Zen

>>17047759

Tell me 5 numbers from 1 to 50 and 2 from 1 to 11.

>>17047759
Zen
How you handle the Mandela effect?
I noticed that all the people who awake suffer this , but I don't see it on any religion text, do you know about it?

where do you think lao tzu ended up after disappearing from human history?

Why is shit brown

tell me a koan

>>17047779
1,2,3,4,5
1,2

>>17047855
He visited zen master Mazu and got 20 blows with a stick every time he opened his mouth

>>17047897
biology, m8

>>17047811
I don't handle it, because I'm not affected by it nor anyone I know.
these new age people who call themselves awake and talk about having some kind of mandela effect are probably just craving for attention.
The mandela effect is actually not related to zen, though.

>>17047928
An easy one for you, but a classic:
What's the meaning of the patriarch's coming from the west?

>>17048022
>What's the meaning of the patriarch's coming from the west?
It means that the patriarch went East. How did I do?

Serious question, what qualifications must one have to be a "Zen master"? Is there some kind of a test? If I go to a Zen master and talk, and he says that both of us have an equal understanding of Zen, am I then considered a Zen master?

>>17048039
>It means that the patriarch went East. How did I do?
hah, I guess it's a start. If you didn't know, the patriarch is bodhidharma (founder of zen). Now try again.

>>17048039
>If I go to a Zen master and talk, and he says that both of us have an equal understanding of Zen, am I then considered a Zen master?
Yes, that would make you a zen master. there is obviously no standardized test. it's barely even a qualification, since the distinction between master and student is... well a distinction, which zen teaches to abandon.

>ask a schizoid anything

>>17048128
>If you didn't know, the patriarch is bodhidharma (founder of zen). Now try again.

I'd have to guess that he was looking for some kind of wisdom that he couldn't find where he was originally.
But I'm confused. I thought a huge part of Buddhism was abandoning attachment. Might say that he came from the West in order to escape some attachments in the West, but wouldn't that be a failure in terms of removing attachments? Isn't the act of seeking something, whether it be goods or information, itself a form of attachment?

I also wonder about those who write about Zen or teach Zen for the same reason. Any insight?

>>17048145
m8, I believe you're making assumptions about me that aren't completely correct. I don't think I display any of the required symptoms.
You may ask me questions to find out.

I need to leave now though. But if this thread is still alive in about 10 hours and there are new questions, I'll answer all of them.

How does Zen affect daily life? Is there anything you know now or are aware of that you couldn't be without being a zen master?

>>17048180
Okay, but this is really my last post for now.

> I'd have to guess that he was looking for some kind of wisdom that he couldn't find where he was originally.

Nah, he is Bodhidharma, he was already enlightened when he came from the west, he wasn't searching for any wisdom.
He came from india (the west) to china (east) where he created the zen (chan) school and became it's first patriarch. All zen lineages claim to go back to bodhidharma.
This question may not be appropriate for you, I guess. When I heard it the first time, it went straight over my head, too. When you asked for a koan I assumed you have enough knowledge of the zen teaching.

> Isn't the act of seeking something, whether it be goods or information, itself a form of attachment?

Yes! this is very good, not really relevant to the question, but in itself correct. Zen masters like huangbo explicitly tell us that we need to abandon seeking and that any search is doomed to fail.

> I also wonder about those who write about Zen or teach Zen for the same reason. Any insight?

what exactly do you wonder? That people who teach zen are attached to information? If that's what you ask, I'll try to answer it: the people who teach zen should ideally be zen masters to do that. So they are enlightened, their actions are their natural expression of the one mind, no matter if these actions are cutting wood and carrying water, teaching zen or cutting cats in half. I hope that answers it, if not I'll clarify anything you want when I'm back.

>>17047855
He just went off into the woods.

I also remember reading some kind of thing about how the Taoist WuDang were given a sword and went to live in nature when they reached the highest level.

I'm back.

>>17048189
>How does Zen affect daily life?
True zen doesn't affect it that much.
There's the saying "before enlightenment chop wood, carry water; after enlightenment chop wood, carry water"
But as your perspective changes, you behaviour may change along with it.
If you practice one of the more retarded versions of zen, it does affect it though, because meditating 10 hours/day will kill your social life.

>Is there anything you know now or are aware of that you couldn't be without being a zen master?
As huangbo says: "I truly attained nothing from complete unexcelled enlightenment"
there's nothing to attain by enlightenment, not even knowledge. if you gain anything form it, it's not true enlightenment.

File: what a twist.jpg (26KB, 560x458px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 560x458px

>Zen master

What would be your response to people on the path that say that Zen is a topical philosophy that actually serves little to no purpose for the advancement of the student along the path of self-realization?

pic related

>>17050341
>What would be your response to people on the path that say that Zen is a topical philosophy that actually serves little to no purpose for the advancement of the student along the path of self-realization?
They're right, but for the wrong reason. They think there is something to attain, something to advance towards, that's delusional thinking. Of course, zen doesn't help you to advance, because the concept of advancement is already wrong thinking.
I also wouldn't call zen a path of self-realization.

>>17050283
>>17050362
forgot trip, so I'll just prove that I'm the guy from yesterday

what is the fucking difference between natural zhine and ultimate zhine

this shit is vague as fuck mate

>>17050366
>what is the fucking difference between natural zhine and ultimate zhine
That seems to be some tibetan yoga stuff, sorry not my field of expertise at all.
Maybe someone else can answer this.

It also seems to be related to meditation, which I neither practice nor teach. This may surprise some people, since the common view is that zen is about meditation (because most modern schools teach it that way), but actually, most good zen masters reject any kind of meditation practice.
At least when practiced for the purpose of enlightenment, it is useless. If you just do it for your own enjoyment, keep doing it.

>>17047759
How do I zenzen

>>17050374
>most good zen masters reject any kind of meditation practice.
what why?

>>17050384
You can look for yourself, read mazu, huangbo, zhaozhou. all of them reject it.
huangbo calls teachings about meditation "words to attract the dull of wit"
There's also a famous story about mazu and his teacher:

>Huairang asked Mazu the reason for his long bouts of dhyana [meditation practice].
>Mazu: "I want to become a Buddha, an enlightened being."
>Saying nothing, the master quietly picked up a brick and started rubbing it on a stone.
>Curious after watching the master for a while, Mazu: "Why are you rubbing that brick on a stone?"
>Huairang: "I am polishing it into a mirror.'
>Mazu probably knew by this time that he had been set up, but he had to follow through: "But >how can you make a mirror by polishing a brick on a stone?"
>The master: "How can you become enlightened by sitting in meditation?"

Obviously, they not only reject meditation, but all methods of attaining enlightenment.
Zen is the gateless gate, we don't teach methods.

>>17047759

So you went on 4chan before being a Zen master. Now you are a Zen master and on 4chan. What has been accomplished? Do you now have some deep understanding of formal logic? Can you participate in high level philosophical debate? How has this benefitted you in any way?

>>17050381
how to into zen: You must find the non-discriminatory mind
without departing from the discriminating mind

>>17050283

>There is nothing to attain from enlightenment.

So it's like, the experience has shifted?

>>17050283
So why d it at all?

>>17050416
>Do you now have some deep understanding of formal logic?
I have no extraordinary deep understanding of formal logic.
Between logic and zen there's no connection. Zen goes beyond logical thinking, but does not teach you anything new about logic.

>Can you participate in high level philosophical debate?
Zen is not about debate, because zen is not a philosophy and certainly not about concepts.

>What has been accomplished? How has this benefitted you in any way?
nobody has ever accomplished anything in zen
there's nothing to gain from enlightenment
accomplishments and benefits are merely concepts of the discriminatory mind

>>17050445
So why should/would anyone do it at all?

>>17050441
This is the what the classical question "What's the meaning of the Patriarch's coming from the west" asks. Why the fuck did this old indian guy come here, just to teach that there's nothing to attain and nothing to gain from his teaching. He came to china, pointing directly at our mind.
What do you think, why did he do it?
If you want some personal gain from it, don't study zen, you won't be successful anyway.

>>17050422
>So it's like, the experience has shifted?
Yeah, but describing it is very hard. Everything is your natural mind, there's no good or bad, there's nothing to be gained in life. There's no independent reality to anything, not even your mind.
This sounds much, but it's actually really subtle.

Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?

>>17050450
Why do you do anything at all?

>>17050520
no

>>17050546
why though

>>17050548
if you had a dog, where would you search for it's buddha-nature?

File: Screen Shot 2015-12-06 at 10.57.04 PM.png (255KB, 344x517px) Image search: [Google]

255KB, 344x517px

i read picture related and <spoiler> siddartha </spoiler> what should i read next?

>>17050618
Well, are you into Buddhism or Zen?
If you want to read actual Zen texts, Sun-Face Buddha is nice, in my opinion.
It contains the record of mazu, his sermons and dialogues and also dialogues of his students including nanquan and layman pang.
The most clear description of the zen teaching is huangbo though (book is called "The Zen Teachings of Huang-Po - On the Transmission of Mind").

>>17050420
so it's the same thing as dealing with grasping and aversion as in buddhism?

>>17050374
>most good zen masters reject any kind of meditation practice.
0/10

>>17050700
yes

>>17050713
there are books from old chinese zen masters. read them and see for yourself.
I know japanese "zen" is different in this aspect, Dogen and his followers. But the teachings of these guys is so much different form the original zen teaching of the chinese masters, that it can barely be considered zen at all.

>>17050563
in myself

File: rerere.png (428KB, 707x618px) Image search: [Google]

428KB, 707x618px

>>17050846
*********

>>17050713

He's correct... meditation is usually far too much desire and intention to be considered zen...

I used to meditate but that was long before I understood being zen. It's introductory material before finding the real gem that is zen.

I could see someone finding zen first by fluke then finding meditation and needing it, but I consider meditating a very adolescent phase of workout before the giant monstrous unflinching beast that is zen.

>>17050857
so do you both think zazen is floop?

What do you do for a living OP?

>>17050862

I just don't seem to ever want to do it personally.

I consider the short phase in bed before I sleep plenty of meditation time.

For me I think there was a phase where I merged meditation into daily living so much that every moment became meditation, never losing the "zen", "enlightened" feeling which lead to some very groundbreaking physical experiences (wild animals coming up to me and making contact for example, only poisoned by humans nearby wanting to record it and spoiling the moment)

>>17047759
ok so tonight a few friends and I were transferring energy to and from one another ( it was my first time doing such a thing ) and one of the people I met earlier that night got really freaked out from sharing energy with me, said i was drawing him in like a black hole and that it didnt feel very good at all, then he took his crystals and left.
what could have scared him like that ?

any answers will help

>>17050929
Well I guess he felt that you were drawing him in like a black hole. That's what scared him.

I mean come on. You do energy work and pretend not to understand him? I don't believe you.

>>17047759

How do you pronounce 'tao'?

>>17050936
no I don't do energy work it was my first time Ive tried it and Ive always been a slight skeptic

>>17050945
Then I can tell you, that nobody can give you a correct answer. If you go on with it you will certainly find out about it. Through your own experience with it. And experience cannot be given.

>>17050953
ok thanks i guess...
Is the any reason why my energy would be pulling so much?
does that kind of stuff happen often?

>>17050970
See, that's a blind assumption if you would ask if it was pulling.

If my pull is bigger than yours you are going to be pulled. If your pull is bigger than mine I would be pulled.

He is clearly struggling with something. But we cannot know with what. And by any means I could know even less than you.
There is only one way to find out for you. And that is further direct contact with him.

Were you initiated? How was that?

>>17047759
son jumped over his father

can you help?

>>17047759
Who was phone?

Humble greetings, I have 2 things I wanted to ask. First is how can we be sure that zen itself is not another product of the "buy and sell" path, by that I mean a belif that was sold to us to ease our fear and insucurites? Second is, how to be sure whenever I dwell in the astral planes or just the illusions of our minds?

Well, so far I've learned that there is nothing to gain through zen, nothing is special about enlightenment, there's no reason to get into zen, zen masters find meditation boring, and the only thing zen really is about is using faulty logic to talk about koans which have no real meaning but are given meaning by zen people, like how artists can ascribe meaning to a white canvas. And they don't do it for entertainment, or to better themselves, or anything like that, but just because it's zen. Which is to say that the whole thing is useless, purposeless, formed with bad logic, and just draws in suckers who buy into the idea that whatever you enjoy in life MUST be bad for whatever reason, even if they can't rationally explain why.

Did I get it right, OP? Does that make me a zen master too?

Well if someone is selling a blank canvas then he is still selling.. I just think that everyone has his own zen , and it shouldn't be taught rather then just embraced.

>>17051479
It's a method for living. Your life is a sham because you try to do a million things at once and do all of them with half your heart. Honestly OP is not very good at explaining the benefits of zen practice; of course if zen didn't make people feel better nobody would bother, but the whole "no attainment" thing, which barely even translates into our language, is deeply ingrained to the practice. Any "master" coming on 4Chan to talk about having wild animals coming up to him in the forest is a fraud. Does he not know the story of the holy monk who was brought flowers by the birds, until he experienced satori?

Zen is pretty much just mindful living wrapped up in a big ol inside joke, and the joke is your whole existence.

>>17050942
like thou (as in thou shalt not) but with a hard T instead of a th sound

>>17050862
it won't get you one step closer to enlightenment.
if you want to sit, sit.

>>17050868
I program robots.

>>17050929
None of this is related to zen, I can't help you

>>17050942
maybe search for a video of someone saying it, that would probably be more helpful than asking me

>>17051411
who needs help?

>>17051425
Mazu shouting in your ear

>>17051464
Zen doesn't have anything to sell. We don't promise you heaven or threaten you with hell.

>>17051479
>only thing zen really is about is using faulty logic to talk about koans which have no real meaning but are given meaning by zen people
no faulty logic, you just don't understand it, because you can't go beyond your discriminatory thinking.
Zen is about seeing into one's nature, but this description usually confuses people. There is no independent self, nobody to see or to be seen.

>just draws in suckers who buy into the idea that whatever you enjoy in life MUST be bad for whatever reason
that's retarded, zen is not about stopping you enjoyment of life. You confuse it with some other kind of buddhism. The old masters didn't teach asceticism. Zen doesn't have a moral code. Zen master Nanquan cut a cat into pieces to get a point across.

>And they don't do it for entertainment
Oh, many do, actually. That's why zen masters like to play tricks on eachother and test each others understanding. Layman Pang is a nice example of this.

>Did I get it right, OP? Does that make me a zen master too?
nah, you're still very confused by your discriminatory mind.

Thanks.. But ya missed the astral planes qeastion^^

>>17051557
>the benefits of zen practice
what practice? what benefits?

>>17051632
astral planes have nothing to do with zen, you'll need to ask someone else, sorry

Then I have my answer, just wanted to see you're response

>>17051642
okay, but what have you been asking, if I may ask?

I was checking to be honest, I have met to many of self proclaimed ones

File: epic_fail_guy.png (6KB, 256x256px) Image search: [Google]

6KB, 256x256px

>>17051597
>like thou (as in thou shalt not) but with a hard T instead of a th sound

>>17051623
>maybe search for a video of someone saying it, that would probably be more helpful than asking me

I thought the tao that can be spoken is not the true tao...

>>17051679
>I thought the tao that can be spoken is not the true tao...
hah, nice tao banter

File: taoelfaight.gif (4KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 400x400px

>>17051698

Let's get serious. Teach me about the way of the tao.

>>17051710
do you confuse me with some taoist sage?

Is Tao the equivalent of God?

>>17051743
no, there is no concept equivalent to the christian concept of god in neither zen nor taoism.

File: 2f9.png (32KB, 754x288px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 754x288px

>>17051723

Then just start me on the path of the tao.

>>17051759
You may ask me questions if you want, I can't do much more than answer questions over the internet.

>>17051743

God the noun, or god the verb?

>>17051799

I don't know any more tao jokes, so that's fine.

what does being awake mean?

>>17051623
who needs help? - invalid

>>17051819
>what does being awake mean?
you mean awake as a synonym for enlightened?
Finding the non-discriminatory mind without departing from the discriminatory mind, is a description I like.
Seeing your own nature is also valid.

>>17051635
If someone were to observe your habits and (somehow) mindstate before and during your current state of zen mastery, they would observe differences that could be perceived as a "practice" and "benefits." Come on man. I really think you know what I mean, and I get that it's funny when you're in on the joke to play with words and confound other people, but you're not pointing at the moon here. You're jerking off with semantics.

File: Watkin Tudor Jones.jpg (9KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 480x360px

>>17051891
I've seen my nature, and had to laugh. Then I cried.
Now I'm empty, while everything is full.

File: 1445456883992.jpg (35KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 480x360px

>>17051597
>>17051679
It's "Dao." Jesus Christ guys.

>>17051156
ok thanks brosef

yeah he did seem to have baggage

>>17051944
My estimation is, that he needs somebody to speak to. But he must come by himself. I believe he will do so when he realizes the offer to speak freely is present.
This kind of energy work is done everywhere and at all times during ones active time of existing.
Some are more aware of it, others are less aware of it.
Even in these chats it is done.
It's all about form and content.

Help him get rid of his baggage and he will show you what energy work is.

I got 50% from my history class who was taught by someone who is very fond of Zen principle, did I do good?

>>17051981
I dont think that it will be possible as he is moving away in the next 3 weeks

>>17052369
Then I fear for this mans life.

>>17052582
I dont think its that dramatic to be honest...

>>17052826
Then I fear for all of our lifes.

>>17052852
do you think he could have been playing possum to make out like ive got bad vibes and shit ?

how long does it take you to do the dishes?

Why are you lying to us?

Do you work with colors

>>17052970
Don't obsess over it. Some people just don't click, that's it. It doesn't mean you are evil. Even if you are "evil" to him, so what? "Good" and "evil" are human concepts that only serve to get us further away from anything worthwhile. Let it go.


Hey OP, why no answer for me? Didn't you get initiated? Do you take part in the moon ceremony with other taoists or are you a loner? Have you found your dantian and if so, do you perform any exercise to "strengthen" it?

>>17052348
yeah, damn close to being a master there

>>17053061
Depends on how much there is to wash. In the morning, when it's just a plate and a knife, it doesn't even take a minute. When I cooked something nice, it usually takes longer (I have no dishwasher and usually dry my stuff too).

>>17053689
>Why are you lying to us?
where did I lie?

>>17054152
>Do you work with colors
in relation to zen? no

>>17054478
>o you take part in the moon ceremony with other taoists or are you a loner?
I'm not a taoist, I don't take part in taoist ceremonies.

>Have you found your dantian and if so, do you perform any exercise to "strengthen" it?
this is also taoism
You're confusing Zen with taoism.

>Hey OP, why no answer for me? Didn't you get initiated?
I over read it, there were kinda many responses at that time.
There is on initiation in my lineage, just the direct transmission of the teaching, but that's not something anyone would call initiation.

OP, bravo is realizing Zen and Sunyata, I can see it by your answers that you've encountered kensho, as I can sense my same realization in you. Though, you must cultivate deeper skillful means to transfer the dharma transmission. You are obscuring the gateless gate by saying there is not a gateless gate, thus giving dualism between existing and non existing, meaning and non meaning, benefit, no benefit, etc. Cultivate deeper, and abstain from proclaiming your a zen master, because theres potential that conceit can follow with such assumption, and how can zen have a master? proclaiming such thing is contradictory to zen. The best means to describe Zen in the most conventional way is "That its a practice of deconstruction of illusions." There is no thing to gain, but alot to lose, which leads to the realization (that I see in you) that there is neither gaining or losing, thus is the middle way. I do congratulate you, and it would be interesting to have a dharma friend.
ALSO TO READERS
Study Chan before Zen.

>>17050929
He's just a little bitch

>>17047759
I don't think reading a wikipedia article on zen buddhism makes you a "zen master".
But who am i to judge really...
OP's a faggot nonetheless.

>>17057187
not OP, but how may I study this?

captcha, trees.

>>17057435
I like this answer

What is Zen?

>>17057511
Seriously, so many of those whiny little faggots can't control their own energy, so they place the blame on others. It's annoying as fuck cause their minds create a false sense of exactly what this guy was talking about, i.e: being sucked into a black hole, and then they run with it and make it worse in their head. They don't have any control and have this idea that their colorful crystals hold all of the power. The point is to be unmoving. Still. In control of your own energy. The point of energy work and meditation is to be in complete mental control over any situation regardless of how your mind may skew your perception. Finding the balance. If someone can't handle their energy, then this is how they are going to act. Like a little bitch haha ;) "Oh, my perception said that you are sucking my energy away, so I'm going to COMPLETELY throw the vibe off, put my insecurities unto you, and cry about it by myself with my crystals at home.."

well, damn. I came here to call OP a faggot, but after reading this thread, I am pleasantly surprised by the quality of this discussion. I do question you referring to yourself as a "master" but hey, whatever works for you.

>>17057595
yeah that dude had a "special " crystal, he even gave it a fucking name..

in the next few days everyone is hanging out again so theres a good chance we'll do more energy work so ill keep you guys posted

>>17057505
Chan is called the meditation school. So first you got to learn to meditate. Samatha cultivation and practice is vital, it gives a good foundation to work on vipassana and insight. Get acquainted with Theravada, Madhamayaka, and Yogacara doctrine. Study all the great masters and their teachings (Bohdidharma, Haiku, Bankei, Ta Hui, Mazu Daoyi, etc) They will give you wisdom on what zen is not. Hua Tou is a very uncommon practice brought to life by Ta Hui, I Recommend this as a means. it involes a combination of vipassana, koan, and Samantha, a really beautiful combination. Koan is supposed to be the fastest approach to insights (into sunyata, mind, phrnonenon, etc), Hua Tou is THE BEST method. Zen/Chan is literslly the practice of deconstruction misconceptions and illusiobs. Insight into sunyata breaks the illusion of self and others, for example, and such insight destroys the seed of karma before sprouting up again.... Eventually, when you see "The Way", that is like being on a string. You can no longer rely on zen masters words or general concepts. you can either take the knife (of zen) outside of your head and die, ir continue on and become medically healed by a physician(insight) its honestly scary, realizing some insights, because you realize how empty and just perfectly surreal life is.... anyway, hoped this helped, if you need any mrew help lemme know

practice smatha, vipasaana, koan, and huatou. Thats all you need. Words only can give way to words, only concepts give rise to concepts. don't become trapped in words, do not look for the way within words. Zen is conceptless, requires no thinking, no mind. don't worship anything, nor condemn it. Don't hate, nor love. develop equanimity. see reality as it is. so is the heart of Chan teachings, and the middle way of The Buddha

Also, the heart of Zen and Chan is the lankavatara sutra.

>>17050404
But that is wrong. Meditation is obviously praised by the early masters. When he was asking how one can become enlightened by seeking, he was not condemning meditation, but the act of it being a means to an end. he challenged the concept, the illysion, of his student, bringing doubt upon. he was introducing insight into his practice through the skillful use of doubt. he is no longer sitting anymore; he is now not-becoming!