What goes around...

Real judgement occurs after you die

It comes subtly. Someone who is hateful of other people for instance will essentially boil in their own hatred and slowly kill themselves from the inside.

>>18110219
From where?

>>18110221

Christian fiction

It's true. YOu just have to be observant. Also a lot of people are great actors... or their assholeness appears negative karma to you but in the scope of things it is neutral or positive.

Your interpretation of someone doesn't set their karma.

A few years ago I decided to believe in karma, basically to just be a good person. Treat others as I would want to be.
My life has never been better. Happy healthy and weathy.

>>18110221
from yourself

>>18110226
>tips fedora
>nods in your direction

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in Buddhism, karma means intentional actions that shape our own lives. for example, if you start using drugs, you will probably become an addict. the initial action, taking drugs, initiated a sequence of consequences that alter your own life quality. The past actions condition the present action, so if you use drugs, you will be more inclined to use again. Past actions we have made, all throughout our lives, have been subtly shifting our lives all the while. For example, pick an age at least ten years ago, think of where you were then, your life situation, and how very minute intentions and actions shaped your life over time. Things aren't random or accidental; we are the result of our thoughts and actions. So once you grasp the principle that intentional actions alter our own lives, you can determine your quality of life into the future. Do you want to suffer more? Then keep doing what you're doing - and worse. Do you want to suffer less? Make the necessary steps to reach that point. This general concept in Buddhism is then extended to continue after death into the next life, but the main meaning concerns this life here and now, how our thoughts and actions shape our own lives.

If you think of karma this way, there's no question about its reality. Unfortunately people tend to think karma means an action that has a boomerang-like effect, like if you insult your friend and he's hurt by it, then at any random time in future you may get cancer. This is an irrational, magical way of thinking about karma. In the above Buddhist conception of karma, insulting your friend, if it hurts him, may hurt you inasmuch as you empathize with him and feel sorry for insulting him, and feel it has tarnished your own character. Karma is not intended to make you paranoid that every little "bad" actions will randomly strike you in future with bad luck. It's intended to reveal how the life process unfolds, how we can master it and live as we wish.

>>18111261
here is an early discourse of the buddha on karma:

nayam bhikkhave kayo tumhakam na pi annesam

ascetics, this body is not yours, nor is it another's.

puranam idam bhikkhave kammam abhisankhatam abhisancetayitam vedaniyam datthabbam

it is, ascetics, past action, something conditioned, something willed into being, the result of experiences.

tatra kho bhikkhave sutava ariyasavako paticcasamuppadanneva sadhukam yoniso manasi karoti

therefore, ascetics, the well-learned noble disciple applies his mind analytically to the determined co-arising of things.

iti imasmim sati idam hoti, imassuppada idam uppajjati. imasmim asati idam na hoti, imassa nirodha idam nirujjhati.

it is that when this exists, that comes to be. the arising of this, arising of that. when this does not exist, that comes not to be. the cessation of this, the cessation of that.

avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnanam…

nescience determines volitions, volitions determine consciousness...

avijjaya tveva asesaviraganirodha sankhara nirodho, sankhara nirodha vinnana nirodho.

with the complete fading away and ceasing of nescience, volition ceases too; volition ceasing so, consciousness ceases too...

i think that it is a great mystery, OP

clearly there is something wrong in the universe when you have such a prevalence of evil succeeding over good, and you have a great misfortune.

there is an answer in Christianity to explain this issue in that there appears to be something wrong with our existence

(i.e... you could almost say, original sin wasn't supposed to happen by adam and eve... and now for some reason God's decided that all of his creation are going to be fucked for no reason because of adam and eve)

...not that i care about adam and eve one way or the other, i just think that the universe should be ordered in such an even way in which choosing good results in clear distinguished good things and choosing bad results in clear distinguished bad things

you could say that is how the religion of judaism is ordered (good = good/bad = bad), even though God's laws (i.e.. good = good) in Judaism seem to go against the human conscience.... Christianity is a bit different, in that the New Testament paints various portraits based on one's interpretation of reading the Bible and interpretation of various spiritual phenomenon

...these thins are complex and unknowable save an actual divine revelation from God

i'd say the portrait that Christianity portrays is that...

...unless Jesus automatically fixes everything and the Bible is a bit rash in it's interpretations... and the truth is that nothing bad will happen to anybody who claims Jesus Christ in the afterlife....

...Christianity paints a portrait where you pretty much get fucked over and suffer your entire life, and then after you die you are not really sure whether or not you will not be tormented forever along with the rest of the souls which have inhabited the world and various demons and whatnot... but there are some living souls in the portrait Christianity paints who are actually chosen by God to not suffer eternal torture... so these people, chosen by God, are whom the New Testament is speaking to

>>18110212
i think one thing can be certain, and that is you will be punished for doing wrong... unless you are somehow chosen by God to do wrong... ideas such as that which Mohammad of Islam appears to facilitate, or various Jewish people and a few gentiles depicted throughout the Old Testament, or for instance if the Catholic/Orthodox Church doctrines are true... and they are infallible, able to burn people alive and torture people without any of it being accounted as any sort of sin before God

>>18110220
i hate you

>>18110212
Well traditionally in Buddhism it doesn't even necessarily occur in their lifetime, and it doesn't necessarily stop them from continuing to be assholes regardless.

>>18111300
>>18111309
there is also the alternative view of Christianity that i subscribe to, based on what i read in the Bible... i think the Bible contains just a few contradictions and possible editing over the course of history which has given us a Bible which is very hard to decipher in terms of determining the bottom line on what God wants... and this has caused a great deal of evil and the slaughter of innocents and all kinds of problems for humanity for a great deal of human history

the view of Christianity that i subscribe to basically says that if you believe in Jesus Christ, you cannot ever go to hell because God will not send you there no matter what.

based on some of the scripture of the Bible we can draw this conclusion, possibly assuming that even though the Bible appears to say that 'people believing in Jesus' will go to hell... we maintain that the truth is people believing in Jesus cannot go to hell based on what is written in certain parts of the Bible and the fact that we actually do not know for sure aside from what the Bible is saying

i think that God's Holy Spirit will occasionally interdict in the universe to interpret the Bible and show us various things... but for the most part much of the spiritual person's life, i'd say, consists in deciphering evil spirits from spirits which we can trust and perceive are from God

>>18110993
There's no such thing as right or wrong and people have been doing what the commoner considers to be "wrong" for as long as sapient beings have existed. Many of them receive absolutely no comeuppance for their proposed "wrongdoings" in life, and claiming with no proof that they'll be somehow punished in "the afterlife" is laughable.

I'm not sure why this assertion based on logic offends so many people.

>>18111261
So karma simply means shaping the future, not paying for things like most people say?

>>18111364
this comment is bonkers, look at human history and the great accomplishments of humanity and you will see 'right' and 'wrong' matter even in secular thought and societies

>>18111364
this is nigger logic, the ultimate gibmedat

>>18111383
Paying for things is HOW you shape the future.

>>18111432
please explain.

in the french revolution... the big ordeal by which the world inherited radicalized skepticism even went so far as to create their own fake religion and had all kinds of writings (specifically Rousseau) as to why society still needs to recognized concepts and 'right' and 'wrong' and that these concepts are already pre-existing in nature

>>18111417
>>18111414
Morality is subjective and genuinely clinging to "right" or "wrong" is foolish. If you're too weak to do "wrong" for your own gain that's your problem. Don't get salty at others getting a leg up on you in real life while you fantasize over imaginary afterlife punishments for them.

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>>18111437
Ultimately, when you let your ego collapse completely, and simply exist, you discover that all of your reality experience is controlled by one factor; awareness. There's so many things in your reality. For the some of them, if you pay attention to them, this increases the probability of them occurring. For others, if you don't pay attention to them, this increases the probability of them occurring. Every other action you take in life stems from this primary control mechanism, and this is true for all people who experience any version of time.

Karmic cycles are just recursive cycles of awareness. You can get a very real sense of this by simply looking someone in the eye sometime. In doing so, you become aware of the very organ they use to become aware that you're aware of the organ they use to do so, in recursive fashion. That's the simple example.

Now imagine the path of a single photon, as it bounces off an advertisement in a store, through a window, reflects off a car rear view mirror, into your eyeball, affecting your awareness, causing you to act in such a way that via a sort of butterfly effect sets off another chain of inscrutable events that either increases or decreases the probability that the object the advertisement was display is purchased, not necessarily by the one who viewed it. That's the western style of Chi, and it's very strange and companies are competing with each other, so that you will pay them awareness.

Even if this concept disgusts you, its serves as an educational model for how to correctly apply chi in a more natural setting. I'll give another example. I used to live in the wilderness. I fed the birds every once in awhile, so they lived near me. They would screech, and call at each other almost all the time, even at night, *except* when a mountain lion was nearby. I listened for the birds, who listened to the other birds, who saw the cat, who alerted the forest, and all those who participated in that cycle.

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>>18111468
Because I was able to pay the birds, I was able to shape my future in such a way that I didn't have to come face to face with a mountain lion, although my neighbors tent down the hill got slashed pretty bad, and I think it took off with some of their food during the night. As well as keeping them up with paranoia.

Sooner or later everyone pays, but those who grasp on to this principle sooner than others gain the option to choose who they want to pay, and which future they wish to shape.

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>>18111364
>commoner
>comeuppance
>sapient

>>18111479
Smug and correct, anon. Smug and correct.

>>18111487
If a person doesn't get comeuppance'd, then they did the morally correct thing ya' dingus.

>>18111511
Indeed, like all the people that murder and torture and rape and don't get caught.

>>18111529
You don't know a single murderer, torturer, or rapist who was never caught.

>>18110221
You will judge yourself.

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>>18111613
This times infinity.

And don't think you can just go easy on yourself. When you approach death, the parts of you disconnect. Meaning you start to treat your own self as an other. So, whatever you habits are in treating others, that's what you're going to get from yourself. And you know *everything* about yourself. No secrets, nowhere to hide.

May god help you, if you're merciless to others.

>>18111468
>>18111475
Thank you very much.

>>18110220
What if you never wanted to be hateful, but reality drove you to it?

>>18111726
Then the part of you that's reality, and the part of you that thinks it isn't reality haven't met each other. And they both hate themselves.

>>18111625
>tfw I'm sympathetic to others, and just to those who really deserve it

I'm guessing I'm not that fucked then.

>>18111552
Maybe you don't.

>>18111734
Well what the fuck are you supposed to do about that?

>>18111739
Nope . But start loving others without any prejudice. Love conquers all m8.

>>18111780
And if there's nothing to love?

>>18110212
I can't be said to know anything for sure.

But, I've had a life where shit things happen. Shit things happen, and they always seemed to be the most shittiest things that could have possibly happened to someone like myself, at those moments, while not being a completely different person who starts with more or less of something that I had.

Yet, for all of the times I should have been dead, I'm not. For all of the times I should have been on the street, I'm not. For all of the times where I should not have even come away with anything, I came away wiser- or just with fun scars to look at, and be haunted by. I don't know what it is. A behavioral survival instinct on adrenaline, the luck of the draw, or God's blessing. I can't ever really say.

But it often seems exceptionally coincidental, how I get myself out of real shit-shows, or get dealt a bad hand, only to be dealt a full house later.

Granted... being a shitty human being to individuals you'd like to not shit up certainly has consequences. I seldom do that, because I can help it greatly. Maybe that's why I haven't been stabbed, poisoned or run over yet- I probably serve the most psychopathic of them too great a benefit.

> Or is there no downside to poor behavior after all?

There isn't. At all.

There is no fairness or justice. There is no good or evil. The universe remains ultimately indifferent to everything.

We already all know this, but we try to deny it by erecting belief systems. It's our way of masking this stark reality. Obviously, we can't answer correctly, but that’s okay because we don’t have to, we just have to answer adequately. We don’t have to make the black cloud disappear, we just have to make it seem dark grey instead of black. Our explanations can be ninety-nine percent unsatisfying and that’s good enough because we don’t need the black cloud gone, we just need it taken down a notch.

Ever been depressed? Really depressed? Like nothing means anything? Like there’s no point to anything? What’s the worst thing about those dark moments? Where do they get their power?

From their undeniability, right? From the fact that there’s no argument. When you’re in that state, don’t you know perfectly well that it’s true?

When you’re in that space, you know it’s not just a mood. You’re seeing something you don’t normally allow yourself to see. Your moments of blackest despair are really your most honest moments. Your most lucid moments. That’s when you’re seeing without your protective lenses. That’s when you pull back the curtain and see things as they are.

We’ve all known the feeling of utter futility. And most importantly, we remember that at the heart of that black despair is the knowledge that that’s what’s real

Everything is futile.

>>18111823
>Blah blah, I choose not to believe in hope
>Everything's futile, I'm depressed

Working as intended. You know what you need to do, if you want to change that belief system around.

>>18111842
What would that be?

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>>18111792
Then lie well enough to convince someone else that there is. Boomf. Now you created a reason to love being alive, when previously there wasn't one. And the best part is, if that person goes onto show others what you showed them, it eventually makes its way back to you, and that lie you told becomes the reality.

Is it still a lie at that point? "Fake it 'till you make it."

>Until you MAKE it.

>>18111850
I don't know any other people.

>>18111792
Like? Can you please give me a few examples?

>>18111850
This. Freaking awesome mate

>>18111862
Terrorists, murderers, child rapists. What is there to love in people like that?

>>18111850
>fake it till you make it

That's what religions say.

>>18111868
Isn't lack of love and acceptance usually the cause behind all this.
Most serial killers have had a bad childhood.
Don't know about terrorists.

>>18111874
Religion like Islam? Hinduism? Judaism?

>>18111887
Or maybe love was the cause of it?

Remember that love is a word. Everybody has their own definition of it, and so it can be skewed to fit any ideology. In the past, Christians used love to justify the persecution of pagans. They were liberating them from evil and bringing them to truth. That was their idea of showing love.

>>18111887
That could be argued, though I think it's a simplification.
My point however, is how are we supposed to love those people after what they've done?

>>18111899
Huh never thought of it this way.
And you definitely have a point.. too much love spoils children.
People can take advantage of you if they know that you love them above everything else.

>>18111903
Um what I believe is that they are victims of circumstances. Maybe we would have done the same if we went through such things.

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Everything good in the universe began with love. And everything bad in the universe began with love. But the point is, they *began* with love. That's why it's a force in its own right, up there with gravity, and the passage of time.

>>18111907
But do you love them?

>>18111911
Yes.

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>>18111915
Actually though? Not just saying it because you think you should? Do you love the man who did this?

Same thing with the afterlife. People believe in it because they want it to be true. We all want some rhyme and reason to the world we live in, and we want some universal justice force.

But evil and good are human concepts, and are completely subjective, so how can you get 'good' and 'bad' karma?

>>18111924
Nope. This man doesn't deserve it because he is doing the same thing that made his home a hellhole and what he did was kill those people whom gave him a job, home, opportunity (everything they would do for their Own) .

What does love mean anyway? Everybody's trying to love each other without knowing what that means. Instead of being honest.

It's that whole fake it till you make it. Pass your lie to someone else till it gets passed around. Well, that lie isn't true, and it's creating an unnatural situation.

It's not that feelings aren't real. It's that your concepts aren't. You can feel something for someone else. You can call it love. That's wonderful. But it CAN also be deceptive if we fool ourselves into believing that the concept of love is more real than how we actually feel.

If you say that everybody should love one another, that can be a very dangerous situation. Someone's idea of love could be completely harmful towards another.

Because you're putting a concept first before reality.

The reality is that you may have fond feelings for other human beings, wonderful. But you might also harbor anger towards someone else. Maybe it's even justified because of whatever that person did. So how do we handle that situation in an honest way?

Instead of trying to find a true solution, you can just sweep it under the rug for the sake of maintaining this clean and pure notion of unconditional love. Nothing gets addressed and the denial of the situation goes on.

till someone starts asking questions again.

>>18110219
How do you know?

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>>18111261
thank you for this post, has given me a new view on the subject at hand. personally i dont believe in morals, but i still dont do "bad" actions as they have a negative effect on my own well being. Im a nihilist.

>>18111940
Okay fine. Real judgement occurs when you're almost dead, but *not quite* technically, but pretty damn close to death's door, relatively speaking. Happy?

>>18111625
this idea of morals i see seeping into every crevice is absurd. morals is superstition like religions and the like. why do we need to act moral, who decides what is moral. we just act moral because we are indoctrinated into that belief and have it hard wired into us from birth.

>>18112078
Alright. That's fine.

>>18112078
It seems pretty simple to me. Do you want to live in a world where people act with morality, or do you want to live in a world where people stab each other in the back? Where the rules come from isn't important, as long as they work.

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I know a man who killed someone, ruined many peoples lives with drugs and violence, abused every person and situation he could, stole from all people he called friends, all but abandoned his child, and continues to live a life of depravity and manipulation.

He has always got away with everything horrible he has done without severe repercussions. Ive always wondered how hes not been killed by now as many insane predicaments as he has been in.

I dont know that karma exists in this life. If it does something horrendous awaits him.

Its been more than 10 years since ive seen him, but ive always somewhat been waiting to hear of a terrible tragedy involving him.

When I think of karma it always makes me think of him.

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>>18111625
This honestly sounds like most normal days.

>>18112193
How did you manage to meet a guy like that?

>>18112193
Remember that guy must be living in hellish situation too. Those kinds of actions have effectively isolated him from any love he may receive from other people. So his existence might just be hell for him already.

>>18112193
Why do you think this is the beginning of his karma? Imagine what endeavors he must have accomplished for such boons that he has in this life. It's unfortunate he burns away such surplus for base manipulation and exploitation, but there have always been such people.

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>>18112217
I was a teenager into eating a lot of LSD.

>>18112223
It doesnt really seem like it, last I heard from a friend was that he was living with his parents getting a free ride and geting people together for an orgy and selling crack.

Pretty much a deplorable life that hes completely content and happy about. Hes blissfully aware, i guess id call it. Aware enough to manipulate most people he meets. Quite actually a psychopath.

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>>18111460

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5sSZc33O08


Thoughts?

>>18110212
You must remember; there are consequences for behavior, attitude and intent that are hard-wired into the system. If you generate a world of negativity, then you will reap what you sow and that world of negativity will permeate your existence. Everything you do will be done to bring everything down around you. They say misery loves company, right?

So then; wouldn't it make sense that if you generated a world of positivity, your life would be positive. Everything you came a part of would be filled with positive spirit, community and love. All those assholes get what they deserve just by being who they are. There isn't anything you need to do in order to rectify their ass-hattery, just keep doing your thing and loving life.

I don't believe it's true at all, and that the universe is filled with many "good", "bad", and undefinable things that may have a structure with no meaning to us.

I think poor behavior can get you a lot of places. But it results in dishonest and unfair relationships, which matter a lot. So that depends on what consequences you care about.

karma is just whatever happens and you should probably leave it at that you gimped out half-wits

>>18111460
>weak
>Hahahahaha
Isn't it more weak when you [decide] to kill something, when it is within your capacity to do otherwise and better handle the situation?

Because if morality is void, the you need some measure of... well, if you're throwing subjectivity out the window, and you still want to make the claim that you're a meat-thing with meat-thing-scope perspective, how are you ever going to use words to explain the objective better-beneficial-ness of something, or the negative-detrimental-ness of something?

I mean, you couldn't. It doesn't fly.

So, I think you're going about this all wrong, and you're too quick to wield the knife of arbitrary-ness. You can just as well get a leg up on somebody in real life by being "morally right". It's not that the being "morally right" necessitated the doing better, but that the potential benefits you serve another person who may be less "morally right" with respect to you, may cause your state of being not dead or in disrepair a valuable thing to them.

Which means you live another day to reproduce. If you're unable to suck someone's dick, metaphorically or otherwise, because you cannot retain your integrity afterwards, this may make you a much weaker human being. One who can easily forfeit their concept of self identity over the slightest mishap- which then requires them to destroy or eliminate anything that can pose a threat to them (metaphorically or otherwise).

Besides, what about being ethically sound? Is that a no-no?

>>18110212
You gotta go deeper. IMagine someone lives a life of poverty and slavery to rich assholes. Sucks, but now imagine next life the roles are reversed, and you are the rich asshole enslaving those same fucks that enslaved you. This is how it works. Its an equilibrium, and very complex. I have had to deal with the role reversal thing many times, but i am aware of it at least. For example i was an evil torture dungeon master. This life i was the one tortured in the same way. I have more examples but meh.

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>>18112991
Everyone wants the rapist to live the life of the victim and be forced to experience the pain she caused.

But no one looks at a victim and imagines it could be a rapist dealing with their karma - that's just cruel fatalism.

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>>18112763
> when it is within your capacity to do otherwise and better handle the situation
why would one action be weaker than another? you're basing this off of the assumption that committing murder is a "bad" action.

>how are you ever going to use words to explain the objective better-beneficial-ness of something, or the negative-detrimental-ness of something?
you appeal to consensus by majority. that's pretty exactly what democracy is. democracy doesn't make decisions off of a strict rule of ethics, but from the will of the majority. i'm not praising democracy, but i'm pointing out how it solves this problem.

> If you're unable to suck someone's dick, metaphorically or otherwise, because you cannot retain your integrity afterwards, this may make you a much weaker human being
Right, so are you arguing FOR moral subjectivity then?

>what about being ethically sound? Is that a no-no?
What do you mean? Isn't that what the whole argument above is about?


Also, did I have an argument with you on /r9k/ about gods the other day? Your form of arguing is incredibly familiar.

>>18111924
>>18111934
>This man doesn't deserve it because he is doing the same thing that made his home a hellhole
>his entire life has existed in violence and its the only way he can express his anguish. I have no compassion and cant empathize with other peoples pain

I wonder if any of the people who gave him a opportunities also employ the people who destroyed his home?

>>18114225
No. I just found it really silly that the nature of other human beings was made to seem so... arbitrary.

>why would one action be weaker
I'm not basing it off of the assumption that murder is "bad", purely, though. Murder can be beneficial.
>murder is often easy
>it does not take much to know how turn someone off
>it is not always the case that enough supplies or utilities exist to avoid murder; murder is then optimal
>if not the most sensible plan of action

>if someone is dead, the amount of benefit they could serve you does not go beyond fertilizer
>entertainment value
>or an excuse to make more soylent fertilizer

>a living person made tame can do more than a corpse more often than not
>loadsamoney
>why kill this person
>because it's easy
>not necessarily because it's right or wrong
>easy requires less effort and resources
>easy does not need to be something born of meticulous means
>easy is something that comes far greater, and with less give, than hard
>weak

I just don't think playing the long con on behavioral stereotypes is much easier than taking a blunt object to the side of someone's skull about 3-4 times. I'd rather suggest that the former is more likely to have a greater reward than the latter. Instant vs delayed gratification. On top of this sense of norms that become visible when we mention things like government/tribes.
>now the will of majority will antagonize you if you are caught

>so are you arguing FOR moral subjectivity then?
I don't know. Would that be synonymous with moral relativism? Because, if not, I'm going to assume that it translates into
>everyone has belief values
>everyone is a social creature
>everyone must interact
>everyone is not exactly similar, from the physical to the mental
>everyone will have different influences or factors affecting them
>everyone will believe that they understand the "right" things
>not everyone will share the understanding of the "right" things
>this is okay
>this is encouraged