Palo Mayombe & Selling of bones

>>18306600
>congo
I knew some people from there once, but we usually met in public so they never mentioned anything that would be unsavory. Though on the subject of religion in general there seemed to be an atmosphere of tension. Maybe I'm just autistic and it's not a casual topic for some, but I've always wondered if something unspeakable was in the back of their thoughts. Probably just reading into things.
>he has to consult the spirits to seek their approval as it is based on initiation and he cant freely say certain things.
Sounds intimidating. I don't mean to seem materialistic, but what's the pay off? Something this stringent I assume would have its reason in pursuing.

Hes not a Santero if he has an Nganga. Period.
The "bracelets" are eleke.
If you know the colors I could telll you who rules his head.
Hes only not talking because hes old fashioned, and probably his Tata or Yaya told him that.
The nganga is the cauldron of Zarabanda.
I hang out in /omg/.
Nice to meet you.
Gotta run.
Im in the Don Decker thread and gotta at some point get skme sleep.
Im too old for these late nights!

>>18306649

From my studying of the occult in general , and I am going to speak in strict layman terms as I dont claim to be an expert. When you perform a ritual you are manifesting into reality with your own energy or "ashe" as they call it. This is important to have and manifest but with the help of the spirits , they carry out the work for you. In return you would give them sacrifice and offerings , and give them things that are pleasing to them because in essence they are gaining energy from these things , so its a kind of trade off.

The thing that makes Palo Mayombe more of a dark nature is that you are literally binding a deceased spirit and making it do your will.

There is what is called a christian "prenda" , which you place a cross within the cauldron , if the deceased person was religious in a previous life and it would kind of keep him there.

Then you the more dangerous kind of sorts which is called a jewish "prenda" and is used for more darker work as it does not have this barrier of protection and has to be more taken care of.

I am talking very loosely and this information I am saying is relatively avalaible but most of it is in spanish but I am a native speaker.

>>18306693
THIS.
All of this.

>>18306688

I do know he has orishas in his house , and he does have a prenda in his closet , as for if he is crowned or not I dont know but pretty sure he is.

And his eleke is green and yellow as you called it.

He says he is going to get a siete rayamiento or is in the process of it , but like I said I am a novice with the information so I dont exactly know what that even means , as I would assume im not suppouse to know.

>>18306698
I am also the OP of the thread btw lol

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>>18306701
Orunmila/Orula rules his head
He is going to be a diviner - read the shells for future initiates.
That tells the future, answers questions, tells them who rules their head, and so on.
And he is just like, come join buuut I cant tell you anything. What a tease.

>>18306708
Ask him about Zarabanda the Blacksmith.
If hes still sticking with his story that hes a Santero, he will call him Oggoun.
Does have alot of sticks or wallkng sticks?
Maybe in a corner somewhere?
Maybe with a bowl nearby?

>>18306740
Okay you seem to know your stuff. I wont be too long winded as you said you are going to be gone soon.. but I have a feeling my ancestors are calling out too me.

I remember a vivid image of a photograph my grandmother showed me of her mother , who appeared very african in features, and my gradmother tells me she was very fond of cigars , and something tells me that she was a palera.

I dont know if this is related but I use to have very vivid nightmares of a child of an old woman of african descent torturing me , and some people I have discussed about this all tell me more or less the same thing that , a muerto was sent after me or my mother most likely and I was caught in between ?

I have heard before that I had been blessed as a child before my mother turned to christianity later on , and my above friend told me it was probably la siete divisiones ? again I have no idea what that means , and instead of blessing maybe the person did the opposite or something just went out of whack idk.

Ever since they I have been able to see things , and see vivid colors , that I always just thought my eyes were messed up from watching too much t.vs but a santera told me I might just be seeing manifestations of spirits or divination and I just cant tell.

I have alot of questions and I feel this guy is probably my best bet to get a solid foot in the door.

>>18306750
I have read somewhere that you arent suppouse to be scratched if you are already crowned. So maybe the house he belongs to is slightly different , not saying its correct or anything or maybe i just misunderstood.

In his room he had an altar and he told me the orishas name i just dont remember , they were in a type of ceramic pot , and he also had dolls , it looked like a baby doll that was darkskinned and it had clothes on it , he did have a wooden african statue of a man holding a cane , and in his closet , he had a prenda , but I didnt get too close to it as I got a weird vibe from it.

He also told me something I havent heard before when I mentioned the christian , and jewish kind , he said there was a third kind which is the one he had , and he emphasized it being "the real deal" and the person who prepared it for him grinded the dust of a bone into it , might have other stuff inside idk thats just all he told me.

He was insightful on some times I asked him and interpreted my dreams in a way that made perfect sense without cold reading involved.

>>18306756
Is your family Kikongo or Yoruba?
Or you dont know?
Or other?
Im just curious.

Yeah if you want, go for it.
And yes, normally it costs A LOT for parts for a cauldron.
Like high-way robbery A LOT.
Everybody is gonna try to charge you an arm and a leg for something.
Dont let them over tax you.
If they start being shady or anything dont be scared to break away.

>>18306802
I am of Dominican Descent , both my parents come from the Dominican Republic , on my mothers side my aunts and uncles are of darker skin toned.

And when I had the memory of remembering that photograph of my great grandmother , that was picture I saw maybe once ... about 20 years ago , when I was 6. I am soon to be 27 , it like it was implanted inside my head by something.

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>>18306781
Uhn huh..the real deal.
Hes a Palero or wants to be one.
The dishes are where the Orishas feed.
The figurines or dolls represent the Orisha.
Their just flair.
A way of hiding in plain sight a reminder to yourself of what you are doing, and a coded message to others "Hey, this is my Orisha" or, "I recognize all of these Orisha." And so on.
If he's hiding that Nganga in his closet, he thinks he is being sneaky.
Be respectful to it.
Thats my papa Zarabando.
Hes supposed to keep him covered with a black cloth, unless he is feeding him.
Did you notice if he is keeping him covered?

>>18306821
Honestly it was really dark in that closet , and in a corner and was mostly fixed on the other more elaborate things , or I just for some reason didnt want to look at it out of respect or fear i dont know.

>>18306600
>ow do people practice it in the states
It is perfectly legal to purchase, own, and mail human bones in all but five states.

Bones ain't as expensive as you imply. Check ebay, and osteology warehouse.

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>>18306600
>I have an old coworker that I recently went to his house because I needed a reference letter from him and remembered he was a "santero" who practiced santeria , I remember he use to wear a type of beaded bracelet but never really asked him about it.

This writing is so awful it hurts my brain.

>>18307126
Theres a reason I warned him about highway robbery. ;)

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>>18307126
>Osteology Warehouse
>Real human skull. Click.
>$575.00
> Spits out coffee

On what planet is that affordable?!
Jesu Christ!
Thats more than my monthly mortgage.
The way you were talking, I was assuming $100 at the most.
Is this affordable tier for you?
Are you accepting petitions for adoption?

Just search an abandoned town with its own graveyard and make a weekend trip.

>>18307385
I have thought about this (new poster). I have a friend that has a family grave yard about 8 miles away but I'm just not sure yet. I would rather do it legally. That way I don't have to freak about it being in my house.

OP here , my friend was telling me stories about how people from cuba or puerto rico would freeze actual torsos and mail them. Kind of made me think if some of these people were actually killing people to sell these bones if they are in such high demand , was a scary thought.

>>18307354
From what Ive been studying , a spirit can also no longer reside with the bones , thats why the get them fresh from the graveyard and the sorts , I dont see how realiable a for occult porpouses that would be to buy one from really far away from some warehouse.

>>18308302
Nothing you just said about the bones is really making sense.
There is nothing I have ever heard that you cant get the bones from where ever you want.
If a spirit cant dwell with the bones, why even have the bones at all in the Nganga?
If a spirit cant dwell with the bones, then you dont need bones no matter how far away they came from.
Do you see how silly that sounds?
Please, Please, Please...dont ever say that silly excuse to anyone else ever again.

>>18308422
Maybe im explaining it wrong and I could be mistaken , but lets say like ..... there two sets of bones and one of them is already in a caldron , are you saying you can use the other set of bones across the country and the spirit would reside in two cauldrons ?

>>18308302
Anyway, if you want to use bones from Egypt, WHO CARES?!?
Guess what, no one fucking cares.
I just looked at my notes again.
And it says:
a human skull,
bones from the left hand
bones from the right hand
bones from the left leg
bones from the right leg, and so on.

No where does it say, bones from the left leg of a guy that lived in the same neighborhood as you.

I cant believe some one is telling people that...

>>18307354
They can run significantly cheaper depending on the market and ESPECIALLY compared to open auctions on ebay which climb over a grand. I've seen shit skulls go for over 1200 on auction and OW sell gr8 skulls for 400.

>>18308450
Do all those bones have to be of the paticular same person ? Or could they be varied , if they have to be of the same person it makes sense you confirming they are from the same person rather then someone telling you , they are from the same person and they could be mixed up.

You obviously know more then me on this matter and I am just stating what I have heard if you have heard different , I am open to hearing your overstanding of the situation. I want to get the accurate results.

And do you know any houses of Palo in NYC that you would recommend then ?

>>18308446
Lets say you make an Nganga to Zarabanda, and your neighbor makes an Nganga to Zarabanda.
So tell me.....which one doesnt work if they are both made the exact same way to the exact same standards?
Someone is pulling the wool over your eyes.
See thats what Im warning about is these shady people...wanna charge you $300 for a pick axe head and 2 rail road spikes and everyone just sits around and eats it up.

>>18308302
>Kind of made me think if some of these people were actually killing people to sell these bones if they are in such high demand , was a scary thought.
It's more likely someone in a morgue is finding bodies with no family attached or scientific or forensic interest and selling them for spare cash.

I don't mean to be macabre but thinking purely practically the fact is a lot of people die all the time, someone died right now for example, and not all of them are considered terribly important to the still living so I imagine someone who is desensitized from the nature of all that as a result of their occupation and lifestyle might see profiting from the misfortune as really no more tragic. In a way "donating" a body to occult practice is only so different from scientific purposes.

Saying that however there are cases, like with Albinos as the most common example, where waiting for a particular subject to die of natural causes is not up for discussion and an unfortunate accident occurs.

>>18308477
It's easy as fuck to rob a grave provided isolation, time, and equipment.

I mean, they ain't using them longbones anyhow.

>>18308468
No reason for them to be from the same person either.
The bones are only symbols.
The skull represents intelligence.

And, no Im sorry, I dont live in NYC. :(

>>18308487
And everything I have said mostly is from what I have heard from other people online , the guy I was talking in the original post didnt tell me any of this only the story about the cadavers , as I said I could tell he wasnt going to tell me certain things so I didnt bother to ask out of respect. He did tell me his cauldron cost him 1500 dollars , what it has inside , I dont know.

>>18308487
Hey Palochan....

If Quimbanda and Umbanda synchretized with witchcraft out of Macumba and Afro and Euro spiritist traditions, why in the blue fuck didn't that happen further north, specifically with Kanaima? Kanaima's perfectly poised to undergo the exact same shit but hasn't interacted save being the enemy of Aleluia.

>>18308492
Hold on brb.
I need a drink.
Im sorry I woke up angry and Ive been angry all day

>>18308504
Brb.

>>18308485
For some reason I feel body snatching would mark me more than selling or buying from a morgue.
Maybe because the bodies in the cooler are already taken in and out at the whim of the living so it's business as usual, but graves are intended as a final right and resting place.

Taking great effort to dig up and disturb that seems like it would catch up eventually.

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>>18308504
Okay Im back.
I had to go get my head on straight.
I have had such a messed up day today.
I went to sleep having dreams about a particular spirit and woke up 3 hours later exhausted and angry. My dogs are avoiding me. It appears I've chased my husband out of the house. Shit got real real quick. My eyes are all bleary and I cant focus them even now. I have my screen blown up like Im 80 and blind.

Anyway...yes, Ape...Kanaima I only know of this as a forest demon from Carib folk lore from the island of Vera Cruz.
Apparently, at some point this folk tale got to the main land. But, consider that didnt Columbus annihilate the Caribs within a very short time of landing on Vera Cruz?
Then, it was decided they still needed someone to haul all their important stuff, like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch for example. Also, they needed someone they could beat the shit out of - because, well they were sadists.
And, of course, West Africans fit the bill just fine.
So, they bring West Africa - like our friend>>18308492 Dominic here - straight over and start working him to death.
The WAs were animists and already had their own religion when they came.
Over the course of getting the shit beat out of them, they realized they had to hide some of their natural tendencies if they didnt want to be killed.
So, they started using symbols and codes.
They could still practice their original beliefs, but the Spanish wouldnt be any wiser, and maybe the WAs would get some small peace and comfort out of life.
So really, if the Caribs had not been killed off we would instead be seeing some form of Catholic/Kanaima sychretism instead of Catholic/ATM sychretism.
The original blend stayed on the islands as Vodou, Santeria, and Palo.

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>>18308730
As the Spanish moved inland, and took the WAs with them they encountered what was left of the Mayan and Carib and other tribes. Thats where we started getting some lf the more militant blends with Macumba, Quimbanda, Umbanda, and to some extent Condomble. That is why I call the inlander synchretists the Bastard Priests of Xipe.

Yes, I know Xipe Totec was Aztec.
But, the comparison came to me last year when we were laughing at Falxifer. I cant remember which part of the Left Handed Reaper caused me to come up with that.
(I still cant with that with that faux Cain - Qayin)

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>>18306781
Also, you asked about being scratched and crowned.
You can go from Santeria to Palo, but you cant go from Palo to Santeria - only because of the stigma that Santeros feel towards Paleros.
Thats probably what your friend is doing, because its a pretty easy transition from Santeria to Palo.
If hes crowned with Orunmila, I would at least get a Tablet of Ifa (Ipon Ifa I believe is the term) and the training before he gets scratched.
Theres no reason to waste a good opportunity.

>>18308802
On a different note , Ive been wondering if you have heard the uproar on youtube of E.A Koeting claiming to going to break his oaths and reveal Hatian Voudon Secrets.

A haitian Bokor on youtube has been responding frequently to these claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV7_3axcY8c&t=168s

heyyyy palo and vodoun and ATR, good shit, good to see Palo and AoT in here. This is the other rootworker/atr that pops into /omg/, this has been a great thread thanks everyone.

>>18308927
>E.A Koeting claiming....
E.A. Koeting knows shit about this... his comments abotu vodoun and being "fully possesed by a Vodoun God for life." Show a fundamental misunderstanding of these traditions. If Koeting has been given an ason, or any kind of title within vodoun, voodoo, or any other ATR, Id be shocked. Dude is a huckster.

>a haitian bokor responding...
god Leonard is such a fucking blowhard. It's like his entire existence is just one long "no true scotsman" fallacy. I dont know how he thinks he can speak for all vodouisant, all haitians, all black people or really, fucking anyone. There are a number of traditional hatian sosyete with white folk in them, either just part of the congregation, or in leadership positions, there are white mambos and white houngans. I dont know what "true vodoun" hes refusing to teach but he can have it. Just saying that its "true vodoun", in my opinion betrays that it's nothing of the sort.

protip for all the little witches and warlocks in the audience. If your teacher/master/whatever is constantly having to prove how powerful and "real" they are with tough talk and exclusionary elitism, just walk away. Leonard and Koeting are cut from the same arrogant try-hard cloth.

/omg/ has some extremely serious practitioners and Ive met many in real life (and by serious I mean: keeping dead people in pots in the closet, and drinking poison to call on the powers of infernal dragon gods and shit), and they are usually polite, helpful, knowledgeable and erudite people who are lovely to be around.

Fuck these tryhards.

>>18309112
Thank you for replying , I am seriously interested in learning more but in NYC as probably other parts there are alot of scam artists and dont want to have my time wasted.

I am starting a new job on the 14th of this month so dont have money at the moment but when I get paid I plan on getting a consultation from direction of my friend which I know isnt going to get me scammed , he actually taught me my real world trade as a handyman and is a good person. He also has various godchildren which I have met that were there in his home.

I want to ask a question , is it possible to be naturally inclined for divination ? I have been having dreams of things that seem to come true , even lottery numbers came out of the WIN 4 , (ironically i played them in the wrong order but the numbers did come out lol) and I always encounter synchronicity in many things without actively seeking.

Anything you can suggest for me to follow this path seriously ?

>>18309136
>I want to ask a question , is it possible to be naturally inclined for divination ?
Yes. Just as its possible to be naturally inclined towards carpentry, sumo wrestling or oil painting.

> I always encounter synchronicity in many things without actively seeking.
Divination is sort of a specialty of mine, (I trip over on /div/)... you are bordering on a dangerous trap for people who have studied a lot of divination, or are very naturally gifted. You can see synchronicity everywhere all the time, and drive yourself completely batshit. You've got to learn the skill of how to turn it on and off, or you very seriously run the risk of going insane. Im not talking cutesy eccentric kind of nutty with tea leaves "insane" I mean "incapable of discerning reality from fantasy, talking to walls, and screaming instead of sleeping" straight up fucking crazy.

There's synchronicity and coincidence in everything all the time, because thats just how reality works, but if you're trying to divine off of all the random noise and coincidence 24/7 youll fuck yourself up. Learn to create a divinatory "space" or "time" where you pay attention and listen, or chose only certain signs to read (even if others are present), this will help you keep your head.

>Anything you can suggest for me to follow this path seriously ?
Well, frankly a lot. Im not sure what you want to do though, what exactly are you looking for advice on?

>>18309185
Very insightful thank you. What would be a good starting point and I am particular interested in contacting my ancestors and doing rootwork , and overall better improving my life and potentially others lives aswell.

I have access to a santero and palero but do not want to limit my knowledge and want to be able to cross reference things.

>>18309204
>good starting point
Poetry, shitloads and shitloads of poetry. Understand simile, and metaphor, DEEPLY. Pick apart movies and song lyrics and anything with poetic content, eat up surrealism and abstract art. This is the bread and butter of divination in my opinion. Youll need to understand the concepts of metaphor, allegory and simile, and youll need to suck down as much symbolism and myth as you can.

If something is on the left side of something else, does that have meaning to you? It should. Does something being a certain color have meaning to you? symbolism of directions, colors, sounds, letters, animals, shapes, everything has it's place. It is directly influenced by, and influential on the occult because they share this knowledge.

Youll probably want to pick a method(s) that resonates with you, cards, astrology, dice, sortelage, and then pursue all the symbolism in the system, developing skills with the system is a long process and just takes lots of practice and some innate skill.

I could advise you better if I knew what kind of divinatory techniques you were interested in.

(will continue with rootworking advice)

>>18309227
doing rootwork, or ancestral work, is an entirely different kettle of fish, the practices can be related, and usually are, but theyre an entirely different subject, probably better handled over on /omg/ I would tell you that if you want to get into traditional rootworking and workign with ancestral spirits or any ATR traditions, theres going to be an adjustment period where you move from "worship" to "service" and in this process your viewpoints on helping others is going to change, this is natural in my experience.

having access to a Santero or Palero is good, and it may give you access to certain methodologies which are otherwise hard to get, diloggun and ifa traditions are closely guarded, and may be an interesting thing for you to learn (if youre permitted). I would encourage you to keep that open and eclectic mind though and keep searching, information can be had and retained theres no reason to shut yourself off from new techniques, or different cultures to enrich your practice.

>>18309227
Well me personally I feel maybe cards would be able to give me the most insight , 21 divisiones (Dominican Vudu) uses cards and is my native heritage and I feel I might be able to learn better and easier by using them on myself . However I am starting to get an inclination I want to work more with the dead and leaning more towards Palo and I remember having a brief conversation with my friend and he told me that involves using bones.

Mirrors and scrying has also crossed my mind , as I feel I want to gain further knowledge for myself rather then those of other people and dont intend to actually make money off any of this rather just increase my competence and see if I infact do have an enact gift in it. But I do feel a strong calling to do this type of work , pretty adept at lucid dreaming and I dont know if you read earlier before I do see "colors" vividly but dont exactly know what I am looking at and my brain just learned to tune it out.

>>18309254
>21 divisiones
Im passingly familiar with 21 divisiones, I believe they commonly use standard playing cards in their leson don't they? There's a ton of resources on reading playing cards, online, books, all over. You may want to adapt or learn some victorian techniques, american hoodoo techniques, or roma card reading, all of whom used playing cards.

Either way, almost any ATR or Diasporic religion is going to involve working with the ancestors. Its just part of the traditions. Palo get's a little more "hands on" with the dead than others, there's neither anything good or bad about this, its just palos traditions. I myself read bones and curio (if thats not enough to give away my trip nothing will be), and I can advise more on how I feel about that practice, if it's something that interests you.

If ancestral work is important to you, it can become a part of any divination method you use, its simply a matter of workign with the ancestors with that system.

If you're seeing colors, inclined towards ancestral work, scrying and mirror type stuff, you may want to work with something a little less "tangible" than cards or dice... some mediumship or more shamanic methods may be of interest to you. You may want to look into some of the curandero or other "shamanic" paths and techniques, they may speak to you.

I think you may be a good candidate for bone and curio style stuff like I do, provided you're willing to put the time into constructing and working with it. You may also legitimately have a gift for aura work, or using the color in some other way, wish i could advise more on that, but that isnt one of my gifts.

watchign thei E.A. koeting "seminar" on the "forbidden rituals of hatian vodoun" and laughing my ass off... how can I take this shit seriously when hes not even pronouncing the words properly?

>vodoun
VO-DON
>Candomble
>can-dom-bull
>"voodoo has been white washes and contains little of the original practices"
>proceeds to glaze over Palo entirely

holy shit.

Don't buy or use bones unless you have a friend that has willingly offered them to you.

In the off chance that the spirit does not approve of the bones being used in a ritual, they will bring bad luck.

Human skulls hold a lot of residual energy as well and are usually bad to work with and bring the most misfortune. No skulls unless they are animal skulls.

>>18309343
opinion noted, gb2 reddit

>>18309293
You are very helpful , and to better describe what I am seeing as I am seeing it now and focusing more on it , It is currently like a filter of dust that moves organically , i also see sprinkles of black pass through my eyes even as I am writing this , its not excessive that it blocks my vision but it is there. And it is more prominent in total darkness.

I have gone to the eye doctor various times in my life and have asked them about this and they dont see anything out of the ordinary wrong with my vision , I do wear glasses but nothing that could be causing this . it is mostly written off as I watched too much T.V as a kid which doesnt really sit well with me.

On a side note , when I was younger the colors were severely more vivid , as in blotches , and something told me to look at my pictures ... this is where my syncronicty comes in and in alot of my childhood pictures the same kind of "blotches" of color are in the picture . I have 2 sets of pictures of me being born and of the age of around 5 , so I have ruled out a defect in the camera film role because they were two different rolls of film.

Only physical manifestion of an entity I have ever seen occured more then once and it was an entity that use to haunt my dreams every night. I had to learn how to control my dreams due to this in order to get away and fight it off and it eventually went away but the gift of me being aware of my dreams is ever prevelant and most of the time I see dreams in third person , as a viewer. And any malignant dream I do have isnt actually affecting but is more like a story that is being played out.

>>18309365
>like a filter of dust that moves organically , i also see sprinkles of black
You have eye prob...
>they dont see anything out of the ordinary wrong with my vision
nevermind...

ok again, I wish I knew more about this particular phenomenon to help, but I really don't. All I can advise is a little scientific and deductive reasoning look for patterns in the color, like, when and why do they appear, around people, around things, in situations? Keep track of it, and start writing it all down for yourself.

>>18309421
They are I beleive mostly centralized in rooms or where alot of people congregate . As for example If I am in open street , woods or place , I wont see anything. A more confined space presents itself it is more visible , when I am completely alone it is more of a bombardment. If I pay close attention , I could make out images and shapes but I think that would be more of my mind trying to see faces out of nothing etc , or I could be wrong but I try to think logically about something first rather then run with whatever I think I see.

I think maybe using a mirror of some kind might give me more clarity , thats just my gut feeling.

>>18309463
>thats just my gut feeling.
follow it, it's not just your gut, it's your blood, and your blood isn't just your blood, it's your ancestors.

If youre feeling a pull, there is a reason.

I still advise keeping notes and trying to get it all organized. Who knows, maybe youll found a new school of divinatory technique if you keep good enough notes and enough people identify.

>>18309471
Im going to attempt to do a candle scrying right now , ill post my results.

Well , I light a white candle and made my backround image of my computer completely black.

Looking at the flame at first then focusing on the darkness , till I finally just focusing on the darkness with the candle reflecting back on the image. I saw a large eye , similar to an owl or a giant octupus , It moved around around the screen , I then asked to revealed itself. Large Eye faded too reveal to smaller pupils as something staring back at me.. I then looked in the center what I can only describe as seeing a veiled woman with the face of a skull , kind of santa muerte'ish.

So basically something just staring right back at me as I was staring at it. The eye was approximately 4 inches in circumference and appeared more animalistic than human. Center image made out the image of veiled humanoid .. which I can only make out too be open eye sockets. In my perifial vison , I could see smaller pupils staring back at me.

so Im staring at something and its staring right back at me , thats all I got lol.

>>18309564
>Well , I light a white candle and made my backround image of my computer completely black.
Ok well first off, Im not even sure why this worked, a black computer monitor is not the same as black velvet, if this worked at all I cant imagine what youd do with the proper set up.

>veiled woman with the face of a skull , kind of santa muerte'ish.
Santisima Muerte is known for communicating directly with those she wishes to serve her, and she is currently a very influential lady. I wouldnt write-off the possibility shes speaking to you.

Also generally if you get a positive result like this, you might want to do or say something like "sup?" or "santisima muerte most holy death, i thank you for your presence and ask humbly how I may be of service to you, mi hermosa mujer" or even just ask a question or whatever.

The fact that you got that to work with a black computer screen is cool, try it with actual black cloth.

>>18309586
Tried it again with what you suggested , didnt particular see any skull visage , this time i played some singing bowl music int the backround to get more into a trance state.

This time I predominately saw red and my face morphed into I would say ghoulish imagery but I was not frighten , it was more subtle then outright ghhastly,

I would look into the flame more then look at the screen , I saw an eye but no pupil with a white ring around it , I want to say it looked more like crescent moon.

The whol time I was asking for santa muerte I asked to reveal herself , or anything else. When I asked this something straight happend , a white mist like a fog appeared at the bottom of the screen.

I saw my own reflection back at me and my upper brow and eyes were bright red with my brow more pronouced , almost like a visage of a dog , kind of like a rotweiler.

As side note my cursor had disappeared and my hands were on my lap , then the cursor appeared agan and shifted slightly right , as if something slightly moved my mouse. My dogs also started moving around all about.

It could of appeared frightening to most but I didnt get an inkling of fear , the white midst foggy part was kind of weird , didnt expect to see that shade as white isnt sometihng that normally manifest too me . and let alone on a black screen. It started in the middle and spread out.

>>18309722
I apologize for my spelling and errors , I am typing kind of fast.

>>18309722
>didnt expect to see that shade as white isnt sometihng that normally manifest too me . and let alone on a black screen. It started in the middle and spread out.

Ooh success, congratulations. This is actually very very normal for scrying techniques like crystal balls or black mirrors. The fog probably shook you a little bit, but it's actually one of the first hurdles for people scrying balls and mirrors, its normal, let it develop, and keep staring through it until stuff comes out of the fog.

I know this sounds like harry potter tier crazy shit, but I swear Im telling the truth, this is normal, and a good sign that youre making progress with it, not everyone can do that.

>>18309756
Good to know , Ive been watching video or two of santa muerte and realized an owl is one of her symbols ? and putting two and two together the eye did appear to be kind of like an owls eye and may have seen a brief owl but nothing to clear so i brushed it off , ill stop brushing things off. And I have been inclined to work with the dead so maybe this has something to do with that. I will try again and take heed to the advice you have given me.

While I was staring into the flame I asked the flame to give me its energy and manifest my sight , kind of like to absorb its "ashe" into my own. The flame split into two for a brief few seconds then I began.

Lets see If I get something more noteworthy this time around.

>>18309756
I can see the white midst more promiently now , on the borders , then it appeared halfway almost like a river , and towards the end it appeared as it part of my screen was "melting" and dripping down. I touched my computer screen to actually see if it wasnt actually melting , looked like black plastic dripping.

Does this mean anything in particular ?
Does this mean anything ?

>>18309870
honestly I have no idea, thats going to be up to you to interpret, and thats kind of where we separate people listening to crazy hallucinations and voices, from diviners.

I dont see a meaning behind a melting screen, but you might.

Youre on the right path, just keep pursuing it, and dont get too lost in the symbols and signs.

>>18309227
>If something is on the left side of something else, does that have meaning to you? It should.

This. Getting ready to go to my 9 to 5 right now as a paid Art hag.

>>18306600

Spirit Feeding. According to online research they buy bones from china, since its harder in the us than other countries to rob bones, its a whole lot of digging.

>>18306688
Santeros consider the palo mayombe religion to be the most regressive of all religions. Their practitioners living in shanty towns and ghettos. Religious outcasts.

The funny thing is that a lot of Cubans accuse santeria of not having cuban origin at all. Since Cuba was host to a mass racial cleansing and the white and mixed native cubans and elites wanted nothing to do with it. They say its something the early Haitian immigrants brought with them and evolved from there as a means of holding onto their african culture. They even added chinese rituals.

R9k

>>18310287
And then they also say that africans added european predominantly roman priestly rituals. Some of their rituals were said to be practiced by the catholic priests, the killing of chicken or doves. The dove ritual is where the priests would get two white doves and kill one and let the other fly. This is the thought that rules over the context of law. The two birds represent people who are seen as pure and unblemished. But you have to kill one, whether innocent or guilty, as chosen by the the powers that be, to be the bearer of sins. Its blood must fall on the ground. The other one whether guilty or innocent is allowed liberty.

>>18310297
Africans couldnt do much as they lived in a religious society where people listened to some of the wickedest priests that ever lived. They couldnt say anything to the white man. Nor defend themselves from them. The best they could do was create a religion based on the four natures/directions opposing themselves full of the cultures surrounding them. With flow charts of emotions and their governing deities. Those africans witnessed everything as outsiders.

>>18306693
Christian palo or jewish palo differ in mode. These are technically fetishes that are to, for lack of a better term 'assimilate' and house the spiritual head of the person summoned. According to rule of thumbs christians are religiously oppressed and governed by the cross. It is their conscience. They live with dogmas and rules. The Jewish means non religious, living by no dogma and surrounded by no religious oppression. No bounds. So the route of the practitioner must be different and its more nitty gritty. The name is due to a historical pov that catholics considered many merchants travelling back and forth between spheres of influence to be jewish, as they lacked religious creeds as it was punishable in foreign courts. So they became rather legal in creed and worked according to the laws of the land they were working on. However, they spent a long time at sea, where there was no law. This name comes from their perspective of the history of jesus. Jesus being a priest who was murdered for his religious conscience, dogma and orthodoxy. His accusers had no conscience, dogma nor were they orthodox but were legal and needed money for their trades. They scrutinized the natives for their birth right. So in the court of law this souls nativity and immaculate conception was looked down on and is still contested. If mary bore him without a father, thats something animals do. And his nativity came from her.

>>18310345
Then comes the thought of conquest. Should we attack the smaller or the bigger one. They attacked the bigger pagan tribes to the point of genocide. How did they do this? They all did their rites different and suffered for different things and ideals as was their old custom. And the smaller non native sects were given power over them in the courts because of their proximity and the people they represented. Ultimately Rome saw their two faces. They wanted to establish a foreign law using roman law.

Technically most people who follow these paths dont believe in the abrahamic faiths. They are a consortium of legal vandalism as they hide behind a God because they lacked the sight to see the majesty and natural laws of life.

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Ok so I notices y'all talking about reading bones. This has always been a great interest of mine but can't seem to find much info on the subject when it comes to practicality. I was just wondering if someone could nudge me in the right direction here. Not asking for a lesson or a spoon feed. Just a book title or a name of a tradition. I have always felt a calling towards this kind of thing. I live in the woods and have always kept bones around me. They have always held a magical property to me. I would always make things out of them etc. My dad hunted a lot so death was kind of a normal thing around the house. Deer bones all throughout the yard. All kinds of stuff. I would really appreciate a helping hand.

>>18310460
ok this is going to be a book, but Ive never said some of this stuff, even in /div/ and this thread seems to be a good place.

>reading bones
Since this is becoming /div/ related I thought I would trip up for the moment since it's relevant. Usually this sort of question would better belong in /div/ but since its a thread about palo, santeria and ATR, there's some relevant things that can be said.

First off, know that there are multiple traditions of bone reading most of which fall under the classification of cleromancy, or sortilege. The chinese use a system of plastromancy or scapulomancy which does not fall under these categories.

There is very little practical information because for starters, the practice is NOT practical. If you want a practical system, reading dice or playing cards are cost effective, simple and practical techniques. Secondly the lack of information comes from the fact that the traditions are either highly guarded, nearly extinct, or do not translate into a simple system.

From my perspective you also need a certain degree of respect for both the materials and traditions.

This is where I come to talking about Palo. Much like Palo, the reading of bones has a very visceral, and powerful element which may be uncomfortable for some, namely, dead stuff. There is something inherently powerful and raw to the human mind of a bag, or a pot full of earthly remains.

If you are coming to Palo (or any ATR, or bone reading) because it looks cool and primal and visceral or 'witchy', at best you are going to be wasting your time and at worst you are in for a very bad time, I would advise a change in course and an honest assessment of why you are interested.

(cont...)

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>>18310661
Understand that many of these techniques (or religions) are coming from a fundamentally different world view than that shared by most of the modern western world. If you are not comfortable doing your research and understanding these cultures and traditions, you are wasting your time. If you are not interested in standing up for and being a positive spokesperson and representative for these traditions, youre wasting my time, and people like Palos time.

I dont mean this as a warning or an exclusionary thing, I am saying it by way of explaining why the information is hard to come across. These systems, practices, and beliefs deserve respect and practitioners who know their shit, because....

The other problem with reading bones is that most "systems" have been lost. They are gone in the historical record and have had to be recreated or interpreted. If you are not committed to the historical background of these systems, you are doing them a disservice.

Know your material, do your research, be a historian and a good spokesperson, or learn a different system. Otherwise we risk the obliteration of these traditions, ATR, Palo, Bone Reading, etc.

I want everyone to have access to everything and for these traditions to be well understood, but at the moment, there's so many people interested in "creepy bones", "voodoo dolls" and "spooky prendas", and they will kill these traditions without some study and respect.

/rant

In the case of bone reading this is doubly important because unless you're a siberian steppe nomad, or zulu, your access to these systems is going to be limited, you are going to be reading, a lot.

Ok, now on to the nitty gritty if youre a diviner or interested in bone reading, this is what you sat through the lecture for.

(cont...)

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>>18310693
A lot of americans (especially southerners) think of cat bone, possum bone, or racoon bone reading when they think of bone reading. This is a system usually referred to as "hoodoo bones". Understand that this practice, as it is classically known, has been lost. It's techniques were not passed down, and modern hoodoo bone readers are re-assembling and re-creating the practice. All we know of this system as it was practiced traditionally, is that a collection of bones, sometimes marked, sometimes not, was thrown on the ground, inside an inscribed circle on the ground and then interpreted. This is literally all we know for sure. We can conjecture much from these details, and looking at other sortilege systems, but the "true" practice, is lost. We do what we can with what weve got, it's hoodoo afterall. But this kind of thing serves as stark reminder why this shit is important, when human knowledge dies, we all suffer, so approach it with some respect.

The origin of these techniques is *probably* south african by way of the sangoma, but it was probably influenced by taino, native american, and european occult practices along the way to the swamp.

Modern recreation bares a striking resemblance to ogham techniques and uses similar systems of interpretation based on the positioning of the bones and their markings.

Another technique which is called astragalomancy has been used in the ancient Greek, Roman, and Mongolian empires, and involves the knucklebones of (usually) sheep. These form a nice shape which act sufficiently as dice. The numbers associated with the faces are then interpreted in a predictable manner. This was probably passed down through the ages, it may be the origins of astragalomantic practices with modern dice, in the modern Mediterranean, notably by the roma and the stregha. It's still a game in the shagai plateau of Mongolia.

(cont...)

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>>18310721
and now the one that's most important to me personally, and my techniques. I mentioned them earlier, but the Sangoma of the Zulu have a practice named after them "sangoma" in which a collection (usually a large assortment) of bones, shells, and curio, is cast out either onto the ground, or onto an animal skin (goat usually). The bones each have an individual meaning to that particular sangoma, and their position, orientation, relation to one another and the shape of the whole cast is then interpreted.

I should state that I practice a bone and curio reading which is inspired by sangoma, I am not an initiated sangoma, and do not claim to speak for them, or their traditions, though I do what I can to keep my technique and practice as close to what I know as I can.

This type of reading is a much more complicated, intricate, and individual thing. It can take years, decades, to build up a large set of bone and curio. It should take awhile, or you are probably rushing the process. The downside to this, obviously, is that it takes a great deal of time, practice, searching, and personal work. The upside is, your bones have such powerful connection to your own life experience that everyone is like a trusted friend, and you know ecery shade and nuance of its meaning in a way that in my opinion is impossible with "established" methods of divination.

I could teach this methodology, and plan to eventually, but it's not a task to be undertaken lightly because its a lot of work, it should be done in person, and it probably shouldn't be undertaken by someone with no prior divinatory experience.

These sangoma traditions are *very* old, and they may even be pre-human. The practice of using bones for divinatory and magical purpose is extremely old and a very 'root' thing to human beings. Modern culture gets squeamish or weird when the bones come out, and if its not their tradition thats fine, but it deserves some respect.

>>18310734
I've given you a bunch of search terms and subjects to look into if youre serious about continuing looking into bone reading.

Unfortunately I cant really recommend a lot of books, there's not much out there and what I know Ive gleaned from snips and pieces online, and in various books.

For the hoodoo bone traditions, "Throwing the Bones" by Cat Yronwode and "Bones Shells and Curios" by Michelle Jackson may be good places to start, but I would caution you to remember that these are recreationist methods and should be taken with a grain of salt.

There are a few books of a more anthropological bent regarding the sangoma, and there may be some information in Hyatts or Hurstons work regarding reading the bones.

In my opinion, bone reading should be a developing relationship with a complex cast of characters in your set, there are certain rules followed by the sangoma which I stick to, and certain ethics that should be followed. Its understandable why theres little information, its a very individual path and is extremely difficult to teach, given that each bone set is going to be unique.

Ive derailed the palo thread long enough but I felt that the information had some morals and cultural information relevant to Palo. In short, these systems are the way they are for a reason, and judging them from an outside perspective is usually a very flawed approach, come at them with respect, discipline, reverence and honesty and they will speak, anything less and youll be shown the door.

>>18310756
Never used a tripcode before. Tried to follow the FAQ so hope I did It right. Anyway. Thank you so much for your response! It was very detailed and honest. I understand the lecture at the beginning and I assure you that I won't trample on any cultural systems and do my part to understand the people. I have done this before in regards to a few subjects in the past. I am a heavy reader and love the search that comes with a path of letters. I'm actually from north Mississippi and have heard tell of cat bones (nothing in reference to divination but just that they're magical) but to hear that opossum and racoon bones being used really intrigues me. Thank you so much for the books and the keywords. I'm sure they will be sufficient to the quest for now. As for you mentioning that this is really a /div/ question; well I did ask. A few times actually in the past year in a half but couldn't get a response. I guess I wasn't in the right threads. Ha ha. I figured someone would know something in this one. I guess I lucked out. Like I said, I used a trip for the first time that way after I've done some research I wouldn't mind making a thread or reaching out again in the future to show what I've learned and maybe glean further information from you or show things to others. I can't express the appreciation to have gotten this much info so quickly. I swear to be patient

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Around thentime that Southern USA black slaves were inventing the banjo as a nod to the ngoni and other siimlar instruments they were also learning to play the bones from the Scoth Irish and the Melungions.
This practice was dying until one man who lives in the same city as me began teaching it.
He is now considered the only living EXPERT on this musical practice.
Here is his first student Don Flemmons of the Carolina Chocolate Drops playing the bones. Ive seen Don demonstrate this in public and he is VERY GOOD.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iMokBr9cTxM

>>18311290
Wow that's really neat. Just watched the vid and another as well. I'm definitely going out the father in laws cow graveyard and grabbing some ribs to try this out. Very cool. Never heard of this before now.

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>>18309112
>"fully possesed by a Vodoun God for life.
This is a joke, right?
Who refers to them self in the third person?
For instance, there is no way in hell....let's saaaaay...Chango is going to say "I am being possesed by Chango 24/7 for life."
No, he would just say "Im here."
Thats the easiest way to tell Kotting is a liar.

>>18309329
>can-dom-bull
Did he have a Freudian slip?
The only Con-Dum-Bull I see, is the one he would be teaching.

>>18310274
>they buy bones from china
I can neither confirm nor deny that bones can be bought from China here: https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/real-human-skeleton-for-sale.html
However, I do know it illegal to purchase or ship bones in the states of Tennessee and Georgia.

>>18310287
>Religious outcasts.
And this is a bad thing wwwwhhhy?

Monday is ruled by Ellegua/Eshu/Exu/Legba/Lucero
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cusO81dkRk4

In no way do I believe any of the dancers in Brazil were actually being Ridden here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3kZpbxc188M

But compare the use of the skirts in the dances to the Egungun/Egoungoun (Ancestors/Ancestral Spirits) dancers here at 11:31:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb1TngCu0gc

These traditional channelers are from Benin, the country that is considered the Birthplace of Vodou.

Trying to pack more per post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIiK1GX9WBI

>>18311282
>have heard tell of cat bones (nothing in reference to divination but just that they're magical) but to hear that opossum and racoon bones being used really intrigues me.
when cat bones are referenced in magic, theyre talking about the somewhat mythical and legendary black cat bone. I wont go into details on the process of making and acquiring these, but suffice to say they are not generally used in divination. The cat bones used in divination are also from a black cat, but the methods of obtainment and usage are different.

Possum and racoon bones are USUALLY the baculum, or colloquially the "dong bone", if youre from Mississippi you've probably heard reference to "coon dongs", thats what were talking about there.

It should also be noted some people use chicken bones, but this seems to be a newer phenomenon and a somewhat temporary one since its usually cooked bones, which are brittle and not really a long term investment.

> I guess I wasn't in the right threads
Right thread, wrong time.

>reaching out again in the future to show what I've learned and maybe glean further information
Throw up a temp e-mail and Ill send you a little letter, that way youll have my practice contact and can reach me when you like. Id be happy to work with you.

>>18311469
>easiest way
I think there's even easier but yeah that's stupid.
>Freudian slip?
I know I fucking cringed.

>Monday is ruled by Ellegua/Eshu/Exu/Legba/Lucero
Not correcting you, but I did want to note since there's a lot of people in this thread that dont have a working background in these traditions... While these spirits may look very similar, and may even be the same spirit, do NOT mix their rites, do not call on Legba with rites to Ellegua, you're asking for trouble. It may be the same spirit, but use the appropriate practices for the appropriate name, they are not interchangeable.

>Toque de Palo pa' Lucero
I have to be careful with that music on, why Palo such based drums? Thanks for the link.

>>18311819
We just work a little different you and I.
Ive mixed it up at times with no Exus. ;)

But, your concern IS noted for future reference.

>>18311846
Just repeating what I have heard from various babalawos/santeros/mambos... I suppose Palo might look at it a bit differently. And as always, working slightly differently and still recognizing eachothers practice is what this shit is all about. A ta salud!

>>18311819
Cool. Thanks for the offer. Jardsoten64@gmail.
>coon dongs
Haha naw I've only heard them called mountain mans toothpicks. Ive seen old dudes get them(coon dongs) and file the tip to a point so that they can have a semi-perm toothpick. None of my people though. Also the black cat bone I have read about in the grimorium verum actually. I don't know if they were talking about that one or not but maybe.

>>18312133
mail sent.
Yeah the reference to the black cat bone in GV has to do with some older grimoires and probably made its way into hoodoo/vodoun via french occultists in haiti.

>>18312197
Hmm what older grimoires? I'll probably wanna check those out for reference at the very least.

>>18312276
The Grand Grimoire and The Bernardakean Magical Codex

>>18312347
Ok I own and have read the grand grimoire. Need to go grab it from the barn. Haven't read it in a while and that slipped my mind compeletly. The Bernardakean magical codex doesn't ring bells at all so I'll have to check that out eventually.

Friendly bump.

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>>18313317
Thanks. :)

Now a day that is near and dear to my heart.

Tuesday is ruled by Zarabanda.
He is the spirit that presides over minerals (particulary Iron) and tools. He was the first Blacksmith. He also rules over the mysteries of the forest, and can instruct the user on various herbs and plants.

Zarabanda is similar to Oggoun, Ogun, Ogou, Ogum, Gu, Tobe Ode, and Onire.

Some stories say that Zarabanda was the first Orisha that ever visited Earth. He brought his great black dog with him. Together they cleared the trails in the forests and searched for a suitable place for human life to be created. He carried with him a great machete of Iron.

Zarabanda is the older brother of Lucero.
Together, the are 2 of the 3 Spirits that are commonly referred to as "The Warriors".
The Warriors are the 3 sons of Tiemba Tierra and Madre Aqua. There are some pretty scandolous stoires about Zarabanda's relationship with his parents. We'll get into that later.

Zarabanda is a very complicated spirit.
He is the diety of war. At the same time, so many modern tools used in surgery are made of metal that he is also considered a patron of Doctors and Surgeons. As the first Blacksmith, and a tireless creator of new, unique, and useful tools, he is also considered the patron of Artists and Craftsmen.

When leaving offerings to Zarabanda, he will eat many of the same foods as Lucero. But, he will not accept the candies that Lucero loves. He can also be offered dog meat in honor of his great black hound, Blacksnake, Catfish, Alligator pepper, Kola nuts, Palm wine, Palm oil, small Rats, black Roosters, Salt, Snails, Turtle meat, and Yams.
When animals are sacrificed, he prefers to only eat male animals.

Zarabandas colors are green, black, and coral. Some traditions also include Navy Blue.

When you go to war, call on Zarabanda.
He may also be petitioned for: finding a new job, auto and mechanical repairs, to cause or prevent accidents, or to cause or remove obstacles in life.

>>18314039
I would like to read more into this. You got any general reading for interest? Like a good overall history or myth collection.

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>>18314081
Try this:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/index.htm
The myths will be West African.

This page is suggested for info on one of the North American ATR flavors:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/santeri.htm

That will at least get you started.