Free will does not exist

Exist and do not exist. You are right and you don't. Sorry your answer only can be respond by yourself.

Do you feel as if you don't have any free will? Ok probably it's true. I feel as if i have free will? Yeah, also this is true either.

But, of course our free will is not the only, if you want to see what is free will you have to surpass other's free will.

>>18605532
I didn't understand any of that.

>>18605542

This is your first problem. You are right, i'm right. You are wrong, i am wrong.

Who is wrong, and who is right?

Damn OP eating so much shit he almost german

>>18605548
Prove me wrong.

>>18605254
Irrelevant.

If we don't have free will, then we cannot change the fact that we act as if we have free will.

>>18605547
My problem. Your problem. Our problem. Who has a problem and who hasn't?

>>18605550
>You subconsciously made that decision before you became aware of it.
My subconscious is a part of who I am, claiming a decision made by it is not my own is like saying that because it was the president of the US decided to do something, the government had no control over it being done.

>>18605555
nice quads

>>18605557


You get it, now we have solved this particular problem, also, there is more people who doesn't know about that problem.

It means then, that the problem is solved? Just for you and me, the rest still have the question and the solution. And didn't ask for any of both.

Until they do

File: 575535735.png (7KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 500x500px

>>18605558
That's not the point, though. If every decision is made subconsciously, we are not responsible for any of our actions. To me, that's both liberating and scary at the same time.

Basically, we humans are merely observers of what our body is doing while thinking we are in control.

And yes, I am high right now.

>>18605254
You're dumb it's uncontrollable events that pre determine which decision will be made as the same decision would be made in any situation what did you say bitch

Is this one of those things that people use to get away with being a loser? I'm not a failure because we don't have free will so I was destined to fail

>>18605580
Your subconscious is a part of you, yah goof. You are the whole, and it is part of that whole. Doesn't matter if it makes you start masturbating in public, you still chose to do that.

Enlightenment is recognising this and being able to control everything you do without any factors of yourself play an influence.

>>18605588
That's semantics. The question is, how are we responsible for decisions we subconsciously make?

>>18605254
you might not

but that doesnt mean other people dont

>>18605596
Because your subconscious is a part of you.
Take it out of the picture, and you would no longer be you. You'd be a version of yourself who has no subconscious.
Your subconscious does make decisions, yeah, but it always has, and always has been a part of you, take it away, and you wouldn't be you, and you wouldn't be making the same decisions.

>>18605254
I think we are limited in free will. There are genetic parameters, then nature/nurture in development, and social pressures growing up that give us a set of probable actions and outcomes.

I believe in determinism. I think that we can try to re-condition ourselves and I believe in cognitive behavioral methods.


>>18605580
>humans are merely observers of what our body is doing

I agree

>>18605254
>citing the Atlantic as a credible source

We don't even understand the brain's "programming" language, let alone the concept of what free will or consciousness is or where it might be located in the body.

>>18605629
>genetic parameters, nature/nurture, social pressures
Your body is a part of you, as are your memories. You wouldn't be the same you without them, stupid fuck.

>>18605629
Eh, really I'd argue that memories, and your genes are a part of you. If you didn't have them, you wouldn't be you, and any decisions you made would be irrelevant since it wouldn't be you making them.

>>18605602
My subconscious is part of me, but that does not make me responsible. How could I have done anything different if I'm incapable of making conscious decisions? Conscious decision-making is a vital part of responsibilty.

>>18605640
>I am not responsible for decisions that I make
>being this fucking retarded
Subconscious, conscious, fucking weird memory from 3rd grade, it's still a part of you making the decision to do whatever, dumbass.

>>18605640
Your subconscious is a part of you though, and the conscious mind wouldn't really function without it, atleast not the way it does now.
You keep thinking of this as if your subconscious and your conscious were two separate entities, when they're just two parts to a whole.

>>18605640
Knee-jerk reactions, saying something before you think about what you're saying and then regretting it, leaping before looking, and other similar things could be argued as manifestations of an independent subconscious.

However, I counter that argument with the fact that humans are not perfect machines. Our neurons fire in the wrong way sometimes because of some underlying stimuli or our subconsciousness processing information faster than our conscious self can grasp. IMO, that's not a sign of two separate entities, it's a sign of some wonky hardware.

>>18605643
Following that logic, people in a psychosis are responsible as well? How about your 92 y/o grandma with Alzheimer's? It's still a part of them making the decision, right?

>>18605656
Yes.
But the part of them making said decision has a dysfunction.

>>18605656
Think of people as computers. If A computer glitches out, is it because some outside force made the decision? No, it's because the computer's bugged. It still made the decision, but part of it's decision making apparatus is broke.

>>18605634
>>18605638
That's deciding what the essence of a person is a priority.

Is it not consciousness? Or this carcass?
You don't know and we can't prove this yet.

>>18605669
A person is a whole.
They are their body, their mind, their wants, desires, memories, their faults, their strengths.

>>18605669
>I can't prove you wrong, so I'll just claim that you can't prove your point
>kys

>>18605662
Computers don't make decisions. They perform operations some outside force decided it should run.

Bad example.

>>18605675
AI then, if you want to be a semantic little shit.

>>18605675
They do though, and can make even more complicated and abstract ones if they have the right software, and hardware.

>>18605672
Are you one to argue that the boat is a whole new boat?

Forgive me if you don't know the analogy.


I think the essence of a person, the consciousness is separated from memory. Memory changes.

You can swap your RAM but your motherboard is the start of processing

>>18605677
AI doesn't exist in the sense you are thinking. And it's a telling thought, as I bet the only distinction you're making between a computer algorithm and an AI is "the AI can make decisions."

>>18605679
No, they don't.

>>18605688
Honestly I would argue that, given current cutting edge trends, sentient A.I. does exist in some form.

>>18605677
I love you anon

>>18605674
We'll anon, we can't prove who is right but I'm listening to all your points.

File: 1484470692401.png (58KB, 151x210px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 151x210px

There is no free will. You have the illusion of free will and that is good enough.

>>18605254
This nigga gets it.

>>18605254
I believe in some form of determinism but I think conscious blocks exist and can intervene and prevent actions sometimes.

File: proofster.jpg (13KB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 250x250px

>The Atlantic
>Editor-in-chief Jeffrey Goldberg

Yes i am sure we can all trust a Legacy Media outlet publishing Nihilistic/Moral Relitives blackpills for the benefit of all those stupid goiym who think free will exists

File: 1486433873605.jpg (9KB, 292x173px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 292x173px

>>18605833

everything you do is your past events putting you in this situation and your past observations determining how you react

there is no choice, there is only 1 action that could ever be done by you at that moment. life is an incredibly huge math equation, not a multiple choice question

however yeah, if we believe in the illusion of choice or not, our actions will be the exact same so it's kind of a moot point

>>18605254
I often believe we are in control of literally one thing, and it determines how life plays out:

The ability to focus on "love".

Love vs. hate. Neutral position is "hate", too.

You gotta try to focus on that "on switch".

So yeah, being positive brings positivity to you.

Being negative or even neutral brings negativity to you.

Life just fills in the blanks.

>>18605887
Well said.

>>18605875

>make some basic observations
>muh /pol/

keep chugging those blackpills fag, it will work out just fine for you later in life

File: 1486410012823.png (85KB, 696x289px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 696x289px

>>18605979
The only thing I'm chugging is your dad's average penis. You're the faggot here getting triggered by polololol

Come here, let me kiss your hurt feefees

>>18605254

>Implying subconsciousness isn't part of oneself.

LMAO please go back to tumblr

Also how old are you?

Subconsciousness is part of the conscience mind dumbass

the "conscience" is only ONE part of the mind, just because you are not aware of your actions in one part of yourself doesn't mean you have "no control or free will"

Please get an education

>>18606129
*subconsciousness is part of the whole mind

sub + consciousnesses = ?

Most people pushing the idea of no free will or the virtual reality garbage

are the same people who do not wish to take responsibility for their own actions

coincidence??

File: 000_4chan_NOTICE2.png (93KB, 459x426px) Image search: [Google]

93KB, 459x426px

>>18605254
>zero evidence to suggest that free will exists.

croc of stinking fly covered shit

For humans to have no free will then determinism would have to be universal. There is no smoking gun science that proves the entire universe is deterministic. Thus the possibility remains open for free will

File: 1351531.gif (319KB, 365x205px) Image search: [Google]

319KB, 365x205px

>>18606569
>Thus the possibility remains open for free will
≠
>Free will exists

Occam's razor suggests free will does not exist, until proven otherwise.

>>18606589

Right, but that doesn't mean it doesn't now does it? it is in that gray zone

of "we don't know"

File: 1418583487066.gif (1MB, 217x217px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 217x217px

>>18606595
It doesn't, but -- without any evidence -- it makes more sense not to believe in free will.

>>18606144
^^^^^^^^^^

>>18606607

Wonderful logic

so if you don't see it it doesn't exist KEK,

>>18605254
Should that stop you from living your life?
Protip: no

>>18606607

Alright I need to clear out 4chan way too much BS going on in here. See you

File: IMG_2413.png (128KB, 502x1002px) Image search: [Google]

128KB, 502x1002px

>>18605254
English is being murdered ITT. An act of free will.

>>18605254
Deciding to act, it's last action you take after a series of events have already taken place.

A decision ain't taken on the air, life it's not a vacuum.

The sheer complexity of single decision if you take into consideration the factors that make that decision and such act possible it's so vast that many steps must be taken.

Some of wich are left to random chance, but not all of them.

Free will reside in such acts, not in the decision making as understood mechanically, but as the whole experience.

In there you are free.

Such limits over the decision making process are only temporary, and don't represent the whole of the circumstances.

File: IMG_1262.png (123KB, 612x563px) Image search: [Google]

123KB, 612x563px

People using the same responses. Canned rhetoric. So much intelligent. Be sure, your a legend in your own mind. Coded language, sans reason.

>>18606625
>>18606627
Are you serious? You don't need evidence before you believe in something?

>>18606667
That's not how belief works.

Belief triggers the search for evidence.

>>18606667

?????????? Now you just putting words in mouth

Nice bait

>>18606674
>>18606675
I don't 'believe' (semantics) free will exist, because there is 0 evidence to suggest that. What's so funny about that?

>>18605254
I can tell my finger to move and not move it. I can tell my finger to stay still and it I will it to move.
Only irresponsible whiners deny free will or their own responsibility for their pathetic life.

>>18605555
Nor can anyone actually be convinced that it does or doesn't exist, so posting stuff like the OP is completely pointless.

We can do as we will but we cannot will as we will. In other words we can act according to our nature but we did not choose our nature. Every action is motivated by the pursuit of pleasure and in this way we can only behave in according with what we believe will bring the most gratification.

>>18605254
The people behind the scenes are controlling us, We don't have free will, they control our will. Free will exists at the other side, the side where they control us. They fight each other out.

>>18605580
The people that control the soul can see into the future.

Lies and demoralisation.

>>18607484
That's not what were talking about. On a fundamental level even our most minute decisions are not in our control.

>>18607493
Yes, the other side is controlling us. We don't and we can't do anything about it.

>>18607493
>>18607501
We only believe we control ourselves.

Nope. No free will. Consciousness is merely an observer.

All actions are pre-determined, coulod be predicted with knowledge of all possible variables (too much to ever achieve.)

That's the point, too many variables so it will always FEEL like you're in control. But, you're not. We are all products of the past. A direct line of causation.

Just here to watch the fractal unfold, and to learn.

>>18607565
Some may argue that not all events are caused but randomly occur. While impossible it would simply mean our will is determined by random forces and hence no free will.

>>18607574
That is actually truth. There is always a probability curve. That probability is the only argument FOR free will, but at the end there is no evidence that we can actually AFFECT the outcome of the probability.

>>18607584
This nigga gets it.

>>18607614
Still, taking this view, if consciousness is simply observing, where is it observing FROM?

Or is even the observation a hallucination? At the end of the day, perhaps it's all smoke and mirrors.

>>18607655
When you understand there is no free will you also begin to realize that not even your thoughts on your own. The rabbit hole goes deep and i'm not sure it ever ends.

>>18607669
Any books/articles about this?

>>18605254
Doesn't factor in uncertainty or chaos.

Well done with your incomplete theory of lack of free will, the mind is capable of anything, impossible things.

>>18605254

Everything can be bootstrapped towards a perfected story of love that always goes forward, who gives a flying fuck about free will.

>there's no free will
You'd be surprised of how your life changes at a big experience.

>>18608381
I want to see her again. Don't care about free will either.

>>18605254
Determinism dictates that there is no free will, just cause and effect. There is one optimal way of thought and action, and it's determined by pre-existing information and options available to you.

>muh quantum physics
Unless you side with Copenhagen faggots, quantum physics are deterministic as well, we just don't know all of its laws, so we use randomness as a placeholder.

>>18608814
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

>>18605254
God exists

>>18605254
>No, you did not. You subconsciously made that decision before you became aware of it.

So why didnt I subconsciously make the decision not to instead?

this one time I slapped myself across the face for no reason, I was not biologically programmed to inflict pain on myself but I did it anyway, therefore free will exists

Saying free will does not exist is like saying a submarine can't swim. And giving up your agency to the idea that free will doesn't exist is like getting out of your submarine because you think it can't swim.

>>18609224
So can you prove free will exists?

>>18608368
Free Will by Sam Harris. Also check out the show exploring the illusion of free will

>>18608371
See
>>18607584

>>18605532
Dude, your English sucks shit.

>>18609953
Great book, though I don't know if I'm on board with this whole free-will is an illusion. Every choice you make is predetermined by your past and experiences, etc etc.

Even if true, what does this truth hold?

I know I had free will when I fucked you mom OP

>>18609979
It changes everything we know about the world. Think of how the legal system would be affected knowing that he had no choice in committing the crime.

>>18605547
faggot

>>18610016
>Think of how the legal system would be affected
Why would it change? The legal system has no free will either. They will continue to prosecute and punish according to their predetermined path as well.

Again - the question of free will is 100% irrelevant.

If we have free will, nothing changes. If we don't, we can change nothing.

File: 21.jpg (97KB, 506x505px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 506x505px

>>18610102
There was once a time when a police officer would have to appear in court and plead justified homicide after killing someone in cold blood, but nowadays they just get automatic impunity

>>18610109
Pomegranates will burst out of their rind? Does that mean I've only ever eaten unripe poms? No wonder they are so annoying to eat. Damn Western produce companies and selling us improper shit.

>people unironically trying to say Free Will doesn't exists

totally legit and not INTP faggots with 0 self-control trying to rationalize their failures in life

File: 54d042560f1b.gif (1000KB, 400x225px) Image search: [Google]

1000KB, 400x225px

>>18610200
Show us some proof that free will does exist.

Thought so.

>>18610200
my life is fantastic thank you. but that doesn't mean i chose for it to be that way
its just the part I play in the huge organism of humanity, a path I was set on from the moment I was born to my specific parents at that specific place and time

its not rationalizing anything, it's accepting that every choice you think you are making isn't a choice, but a predetermined reaction based on your life and experiences

but I know insecure types need to feel they control something so they freak out about how true this is and are predetermined to dismiss it outright

>>18610212
>Onus of proof is on the one making the claim
>Asks detractors for evidence that he is wrong

See, free will must exist for you to choose to be so logically fallible.

I believe everything is predetermined, but there are multiple paths that we are given to choose from. The paths are predetermined, and whatever paths open up after choosing that path, but which path we will choose is not predetermined.

>>18605254
>There is zero evidence to suggest that free will exists.

Free will exists because there is no proof of God, the afterlife, karma or any reason to believe there will be consequences for our actions in life.

If God said Hello, free will would disappear and we would all behave nicer to each other.

>>18610990
What the fuck are you talking about? Free will doesn't exist regardless of any of those things.

>>18610679
but it's not a fallacy as we aren't making a claim. we are refuting yours
the assumption that free will is real is the established belief that you subscribe to.
therefore, prove it

>>18605254
ITT
OP's FIRST MUSHROOM TRIP!

Have fun guy