Spirituality

>>18010120
the soul evolved with us, even microscopic organism have souls. its just the way it is. cause everything living has part of god witch is the soul..

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If there's a soul, it's definetly not exclusive to humans.

>>18010120
Souls are imaginary.

>>18010120

> Bg 2.12 — Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
>Bg 2.20 — For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

You are the soul. You exist eternally. You acquired a body some time before. Likely it was millions of lifetimes ago, but I am no scholar of karma.

>>18010120
What is the argument for a soul? This is not bait this is a legitimate question, I personally haven't quite subscribed to any theism currently around and am wondering why so much importance is placed on souls?

When our ancestors are those meteor propagated shrooms

>>18010145
An ancient idea that people thought before they studied the brain.

There is no argument.

>>18010145
>What is the argument for a soul?
Scientifically? The only reason to introduce the soul is qualia, and that's hotly debated. But even those that think qualia requires another "substance" in our composition almost never point to a paranormal soul-like phenomenon.

Basically put, why do experiences have a subjective aspect? You know how it feels like to be angry? Happy? Scared? Well we can explain the emotion, we can explain the reactions and sources of the emotion. We have no solid explanation for why the emotion FEELS LIKE anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

>>18010222
>But even those that think qualia requires another "substance" in our composition almost never point to a paranormal soul-like phenomenon.
Then what do they point to?

>>18010222
The concept of qualia falls apart when faced with the question "how would a person who doesn't have qualia behave?"

It's just a definition time lapse error. Spirituality was a definition of something mystic, when it should be a definition of supervenience. This red herring was cultivated. smilecharms627 at gmail

>>18010128
You are absolutely right ! The Arabs might have souls too.

>>18010248
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#Neurobiological_blending_of_perspectives

>>18010256
How? It's a point in favor of qualia being non-physical that there is no recognizable difference between a person and a p-zombie.

>>18010945

How to distinguish between a zombie and a real person?

Numbers,
A real person would be non-programmable
A zombie lacks qualia he just copy behaviour
You put in media crazy zombie behaviour something

Like eat shit!

Them you go and watch who is eating shit and continue, becose you know he is eating shit becose social behaviour , if you have qualia you'll won't eat shit anymore because you don't care how much is promoted in the media you have a inner compass ,qualia.

Tl;Dr
Zombies go to mac donals.

>>18010128

fuzzy camel :3

>>18010154

the fungus among us is a special type of fungus

>>18010120
i thought everyone knows by now its a part of an alien experiment dealing with souls

>>18011048

>Soul Eggs

are you sure anon there is something inside?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcdYBh3hgg

>>18011042
>A real person would be non-programmable

This is a behavioral difference. A p-zombie has no behavioral difference distinguishable between it and a real person.

Your post does not show an understanding of what qualia or p-zombies are. Qualia is not "inner compass."

>>18011445

A zombie looks only outside, it only copy behaviour.
All persons are programmable
But only a person with qualia can overcome his programing.
Qualia is the ability to feel and be changed by this feel to be able to decode it for future reference.
If I recall good the wiki article states that a p- zombie don't feel but acts as if feels, the only way to know how to do so is by external reference,
In theory you could take a p - zombie and make it act like pain is pleasure and pleasure is pain.
A person with qualia will have this as a objective observer, and independent of the external it will make his own observations.

Even if you remove memory a person with qualia could distinct between God and evil just by inner feel .

remove memory from a p-zombie and you got a bot who don't know what to do if pain or joy

Remember the lader monkey experiment?
Even if beaten some monkeys still climb the ladder.
It's the outliers who you can trust to have a soul.

>>18011515
You are confirming that you don't understand the concepts of qualia and p-zombies.

>>18011529

I recognise them that I don't understand
Tell me what it is becose only point that I don't understand don't make your point either.
What's the difference
Between a behaviour zombie
And a human.

>>18011552
A p-zombie would react to any attempt at programming exactly the same way a regular person would. But they wouldn't have any subjective experience about the event.

The ENTIRE point is that you cannot tell them apart externally.

>>18011574

But which parameter would a p zombie use to know what is to be normal?
He lacks qualia
He needs to use outside parameters to know normal.
He would resist programing like a normal person
but base on the behaviour of the people who surrounded them .
But a normal person can be programmed by culture and education.
Some people don't have the inner compass
But I noticed that some of them learn ,
One of the problems is that whe are putting a straight line , here were whe got degrees,
We could say some people have more qualia and/or egohood in different degrees, but it is clear that some people lacks of any trace of individuality that they are Mc drones.
I insist numbers is the way to know
You can only prove the existence of the soul by having soulless person's

>>18010120
Trent D. Stephens wrote a great article about the spiritual origins of humanity titled "Who was Adam?" I'm not sure if you can find it online though.

>>18011708
>But which parameter would a p zombie use to know what is to be normal?
The same ones you do. That is sensory and social perception.

>He lacks qualia
This does not stop something from gathering data about the environment.

>We could say some people have more qualia and/or egohood in different degrees, but it is clear that some people lacks of any trace of individuality that they are Mc drones.

You still don't seem to understand what qualia are. Perhaps Mary in the B&W Room is a better thought experiment for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#The_knowledge_argument

>>18010256
Like a sociopath...? I'm less than a layman in regards to all this but I would think that Qualia is an inherent to the blend of emotion and sentience.

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>>18010222
You answered your own question _by asking questions._ Metacognition is thinking about thinking, which means to ask questions about thinking, and questions about questions. We have subjective experience in order to ask questions.

By questions I don't just mean the verbal action of asking a question, but also searching and asking implicit questions to one's self.

P-zombies cannot ask and answer questions about their own questions.

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>>18011815
You cannot use qualia to explain why there is qualia. Searching and asking questions does not require qualia.

>>18010945
>there is no recognizable difference between a person and a p-zombie.
A p-zombie won't claim that it has qualia.

>>18012069
Why not?

>>18012079
Because the act of "claiming to have qualia" is causally tied to the ability of "experiencing qualia". The former is impossible without the latter.

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What purpose would a soul serve?

Everything in your body serves, or served a purpose.

Also, at what point in our evolution did we acquire souls? And why?

>>18012085
No it isn't. Even a cartoon can claim it's a real boy. Look at the color scientist hypothetical again. This person knows everything there is to know about the color red, including how a person's brain reacts and every nuance of social implication. Yet their entire life has been in a black and white room.

They now claim they "have seen red." The claim is easily made. Has the person actually experienced the quale of seeing red?

>>18012088
>Everything in your body serves, or served a purpose.
not really
and the souls purpose is to connect with the divine.

>>18012106
>Even a cartoon can claim it's a real boy.
That's because it's created by somebody who has qualia. If nobody had qualia, there would be no way for the concept to have been created.

>>18012131
So if qualia is required for the physical to have qualia, where does qualia come from?

>>18012134
What? I'm just trying to demonstrate that there necessarily must be a difference in behavior between a human and a p-zombie.

>>18012168
Then what you mean is you don't accept p-zombies as a concept. Because what you're doing is arguing the definition of something isn't the definition of that thing.

And that's fine. But again I ask you to look at the color scientist hypothetical.

>>18012177
I'm showing that the concept is a paradox. And it's a paradox that disproves qualia.

This is kinda disturbing. There was an NPR story a year or so ago. One of those "Radio Lab" stories on the weekend, where they do an in depth story on one interesting subject.

This was about a guy they found in some squalid hospital somewhere in Mexico. This was a place where they housed deaf and dumb people. You know, Helen Keller types. Now people have known how to treat deaf-mutes for a long time, since Helen Keller's era. But the people who had ran this institute had been neglecting their patients for decades. They'd wash them and feed them, but never bothered to try to communicate with them in any way. It's almost like those thought experiments, where you ask "What would happen to a child if they grew up without any human contact. Would they be some kind of feral animal? Some kind of retard?" Except in this case it's like people grew up without any mental contact or communication.

Well years ago the authorities discovered what the place had been doing, rescued all the people, and put them into proper care. The NPR show was an interview with one of the people who had been a patient there. Now he's entirely lucid and spoke through a surrogate translator, describing what his life had been like since then.

But then they asked him what his memories were like during his time at that hospital, and he started getting really upset and scared. Not because he had been mistreated, but because he has no proper memory of the place. He describes it like having no soul. No sense of time. No consciousness, just a horrible black hole. As if being able to communicate with others is the basis for consicousness. He had been forty years old or something when he had been rescued, but before that it was like he wasn't even alive.

>>18012187
You reject p-zombies. I got it. The color scientist has nothing to do with that. Let's remove personhood from the equation and look at a single quale: red.

Can the scientist truthfully claim she has seen red?

>>18012195
No, but it has nothing to do with qualia because a (relatively) simple robot in the same circumstances wouldn't be able to identify red either. Certain types of information can only be transferred in certain ways. A human cannot describe what red looks like, but that's only because that information cannot be expressed via words or received via hearing.

>>18011897
Asking questions about questions does require qualia.

More like when did our souls acquire bodies
>"when"
>not knowing time is an illusion that only exists within our limited perspective

>>18012226
>a (relatively) simple robot in the same circumstances wouldn't be able to identify red either. Certain types of information can only be transferred in certain ways. A human cannot describe what red looks like, but that's only because that information cannot be expressed via words or received via hearing.

That's the EXACT point.

>Before her release, Mary was in possession of all the physical information about color experiences of other people.
>After her release, Mary learns something about the color experiences of other people.
>Therefore, Before her release, Mary was not in possession of all the information about other people's color experiences, even though she was in possession of all the physical information.
>Therefore, There are truths about other people's color experience that are not physical.
>Therefore, Physicalism is false.

There are legitimate criticisms against these things and they are listed in the article. As I said it a hotly debated subject. I'm not trying to say one side or the other for certain. I was asked what could bring up the possibility of the soul and I gave a current answer. You don't like the answer, go talk to Frank Jackson.

>>18012238
>>Before her release, Mary was in possession of all the physical information about color experiences of other people.
This experiment assumes that all physical information can be communicated via language, which it can't.

And being able to think of another problem doesn't change the need to address the p-zombie problem. Only one paradox is required to disprove something.

>>18010120
When the Father breathed life into you.

>>18012252
No it clearly states its assumption.

>MARY WAS IN POSSESSION OF ALL THE PHYSICAL INFORMATION

Says nothing about how she got it.

Fuck it. Nevermind. I don't know why I bother trying to talk to people here.

>>18012232
So then qualia can be physically demonstrated to exist by examining the mechanics that allow somebody to ask questions about questions.

Think of the relation between soul and living being like software with hardware.

The more developed software, you need a more developed hardware. The same with our brain and soul. Through evolution and external interference our brain developed to a stage that enables it to capture and higher frequency of counsciousness.

Remember this sentence: Souls are attracted to genetic traits.

>>18012327
continued.

And "souls" come from Saturn. The wheel of reincarnation are the rings.Saturn is a huge generator of counsciousness and reality. But not the most high.

>>18012334
saturn is hell bruh

>>18012377
yes, it´s where the trapped souls go back and forth through time. it´s the machine. the trap.

>>18012395
some say its also where the fallen angels are imprisoned and are to be released during the end times. side note, people say the hexagon on the pole is not actually real but edited in. for what reason, im not sure. also, saturn could be hell, but people also talk about hell being in the center of earth and if you look into hollow earth it makes sense because hell is a bottom less pit. if earth is hollow, the beings there are standing upside down and to them, falling down would seem like a bottomless pit.

Everybody today seems like an expert in all things science and morality. I don't trust people like that.

>>18012456
right. but who are you referring to? also if the information doesn't resonate with you, give your opinion. how do you whats true anyway?

>>18010145
because we need to have our identity recorded and "uploaded" when we pass on. Think of it as a document that gets uploaded to "the cloud" after the hardware fails to preserve the content recorded.