Why do you beileve?

>>17710545
I believe because it is written.

>>17710545
Yeah I bet that was a real shocker when you found out Christianity branched out form The Jewish religion.

At some point you stop believing and begin understanding.

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I refuse to listen to OP because I found out his very being and all that he knows is based on the efforts of others that lived before him.

>>17710557
The point was that Judaism is also based in other religions, and those are, and those are, ect. The modern day Bible is just a collection of rewritten stories taken from other, older religions like Zoroastrianism and Roman Paganism.

>>17710545
>Christianity is based of of other religions
Is this assfag really using an example that he doesn't even give an example of?

>>17710545
haha yeah i know what you mean. i stopped using computer software when i found out that it was all based on older software :p

>>17710582
Are you lame? Look up Hammurabi.

>>17710573
your absolutely retarded the Jewish religion was around before the Roman paganism came into existence. Are you trying to convince /x/ that the bible was based on a set of ideas that where even created yet?

We split apart. Pangea is no more for a reason. We fight too Much.

I was raised hyper-Christian. My dad is the kind of believer who thinks the second coming is within our lifetime. I stopped believing around age 14 for pretty much the same reason as OP. However, I've never been able to shake the belief in some kind of God or deity. I don't have any idea what this entity would be like, I just feel like there might be one. I've tried not believing this, but I haven't really been successful. Not sure if I'm right or just damaged psychologically by years of indoctrination.

>>17710604
What does a set of laws for an empire have to do with this topic?

>>17710605
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion

>>17710582
Ancient Mesopotamian polytheistic tribal religion came before Judaism.

>>17710605
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLviKiEuj30

>>17710622
This.

Also look at the similarities to Mithraism.

>>17710637
This guy is great and I recommend watching his stuff.

>>17710637
Literally turned me to atheism, Aron is a beast.

>>17710617
Good job you posted an article that you didn't read. The site noted Canaan and abrahamic religion. Which if you would actually do independent research into religions, you would know that these religions branched off from Jewish people's and tribes. Also you are forgetting about the Semitic Jews. I have one quick question. Do you even know what a Semitic religion is?

>>17710609
Humans of any sort were not around on pangea. And it didn't split because of fighting it moved because of plate tectonics. Stop trying to sound deep and mystic and maybe read a fucking book.

>>17710657
Doesn't matter, dude. Because of this:
>>17710622

>>17710657
Are you honestly denying that Judaism is based in other non-Jewish religions? I'll give you just a small hint: Know the Moses story? It was based off of one where a king wanted to impress a topless woman paddling a boat. She dropped a piece of gem in the water and he, lo and behold, parted the sea to get it for her. That's where the Parting of the Red Sea came from. 75% of the Torah and Bible are like that.

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>>17710667
Wow I don't even know what this topic is but if you have to nullify your whole conversation and transport it to other people's knowledge. Then chances are you don't know what the hell you talking about.

>>17710684
>Wow I don't even know what this topic is

The poster counter is still 10, friendo. :^)

>>17710684
lol... I posted that, though. Both posts were me.

>>17710675
That has been proven to be false actually. I see you watched zeitgeist as well.

>>17710660
There is a time before time yes? Nothing became something.

What if that nothing was also a something? At that time, we were nothing.

>>17710694
>I see you watched zeitgeist as well

Zeitgeist is proven bullshit, but it has the concept right. The example (and others) are objectively true, including the one I specified.

>>17710545
You never began to be a christian, desu. Christians know Jesus.

>>17710694
>That has been proven to be false actually.
Citation needed.

>>17710694
>I see you watched zeitgeist as well

Zeitgeist got tons of shit wrong, and no credible atheist supports it. I think it said Jesus was DIRECTLY taken from like, Egypt mythos or something, which is factually wrong.

>>17710545
OP I went through the same thing and at first I was really skeptical of everything, but then I began to find it amazing that all these religions have all these common features and instead of serving as an argument against them, it really is an argument for them. Think about it. The Queen of Heaven, for instance, is such a deeply held dogma in the human psyche that it will simply not go away no matter what religious garb you wear. It is really silly of Protestants to try to call Catholics Pagans for worshipping the Virgin Mary (and yes they do worship her). Likewise it is really silly of Catholics to deny this and pretend that they are the only true religion and, say, the ancient Canaanites were evil for worshipping the very same Queen of Heaven. But this where the ego gets the upper hand. It is a big part of their ego-identity bulding that Christianity alone is the truth and everyone else is wrong. (But make no mistake, I cite Christians because of my background but every religion is like that. try saying to a Hindu that their Shakti and the Virgin Mary are the same...)

>>17710675
The A) the Torah is a Judaic book meaning that it spawned from Judaism. B) the story you are referencing is believed to have occurred after the Jews left Egypt. C) believing that they must've based off of each other because of a similarity is like me assuming that you are based of an asshole cause all you do is spuee shit out of your mouth.

>>17710699
Meaningless blithering.

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>>17710699

>>17710545
Judaism stemmed from a polytheistic religion in which Yahweh eventually became the dominant "God", so any religion calling Yahweh the "one true God" is inherently false.

That didn't lead me to atheism though it led me to polytheism and eventually into gnosticism, and a personal sign from Jesus lead me to believe that he is definitely real, but only misunderstood as being Yahweh by mainstream Christianity, his true nature has been long since obscured and essentially destroyed by orthodox Christianity, but the Nag Hammadi Library has revealed a lot of previously thought "lost" information.

I'm still on my path to understanding but that's where I currently stand, I don't know if what I believe if actually "religious" or not, or whether I'm considered a Christian or not.

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>>17710713
Can you settle down and try to have an intelligent conversation, please? You're spiralling out of control, anon.

>>17710729
>Yahweh eventually became the dominant "God", so any religion calling Yahweh the "one true God" is inherently false.
names/reality

Other "gods" are only different expressions of God, in reality.

>>17710713
And what was Judaism spawned from?

>>17710713
The opal story with the topless woman is widely accepted to be the base of the Moses myth. Moses as a person was taken from other sources as well. I was going to source a video but >>17710637 already did.

>>17710738
True enough but the God of the Old Testament is not THE God, most of it is Jewish myth and fairy tales. There are definitely kernels of truth hidden within however, as there are in nearly all religious texts.

The only true answer to all of this bullshit is that NO ONE KNOWS OR CAN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOD/GODS/DEITIES/ETC. Anyone who claims to know there is or isn't truth in any religion isn't thinking clearly about their perspective in this universe.

>>17710756
God expressed himself through jewish myths and fairy tales. Humans can only express ultimate reality through myths.

>>17710675
this
also look at Babylonian religion. Had a deluge story before it was cool.

>>17710756
>kernels of truth hidden within however, as there are in nearly all religious texts

This is certainly reaching wouldn't you say? Aside from stuff people spin to fit a modern worldview what in any religious text is truth?

>>17710715
So a nothing that became something?

>>17710717
I believe Jayden just didn't have the right words to explain how he felt at the moment. Maybe I lack these words as well, but as you can see, I'm not mumbling. I think. Therefore I am.

>>17710768
Clearest among this group.

>>17710771
I believe God's subtle expressions were eventually transformed into myths by Jews, just like how his subtle expressions were transformed into myths also by Hindus and countless other religions, but in the end people get too hung up on the metaphor and myth and start taking it too literally, and then you get Pharisees and Roman Catholics and such.

>>17710777
All religions that people honestly believe stem from the same source that is the infinite God and attempts to come to understand the infinite God, I'd argue most religions carry bits and pieces of genuine knowledge but surround them with flowery human stories which often get misinterpreted and transform into the joke that is "theology" or "metaphysics".

>>17710768
This is an old and tired arguemnt. You only look at it like that because the religion we're talking about is so old, its so easy to just say "facts are cloudy, try again later". Imagine if people looked at Charles Manson like that 1500 years from now.

>WE DON'T KNOW IF THE MANSON IN THE SKY IS REAL, ANYONE WHO SAYS ANYTHING EITHER WAY IS'T ARROGANT

ect.

>>17710756
>The God of the Jews is real, but the rest is just Jewish folklore and fairytales

>>17710799
I didn't really mean specific religions. I just mean that no one can be certain, ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN, that there isn't a god of some kind. It's just impossible to know for sure either way. Obviously, ALL religions of any age are created by humans, just stories. But the ultimate reality of anything beyond our universe is entirely uncertain.

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I don't really believe anything. At least, I don't think I do. I just entertain thoughts.

I find it's easier that way. Keeps me able to learn things without being held down by them.

Although I have an animist streak, which I can probably chalk up to mental disorder. I feel bad even if I hurt inanimate objects, or by inaction allow them to be harmed.

>>17710816
>I feel bad even if I hurt inanimate objects, or by inaction allow them to be harmed.
I feel that way too! I used to collect rocks from the road and put them somewhere safe when I was a kid.

>>17710808
>The God of the Jews is real
Never said that

>>17710742
Sure as hell not the fucking Torah

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>>17710823
duh

>>17710823
No one is saying that Christianity isn't based in the Torah, Anon.

>>17710742
Pharisaical Judaism was spawned in captivity in Babylon by a deep desire to never again break the commandments of Moses and end up in captivity in Babylon again.

They attempted to manufacture a lifestyle of rules that if you kept, they would keep you from getting close to breaking the Law of Moses.

For example, the commandment is to keep the sabbath day holy, and to do no work on the sabbath.

The Pharisees had a rule to keep off the grass on the sabbath. Because if you did not, you might knock a grain off of a stalk and be harvesting; that grain might end up stuck to your shoe and you would be transporting grain; etc.

You can see where "Keep off the grass" and "Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy" aren't really playing in the same ballpark.

They devised these rules, they lived these rules, and these rules drove them insane.

>>17710772
Everything in Roman catholicism come from Babylon. Everything. Sun God Father, Virgin Wife and Queen of Heaven, resurrected son Tammuz, everything. The catholics just changed all the names, and kept all the pagan practices going.

>>17710785
The fact you had to add I think therefore I am just made me throw the argument under the table, you're clearly trying to sound deep when you sound like my brain dead classmates saying all the stars we see are dead

>>17710545
Nobody since the day of Pentecost has ever stopped being a Christian.

So you were either never a Christian, and are not one now, or you are a Christian, even though you do not "feel like" one now.

>>17710885
Not him, but how exactly would you go about refuting your classmates?

>>17710785
>So a nothing that became something?
No. Word salad.

>>17710868
Implying this is not what Gospel writers believed. Tell me, what if you were to find out that Christianity was really the religion of the dying and ressurrected god all along, what would you do? Convert to Judaism?

>>17710912
I would stay the hell away from Roman Catholicism, for sure. And their slightly less evil little Orthodox brother.

>>17710545
Figured that out by yourself, did you?

So how long did it take?

I figured that shit out when I was a kid in grade school...

>>17710980
Then you're as retarded as OP, as you have learned nothing as an adult.

>>17710912
Er, you know that Christianity is actually the religion of the dying and resurrected God, yes?

>>17710545
Maybe God inspired man to retell the same story ideas in different ways to pass information through the ages?

>>17711045
Uh, I know that. But Anon seems to think that there was a "true", early Protestant Christianity before the evil Roman Catholics and Orthodox paganized it.

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>>17710545

>>17711058
That makes Anon right.

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>>17710604
>>17710611

>>17710622
Similarity doesnt equate to relation

You misunderstand religion on a fundamental level, OP.

You begin with a leap of faith "OK I'm gonna try this Christianity thing sincerely" and as you adhere to it and pray the prayers and enact the rituals and begin to understand the parables, you realize it's an incredibly insightful system that seems to have everything right. The more you adhere to it, the more truth you see in it, until you're a full fledged believer. If you reach a high enough level, you can achieve intuitive knowledge of God that is as certain to you as "I think therefore I am".

According to perennialism, this experience of God and achievement of a deeper understanding of the universe is the end goal of all of the major religions. They're different paths to the same location, with different rituals, parables, and moral codes.

There's something to the bible I can't put my finger on. The way it's put together. I used to be a devout atheist, but the bible makes too much sense in a way.
So it may be based on other religions, but what if there was something to them, and Christinaity adopted that?

>>17711024

Surely your Jew deity doesn't condone such conduct, anon.

>>17711054
Maybe man created god to explain shit he didn't understand?

>>17711221
>but the bible makes too much sense in a way.

Like what?

The sense in the "all powerful, all knowing" "god" not being able to prevent two dumb ass humans from eating a piece of fucking fruit from a tree they weren't supposed to fuck with?

Maybe the sense of how "god" decided to talk to ONE asshole at a time as opposed to EVERYONE at once the way any non-retarded person would?

How about the sense of "god" rage quitting on the planet and supposedly flooding it, killing everybody, and everything, because the shit HE made didn't behave the way he wanted it to?

Where's the sense in anything in that stupid series of fantasy tales, anon?

>>17711264
>wow how could pigs build a house thats not even logical, and with only 3 of them? also, why didn't the wolf just eat them before they built the houses? how can you blow a hut over with just your breath thats totally impossible, the plot makes no sense

I was raised Christian. My faith faded as things didn't make sense and too many questions went unanswered. I wasn't satisfied with it.

Now I admit I have no knowledge of anything I can't experience myself.

>>17711275
>he believes the tale of the 3 little piggies as literal truth

>>17711288
That's probably because you were taught plebeian creationist literalism.

You can experience god for yourself.

>>17710562
This isn't necessarily a valid point...

>>17711298
>all religion is meant to be read literally
>the 3 little pigs belongs to a collection of parables, rituals, and moral codes meant to help the reader come across universal and metaphysical truths

>>17711300
>you were taught plebeian creationist literalism.
The wine is literally Jesus's blood after it is blessed, not just a symbol.

>You can experience god for yourself.
How? Prayers never got me anywhere.

>>17711314

So if religious books aren't supposed to be taken literally, then why in the hell should any claim of a "god" be taken literally?

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>>17711322
It's spiritually Jesus' blood. In Christianity the spiritual realm literally exists.

>How? Prayers never got me anywhere.
I think you were going about it wrong, or without sincerity. And now I think the well may be poisoned for you. Try another route?

I highly recommend you read the Perennial Philosophy. It was the first thing I read that convinced me something like God could be experienced directly.

>>17710605
You're an idiot. Google Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of the Iranians.

>struggle between good and evil
>supreme god
>supreme force antithetical to god
>god sends himself in human form to atone for sins of humanity

All of this at least 1000 years before Judaism became a formalized religion and 2000 years before Christ's alleged birth.

>>17711345
Because these truths came from God. They're divinely inspired. As you adhere to them and practice them with sincerity, you come to realize the truth in them. It's not something you can look at from an outside perspective and say "nope that's wrong" or "yeah that looks legit".

If you've ever practiced magick, it's the same concept. You have to DO IT to understand it fully.

Imagine we're in the Matrix. And prayers and magick are cheat codes or glitches you can take advantage of. Now imagine trying to understand the "true" world outside of the Matrix through experimentation with the cheat codes. They go against common sense sometimes, but as you practice and adhere to the systems, you learn more about "reality".

>why should I press up+down+A+B+L+R? that doesn't do anything, I'm not going to try it. it's stupid

Except obviously religion isn't that easy to follow faithfully. From what I've gathered, magick is better to use if you want to benefit within the Matrix, which is why a lot of people see it as evil and dark.

>>17711353
>the Perennial Philosophy.

Here's a better philosophy....

Humans lie to benefit themselves, and religion is the biggest lie of all.

Your parents lied to you.
You lied to your parents.
Your government lies to you.
You lie to your government.
Strangers lie to you, and you lie to them.
Your kids lie to you, and you lie to your kids.

What's so fucking hard to grasp about the concept of how some asshole lied to a bunch of other assholes about some invisible deity or 12? Some form of this lie has been told on every continent, by every group of people, to my knowledge, that has ever existed, and despite knowing that fact, people are still falling for that lie today.

You're all no different than the stupid scientologist fuckers.

>>17711368

I figured this is where the Jews stole their shit from....

>>17711383
You clearly have emotional problems. I'd worry about that before I worried about metaphysical truths.

>>17711380
>Because these truths came from God.

No, they didn't.

They came from assholes that CLAIMED they came from a "god", and you dumb fucks are stupid enough to believe it...

>>17710585
these are 2 very different things
religion talks about spirtual stuff and claims to know the unknown
while sowftares are just an object used by mankind

>>17711389

Yea, that's it.

I don't buy any of that ancient Jew bullshit because I have "emotional" problems. Not because it's all obvious horse shit and human fabrication...

>>17711402
Try it for yourself and see how you like it. Why not try magick instead if religion triggers you?

>>17711413
You're angry about something you have no reason to be angry about. Imagine if we were discussing music and I went ballistic and told you all music sucks and people only use music to manipulate other people and music is a waste of time and money.

Wouldn't you assume I'd had bad experiences and had trouble being impartial? Or would you say "yeah I guess I'm gonna stop listening to music now"?

>>17710545
i had some sushi rolls and udon veggie soup, and i have to say op is wrong.

there should be a progression and development of religion and spirituality as time goes on . there should be an evolution of spirit.
i forgot the rest of my argument because i am drunk.

have a good night, /x/!

>>17710709
actually no
ur parents raised u that way and thats it
if ur parents dont feed u bs when ur a little kid u would never go out of ur way to look up ancient fear based relogion and then actually givimg it a try

>>17711415
>Why not try magick

Because that's just as stupid as religion.

>>17711431
What have you tried that didn't work? Mind telling me how old you are? Just curious.

>>17711423
>You're angry about something you have no reason to be angry about.

Really?

Muslims murdering "Christians"....AKA, WHITE people, because of their stupid religion isn't anything to be angry about?

"Christian" televangelists defrauding dumb ass believers out of millions of dollars isn't anything to be angry about?

Politicians that cite their dumb ass religious beliefs as cause to enact, or oppose, legislation that impacts millions isn't reason to be angry?

Faggot Catholic priests taking advantage of their position to rape young boys isn't a reason to be angry?

No, you're wrong. There's plenty of reasons to be angry at religion, anon.

>>17711423
there are 2 very different things again...
they never killed anyone in the name of music for instance becouse its just that.
music.

>>17711431
There isn't a distinction between the two anyways.

>>17711064
lolno. you were all the same shit until about 500 years ago when trayvon martin luther decided to leave a cult to start his own. his version of the same bullshit spawned young earth creationists, mega-church culture, and liberal teachings of the bible. you're both shit, but i'd argue for the moment extremist protestants are worse than the catholics.

>>17711440

Old enough to understand how the laws of physics work.

>>17711456
True, anon.

True.

>>17710823
>he thinks the book wrote itself

Anon, the ancient Jews wrote down their religious beliefs IN the Torah, not the other way around. The book didn't fucking up and write itself.

>>17711453
Islam is a cancer, I won't deny it, but you're stupid to reject something as massive as religion. It's like rejecting science because of the atomic bomb.

>>17711454
So if people started killing others in the name of music you'd denounce it? Do you hate your country because people kill for nationalism? I'm not a liberal faggot, but you're speaking way too broadly. People kill for political philosophy too (Marxism, NatSoc, environmentalism). Do you hate politics and anyone with political beliefs?

1 Loue righteousnesse, yee that be iudges of the earth: thinke of the Lord with a good (heart) and in simplicitie of heart seeke him.

2 For hee will bee found of them that tempt him not: and sheweth himselfe vnto such as doe not distrust him.

3 For froward thoughts separate from God: and his power when it is tryed, reprooueth the vnwise.

4 For into a malitious soule wisedome shall not enter: nor dwell in the body that is subiect vnto sinne.

5 For the holy spirit of discipline will flie deceit, & remoue from thoughts that are without vnderstanding: and will not abide when vnrighteousnesse commeth in.

6 For wisedome is a louing spirit: and will not acquite a blasphemour of his words: for God is witnesse of his reines, and a true beholder of his heart, and a hearer of his tongue.

7 For the spirit of the Lord filleth the world: and that which containeth all things hath knowledge of the voice.

8 Therefore he that speaketh vnrighteous things, cannot be hid: neither shal vengeance, when it punisheth. passe by him.

9 For inquisition shall be made into the counsels of the vngodly: and the sound of his words, shall come vnto the Lord, for the manifestation of his wicked deedes.

10 For the eare of iealousie heareth al things: and the noise of murmurings is not hid.

>>17711459
Martin Luther's movement was about taking the religion as it is presented in the actual book the religion is based on, and moving away from the churches abusing the followers.

>>17711461
We are living in the Matrix. Use physics to prove me wrong or your argument has no merit. I'll give you a few minutes.

>>17711461
Can physics prove that we aren't living in the Matrix?

11 Therefore beware of murmuring, which is vnprofitable, and refraine your tongue from backbiting: for there is no word so secret that shall goe for nought: and the mouth that belieth, slayeth the soule.

12 Seeke not death in the errour of your life: and pull not vpon your selues destruction, with the workes of your hands.

13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the liuing.

14 For he created all things, that they might haue their being: and the generations of the world were healthfull: and there is no poyson of destruction in them: nor the kingdome of death vpon the earth.

15 For righteousnesse is immortall.

16 But vngodly men with their workes, and words called it to them: for when they thought to haue it their friend, they consumed to nought, and made a couenant with it, because they are worthy to take part with it.

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>>17710555

>>17711482
why do you insist on twisting my words ?
you know full well what im talking about.
why do you pretend otherwise ?
buddhism for example never demanded any deaths (to my knowledge) still im not a buddhist just becouse of this
killing a person for any reason is not cool be it political or religious
also if someone killed someone in the name of whatever music then thats just a nut
but how can i take a religion seriously that preaches about peace and love and then decapitates someone with different beliefes ?

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There is only one true god
And it's the beat, the beat, the beat

>>17711514
>buddhism for example never demanded any deaths (to my knowledge) still im not a buddhist just becouse of this
Then why not try Buddhism? Why are you rejecting all forms of belief because some sects of Christianity and Islam are insane? Why are you content not to search for higher truths? Why doesn't your standard apply to political belief systems?

Your hatred of religion doesn't come from a reasonable place, you're not even being consistent.

>>17711531
Not that anon, but I'll entertain your questions.
>Then why not try Buddhism?
Not interested in it.
>Why are you rejecting all forms of belief because some sects of Christianity and Islam are insane?
They all pretty much rely on ideas of something "supernatural" which could not possibly be known by humans.
>Why are you content not to search for higher truths?
No tangible benefit or results. No luck in the past.
>Why doesn't your standard apply to political belief systems?
Like political parties? I don't like those either. They're a way of separating people.

>>17711531
i do believe in god so dont mistake me for an athiest
but religious zealots make me uncomfortable
in a lot of discussions faith is the only thing that seperate the the athiest from the religious.
one believes in something the other does not.and there are no facts on either side
i refuse to believe in hell and stuff like for not loving jesus gets yoi in an eternity of hellfire.
but the fact that we exist makes me believe in a higher something common folk calls god.

>>17711557
How can you know if the supernatural is knowable/beneficial without trying to experience it yourself? Refer to my Matrix/video game analogy:
>>17711380

And political parties aren't as broad as "religion" or "spirituality". It's more like this person I'm talking to is rejecting the concept of politics altogether.

>>17711561
Religious zealots make everyone uncomfortable. But I do hope you reconsider your views on religion and spirituality more broadly.

Even from a strictly atheistic perspective, religion has the practical value of creating social cohesion, a shared morality, and a sense of meaning in its adherents.

The first thing that turned me away from atheism was actually viewing religion from a pragmatic perspective. I felt that materialism inevitably led to nihilism and moral relativism, so I could see how "deluding" yourself could be beneficial psychologically. I had to break down my instinctive disgust toward religion to be able to view it with sincerity. It snowballed from there.

>>17711589
>How can you know if the supernatural is knowable/beneficial without trying to experience it yourself? Refer to my Matrix/video game analogy:
I am >>17711288. Tried it and it didn't do anything for me other than bring fear of hell. Not much benefit I can see there.

>>17711620
Try approaching it from a more philosophical perspective. Maybe try a different belief system, so you have a fresh perspective.

>>17711612
good post anon im glad your not a freak.
>I do hope you reconsider your views on religion and spirituality more broadly.

you have my attention. would you care to share any sources i might start with to broaden my spiritual horizon ?

>>17711629
I don't think I can just simply start to believe in something. I can play through the rituals but not with sincerity. I've been spoiled now and don't see any way back.

>philosophical perspective
What do you mean?

>>17711645
>>17711654
Here's where I started:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mtzU9mVlk0

>>17711770
thanks anon ill check it out tomorrow i have to go to work now

>>17711770
I'm scared of the unknown. If this magic produces results in my favor now then who knows what else it could be affecting?

>>17711482
>It's like rejecting science because of the atomic bomb.

It's absolutely NOTHING like that.

Science is based on experimentation and direct observation.

Religion is based off of "this guy said "X" " with ZERO way of confirming or denying whether the dude was full of shit.

>>17711828
We're living in a matrix, anon. Physics doesn't matter and being stupid doesn't matter because I'm spiritually smart.

>>17710545

Why is revisionism enough to make you stop believing?

>>17710712
More than a hundred posts and nobody even responds to this guy.

Sad shits, the lot of you.

Mythology is mythology. I believe a power higher than myself exists. Call it God (or whatever), people like to fight over semantics and "God" is a pretty specific word in English that gets panties in a bunch real quick. I like Jesus, and Buddha too. Can't understand who wouldn't. Panbabylonianism is fun but not really a great compass for living a fulfilling life... And neither is the Old Testament. But it the end, (unless we can travel back in time) it's all

...mythology.

>>17711828
the truth is that your explanation of religion is actually the way "science" (as the propaganda that we know it as) works amidst society as a whole

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_John-Chapter-1/

anybody who truly wishes to know the truth of our life, begin to read this text for yourself which we believe to be a very accurate account of the LORD's teachings and I will pray that the Holy Spirit teaches you the spiritual things which converts the soul to the right path of the living God

Selah.

>>17711906
Sure thing. Whatever you say. I'll take the word of someone who's never done Science on a professional level a day in their life.

human pretensions v.s. the Spirit of the living God?

>>17711924
i've seen enough of what goes on in regards to public schooling and targeted public research and what we have all over our media and the internet

i would say a significant portion of the whole internet is a vessel of dissemation for the upper classes' "science propaganda"

the propaganda efforts probably came from the old USSR and have just kept evolving and perpetuating the spirit of error continually on and on as it does today

in one of the apparitions of Mother Mary in France (?) I believe (or Portugal), she warned about the dissemination of the errors in thought coming from Russia and communism in general, and i would bet that communist "collective research" propaganda was probably part of that and that is the same thing that is disseminated all over the internet and especially in the E.U. today

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politicization_of_science

>>17711949
perhaps the perpetrators are not the "upper classes", maybe the "international world bankers"

perhaps it comes from hell, itself. orders from hell that is

>>17710573
yeah, no. the gospels, the acts of the apostles, the various letters written to the different churches, etc...nope, those are original constructions. but you're correct that there is a thread of a belief in a deity that was interpreted/refined throughout different cultures. the old testament "admits" this as well. paganism was practiced by the hebrews before monotheism, so what?

>>17711454
What about 2pac and biggie...?

>>17711841

I would agree that you could define the subatomic world, as we know it, as being similar to a "matrix" of information, however, that's largely due to the fact that we don't have a full understanding of the sub-atomic world.

>>17711906

Religion...
> "Hey guise, I just talked to "god" on a hilltop, and he told me to tell you guise some shit"
>>"Oh, really? Can we go talk to him too?"
> "No, sorry, he said I'm the chosen one, and he won't talk to anyone else."
>> "Gee...really? O.K., I guess it must be true....."

Science......
> "Hey guise, I just discovered that if you mix charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate in this ratio, it blows up!"
>> "Oh, really? I think you're full of shit...."
> "Try it yourself, here's how I did it!"
>> "Well, anon, I tried it according to your method, and you're right."
>> "I tried it too, and it worked for me as well."

Big difference, anon.

>>17711488
Well, the numbers of pi extend to infinity.

So if we are in a matrix, how could the motherboard or whatnot calculate infinity? Every circle in our world would be a blue screen of death.

>>17712043
Because GOD, anon, duh.

>>17712043
>Well, the numbers of pi extend to infinity.

If you're talking about planck space, then pi could indeed be a finite number that we don't have the computing power to figure out yet.

Planck space is just stupid small....

>>17712036
I was being a poe, not being serious.

>>17711557
>>why are you content not to search for higher truths?
...
>>no tangible benefits or results. No luck in the past.
Can you elaborate, at all? Meditation and prayer have literally been shown to lower blood pressure, if nothing else. What is tangible to you? Did you pray for a million dollars? Did you end up hungry and destitute from searching for "higher truths"?

Why are you on /x/?

>>17711870
Mythology comes from the collective unsonscious, not divine inspiration.

>>17712062
>Why are you on /x/
Not that anon but it's because I'm fucking crazy. Gotta be.

>>17711561
"Hell" is not in the bible - if you've read the bible, and still think it is, you might have a spurious translation. Some superficial research would be beneficial to you.

On a similar note - "satan" comes from the Hebrew word "hasatan" which means "adversary". And it only shows up in one book in the bible - Job. Again, a little superficial research might benefit you.

>>17712076
And where does shitty poetry come from?

>>17712094
The Quran.

>>17712052
>stupid small
What's the word for 10^10?

>>17712076
>>17712100
So, Gilgamesh comes from the "collective unconscious"?

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Because of occult. I always felt something more.. and I was drawn to occult. I've no doubt whatsoever of gods or occult.. except for the obvious BS you have to watch out for.. and I disregard Judaism and its branches as slave religions


maybe reading pic related will .. entertain you.

>>17712117
I have no idea. It comes from the same place anime and cartoons come from.

>>17712131
also, yes, I am a Discordian, but I also recognize Eris' other aspects (how other cultures see her, some only focused on some aspects.)

If you want to know more Google her names :
Morrighan,
Freyja,
Isis

>>17712109

10 billion....

>>17712133
So... Daffy Duck is no different than the "Epic of Gilgamesh"?

>>17712258
Pretty much.

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>>17710555
this basically

I was raised atheist and I always like science and history, but you can't really understand history without understanding religion. I just picked a side.

>>17712149
Ten billion digits of pi. For every circle in the "matrix."

Do you have a compelling argument for the existence of the "matrix"? I'd love to hear it.

I became a Christian when I realized:

All other religions are based around man seeking God

Christianity is the only religion that God seeks man

>>17712276
I mean... If you believe that... That's your loss, kid.

>>17712288
You got that from that shitty poem about how that dude hates religion but loves Jesus.

I swear Jesus worshipers are some of the most egotistical people you will ever meet.

>>17712288
Where in the bible does God seek man?

>>17712292
Who "worships" Jesus?

>>17712306
People that believe Jesus is god, you retard.

>>17712316
..and who believes Jesus is God?

>>17712306
Trinitarians

>>17712320
Christians.

>>17712322
>>17712323
Both wrong.

I and my wife are one.... "I and the father are one"

... I'm not my wife and Jesus is not "God."

Some superficial research would do you well.

>>17712352
Arian shill detected.

>>17712294
genesis 3:8 - 3:10

>>17711488
you make a claim, you provide the proof.

Making a claim then demanding the other person prove you wrong is not how you make rational arguments.

I worship the old gods.

Not ironically or anything. The pantheons of the Romans and Greeks and Celts just make more sense.

If we have one god who is all knowing, all powerful, and all benevolent, why is such natural evil rampant on the planet?

Multiple gods makes sense. Evil gods and good gods. Gods that know and those who don't. The powerful and the lesser.

And I don't think the names matter. Build your own pantheon. Favorite gods from favorite cultures. When I need a little more hope I seek out a god that relates to my task.

It helps me keep my thoughts straight

>>17712410
I don't believe we're in the Matrix. I'm illustrating the limits of scientific materialism.

>>17712427
No you're not. You're demonstrating that you don't know the difference between reality and make-believe.

>>17712283
You write that as if it was an impressive number, anon.

You obviously aren't aware of how small Planck space actually is.....

The "matrix' is simply an analogy of how matter interacts with space at the sub-atomic level.

>>17712043
my computer, which only has a few gigs of memory, can produce some pretty convincing circles

>>17712427
no, you don't prove the limits of scientific materialism with dumb logical fallacies

>>17712416
Even pagans were ultimately monotheists. The old pantheon just represented archetypes, the recurring patterns that make up the universe.

>>17711236
OP is right whether they're religious or not. Saying something like that is retarded.

>>17712461
>>17712473
When did I say I was trying to prove something? I'm not claiming I have the system that brings absolute metaphysical knowledge. I'm simply refuting the claim that science is how its achieved, if it is at all achievable. Why are you afraid to acknowledge the limitations of science?

>>17711383
Not everyone is selfish and lies to everyone, anon. It sounds like you do, though. There's nothing wrong with believing in something even if it can't be proven. Just don't expect others to believe it.

If you act like a good person, it will benefit other people. If everyone did that, maybe we could have a nice world.

>>17712488
>you make a claim
>you demand evidence to prove your claim wrong

this is a logical fallacy and doesn't help your cause of showing the limits of science.

>>17712541
Let me rephrase it for you, since you're a gigantic sperg:
>We could be living in the Matrix right now and science wouldn't be able to prove it one way or another. Science does have limitations.

>>17712492
>If you act like a good person, it will benefit other people. If everyone did that, maybe we could have a nice world.

Agree, anon, however, I don't need religion to do that, and neither do you, or anybody else.

>>17712566
Science doesn't have limitation, anon, WE do, as people, and as a species.

>>17712574
He's right in that science can't disprove solipsism, but nobody actually takes solipsism seriously in a practical sense even if they bullshit about it, otherwise they'd starve to death.

>>17712574
If machines were doing the science, the same limitations would apply. It's a limit inherent to reality as we know it. My point isn't that the Matrix exists, it's that we would never know if it did unless something came down and told us.

>>17712584
Right, when you realize we can't be certain about ultimate truths like the Matrix (I'm clearly using this as a metaphor for a higher realm God resides in), you revert to pragmatic thinking.

In this mode of thought, you'll realize that religion/spirituality does actually have some practical value, societally and individually. From there it's not an exaggeration to take part in the religion for its social benefits and moral guidance while retaining in the back of your mind that it's always possible the Matrix exists. If you do this for long enough and with sincerity, you will eventually become a believer as you see all the wisdom the religion offers. You may even have a religious experience where you feel you've experienced the Matrix briefly, and you have difficulty putting it into words, but you have an intuitive recognition of it as the truth. As certain to you as "I think therefore I am".

>>17712605
>it's that we would never know if it did unless something came down and told us.

I don't agree with that.....

Our history has shown that we do nothing, if not create technology that allows us to answer questions we develop over time.

Give enough time, and motivation, we're pretty good at figuring shit out.

>>17710573
The only thing Roman paganism influenced Christianity is Basilicas, art, and the rituals of the Catholic Mass. Constantine made the churches to reflect the ALREADY MADE LITURGY

>>17712566
No, you're lack of creativity leads you to believe science wouldn't be able to prove it one way or another.

Just because you can't figure out a test, doesn't mean it's impossible. This is solipsism at it's finest.

>>17712605
>Right, when you realize we can't be certain about ultimate truths like the Matrix (I'm clearly using this as a metaphor for a higher realm God resides in), you revert to pragmatic thinking.
>In this mode of thought, you'll realize that religion/spirituality does actually have some practical value, societally and individually. From there it's not an exaggeration to take part in the religion for its social benefits and moral guidance while retaining in the back of your mind that it's always possible the Matrix exists.
When you explain it like that, I more or less agree this far.

>If you do this for long enough and with sincerity, you will eventually become a believer as you see all the wisdom the religion offers.
I disagree because that hasn't been my experience. I was raised Christian, gradually becoming a deist by high school and an atheist by graduation (I hate that label though, because while it's technically accurate as a descriptor it only says what I'm not). Not because of adolescent edginess (low church Anglicanism doesn't offer a lot to rebel against), I just started thinking for myself and questioning things. I think that there's some wisdom to be found in all religions but also a lot of harmful crap, and none of it should be taken as fact because all religions are created by humans to explain something that's fundamentally unknowable.

As for going through the motions, I do miss church in some ways but I still don't go because I feel it's hypocritical to stand up and read the Nicene Creed when I don't believea single item on the list, and disrespectful to the people there who do believe. Besides, if I want a transcendent experience I've always found it more reliably in nature, art or especially live music than at church (unless the organist is really good - Bach organ music is the best thing about the Reformation).

>>17712644
>The only thing Roman paganism influenced Christianity is Basilicas, art, and the rituals of the Catholic Mass.
And Christmas. Christmas is mostly Saturnalia rebranded.

Because when I repented I felt the holy spirit
Explain that

>>17712691
imagination

>>17712704
no

>>17712668
What kind of doubts did you have? Have you tried a different belief system?

>>17712691
The same shit that women claim when they talk about "womens intuition"......

I've seen some shit. And some shit accessories.

>>17710785
>So a nothing that became something?
so like Melvin the Mop Boy?

>>17712571
But it really helps, when it works.

>>17711612
So you're basically lying to yourself now to live a happy life ?

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>>17710545
>I stopped being Christian when I found out that it was based it older religions

Please don't tell me you actually believed Zeitgeist, that's been debunked a hundred times over.

>>17713406
Read a book, fucktard. It's well documented.

>>17711612
>I could see how "deluding" yourself could be beneficial psychologically. I had to break down my instinctive disgust toward religion to be able to view it with sincerity. It snowballed from there.

Interestingly enough, I hold the opinion that the majority of religious practitioners don't actually believe in the shit, but instead, just participate because they like the communal aspect of it, and it gives them a sense of identity and belonging.

That just goes to show how stupid we are, as a species, that so many have to live a lie to feel secure.

Because I've had weird shit happen all my life that lead me to where I am now in terms of religion.

>>17713589
Since you've given no examples I'm just going to assume you can't back up your own claims

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>>17710545
Why would it mean that the religion isn't true if it's based on older ones? If anything that would mean that they are all based on the same truth that has been known for some time.

>>17710545
>I stopped being Christian
>So tell me if you're a religious person: why do you believe?
God hears you crying. Just keep crying to him and he might do something about it.

>>17713698
>people are still this retarded after thousands of years of development

>>17713273

scientism and materialism are also a lie...

...a lie backed by a bunch of stuffy dudes in white coats where you can sometimes do at home experiments to verify some minor principles to some degree...

...but a lie none the less...

>>17713736

The way I can describe it to a hard-core atheist is that once technology is given to the public of the highest degree. One could call upon a "computer" that comes to analyze "subjects" that are us humans and rectify our worries and work for the good of all of us can be "activated" like a clap-on light by using the common motions and words of prayer.

I won't call them Christian if it leaves you buttbothered... instead of putting your hands in a prayer... maybe your hyper-technology fixing machine can be activated by simply tipping your fedora?

;^}

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>>17714003

Buying into religion is the most fedora-core thing anyone could ever do, and it's no different than LARPing.

>>17713652
I could, but I'm not going to the library for you since I doubt you're actually interested in learning, and it was years before Zeitgeist came out when I was actually reading about it myself. There is lots and lots available on the subject though if you're open minded enough to explore the issue. Maybe start with the sources cited at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology

>>17712094
teenage angst

>>17712258
>Daffy Duck is no different than the "Epic of Gilgamesh"?
You're joking, but the Looney Tunes writers were pretty smart, and Bugs Bunny is the Trickster.

>>17712712
>What kind of doubts did you have?
The usual ones I suppose. Trying to reconcile science with the idea of a personal god, and with all the conflicting religions in the world how to know which is the right one. So I came to the conclusion that religious doctrine was written by humans, and it's not possible to know, but whatever sort of god there may be, he doesn't seem to be directly involved in running things here on earth. Like I said I went to a pretty liberal church, there was nothing much to rebel against so it was a gradual process.

>Have you tried a different belief system?
Not as a practitioner. I've read about various other religions and I think there's something to be gained from a lot of them but I haven't found anything specific I'd really want to follow. If I did it would have to be something I could treat as allegory, not fact.

>>17710545
I'm Hellenistic Pagan because I've prayed to the Gods and they've actually answered with gifts to me. That's how I have the gf I have now, and how I'm not dead.

>>17714618
Do u eat her ass

>>17712082
Lake of Fire
Sheol
Gehenna
Outer Darkness

All in the bible.

>>17712082
Devil's in the garden in Genesis; devil tempts Jesus in the gospels; devil tries to jack up Job; devil's backstory is in Ezekiel and Isaiah; devil gets what's coming to him in Revelation.

>>17714792
But he has more words in his post and he wins and is smarter

>>17711459
Nonsense.

>>17714800
Damn it. I thought pithy was the way to go.

>>17710545
I believe because Jovehovah created stuff and I figured that should be respected and idolized, in my opinion

Jesus was cool,

>>17710545
>I stopped being Christian when I found out that it was based it older religions, and those religions were based in older ones, ect. To me, that's irrefutable proof that the Semitic religion (and the two that it spawned) couldn't be true for that one reason alone, not to mention all of the other stuff that doesn't add up. So tell me if you're a religious person: why do you believe?

It's not based on older religions.

Polytheism is based on worship of fallen angels.

"Zeitgeist" is wrong on multiple points, and anyone capable of true scholarship can see that.

I believe because God has intervene din my life several times directly and indirectly to save it. And He intervened through Jesus Christ to pay for my sins and save my soul. And He dwells within me in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Ultimately, God wants to be known through faith, and then He honors that faith by confirming His presence. He does not allow Himself to be "proved" for a reason.

I hope there's an afterlife, and not getting born again here

>>17717207
thats retarded.

>>17717207

Anyone who refutes that all religions are synecretic and incorporate elements from neighboring cultures isn't a 'true scholar'.

Believe what you like, but the Semetic religion is based on ancient Semite pantheism. The One God began as a Semite wisdom god. Do your research.

>>17717274
This is true, but Zeitgeist is still trash, It makes a lot of claims about the connections between religions that are ridiculous and false.

>>17717560

I won't argue with you on that one. Mithranism and Christianity did share links and competition, but a lot of their claims about dogmatic connections between the two cults are ridiculous.

>>17717117
Jesus never existed.

>>17717990

There's a couple dudes out there that make a compelling case that Jesus was an invention of the Romans in an attempt to combat the radical "Prophets" that kept popping up in Judea.

>>17718006
Richard Carrier makes a better case.

>>17718021
Is that the dude that makes the comparison of the new testament with the Josephus history of the Roman war in Judea?

>>17718029
No, that's Joseph Atwill.

>>17718050
Well, it's a reasonable argument, regardless.

>>17710545
>Story of me
>Devout atheist
>Extremely depressed
>Crying
>Decide to pray because why not may as well
>Nothing happens
>Keep praying
>Keep repenting
>Was praying but also using it as a way to vent my sorrows
>All of a sudden extreme feeling of peace falls over me
>Know God's actually real
>Know he loves me
>Can't help but laugh and cry from happiness
>Keep praying and what not
>One night i get peace again
>I'd been sinning and lost it, Knew i would but did it anyway
>Peace comes but all of a sudden I feel without God again
>Ask him where he went and what happened
>My thoughts get very muddled and i can't think properly
>Instantly feel a presence in my room, Never had anything like this feeling ever
>I reacted away from it before i knew it was there like a reflex action
>Instantly know it's demonic
>Asking jesus where he went
>Sort it out and sit up in my bed and say to myself
>My lord and savior is...
>Can't think of the lord own name somehow
>Wondering why my thoughts are so jumbled
>I say to myself again, My lord and savior is
>The name Lucifer pops into my mind
>I realize what's happening and start laughing
>God went away and that thing came so I could make a choice
>I say no way my lord and savior is jesus christ
>Intense feeling of peace over me again
>Feelsgoodman.jpg
>Laughing how Satan had the nerve to even ask me

And that's my story of how I became a Christian /x/, Don't fall for churchianity, Don't read the bible and speak at God not with him, Really repent and have faith and he'll grant you peace so pure you wouldn't believe it's possible

>>17718075
>be dumb ass
>decide to pray to some imaginary being
>convince myself said imaginary being responds

What is placebo.

>>17711380
93!

>>17712131
>>17712140
Chaoists, chaoists everywhere u.u

>>17712288
"Curse them ! Curse them ! Curse them !
With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.
I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.
With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.
Bahlasti! Ompehda ! I spit on your crapulous creeds."

>be kid
>parents tell you about Santa Claus
>look for him but never see him
>learn later they lied
>parents tell you about the Tooth Fairy
>look for it but never see it
>learn later they lied
>parents tell you about the Easter Bunny
>look for it but never see it
>learn later they lied
>parents tell you about god
>look for it but never see it
>hmmmm.......

People are so fucking stupid...

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>>17718075
Jesus answered my prayers too fami. I don't think organized mainstream Christianity is the way, there's too much Pharisee-like politics and law in all of it, but Jesus is absolutely real.

I think reading the Bible is good, but keep an open minds and don't limit yourself to the church's "canonical" texts, read the Nag Hammadi Library too, even read other religious texts also. Jesus left many traces of himself.

>>17718447
>Jesus answered my prayers

Allah answered my prayers on 11 Sep 2001.

>>17710545
>why do you believe?
You answered your own question, OP.

People believe in religion when that have literally nothing better to do or think about. It's not that you didn't notice all the other stuff that doesn't add it, you just never cared to question it. It was irrelevant. "Faith" just means trying to believe before you actually have any reason to. Most religious people have faith, not belief.

>>17718667
What about people who experience actual religious occurrences like miracles and such?

>>17718682
>people who experience actual religious occurrences like miracles and such?

They didn't.

>>17718682
Their faith played tricks on their mind, and we can no longer consider them people without adding all the normal Fae loopholes to our laws. Once they have the experience and have an emotional reason to insist it was caused by one thing and couldn't be caused by any other type of thing, that experience destroys the one part of their mind that cared to question all the other things that don't add up.

>>17718159
yep, nothing bad about it.

>>17710545
Because I had a few mystical run-ins with the holy spirit during prayer/ meditations a few years back.

>>17711514
>buddhism for example never demanded any deaths (to my knowledge)

-_-

>Implying state Buddhism in Myanmar doesn't persecute and kill the christian minorities of chin, kachin and karan as well as the muslim minority of the rohingas ...

And before you go " see, atheism is the noble route".

>Implying state atheism of the mexico of the 1920s didn't murder believers ...

Humans are dicks no matter what. Their faith is unrelated to it.

>>17710545

I believe mostly due to personal experience.

As a Christian who himself has studied religion thoroughly in a reputable academic environment, however, the history surrounding Semitic religion and Christianity only reinforces my belief in it as the truth. When you look at world religion, both presently and historically, from a fine-grained perspective, it becomes clear that Judaism and Abrahahmic religions are unique from its contemporaries, and when you look at the interpretations laid out by Christianity, you find a unique theology that ends up complementing Semitic religion.

From a high level of abstraction, there are trends between Semitic religions and non-semitic religions of the same time; however, the trends and commonalities that do exist do not translate into 'religious plagiarism' (as stated previously, the fine details of divergent religions truly are not congruent), but rather a corroboration of a shared narrative that would be expected if there truly is one God of all peoples. There's a sad trend right now where popular figures share (unsubstantiated and/or context-lacking) two-liners to support some radical rejection of mainstream religion; when you look to primary sources and apply critical thought, it's readily apparent that such cursory rejections are void of substance.

>>17718949
>my Jew religion is right
>yours is wrong

Well that settles it then....

>>17718974

More like

>I believe my Jew religion to be right and yours to be wrong

Put more sensitively, my experiences, education, and personal conclusions have made me, during the course of both life and study, believe Christianity to be true.

You're more than free to disagree. I have no power over what you think except to potentially cause you to consider another viewpoint.

>>17710545
Agreed religions are derivative and generally bleed back into Hindu traditions. Hinduism is probably based on ancient truths now lost to us. I believe in the higher powers because of evil.
Other animals will do harm to one another but it's generally for a simple purpose, to meet immediate needs. In the bible for example it talks about money taking us away from God, serving money is serving an evil master. As we have "advanced" as a species our capacity for cruelty has increased to completely unnecessary proportions. There is no need for Apple to make it's iPhones using slaves in the developing world, the top guys already have enough money to provide for themselves and their family several times over. I believe they are compelled to do so by the fallen nature of man, they've not realised the love of God or the tranquil beauty of nature and so they will try to fill this void with cash and to do this means hurting others somewhere along the line. A caveman would gather wood and stones and construct a campfire, one tree of thousands might be felled and that caveman and his tribe can eat one of the many animals in the forest with no impact. We turn on our gas fire stoves to cook our imported food, these resources were virtually extracted at gun point from the peoples from whose land they come from.
I think somewhere down the line something black whispered in mans ear and turned him away from the righteous path. Since then in our heart of hearts we have sought to return to our previous state of grace, most cultures speak of a dooms day, Ragnarok and revelations are famous examples. Even in contemporary culture we have things like the Walking Dead and the Road in which the world has ended. I believe that humanity is bringing about it's own end with nuclear weapons, over-sanitisation, war, over-consumption because we know we have fallen and wish to return to our animal like state.
I worship Baal and the Celtic Gods merely for cultural reasons.

>>17718813
I did, lots of people all over the world experience these things on a day-by-day basis, what makes it so that you can discard all of these experiences as false? You're just subscribing to materialist dogma, the notion that nothing can happen that isn't grounded in what we currently understand as scientific fact. In the same way some people call evolution heresy you call miracles heresy.

>>17719126
>what makes it so that you can discard all of these experiences as false?

Physics, probability, and the deceitful and manipulative nature of man.