A question for occultists: Why do so many people who do chaos

People don't understand themselves well enough, so they don't even know what they should be fixing with chaos magick. They just go for external benefits like candy bars and pussy.

If only they weren't too edgy to try meditation and humility.

Happy coincidences are all that anyone can achieve with modern "magic," OP. That's all there is to it, and I suspect that you already knew this.

>>18100979
Can you think of any modern exceptions?
>>18100981
So you think there's old magic that can achieve more than that? What do you see as the fundamental difference that allows one to work but not the other?

>>18100981
Total bullshit btw. You can use chaos magic to improve yourself / your own mind, which will definitely affect your life.

>>18100953
>Is it just laziness?

Some of that, yeah.

>Does chaos magic tend to attract people who don't want to put in a little more effort?

It may be more attractive to special little snowflakes, people who know they're perfect just the way they are. Everyone is.

>>18100986
Oh, postmodern magical thought will definitely affect your life, but I wouldn't call it an improvement.

>>18100984
>Can you think of any modern exceptions?
I don't know any chaos magicians by name, other than two of my friends who dabbled in it.

I think they both tried to use it for confidence/social benefits, but they've both stopped now.

>>18100984
>So you think there's old magic that can achieve more than that?

There are older traditions that can achieve more.

>>18100992
That depends on how you use it. Theoretically chaos magic can help people overcome depression and social anxiety, among other things.

It can also make you a complete nutter if you're an idiot about it.

>>18100993
Any practicing magicians at all (chaos or otherwise) you can think of that are good?

>I think they both tried to use it for confidence/social benefits, but they've both stopped now.
I don't know why people act like this is mutually exclusive with trying to improve yourself on a deeper level. Hell, confidence isn't even a bad thing to strive for if you have low self-esteem.

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>>18100953
>Does chaos magic tend to attract people who don't want to put in a little more effort?
I guess so. Taking into account that one of the main arguments against critics of chaos magic, is that they find that magic has to be complex and therefore is not anyone who can practice magic anyway.
I 'm ceremonialist , so my opinion is biased. But I see the chaos magic as a simplistic way to make mistakes . You see , most of the older Chaosists were ceremonialists or were part of a ceremonial oriented group ant some point, then break free from pre established concepts was the end of the journey of the Magnum Opus, the time when the initiate is able to create its own system , and pass the torch on.
So in a way I see most Chaosists as wanting much result with little work.

>>18100998
>I don't know why people act like this is mutually exclusive with trying to improve yourself on a deeper level
Well I know that me and my former chaos magician friends agree with you on that.
>Any practicing magicians at all (chaos or otherwise) you can think of that are good?
I should have been more general, other than the obvious big names (Crowley, John D, Rasputin, etc...) I don't know any magicians by name at all.

1. What's the proper word for someone who does magic, without much connotations one way or the other? I don't want to use "wizard" because it suggests I think I'm wise, which seems pretentious and arrogant. Sorcerer and witch both have negative implications, which I also want to avoid. Are mage and magician both neutral?

2. I learned some of what I know/think about magic from Grant Morrison (a little from his talks and writings explicitly about it, and a lot from his comics), and a lot of it from Patrick Dunn's "Postmodern Magic." Right now I meditate daily, and I do sigils and cartomancy. I'd like to expand further, to learn more about myself and to grow as a/an (appropriate term here). I can't join any kind of group or anything for practical reasons and because I think most of the people there would frown on things like the fact that the only evocation I've ever done was of The Flash.

>>18101019
Harry Potter changed the connotations around Witch and Wizard alot, to make them more normal and less taboo.

Mage still sounds like the least biased. Magician sounds like you do party tricks though.

>>18101025
Mage it is!

(Although I ALSO do magic of the illusion variety.)

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>>18100998

Cerimonialfag here. >>18100999

>Any practicing magicians at all (chaos or otherwise) you can think of that are good?

Ray Sherwin and his Book of Results is the one really good chaos magician in this topic of self improvement that i remember. Find this book. Its gold.

Aleister Crowley and the Practice of the Magical Diary by James Wasserman whit J. Daniel Gunther's Foreword. Works collection Crowley and Frater Achad involving the practice of magical diary, a must read in magick and self improvement.

In a more ceremonial and mystic aproach, yet pragmatic, Frater Ashen Chassan's Gateways Through Stone and Circle. Through the experience of evocation , for several aspects , bringing the influence of planetary powers to the ethical improvement of life.

>>18101051
>Aleister Crowley and the Practice of the Magical Diary by James Wasserman whit J. Daniel Gunther's Foreword.

Fruit of a poison tree.

>>18101062
Because Crowley is poison or because that specific book is bad? Just wondering.

>>18101069

Gunther is poison and so are his students.

>>18101075
This does not really invalidate this work because most overwhelming part of the job is from Crowley and Frater Achad (that is nuts, but whatevar). Moreover it is only kinda "appeal to authority", none of this invalidates the particular nature of work. It's a good book. Read and decide for yourself.

>>18101062
>>18101069
>>18101075
This important collection includes Aleister Crowley's John St. John magical diary, and Fraters Achad's A Master of the Temple magical diary, two must read.

>>18101075
A 2-3 pages foreword can realy invalidate 200+ pages of a book ?

>>18101089

If you can steal it, sure.

>>18101097

There is no such thing as a "must read".

>>18101089
>>18101097
>>18101109

Come to think of it, if a Thelemite is falling for Gunther, you'd do the community a favor by getting out their way. That's what a trap is for.

>>18101150
Not a Thelemite. Haven't read much of anything by Crowley. Who's Gunther and why is he so bad?

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>>18101136
>There is no such thing as a "must read".
It's just an opinion. For me are two good examples of general practice of magical diary. The fact that it was made accessible by James Wasserman editing is a good thing. The gunther preface is so minimal that it makes no difference, in the end ITS NOT A J. Daniel Gunther's WORK.
Your problems with Ghunter, you solve with him, not with me.

>>18101158

Gunther is the disavowed student of Marcello Motta. He's claiming to be a Master of the Temple and his students, Wasserman and Billy Breeze, have declared that Gunther is the "World Teacher" prophesied by Crowley. They've been holding weekend retreats where you can pay a few hundred to sit at the feet of the master.

One of my old co-conspirators believes that Gunther was indeed prophesied by Crowley, but in fact is the lamb from the, "Cry of the 20th Aethyr", in, The Vision and the Voice. Works for me.

>>18101171

I think it's funny that you'd suck them publicly like this and don't have a problem with Gunther. He's there to attract the unfit. It's just part of the dynamic bringing down the OTO.

>>18101175
>It's just part of the dynamic bringing down the OTO.
What began with Marcelo Motta itself. Nothing new under the sun.

The particular work is valid. Only that.It DOES NOT VALIDATE anything about life of the man who wrote the foreword. Nor invalidates 200 pages of content that may be helpful. No book is 100 % useful. Simply disregard what is useless .

>>18100953
It's really just how the usual dilettantism and cowardice that permeate all approaches to magic look when chaos magicians do it. There's nothing all that unique about it.

>>18101209

You'll be a loser all your life. Sad!

>>18101212
That seems like a pretty bold prediction based on two sentences you've seen me write, which I strongly suspect you've read as implying something they don't to boot. Why do you say that about me?

>>18101212
wtf
Whenever a median discussion arises, must arise a troll. Shoo. Go bother elsewhere.

>>18101212
Yeah, maybe he'd be less of a loser if he practiced geometric jizz magic.

kek

you kids are so easy.

Most people really impressed with results are beginners. Most people willing to sit around on a forum and discuss what they are doing are also beginners. Anyone who succeeded in changing their lives for the better would be out there enjoying that life.

>>18101241
>2016
>not being a prodigy of pythagorean pud-pulling
get on my level

>>18101268
I've known plenty in all three categories. The last-named still tend to come around to brag and cry "You can too!" from time to time.

>>18101268
>Anyone who succeeded in changing their lives for the better would be out there enjoying that life.

The longer you play, the deeper you become embedded in the long game. Hanging around here does useful things for me. Keeps my ego reasonably tamped down. I watch for interesting Anons popping up among the swirling madness. Gives me some idea what teh kidz are seeking and how it might be delivered in palatable form.

There's a certain freedom here that is difficult to find elsewhere. I like it.

>>18100953
performance psychology and confirmation bias is all "occult magic" is as opposed to stage magic, which is sleight of hand, trap doors ect.

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is it better to manifest a few dollars for some candy or to manifest the candy bars themselves? doesn't sound that important, but imo the reason that a lot of chaos magicians - not all - burn out at the beginning is because a rigorous, systemic self-inquiry is necessary to stay reasonably sane and focused. also the allowance of chameleon-like belief structures surely attracts the nuttier class of potential magicians.

for those with the proper discipline to at least adhere to a belief in the self, chaos magic is effective at reigning a few back from insanity and into a better life. i think it is not laziness per se, but a lack of focus - not only particular to chaos magicians but to humans in general. the pervasive self-doubt always preventing us from articulating our needs and wants with clarity - do i want this thing in particular, or am i just seeking a consequence of it? but once you can do so; i mean, decide, and stay decided, the magickal process is simple. insanely simple. once you can voice your needs and wants, with purity, with trust, you're a magician.

>Why not use it to completely change your life for the better, once you've seen that it works?
and at some point it comes down to - do i want to be able to execute quick, simple and effective rituals, or do i want to be the fanciest, most elaborate and most powerful of them all? for some people, it would be a pleasure in and of itself to be a more elegant magician. for some, they just want to get something done. extremes or combinations of either persuasion may or may not be an improvement on the quality of life for different people. but for the most part, asking that question about everyone you know will just cause you pain. why don't people want better lives for themselves? i don't know. i think some people grow comfortable in misery and don't have the courage to demand a change.

>>18100995
Sauce me on some. I love occult, but not a single ritual/magic I did has ever had any effect whatsoever, even though I want them to so bad. Hit me with anything, I got both, time and money, but I won't bother with living (or ex-living) sacrifices and such.

Life is just too boring not to dabble in that stuff.
I believe, but I fail to achieve.

>>18101335
>even though I want them to so bad

>>18101339
Yea, yea, "friendship magic" and "believing" and stuff. I'm simply saying I tried my best and failed miserably. No need to read into it too deeply. I ain't gonna go Naruto on you or something.

>>18101308
>is it better to manifest a few dollars for some candy or to manifest the candy bars themselves?

If your goal is candy, candy bars are best. It's an extreme example, but imagine getting the money and finding no candy anywhere.

Or losing the money before you get to the store.

>>18101335
>not a single ritual/magic I did has ever had any effect whatsoever, even though I want them to so bad

Maybe you're just not putting enough into it. That's where yoga and meditation come in.

Magic is change and change takes power, for lack of a better word. This power must be cultivated and retained.

>>18101348
I just meant most systems that work in my experience will require some detachment from results.

>>18101364
I took up morning meditations while I was, for the lack of better word, researching theistic satanism a few years back. Apart from the 3rd eye/chakra/visualization/mind clearing and other basic stuff, what would you recommend?
I have never tried yoga though. Starting tips?

>>18101370
Which systems exactly? I would love to look into it if I haven't already and see what can be fixed.

>>18101051
>Ray Sherwin and his Book of Results

thanks, i'm enjoying this

>>18101405
>what would you recommend?

Zazen is pretty generic. There's plenty of information about it and lots of zendos out there. Hatha yoga is more useful than you might think. Tai Chi might be even better. This is a good intro to raja yoga:

http://hermetic.com/crowley/eight-lectures-on-yoga/

Pranayama is an excellent aid to magical practice, just take your time and don't go crazy with it. Yoga is like weight lifting. It's not what you do today; it's what you do every day.

>>18101466
Zenfag.

>>18101466
>Zazen is pretty generic.

Zazen is clean of bullshit.

>>18100953
okay fine, I'll use it to completely change my life for the better are you happy now!!!

>>18100953
The nature of chaos is to throw an idea into the twisting nether and forget it ever existed. Rarely, that idea may grow to fruition. If you needed it, in earnest, it will come to you.

The being governing chaos is known as Kek. He also governs these dubs. Check them, and fear his power.

>>18101747
>747
Kek clearly wants you to catch the next plane back to /pol/