Can we talk metaphysics? I want to discuss how space and time

>>18474179
>space and time
spacetime.

>>18474179
Why stop at the concept of spacetime? Our collective worldviews are feeble representations of actual reality.

>>18474179
>>18474220
share your views lonely /x/phile. id like to hear.

>>18474229
OP here. Kaant said that we, as humans, are limited in our capacity to perceive reality as it really is. Everything we know about reality is based on our own perception of it. It seems intuitive when you really think about it. We already know that our bodies are not perfect. We can't see a whole chunk of the electromagnetic spectrum. Our minds can't perceive more than 3 dimensions of space. We are not able to move backwards in time. These are all huge limitations. However, these limitations can still be described intelligibly. They're all still grounded in concepts like spacetime and causality. But imagine that our limitations are more severe than that. Imagine that reality, as it actually is, is inconceivable to us. And so it has to be "filtered" through a veil. That's the only way we can understand anything.

>>18474229
Actual reality is free from abstractions; abstractions like the symbols we use to define and understand truth. Our measurements of matter, our language used to explain those measurements and what they mean, our mental categorizations of all the phenomena around us, all of it is abstract symbols used to describe reality, none of it is reality.

>>18474262
im sure thats true, not 'filtered', but rather 'limited' by our own ability to perceive. like you said, science already shows this to be the case.
would you think animals perceive other parts of reality that we do not?

>>18474262
It's easy to say "outside of spacetime" but we can't really perceive what that means because everything we experience is grounded in spacetime. We (living creatures) consider ourselves to be superior to rocks and the like, because they are not conscious. But who's to say that we possess perfect awareness? Their might be some "higher" beings that would laugh at us.

>he can only exist in one place at a time! xD
>he can't make effects without a cause! xD
>he can't override the "rules" of logic! xD

It's attractive to think we are that special, and not just a historical 4d recording of history.

>>18474275
but what if reality was the highest sense of abstraction? what we perceive is just a matching of every detailedness below.
so kinda like abstract algebra, but we all sudoku it in someway to fit our understandings. and there are bubbles of different logical understandings, some adhere to science, some to physics, some to magic, some to psycology etc.

>>18474281
>would you think animals perceive other parts of reality that we do not?

Unless cats really are magical creatures that have meetings in the land of dreams, no.

>>18474282
Or it could be we are the highest beings on our way to adulthood?

>>18474290
they still perceive the world different than you or i.
unless youre saying you can actually communicate with cats.

>>18474289
The point of using the word "abstraction" was to differentiate that which is without substance from that which is to be regarded as the fundamental truth or reality.
So when you say "Highest sense of abstraction" all that means to me is the highest sense of illusion. Honestly, I don't think i'm following what you're trying to say.

>>18474312
eh, i meant abstraction in the mathematical sense. illusion is just illusion, it really has nothing to do with abstraction, truth or reality.
for example you can take an operation and apply it integers, the abstract it to vectors, matrices, objects, people etc.. the 'level' of abstraction.

>>18474292
>>18474292
It'd be nice if we really were on the top of the metaphysical food chain. Whether we are or are not, it'd be impossible to know. If there are higher beings than they most likely would not interact with us. If they did communicate with us somehow, it'd have to be in a way that is perceivable to us. That is, it would have to obey our laws. Would something that is within the realms of our understanding be able to prove something that is not within the realm of our understanding? Put more simply, if someone like Jesus came to Earth he'd have to start performing a lot of miracles before anybody took him seriously. The same basically applies to a "higher" being. But I guess it's much harder to prove that spacetime doesn't exist to a bunch of beings who are made up of, and exist within, spacetime.

We're all garbonzos in the hummus bowl of life, said a wise schizoshaman to me.

>>18474295
Perceive as in they have different sensory systems. Cats can see in the dark, some crustaceans have more rods and cones, allowing them to see more colors, etc. But these are just superficial differences. A real difference would be a cat that knew that had no understanding of causality and thought that humans were dullards for assuming it exists. Maybe they do think like that. Who knows.

>>18474323
i agree, thats impossible to prove. but since we're talking 'meta'physics we can still wonder :)
it could be there are higher beings that interact with us, yet still remain impercieveable for unknown reasons.
or maybe we are at the top, we are still evolving on our way to realization.
or then maybe we are just built to wonder yet never understand due to the limits of our brain.
i like to believe in the second statement.

>>18474340
A bird that can perceive the geomagnetic field just as we perceive color, or dolphins that perceive motion in fluid different to us is, maybe supercifial, but say we extrapolate and say they evolved out intelligence. What would they perceive?

>>18474349
Some say that the road to true "realization" so to speak is through introspection. Makes sense to me. If our view of the external world is flawed, than reject it. Shut down all perception and see what you find within yourself. This is a theme that is found in all kinds of philosophy and religion.

>>18474409
Its makes perfect sense. Most of our perception is guided through popculture, religion, environment, etc things that our out of our control and not really 'us'.
Even back then, when we regard as myth, was a religion, and their pop-culture was past religion, and so on so forth. Introspection frees us from the superficial reality that was set in motion way before we were us.

Have any of you guys ever noticed something changing inexplicably? For maybe a short period of time? Like a person becomes someone else and then reverts back to normal?

>>18474446
Either hormones, global internet connetivity, disinfo activity, or CERN firing up.
All throughout 2016. Shit feels really weird.

i feel like the music industry is lead by religious/occult symbolism in order to scew and confuse the perception of the masses so that subliminal information can be absorbed.

File: 1465285891042.jpg (203KB, 500x501px) Image search: [Google]

203KB, 500x501px

>>18474179
DUDE MAN
Our minds resolve external reality into easier to parse sense data.
Things I'm pretty damn sure about
>Photons exist and are zipping around
>Atoms exist and behave predictably
These are the things we humans are best at percieving and must exist in 3 dimensional space and perception is done over time.
I am also sure that
>LSD, Ketamine, and Benadryl experiences can be pretty damn convincing for arguing that photons and atoms are not be the whole means for experiencing reality
>Special relativity, general relativity, and quantum mechanics are unsatisfactory for understanding the nature of conscious life but have lots of convincing evidence where they have been probed.
All theories on why time is the way it is seem to be silly hand waving, however the pragmatic explaination of
>It's just how events seem to relate to each other in this universe (most of the time)
seems to suffice (most of the time)
The the effect of psychoactives (particularly deliriants) on the perception of time is unsettling.

>>18474446
Reality is revving up:
Weed is going to become legal in more and more places
There has been legal access to ridiculous drugs for years
We are probably due for a major spiritual event

Once a critical mass of people seen some shit the egg of civilization won't get un-scrambled.