KCON GENERAL

>>17674826
You can quit spamming this already.

>>17674828
I certainly hope anon prabhu doesn't stop. Then I'd have to start them. Besides, the whole point of the general is to contain the potential spam from spreading to other threads.

In any case, bump; I should have time tomorrow to tell some stories. I think like Vyasadeva I've made a mistake and only narrated around Krishna. Next time I'm going to focus on the 10th Canto and the adventures of Krishna directly.

>>17674828
Shut up some of us like it.

Do Hindus consider the universe fractal? I remember reading somewhere that each pore in Vishnu's body is a universe, then he enters into each universe as a new Vishnu, then out of each new Vishnu's navel a Brahma is born and creates a new universe, then Vishnu enters again into each new universe as a new Vishnu, etc. Does this process end somewhere?

File: mahavishnu2.jpg (258KB, 600x805px) Image search: [Google]

258KB, 600x805px

>>17676412
Not exactly, though some might say that. Fractal-like, but now I'm being pedantic.

With Vishnu, there are three Avatars called the Purusa Avatars. They are the plenary (fully potent) expansions of Krishna who oversee the material energy and its manifestations.

Karanodakashayi Vishnu (aka Maha Vishnu) – “The Lord who is lying on the causal ocean”. - The first expansion sleeps within the unmanifest material energy, or Causal Ocean. By His glance, the material energy is "agitated" and impregnated with conscious souls, and by His breath, the seeds of the universes expand out of His pores in creation, and are reabsorbed in destruction.

Garbhodakashayi Vishnu – “The Lord who is lying on the universal ocean” - Maha Vishnu expands into innumerable forms and enters each universe. From this Vishnu grows the lotus where Brahma sits, who is empowered to be the Creator of one universe.

Kshirodakashayi Vishnu – “The Lord who is lying on the milk ocean” - the third expansion of Vishnu expands into the heart of every living entity, and also every atom of that universe. This is the Paramatma, the Supersoul, "God in the heart," or a bit like Christianity's Holy Ghost.

Here's a blog post with more detail on avatar types and some quotes sourcing the info.

http://www.radha.name/news/philosophy/avatar-%E2%80%93-categories-of-incarnations

File: mahavishnu.jpg (253KB, 1276x1366px) Image search: [Google]

253KB, 1276x1366px

>>17676412
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD9og3ylAzg

Before you say, "hey this is buddhist" keep in mind that the adepts of both, wore red robes. Both took part
in deep.
meditation

But yeah, the Universe is fractal, do you see the Shaligram? It holds the ratio of beauty, which is self-contaning.

Self-initiation.

Bump

Here for a bit, willing to wax narcissistic on any topic. Will be browsing for a good story in the meantime.

>>17678085
haribol. I was wondering if you are an initiated devotee, and if so who is your spiritual master?

>>17678092
I am not initiated into parampara. Perhaps I could have been initiated if I had expressed interest in a guru with less strict requirements. ISKCON's initiation system is rather bureaucratic, owing to their global aspect, Western mindset, and past mistakes. Currently the GBC (governing body commission) will recognize certain devotees as qualified to initiate. These gurus are then free to set their own standards, so long as they align with Prabhupada's standards and GBC oversight.

I have a very strong desire to be the disciple of Sri Radhanath Swami. He requires strict adherence of the four regulative principles (no meat, no drugs, no illicit sex, no gambling) and minimum 16 rounds of chanting daily for at least 3 years before considering an initiate. Others require less time, some might be even more selective, and though I can't think of an example it wouldn't shock me to know of a guru considering someone a special case and initiating them before the regulations are strictly followed.

In my years at the temple, I cannot honestly say I strictly followed and so I would not ask. Though I did express my desire to him, and received words of encouragement (heh, encouragement from a guru, shocker). I left the temple before advancing to what I considered a sufficient mindset, and am currently in no position to be initiated.

File: 1451947008535.jpg (85KB, 466x715px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 466x715px

Hare hare.

File: india dragonfly.jpg (75KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 1024x768px

However, I will accept a spiritual master wherever I can find them. I will take the guidance of any person who will help me align my consciousness to Krishna. I have humbly tried to understand the teachings of gurus with tens of thousands of disciples, of a monk in Phoenix, AZ from Tibet who didn't speak a word of English but I swear NEVER slept for all the service he performed in that temple yet always had a smile that glowed brighter than the full moon. I learned from watching a man who conferred with Nelson Mandela and went undercover as a missionary in Soviet Russia die of lymphoma - shriveled and hoarse and weakly thanking his friends for being there to keep his mind on Krishna. I learned from pic related - a tiny bug who crawled out of a pond in Vrindavan to take shelter of me as its wings dried; knowing nothing of my nature, and giving over completely to my mercy and will.

Krishna and guru are everywhere, always with us, if we are looking. I will continue to try to purify my awareness, and perhaps later in this life or a next I will reconnect with my initiating guru.

>>17674826
Hey Krishna, what the hell with airports ?

>>17678152
Interesting. I took harinam in the Gaudiya Math (where the requirements are far more liberal). The standard ordered by my spiritual master was to follow ekadasi fasting and chant minimum 16 rounds. I will be pursuing Diksha initiation soon though the standards are much more strict. If you read scriptures such as Nectar of Devotion taking shelter of a sad guru is really the first step in bhakti so I do hope you achieve formal imitation someday. Based on what I have read about your practice and understanding of the philosophy I have no doubt you are qualified

>>17678192
Yeah, we don't do that anymore

File: Radha-Krishna Temple Holi festival.jpg (3MB, 3072x2304px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 3072x2304px

>>17678192
Lots of people passing by makes for a higher number of people who will take a book. Airports also can cause people to ponder existentially. Though past court rulings (and terrorist scares) have made access extremely limited now, so visibility and interest are better achieved through sankirtan at city gentrification strips.

Or lots of community-friendly festivals works too. The temple in Salt Lake City is lauded for it's approach of non-denominational festivals. I mean look at that pic. That's in UTAH. That's an hour away from Salt Lake City, and they get that reception.

>>17678208
Tell that to Brighupati Das Prabhu. Of the last 30 years, the only times he hasn't been at LAX has been days when the LA temple is throwing a festival. And I bet he skips a lot of those to go distribute books at the airport.

>>17678238
Some devotees are a bit too aggressive when it comes to book distribution, although their heart is definitely in the right place

>>17676588
Very interesting! How do the various Vishnus relate to each other? Are they like the Christian concept of one essence and many persons or do they have one mind?

>>17676900
How do Buddhists reconcile the beauty of nature with the rejection of the world as suffering and illusion?

File: avatar categories.gif (75KB, 1100x800px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 1100x800px

>>17678906
I feel it is closer to the essence/persons thing. The Vedas describe the various avatars as akin to the innumerable waves on the singular river. I always liked the analogy of Father, Coworker, Boss, Husband, Son, Friend, and Enemy are all very different characters that can be the same person, depending on how you relate.

The Nectar of Devotion goes into detail on the specific qualities of Bhagavan, including those qualities considered by Gaudiya Vaishnavas to be unique to Krishna.
http://www.vedabase.com/en/nod/21
As enumerated by Srila Rupa Goswami:

(1) beautiful features of the entire body; (2) marked with all auspicious characteristics; (3) extremely pleasing; (4) effulgent; (5) strong; (6) ever youthful; (7) wonderful linguist; (8) truthful; (9) talks pleasingly; (10) fluent; (11) highly learned; (12) highly intelligent; (13) a genius; (14) artistic; (15) extremely clever; (16) expert; (17) grateful; (18) firmly determined; (19) an expert judge of time and circumstances; (20) sees and speaks on the authority of Vedas, or scriptures; (21) pure; (22) self-controlled; (23) steadfast; (24) forbearing; (25) forgiving; (26) grave; (27) self-satisfied; (28) possessing equilibrium; (29) magnanimous; (30) religious; (31) heroic; (32) compassionate; (33) respectful; (34) gentle; (35) liberal; (36) shy; (37) the protector of surrendered souls; (38) happy; (39) the well-wisher of devotees; (40) controlled by love; (41) all-auspicious; (42) most powerful; (43) all-famous; (44) popular; (45) partial to devotees; (46) very attractive to all women; (47) all-worshipable; (48) all-opulent; (49) all-honorable; (50) the supreme controller

These 50 qualities are present to an inconceivable extent in plenary avatars. They are present to a limited extent in jivas as well.

>>17678977
(51) changeless; (52) all-cognizant; (53) ever fresh; (54) sac-cid-ānanda (possessing an eternal blissful body); (55) possessing all mystic perfections

These five are only present in Vishnu and Shiva, and on occasion they can manifest in Brahma.

(56) He has inconceivable potency. (57) Uncountable universes generate from His body. (58) He is the original source of all incarnations. (59) He is the giver of salvation to the enemies whom He kills. (60) He is the attractor of liberated souls.

These five qualities are only present in Krishna, and the Narayana form Avatars (Vilasa in the previous chart).

(61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

These four are considered unique to Krishna. The translated list does not do justice to the intimacy and sweetness implied in these passages.

>>17678930
Nature might seem aesthetically beautiful from an outsiders perspective, when it is in fact cruel, brutal and uncaring.

>>17678977
I recall Shiva being given an actual percentage in his parallels with Krsna. Are you familiar with that?

>>17674826
Yiff on Bro.

>>17679196
There is a quote from Prabhupada I found; he is taking the qualities from NoD and turning them into percentages.

> Lord Siva is also sometimes described as Bhagavan. Similarly, Lord Brahma, Narada, others are also sometimes described as Bhagavan. But real Bhagavan means Krsna. They are Bhagavan partially. All these things have been very much carefully analyzed by Srila Rupa Gosvami. He has analyzed in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, which we have translated into English: Nectar of Devotion. He has analyzed that Krsna is cent percent Bhagavan. And Narayana is ninety-four percent Bhagavan. And Lord Siva is eighty-four percent Bhagavan. And all other living entities, all living entities, we are, we are minutely seventy-eight percent Bhagavan. That means when you come to the perfection of life, when you are actually in the spiritual stage, then you are..., you have got the qualities of Bhagavan in minute quantity, but not all the qualities -- eighty, seventy-eight percent. These have been very nicely analyzed in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu.

>>17679280
Jay, this is what I was looking for

File: Shiva__small_v1_.jpg (18KB, 228x308px) Image search: [Google]

18KB, 228x308px

Story Time!! I was looking for the history of Salagram Silas since they were mentioned previously I have found a good source of the story in the Siva Purana: http://hinduonline.co/Scriptures/Puranas/ShivaMahaPurana.html (starts at 1.2.120)

Some time ago, Indra had the desire to visit Lord Shiva, and taking the sage Brihaspati with him, began traveling to Mt. Kailash. Learning of this excursion, Shiva wanted to see if Indra was worthy of seeing him, and so devised a test. He took the guise of a simple hermit, and sat down on their path to wait. When Indra saw the strange hermit, he immediately thought of all the boons he could get for honoring or giving charity to the man.

Approaching, Indra called out, "O Sadhu, who are you and where do you live?" The hermit, ignored the question and remained in trance-like meditation. "Perhaps he didn't hear me," thought Indra who repeated the question a little louder. Still no response. "Perhaps he doesn't know I'm talking to him," thought Indra who stood directly in front of the man and repeated the question. It's like he wasn't even there. "Perhaps he's a fucking idiot who needs to learn respect for the gods!" thought Indra, who's anger had boiled up. He summoned Vajra - his powerful lightning weapon - and raised it up to strike at the hermit.

Suddenly, Indra felt his arm go numb. It had been paralyzed! Shiva's eyes opened - flashing red with anger - and glared at Indra. Meanwhile Brihaspati was chagrined. He knew something was off about the hermit, but it had taken him too long to realize just who had met them. Everyone knew that just last millennia Shiva, disturbed and angered by Kama-deva, had burned away Kama's body with just a glance! He couldn't go back and fix Indra's blunder, so he threw himself at the feet of Lord Shiva and begged for lenience, compassion, mercy. Pleased by the intercession, Shiva diverted his deadly glance over the ocean.

File: Indra-and-Airavath-fighting-Vrita-with-Vajra-made-from-Maharishi-Dadhichis-Bone.jpg (49KB, 500x489px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 500x489px

>>17681016
But Lord Shiva is so potent, that even his glance cannot just dissipate. It struck the ocean where the Ganges submerges into it, and there formed a small child. Born of rage, the child cried and howled ferociously, such that the whole environment around him was filled with fear. Various celestial beings approached Lord Brahma to learn of this new disturbance, and he went to the shore to investigate. The sea deposited the baby into Brahma's lap, asking with mild curiosity what Brahma would name him, and what his future would hold. The child immediately reached up and yanked on Brahma's beard with such force that tears came to his eyes. Brahma declared, "As you bring tears [jala/water] to my eyes, I name you Jalandhar [bringer of water]. You will be a great king of the asuras, and you shall be invincible to all but Shiva." With this, Lord Brahma returned the child to the sea and left. The sea, joyful at a great future, took the child and raised him. Jalandhar had many great exploits, and grew powerful and notorious around the world. He took a wife, Vrinda, and did eventually bring all asuras under his rule.

Some time later, as the sage Brighu was visiting, Jalandhar mentioned curiosity on how Rahu's head was severed, and who did it. This led down a rabbit hole of exploits by Vishnu against the asuras: the killing of Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashipu, the deceit against Bali, and the trickery during the churning of the milk ocean so that the devas obtained all the resulting boons. Infuriated by these slights, Jalandhar immediately sent an envoy to Indra demanding the return of all treasures taken from the ocean (claiming inheritance as the child of the ocean), and calling for the devas to swear fealty to him, claiming their land originally belonged to the asuras. Indra, expectedly, gave a nice diplomatic response that conceded nothing and basically amounted to "Fuck off." So Jalandhar gathered his armies and warred against the devas.

The battle was intense and terrible, as celestial battles tend to be. As all do, really, but more so in Heaven. Soldiers on both sides were falling and dying. By the vast knowledge of medicine, Brihaspati was able to restore health and vitality to injured and even dead Devas, allowing the fight to continue. And on the other side, Sukracharya was using the coveted mritasanjivani vidya or "knowledge of eternal life" to do the same to the asuras. Eventually Sukracharya had an insight, and ran to Jalandhar. "Brihaspati's methods require the herbs found only on Dronigiri Mountain! You must uproot the mountain and submerge it in the sea. Your sire will prevent his access." Jalandhar nodded and with a display of strength impossible to convey in text, he ripped the mountain from the Earth and heaved it into the ocean.

The Devas were forced to retreat in dismay, and Indrapuri fell under the control of the asuras. The devas, having nowhere else to turn, took shelter of Lord Vishnu, asking Him to intercede and destroy the vile Jalandhar. Vishnu agreed to help, but revealed a devastating condition. It seems Lakshmi-devi - Vishnu's consort and the Goddess of Fortune - considered Jalandhar to be a brother. They had both been formed from the ocean, and so if Vishnu made any attempt on his life, she would abandon Him. And when literal Lady Luck (not to mention your wife) says she'll abandon you if you do something, you don't do that thing.

And so Vishnu went to fight with Jalandhar, not to kill him, but to force him to submit and obey. Yet no matter how hard Vishnu fought, Jalandhar would not back down, and seemingly never lost his vitality. Impressed, Vishnu offered Jalandhar a boon, who requested the Vishnu and Lakshmi reside in his abode. With this benediction, and the confidence of withstanding Vishnu's assault, Jalandhar was able to conquer the three planetary realms. And he actually made a good ruler; everyone was happy under Jalandhar...save the Devas.

File: parvati-lakshmi-and-saraswati.jpg (115KB, 366x488px) Image search: [Google]

115KB, 366x488px

The Devas then turn to Lord Shiva for help, who sends Narada Muni to ponder their situation. Narada is ever fond of trickery and letting people defeat themselves, and so devises a plan. He visits Jalandhar and after being well-received mentions in passing that while nice, Jalandhar's opulence is no match for Shiva's. Especially the opulence of having the right wife. Shiva's consort Parvati is what made Shiva look so grand, like the gold band enhancing the beauty of the inset diamond. What Jalandhar was really missing was the proper consort. Jalandhar became curious. "I've always thought Vrinda was rather nice. She's always praying for me. Who do you think would be the proper consort for one such as I?" There was no person Narada could think of to rival Parvati as consort, so the only person he could recommend...was Parvati.

Jalandhar took the bait, and sent an envoy to Shiva, asking that he part with Parvati. Shiva was a bit upset at this (doubly so since the envoy forgot the "ask" part and demanded Parvati to be Jalandhar's wife), and after some complication with a manifested rage creature trying to eat the envoy then being redirected to eat his own limbs he sent back the reply of "No." So feeling quite confident Jalandhar girded himself for war and rode toward Mount Kailash. As the battle waged, Shiva's forces began to take the upper hand. To counter, Jalandhar attacked with an illusion. He diverted the attention of Shiva and his ganas by the forms of apsaras and gandharvas (think angels and elves and other really really hawt magic women), and slipped away in the distraction.

Jalandhar disguised himself as Lord Shiva, thinking perhaps deceit the better part of valor, and approached Parvati. However Sri Parvati is no mere married person to be fooled by looks. She saw through his disguise immediately, and in matters of couples Parvati is Supreme. Her matrimonial sakti easily subdued the invincible Jalandhar, and forced him to depart.

File: shiva on nandi.jpg (58KB, 554x720px) Image search: [Google]

58KB, 554x720px

No responses? This is what I get for doing this in the middle of the US day. Ahh well, cont.

Parvati was incensed at Jalandhar's attempted trick. She went to Vishnu and described the what happened. "I want that scoundrel to be taught a lesson! I want him to go through what he tried to inflict on my husband! I impore you to go to Jalandhar's wife and dishonor her as I would have been!" Vishnu became morose at hearing this. But, sharing an understanding with Parvati I haven't touched upon, Vishnu saw it would be the only way to stop Jalandhar and reluctantly agreed.

He began sending dreams to Jalandhar's wife Vrinda to trouble her sleep. Dreams of death. Dreams of Jalandhar dying without an heir. Dreams of strange men? They soon overwhelm her and she wakes in the night, fearful for her husband. She heard a noise nearby and investigating in the forest, Vrinda came upon a sage and his disciples. Seeking solace, she offers obeisances and prays to him for protection over her husband in the wars. The hermit tells Vrinda he could arrange to bring Jalandhar to his hut for a conjugal visit without disturbing the events of the war, and she happily agrees. But when she enters the tent, the hermit stands and reveals Himself to be Vishnu. With a sigh, He disguises Himself as Jalandhar and enters the hut...

Meanwhile, far away on the battlefield Jalandhar had rejoined the battle and was facing down Shiva. Shiva had been perplexed as he knew of the boon that only he could kill Jalandhar, yet he found that the fight was even. Somehow Jalandhar was able to stand against Lord Shiva. Then, in an instant, something seemed to strike Jalandhar. He appeared wilted, unfocused, and bereft of drive. Lord Shiva didn't waste the moment and he surged forward, driving his Trishula into Jalandhar's heart and severing his head with a chakra.

(More after visit w/brother.)

>>17681613
I'm reading bro. Sounds like a baroque opera by Pietro Metastasio, with all the plot twists, disguises, couple switchs...

File: Selection_999(275).jpg (127KB, 879x442px) Image search: [Google]

127KB, 879x442px

>>17678977
when krishna descends, all incarnations are absorbed in to him:
CCAdi4.10
>pūrṇa bhagavān avatare yei kāle
>āra saba avatāra tāṅte āsi’ mile
"When the complete Supreme Personality of Godhead descends, all other incarnations of the Lord meet together within Him."

>>17676588
>Fractal-like
what do you mean by that?

File: srimati tulasi vrinda devi.jpg (440KB, 768x1024px) Image search: [Google]

440KB, 768x1024px

And back! Hopefully to a conclusion.

Vrinda felt pangs as soon as Jalandhar was fatally struck. In an instant she understood and whirled on Vishnu. "You wretch! You would tear a wife from her husband for your own aims? By any sakti I have left, I curse you to have your own wife torn from you so you too can wander in misery!" In grief and rage, Vrinda threw herself into the fire, taking her own life. Horrified, Vishnu accepted this curse, knowing it to be the seed for His separation from Sita as Rama-deva. Dejected, Vishnu took the ashes of the pyre on His body as penitent reminder, and wandered alone.

Far away at the victory celebration, the Devas became aware of Vishnu's absence. Learning of His melancholy, they appealed to Shiva who told them that this matter was under Parvati's rule. Shiva went to Parvati and appealed Vishnu's case to her. Pleaed by this, Parvati conferred with Lakshmi and Sarasvati and the three principle Goddesses each produced a seed for the Devas. The Devas were instructed to plant them in the pyre of Vrinda, and soon there grew three plants: Amla, Tulasi, and Malti. By using these plants in their oblations - especially Tulasi - the Devas were able to pacify Vishnu's morose mood.

Thus ends the story of Jalandhar and Vrinda. But wait! I said this is the story of Salagram Silas. Where were they? Well perhaps the Shiva Purana has no mention, but in Vaishnava tellings - which I believe comes from the Brahma-Vaivarta Purana, but I cannot find a good source - there is a hidden side to this story. This part of the story centers on Vrinda.

>>17681722
Almost done, will respond in a sec.

File: tulasi and salagram sila.jpg (33KB, 250x300px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 250x300px

You see Vrinda was a Vaishnava, and quite devoted. Perhaps the only person she loved more than Jalandhar was Vishnu. And as Vrinda's prayers to Vishnu were always for her husband's success and wealth, so Jalandhar was invincible in his conquests. Vishnu could have overpowered Jalandhar, but He could not overcome the wishes of His beloved devotee. He could fight Shiva to a standstill only because Vrinda's attachment to Jalandhar was as strong as Parvati's to Lord Shiva.

But wait again! How can we say Vrinda was as close as Parvati, when Vrinda was fooled by disguise and Parvati easily saw through it? This is the understanding that Vishnu and Parvati shared. This is the true heartbreak of Vrinda. And out of this the true curse of the Salagram Sila emerged.

Vrinda was fooled because though she loved and clung to Jalandhar, she understood her love ultimately resided in Vishnu. And so when Vishnu came disguised as her husband, she felt love swell within her. For the deceit, Vrinda cursed Vishnu to be torn from His wife; for the use of love as the tool, Vrinda declared Vishnu's heart to be made of stone, and cursed Him to take the outward form of stone. Accepting this curse humbly, Vishnu shrank to a small, black stone. Gentle Vrinda immediately regretted her outburst, and offered to stay by the side of the now-stone Deity. And so Vishnu gave her the form of the plant Tulasi, and vowed never to accept food without her. Thus worship of the salagram, and food offered is always done so with Tulasi leaves.

>>17681722
>when krishna descends, all incarnations are absorbed in to him
Thank you, this is to say it is more of a "one mind" kind of thing?

>Fractal-like
I mean there are aspects of the universe that appear to show the same pattern as you zoom in/out like a fractal, but the instances are too loose to fit the proper definition of a fractal. Fractals are everywhere in the universe, but I don't think the universe is a fractal

Well, I am a ex-Hindu
THere were gods roaming around in earth along with humans, and those demon like creatures killing humankind.
Where are they now? why dont we see them.
Is there any physical evidence?
Care to explain?

>>17684932

dinosaur bones brah

>>17684932
That was in the Satya Yuga, etc. In the Kali Yuga they have all gone into hiding and erased all physical evidence of their existence (they didn't bother with the literary evidence because they predicted nobody would believe in it anyway). Only high level Krishna devotees can see them now... After they die!

>>17683317
Never heard this story before. Much appreciate prabhu

Seems like a hard road for something so simple.

How does one find a guru for more esoteric practices? I'm very interested in vamacara but it seems that teachers are few and far between.

>>17687304
What exactly are you referring to?

>>17688292
He's right. Lord Chaitanya has made it so simple. Just chant, dance, grow your food and eat prasad. Turn your desire into your service. And yet it is the hardest thing in the world to give up the mentality of central enjoyer, controller. To stop acting for the ultimate benefit of the self.

etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavan mamāpi
durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ

>My dear Lord, although You bestow such
mercy upon the fallen, conditioned souls by liberally teaching Your holy names, I am so
unfortunate that I have no attachment for them.