contradictory, broham?

>>19197231
>Stopping the Kali Yuga

Even the most backwater Hindus treat the Yugas as part of the cosmic cycle and understand them as a cyclical process

You want to stop Winter? Then the Spring will never come.

Stop treating Kali Yuga as Evil. There are plenty of systems such as Thelema or even heroic ideals laid down in Evola´s "Ride The Tiger" that will consider this (chaotic) Age the most ripe and fast for spiritual practice. It is like licking off nectar from a razer blade. Dangerous, but effective.

Treat this age as a possibility and not a burden or hinderance. Even the Sutras agree that by the end of Kali-Yuga even time gets faster and man can achieve enlightenment in a single lifetime.

>>19197231
In all honesty, I do think we can. I don't see the Kali Yuga as the issue here - more like aftershocks of Marxism.

>>19197231
we do what we can, to the best of our ability; that is all that can be asked of us. to do nothing is to err.

>>19197234
I hope he converts to Catholicism.

>>19197235
Wait, is it the other way around?

Man I fucked that up:
>"Trust not a stranger: fail not of an heir."

>>19197226
>youre welcome to ignore the authentic goals of almost all religions and spiritualities of the past few millenia and remain in selfishness,

>he fell for the "White Lodge vs Black Lodge" meme
All things are United with their Opposites above the Abyss.
>but for those that can see that this world is full of suffering, that what were experiencing is a decay of civilization in slow-motion
O great enlightened one please lend me your eyes so that I can see the entropy that every being experiences though your compassionate sight.

See >>19197231

>>19197249
>Treat this age as a possibility
What possibility is there in an Age where the mystery schools have eroded to the point where needless murder to ensure succession is the norm and source documents are ignored?

>>19197283
>All things are United with their Opposites above the Abyss.

The implication that what's Above the Abyss is in any way consequential to our lives is absolutely absurd.

>>19197209
>At least 15 years of practice, 8 years of records
Oh, so you *WERE* an occultist.

>>19197231
>>19197249
There is interesting parallel for Kali Yuga in René Guénon´s "Reign of Quantity"

The speeding up, which has been apparent in the last 100-200 years. Through network communication, through aeroplanes etc.

You can get anywhere on Earth in 24 hour period, you can call anywhere etc.

By the end of the Yuga, time will get so fast, that it will achieve critical point and it collapses on itself so to speak.

This is when a new Satya Yuga begins, when Time itself is destroyed

>>19197292
Depending on definition, I still might be.

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>>19197293
>René Guénon
Sorry I don't really care what the fuck someone whose life philosophy was "Before eight or it's too late." has to say about jack or shit.

>>19197293
Two words for you, "resource depletion."
It ain't gonna happen, Anon.

>>19197284
>What possibility is there in an Age where the mystery schools have eroded to the point where needless murder to ensure succession is the norm and source documents are ignored?

If you cannot see what good there is, then I am sorry for you.

Even the Libri this thread has should be very apparent "benefit" of Kali-Yuga.

You really think anyone had access to such knowledge even 50 years ago?

Please open your Eyes. Kali-Yuga does have benefits, even though it is a degenerative process. It is like comparing the Three Gunas.

>>19197283
in the time it took for you to post this bullshit, who knows how many people died on this planet because of completely preventable reasons? how many animals and trees got destroyed by the profit machine destroying nature? some people are out there trying to make positive changes, others are shitposting on this bhutanese mandala painting forum.

>>19197302
Well you never seemed too bright of a tripfag. Guénon can be metaphysically too hard to grasp considering he was more of a mathematician in terms of literature rather than veiling his "vices in virtuous words" so to speak

>>19197314
>Guénon can be metaphysically too hard to grasp
My sides

>>19197302
I honestly hope you just did not mix up René Guyon with René Guénon. Please tell me you were joking

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>>19197314

>>19197241
>being a dogmatic materialist Thelemite

Why? What's the fun in that? You remind me of the guy I talked to when I first visited an O.T.O lodge and he went on a spiel about how the philosophy of the Book of the Law is "entirely consistent with known physical laws." Like who gives a fuck? Our scientific understanding of the universe changes constantly and our senses are lying to us at every given time. At least the hyper materialists Chaotes are honest with themselves when they explain that they're only in it for the fun.

>>19197321
No I really mean it. Most cannot even get the past the definition of "quantity" and the difference between materia prima and materia secund

You must be at least familiar with the Greek philosophers to understand the very basic premises of him.

It is more advanced train of thought than it is to masturbate on pieces of sigils drawn on toilet paper, which these threads are mostly about

>>19197324
LOL
Fuck, I didn't notice, I've been chatting about them both elsewhere and need afternoon caffeine.

>>19197329
Agree with the greentext, but...

>not understanding the relationship between Thelema and Scientific Illuminism.

>>19197331
>which these threads are mostly about
[CITATION MISSING]

Plenty of material in the archives though. Link us up, phamalam

>>19197329
Being pragmatic =/= being materialistic.

Liber AL can be thrown out entirely. Thelema is flawed as a philosophy, and as a religion.

Like, here's the thing. I literally couldn't give a shit if I'm going to be stuck in hell, reincarnated, or whatever else. But if I see my family in pain, I absolutely, existentially NEED to be able to do something about it.

If I can't, then I fail as a man and a human being.

Sure, kids die all over the world, whatever. They're not family.

And if you can't help your family, your closest people, how the hell do you expect to be able to help starving kids in india, china, or africa?

>>19197350
>Liber AL can be thrown out entirely. Thelema is flawed as a philosophy, and as a religion.
Paradoxically I agree, to an extent.
It's a convenient framework for exploring the Western tradition but by no means is the start or end of Gnosis.

>>19197337
>scientific illuminism
Is not even close to the same thing as the materialist reductionist understanding of the universe

>>19197357
>a spiel about how the philosophy of the Book of the Law is "entirely consistent with known physical laws."
>Like who gives a fuck?

>>19197354
>Thelememe

>>19197394
People have attained for eight thousand years before Crowley and will continue to do so into the next Aeon.

>>19197396
>6000 BC
>some dirty fuck in the near east is domesticating cows
>somehow uses rituals created by some guy that wont be alive for another 7900 years to Attain
Uhhh....

>OMG- what's my Grade again? Edition

>>19197398
>>somehow uses rituals created by some guy that wont be alive for another 7900 years to Attain
>implying you need his rites to attain

>>19197396
>attained for eight thousand years before Crowley
>before Crowley
>BEFORE
>CROWLEY

The aethyr didn't just shit the entire recent history of the Western systems into his brain.

>>19197350
>Sure, kids die all over the world, whatever. They're not family.
That's a very nice feelpinion.

>>19197407
>thinking Thelema is a timeless and universal system that's been used for eight millenia as opposed to the creation of a few 20th century dudes, as inspired as they may have been
You're...you're serious?

>>19197419
>>thinking Thelema is a timeless and universal system that's been used for eight millenia as opposed to the creation of a few 20th century dudes, as inspired as they may have been
Are you literate?
>>19197419
>thinking Thelema is a timeless
>>19197407
>The aethyr didn't just shit the entire recent history of the Western systems

I'll say it real slow so you understand:
>People. Have. Attained. These. States. Before. AC. Or. His. Elaborations. Without. His. Input. And. Will. Continue. To. Do. So.

>>19197419
Obviously that's NOT what he's saying. Thelema itself does not claim to be so. You're just missing the point entirely. Thelema=/= the only viable system of attainment.

>>19197409
It's the only reasonable one.

Gotta start with oneself, then expand into ones family, then friends, and then further.

Very few people reach a level of success that would allow them to actually enact beneficial plans beyond family.

Unless you're already rich, the general populace shouldn't be your concern.

>>19197435
>>19197436
Well, considering that the first thing I said implied that Thelema was a meme, and the next thing Ape said was that people have been attaining for 8k years, does that not imply that he meant that Thelema has been around for at least that long? Plus A.'.A.'. says something similar to the timeless and universal system thing.

>>19197435
>Highlighting the problem with most 'occultists', and people in general, reading too much into a statement or not reading into it enough.
Stricking a balance is an art.

>>19197445
Then you have philanthropists, who are wealthy enough to give without ever having to do so much as meet the people to whom they are being oh so generous. Surely there must be a middle ground.

Has anyone noticed that, much like scrying/exploring visions, if you invoke in some manner or another before sleeping, particularly if you are utilizing any herb/substance to aid with lucid dreaming/remembering dreams, your dreams will often take on the same nature as the invocation?

>>19197455
Well, I can't think of a person who has a lot of money and intentionally wants to waste time talking to people they'll never see again.

I was thinking more along the lines of politics/ business.

But then you have to consider: what does a philanthropist get out of charity? For the most part, it's great PR.

And to address your point, those are busy people. I'm in circles where I'm the 'lazy' one for working 30-35 hours a week, while others WILLINGLY slave away for 60-80 hours a week BECAUSE THEY WANT TO.

Entrepreneurship is full of insane, absolutely bonkers people. And I'd be one of them, if not for family. And insane migraines.

>>19197517
Crusty ass, old ass, lost your camel in the desert so now you're all dried up ass, "How do I reach these kids" ass, Live Laugh Love decorative plates ass, low grade Black Brother ass, dime a dozen ass, boring ass pictures of your kids on Facebook ass, fake Confucius ass, "Trust me Kids it's all bullshit" ass, show up to occult parties and complain about drug use ass, "that one old dude who makes feminists complaints about mansplaining seem legitimate" ass, morality is all I have left ass, even your Evil Genius is boring ass, Leashed by Choronzon ass, "flips the fuck out when your kid inevitably reminds you of the real you that was buried long ago" ass

>>19197549
rude

>>19197128
>those in my past who put in any sort of Work, are hitting spaces of non-effort that are sympomatic of the nearness of That
Don't get me wrong, maybe you are right, but this springs to mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CFuCYNx-1g

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>>19197549
See >>19197272.

Take a break and calm the hell down, lad.

>>19197110
>Focusing on magick is a waste of time.
Holmquist>Crowley?

>>19197549
Teehee. Not agreeing or disagreeing, but...teehee

>>19197549

>Choronzon.

Damn, had forgotten that name (and was content with it). Can you elaborate on that phrase? "Leashed by ...."

>>19197621
Sounds like the anon is implying failure to cross/falling into the Abyss

Poor Surgo didn't attain, and instead he chose to give up the occult in favor of the householder life.

>>19197640
Maybe that was his True Will(?)

>>19197625

I was a bit too earnest in wanting to assist someone who said they were being plagued by something they described as like a sticky black ethereal muck in them, and as I was getting more involved with 'energy work' at that time, I tried to form a connection with them and help fight whatever it was. I did the work with another person who volunteered to help, although each separately, and we both described sensing a similar entity. Forget who brought up that name, but it seemed to bring it into sharper clarity, on its own or through our belief in it and instead of helping fight off anything we both were deeply affected and had to retreat.

>>19197650
Oh? How is this relevant to my personal interpretation of the other non's implications?

>>19197640
The idea that occultism can or should be separate from a householder's life is absurd and ill-informed.

You CANNOT (it's literally impossible) attain anything of significance if you do not understand, and participate, in the life of the people you care about.

Checked the library but having troubles getting started with yoga.
Anybody have a good starting point?

>>19197673
Hatha Yoga Pradapika

>>19197678
Or Alternatively, for a more 'Western' approach, Liber ABA (Book 4), Part 1: Mysticism

>>19197681
Or you can skip the western approach to yoga altogether because it's a meme and read Hatha Yoga Pradipika or Shiva Samhita, and the like.

>>19197662

You're right in that it isn't, just throwing it out there, you seemed ready and able to explain some of this stuff. Think it's possible I interacted with Choronzon? I have not revisited anything to do with him or that experience in general since. I'm also new, so posting some choice personal anecdotes and such, even irrelevant ones, is my awkward way of trying to ingratiate myself tbqh

>>19197691
>Implying you can't attain using Crowley's methods
They're still pretty goddamn Eastern, anon. It's not like he recommends doing a bunch of asanas in a row like soccer moms. He trained in India under Sri Parananda (I believe?)

>>19197691
I guess I was right in starting there but I'm unsure as to how exactly i should read it. It's written in a very peculiar way.
I might also be a retard...

>>19197702
Having read Crowley's eight lectures on yoga, I can say that he can fuck right off. You're right though, why read primary sources from the tradition when you can read the rehashings of some British cuck who barely got it?

Has anyone noticed that "meme" seems to have come to mean "that thing I don't like"? Much like how "shill" has come to mean "that person whose opinion I don't like"?

>>19197713
Not everyone can jump right up out of the crib and start running, anon. Unfortunately, not everyone is as adept or has ascended so high so quickly as you were able to do.

>Barely got it
[CITATION MISSING]

>>19196887
I dont eat just to music posts

What's the best book for practicing astral projection? Also, if anyone has any experience I'd be glad to hear it.

>>19197725
>not everyone can read a short book and start practicing simple exercises.
hurr durr

>>19197718
Well, yeah. Welcome to the century where the meaning of words and expressions change too fucking fast.
You spend a few months out of the loop (stays offline, busy, go innawoods, whatever) and you can't keep up with things anymore.

>>19197733
Have you even *read* Hatha Yoga Pradapika? Seen the dietary and lifestyle restrictions, not recommended, but demanded, of the practitioner, *in* Hatha Yoga Pradapika? Did you follow the book to the letter from the time you picked it up to the present?

And yes, there are also some very stupid people on here, and you can't always tell who is who. But that's ok, we can see you got a lot out of the practice. It *especially* did wonders for your ego.

>>19197731

My usual suggestion is Astral Dynamics.

>>19197747
12. The Yogi should practice Hatha Yoga in a small room, situated in a solitary place,
being 4 cubits square, and free from stones, fire, water, disturbances of all kinds, and in a
country where justice is properly administered, where good people live, and food can be
obtained easily and plentifully.
13. The room should have a small door, be free from holes, hollows, neither too high nor
too low, well plastered with cow-dung and free from dirt, filth and insects. On its outside
there should be bowers, raised platform (chabootrâ), a well, and a compound. These
characteristics of a room for Hatha Yogis have been described by adepts in the practice of
Hatha.
14. Having seated in such a room and free from all anxieties, he should practice Yoga, as
instructed by his gurû .
15. Yoga is destroyed by the following six causes:-- Over-eating, exertion, talkativeness,
adhering to rules, i.e., cold bath in the morning, eating at night, or eating fruits only,
company of men, and unsteadiness.
16. The following six bring speedy success:-- Courage, daring, perseverance,
discriminative knowledge, faith, aloofness from company.
17. The ten rules of conduct are: ahimsâ (non-injuring), truth, non-stealing, continence,
forgiveness, endurance, compassion, meekness, sparing diet, and cleanliness.
18. The ten niyamas mentioned by those proficient in the knowledge of Yoga are: Tapa,
patience, belief in God, charity, adoration of God, hearing discourses on the principles of
religion, shame, intellect, Tapa and Yajna.

Is not practical for everyone, everywhere, every time.

>>19197766
Not saying these are absolutely vital for success in Hatha Yoga, but the manual certainly asserts that they are.

>>19197750

Thanks, I'll check it out.

>>19197772
>let the student decide for himself what form of life,
what moral code, will least tend to excite his mind; but once he has formulated it, let him stick to it, avoiding
opportunism; and let him be very careful to take no credit for what he does or refrains from doing — it is a
purely practical code, of no value in itself.

A.C. Liber 4, part 1 Chp.3

>>19197747
nowhere did i imply that he or i or anyone should follow the restrictions in the text as some are not practical for most people that will do the practice. am i a poo-in-loo yogi from a few centuries ago that left the householder life to practice yoga in full earnest? no. that's who it was written for. does that mean it cant be used? yoga is incremental. if one reads it and adds even one of the many practices in it to their daily life, they will be better off. ive picked up a lot more than just one of them, and ive made extensive notes, so that when i do go on extended periods of solitary practice, i can add the other (non-practical in terms of the householder life i currently lead) practices to my own.

>>19197766
12 & 13 are unnecessary. use them metaphorically if you want, keep a clean quiet area where you practice. 14 is straightforward. 15...so impractical! dont eat too much, dont overexert yourself, dont talk too much, dont live like a puppet controlled by rules, dont have a cold shower in the morning, dont eat at night, dont eat just fruits, dont associate with dumbasses, be solid in your practice. 15: straightfoward. 17&18: general inner and outer observances of morality.

sorry, that's not practical? then youve got bigger problems to deal with than "not being able to practice yoga". it's not an all or nothing thing, and if you think it is so then you will never even START doing yoga.

>>19197837
Totally in agreement with that, based on personal experience.

>>19197840

You are hereby referred to your post:
>>19197733

and literally the entirety of this conversation.

>>19197848
at least 80% of the pradipika is simple and straightfoward so i dont know why your panties are in a bunch.

>>19197840
It's absolutely silly how butthurt you are getting about this. AGAIN, it has become necessary to refer you to a previous post:

>And yes, there are also some very stupid people on here, and you can't always tell who is who. But that's ok, we can see you got a lot out of the practice. It *especially* did wonders for your ego.

Silly sailor. Why practice contemplative techniques if you're not going to utilize the benefits in day to day conversation?

>>19197875
In other words, in case that doesn't spell it right out for you, this has nothing to do with *MY* ability to work the system, as it was a great starting point and still is incredibly helpful to me...however, I have met other people (who were *not* me), both in real life and on the internet, for whom it was too much right off the bat...particularly getting confused by a lot of the references to other texts and traditions, etc.

>>19197895
that'd be all fine and good but the pradipika is pretty much the first text recommended to new students of yoga by a very large number of teachers, both western and eastern. it is simple, and as i said, and as it says in the book itself (though on this point i might be mixing it up with the gheranda or shiva samhita) that yoga is a cumulative, step-wise practice. most cant read the yogic texts and add all of practices at once. but even picking up a few small things, like yama and niyama, or pranayama, or a few asanas, or the general gist and understanding of the spirit of yoga, will lead one to begin treading the path, which is the most important first step. i dont wish to insult you. forgive me if ive been brash.

>>19197933
All three of 'em say that, in so many words.

>>19197941
Dropped the other trip, eh?

>>19197933
Totally in agreement with you on all that...However, all I'm able to get out of that is that you think the people to whom I'm referring, who are too 'stupid' or 'inept' to get into yoga via Hatha Yoga Pradapika, should not even attempt Yoga from any other viewpoint.

And thank you. My apologies, as well. We're too antagonistic to each other on here sometimes, almost all of us are guilty of it to some degree, and we should really try to stop if possible. It's counter-productive.

>>19197950
I've been arguing with in favor of Pure Land and Adi Buddha being doctrinally sound in Buddhist canon canon on /his/.

>>19197959
>you think the people to whom I'm referring, who are too 'stupid' or 'inept' to get into yoga via Hatha Yoga Pradapika, should not even attempt Yoga from any other viewpoint
no sir. my original comment was that i find crowley's view of yoga to be deficient, and thats why i dont recommend him as an introduction to yoga. i think anyone who is interested in yoga can read all the main yogic texts (shiva, gheranda, pradipika, etc) and get at least something out of it. if not practices then at least some conviction that yoga calls to them. then they can go read whatever, or look at videos, or join a class, or anything else. but if they get that from crowley, then thats fine too.

>We're too antagonistic to each other on here sometimes, almost all of us are guilty of it to some degree, and we should really try to stop if possible. It's counter-productive.
absolutely. it's easy to let go of the ego, and then it goes and starts mucking things up.

>>19197966
>Pure Land being doctrinally sound in Buddhist canon
Are you trying to trigger me?

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>>19197969
Yes.
It's an entirely orthodox concept:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology#Pure_Abodes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An%C4%81g%C4%81mi

In either case Adi-Buddha is slightly more common in the Vajrayana traditions that straight Mahayana; and even then it's most often referring to, again, an orthodox concept:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trikaya#P.C4.81li_Canon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmak%C4%81ya#Pali_Canon

>>19197975
I know of the pure lands mentioned in the pali canon, but they are mentioned in passing, and have no bearing on the path towards enlightenment. The Pure Landers that say that all you need to do is repeat their mantra a trillion times and then you'll be reborn in the pure lands are full of shit and unorthodox. I've noticed in Mahayana writings, the pure lands are used as a gimmick to gild their otherwise anemic scriptures. If you take away the descriptions of the pure lands from...say the Shurangama sutra, you're left with barely anything at all. I really dislike their over-the-top style that adds nothing but a thin layer of fantasy fiction to their otherwise boring philosophical additions to the teachings of the Buddha which add very little substance to the path towards enlightenment.

As for adi-buddha, same thing, but at least it isn't as annoying as the pure land wankery (thankfully).

>>19197998
>and have no bearing on the path towards enlightenment
>The third stage of enlightenment is that of the Anāgāmī (Sanskrit: Anāgāmin), literally meaning "one who does not (an-) come (āgacchati)". The non-returner, having overcome sensuality, does not return to the human world, or any unfortunate world lower than that, after death. Instead, non-returners are reborn in one of the five special worlds in Rūpadhātu called the Śuddhāvāsa worlds, or "Pure Abodes", and there attain Nirvāṇa; Pāli: Nibbana; some of them are reborn a second time in a higher world of the Pure Abodes.

Sounds like it has bearing, mate.

>The Pure Landers that say that all you need to do is repeat their mantra a trillion times and then you'll be reborn in the pure lands are full of shit and unorthodox
I (mostly) don't disagree.

>I've noticed in Mahayana writings
Yeah you don't see that in the Prajnaparamita Sutras which form the backbone of Vajrayana practice.

>Shurangama sutra
We both know that's low hanging fruit.

>>19198015
>Sounds like it has bearing, mate.
How so? If the pure lands are real places that you go to when you die, and if youre an anagami, you'll get there and figure out the next steps. Why bother with that now?
Also,
>dying as an anagami
>not becoming an arahant
Pleb tier.

>Shurangama
If only that were the only infected one.

>>19198015
Man , you are [TRIGGERing] people on two boards! Nothing will beat the reactions on /his/ though

>>19197966
>in favor of pure land
Not what I expected

>>19198045
>tfw your friend asks if you wanna smoke, and procures a crackpipe

>>19198029
>>dying as an anagami
>>not becoming an arahant
"Yeah and if they get hit by a runaway truck, fuck 'em, they start over as a fucking dog."
Said Siddhartha never.

>Why bother with that now?
I dunno as a locus point and meeting zone for everyone that, by WHATEVER circumstance, has a few knots of karma left to unkink to organize a mass crossover of the Stream (you know, Big Boat?) as soon as metaphysically possible?

I mean, it's just me talkin', but that sounds like the most possibly effective supplement to teaching the Dharma within the metaphysical system among those who are in the Stream but haven't Submerged.

>>19198061
What you've said in the past two posts is strikingly similar to the Christian conception of heaven. Why bother with enlightenment here and now when I can go to heaven and achieve it there?

>I dunno as a locus point and meeting zone for everyone that, by WHATEVER circumstance, has a few knots of karma left to unkink to organize a mass crossover of the Stream (you know, Big Boat?) as soon as metaphysically possible?
I literally don't know what to say to this. Where the fuck did you come up with this? You sound like you've been smoking the craziest tibetan opium or someshit. Holy balls.

>>19198061
Isn't it great how, since discussing your drug use on here, everyone whips out that old ad hom when they disagree?

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>>19198073
>Why bother with enlightenment here and now when I can go to heaven and achieve it there?
GROSS misrepresentation of the doctrines of the orthodox Vajrayana schools in Tibet.

According to most of the Tibetan schools the only valid goal is achieving Liberation as quickly as possible. "One who aspires to become buddha as soon as possible and then help sentient beings in full fledge."

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso notes:
>In reality, the second two types of bodhicitta are wishes that are impossible to fulfill because it is only possible to lead others to enlightenment once we have attained enlightenment ourself. Therefore, only king-like bodhicitta is actual bodhicitta. Je Tsongkhapa says that although the other Bodhisattvas wish for that which is impossible, their attitude is sublime and unmistaken.

>smoking the craziest tibetan opium or someshit
Nepalese, actually. Hash and opium mixed together. But that's mostly a Newar temple tradition.

seems like the gods, pure lands, and other metaphysical remnants from the buddha's time, kept in the canon as rhetorical devices...that was a mistake, because 2500 years later some tripfag thinks hes going to have get togethers with half-enlightened people in some magical land after death. what in the name of fuck

>>19198086
Why do people always conflate "arguing (x) is or isn't doctrinal" with "I 100% support or denounce (x)"?

>>19198086
Show me in the Tripitaka where it says that seeking out the Dharma from gods who learned it directly from Siddhartha is unacceptable.

Because I'm pretty sure it says that Buddha taught the Gods. And I'm pretty sure it says that was to spread the Dharma.

And even if we don't take this literally is this not substantiation that syncretism is fine in the canon so long as it conforms to and/or flows from the Dharma?

>>19198098
he "taught the gods" but it's also said that the gods are unable to reach enlightenment, so what can you learn from the gods? why seek dharma from those that cannot be enlightened?

>And even if we don't take this literally is this not substantiation that syncretism is fine in the canon so long as it conforms to and/or flows from the Dharma?
perhaps, or perhaps it is evidence that those metaphysical remnants were kept in order to attract and/or appease the masses from the time, who might have been too scared to practice buddhism if it seemed devoid of that metaphysical stuff. or perhaps it's something else. could be almost anything.

>>19198061
I actually vibe with this and as far as I can tell a lot of spiritual movements like Kabbalah do something very similar. My only question is how would that meetup occur? By virtue of a common practice or spiritual linage?

>>19198115
>it's also said that the gods are unable to reach enlightenment
They already subsist at a higher strata than us. Inability to break the wheel due to their very substance does NOT preclude them from being vehicles of the Dharma, just as a betopknotted granola chewing secular "buddhist" faggot in the West can (potentially) pass along valid information.

>what can you learn from the gods?
Things Buddha didn't teach men, because it's super fucking clear that Siddhartha was telling different chelas different shit to account for variance (and even explaining why).

>remnants were kept in order to attract and/or appease the masses from the time
I dunno how this refutes or overturns my point, and sounds quite like a reaffirmation.

>>19198125
>My only question is how would that meetup occur? By virtue of a common practice or spiritual linage?
>>19198061
>I dunno
>>19198029
>you'll get there and figure out the next steps

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>To recap, pic related is a short summary of all arguments ITT against the canonicity of Pure Land and Adi Buddha

>>19198167
>ive got everything i need in my body to reach nirvana
>ive got hundreds of thousands of pages worth of scriptures, most of which are unnecessary and bogus, but nonetheless, i have all these writings point the way to nirvana
>i better go to talk to some gods outside of myself to get more dharma
>im greedy for dharma, i need more of it
>does all of that instead of turning inward
>dont worry, somehow the soul that doesnt exist will materialize after my death in the rhetorical pure lands (because obviously i wont become an arahant in this life because i keep searching outwardly for nirvana)
>and then when im in the pure lands ill figure out how to achieve nirvana there
pretty sure youre coming back as a dog, mate

>>19198207
>instead of turning inward
>Khenpo Tsultrim's Reply

All visualizations are imagination.
All imagination is appearance/emptiness.
Without being attached to appearance/emptiness as real,
rest without fixation, without focus.

Death and no death, these are also imagined.
In the expanse of equality, there's neither death nor no death.
The same with dark and light and gods and demons.
The expanse of equality is all there is.
I have never seen a single thing that's real.

>>19198183
>>To recap, pic related is a short summary of all arguments ITT against the canonicity of Pure Land and Adi Buddha

>>19198219
>>19198207
>Buddha tells on Chela to meditate on observing his mind
>Yet another to meditate on observing his body
>Yet a third to meditate on observing his garden.
>But despite the three being every bit as illusory as the gods.
>The gods are off the table for observation because Anon said so.

>>19198207

Tilting at a windmill, friend. You can't help those who intentionally choose to bury their heads up their own asses like some manner of smug chaos-warped ostrich. Often it is best to just keep your pity for them to yourself and let them go about their way since they'll shrug off any attempts to help them as an attack.

>>19198264
I certainly don't feel attacked, though a canon citation for the invalidity of the doctrines in question would be much appreciated.

>>19198302
though a canon citation for the validity of the doctrines in question would be much appreciated.

>>19198324
The Dharma needs neither my nor your defense.
I'm simply asking you to substantiate your arguments.

>>19198328
youre the one who first brought up the claims so why dont you go first?

>>19198331
actually dont because it doesnt actually matter to me. im out of here. this thread was the only reason i ever came to this board and this is the last board i ever went on because the rest are cancer, and you were the only person i had even a bit of respect for. the last dozen threads or so had me questioning why i still came back here but now i know it's a waste of time. peace. thanks for the keks. i hope you dont reincarnate as a dog btw.

>>19198331
>youre the one who first brought up the claims so why dont you go first?
>>19197975
Ratana Sutta.
Vajra Sutra.
Aggañña Sutta.
Lakkhaṇa Sutta.
Mahāli Sutta.
Jāliya Sutta.
Mahasudassana Sutta.
Janavasabha Sutta.
Dīgha Nikāya 27.9.
Samyutta Nikaya.
Gradual Sayings.
Middle Length Sayings.
The Group of Discourses.
Dialogues of the Buddha.
The Itivuttaka.
The Dhammapada.
The All-Embracing Net of Views.
Long Discourses of the Buddha.
The Sutta-Nipata.
Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā
The Pali Text Society’s Pali–English Dictionary.

>>19197069
>>19197073

Heh.

>>19197354
>It's a convenient framework for exploring the Western tradition but by no means is the start or end of Gnosis.

Agreed.

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>>19198412
>Heh
IJS, for my part, inside or outside of formal contexts, a Link was forged between us by Fire of God himself and the implications are hard to parse solo.

>>19198381
I took a look at some of these sutras (the shorter ones, as I'm a bit pressed for time) and I don't see what your point is. The "pure abodes" or whatever are mentioned only in passing and aren't expounded on. If your point was that the pure abodes are canonical, congrats on proving literally no one wrong. No one denied that they weren't part of the Pali Canon. Some argue the degree of importance, but that's a different story isn't it?

Your claim was this:
>"I dunno as a locus point and meeting zone for everyone that, by WHATEVER circumstance, has a few knots of karma left to unkink to organize a mass crossover of the Stream (you know, Big Boat?) as soon as metaphysically possible?"

Where did you get this idea from? Because I doubt it's part of the Pali Canon. Maybe in some tantra or whatever, though. Do you have a source?

>>19198583
>I don't see what your point is.
Well, then let's backtrack.

>>19198583
>The "pure abodes" or whatever are mentioned only in passing and aren't expounded on.
>>19198015

>your point was that the pure abodes are canonical, congrats on proving literally no one wrong.
>>19197969
>>Pure Land being doctrinally sound in Buddhist canon
>Are you trying to trigger me?
>>19197975
>Yes.
>It's an entirely orthodox concept:

>Where did you get this idea from
Speculations on my own reflections. I was told I should stop, so pardon.
That said, you asked why and I'm not yet blessed with the Buddhamind; I can think of few reasons why Siddhartha would describe what essentially amounts to a holding tank for those almost Submerged in the Stream without it having some sort of function in the cosmology or in Streamentry in general.

The Tibetan initiations I'm intimately familiar with all use it as a FAILSAFE not a GOAL (Vajrayogini Tantra, Cakrasaṃvara Tantra, Hevajra Tantra).

>>19198675
>what religion will he practice next?

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>>19198682
I dunno mate muh dick's pretty hard for Zoroastrianism and Sufism/Illuminationism. Paradoxically the former's more accessible than the latter due to all my Fiqh interests being crazy obscure where the Zoros posted translations of the materials in the 90's.

>>19198700
what do you hope to gain?

>>19198675
I think>>19197969 was talking about Pure Land as the subschool, not pure lands as something mentioned in passing in the Pali Canon. I haven't read too much Pure Land literature but I went to this festival in my town where the Pure Landers had a booth set up and they handed out free books. I talked to them for a bit and they seemed kooky. Then I read two or three of their short books and they were extra kooky. I don't know where they got their concepts from. Maybe there are some other spots in the Canon where it goes into more detail but I haven't seen that yet.

>The Tibetan initiations I'm intimately familiar with all use it as a FAILSAFE not a GOAL
I'm going to read those tantras sometime soon, but what do you mean by this?

>>19198789
>but what do you mean by this?
They usually have oath clauses with something SORTA to the effect of:
"And if I may perish before the obligations of this oath are complete may I be reborn in [Pure Land of Devotional Godform] to finish my Boddhisattva training."

INSTEAD OF:

"Whatever man fuck it let's just go to Dakini Heaven, we can put off Attainment for a few karmic cycles, amirite?"

>>19198820
Ah I see.
>Dakini Heaven
Where do I sign?

>>19198838
Vajrayogini Tantra is fairly low on the totem pole of initiations. More above than below it in most schools.
>Where do I sign
I know, right?

>>19198852
What are the highest?