Demiurge

>Demiurge
>Not true God

Yeah buddy, that about sums it up.

In Gnosticism there is the Monad, which is complete unity.
From the Monad we have the Diad [Diode], which is similar to Karma or Logos; the driving force.
Then there are the Archons.
The Demiurge is 1 of 7 Archons, and the one that created the others, albeit unintentionally... or at least it didn't understand what it was doing in its entirety.
The Demiurge is the Lion-faced or Gorgon-faced Serpent-tailed Winged Archon of Chaotic Creation.
Ordered Destruction and Unity, via the Diad [Diode] is it's opposite and creator.
The Monad however is the highest.

>>16971170
Interesting philosophical quandary but ultimately unknowable.

>>16971219
Wrong.
See:
>>16971215
Mythology and interpretation is almost always known.
It's a written or oral tradition created by people, therefore all concepts are known or at least were known, unless the story itself was incomplete.
The story of the Demiurge is known in full and fully understood.
Planets, the Sun and Moon where interpreted as the early representatives of the Archons.
Demiurage was the highest of the Archons, but the Archons were not the highest of entities.

>>16971215
There are various other groups who have duelist beliefs like that of the Gnostics.

Like the Cathars. The believed that the Demiurge is Satan, who is also the god of the old testament. The god of the New Testament is the real God and a separate entity from the Demiurge.

>>16971237
The Cathars were Gnostics, but they were Christian Gnostics.
As were the Ophites.
In fact, the Cathars were Ophite copy cats, and the Ophites were Jewish Mysticism copy cats, and Jewish Mysticism copy cats were Sumerian copy cats, and eventually you get down to Neolithic Syncretic Gnostic Religion.
So that's what I'm rolling with.
Not deluded copy cat nonsense.

Also, if people are interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(Gnosticism)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Gnosticism)

Further note:
The Demiurage is seen as a destructive force of creation [Creative Chaos] in ALL forms of ancient Gnosticism. In Paleolithic Religions the concept was known as the "Shaker", and this is where medicine sticks originally came from, not to mimic rain, but to scare spirits away by dressing as a god [Shaker] and making a sound pretending to be him.

>>16971235
I agree that we have a lot of information but none of it can be said to be verifiable. A lot of it contradicts. We have to accept the fact that the actual force behind our existence cannot be known.

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>>16971306
1.) It's just mythology, aka a lie. We know the entire lie.
2.) The force behind out existence is known. Abandon religion and embrace Science. Yes, Science can tell us everything, but some people want mystery and refuse to believe because they don't want to know, or can't comprehend how "levels" don't exist and are purely rhetoric.

>>16971170

I emailed Michael Aquino of the Temple of Set
to ask.

he said Demiurge is God/Yahweh/Tao

and yeah its very gnostic how there is a inner spark, that i guess is "unnatural" in the natural universe, not of it... beyond it.

I do find this place a prison which ever way you cut it though.

>>16971336
Science is as close as we can get but we can never truly be certain that we aren't being mislead by an 'outside force' or even our own biology. Even if science were to take us to a perspective far removed from our current one, we would always be trapped inside the box of 'life'.

>>16971170
no, even if the absurd pantheon of the valentinians is correct.

for from bythos came the aeons, of which one was Sophia. Sophia then, is the mother of the demiurge.

thus, the ultimate source of the physical universe is still in the so-called gnostic's high-god.

also, irenaeus addresses the idiocy of gnosticism in against heresies, book 2, specifically defeating this notion in chapters 2-4.

>>16971266
>Christian gnostics

there is no citation of any other sort of gnostics save for maybe the mandaens, who are specifically anti-christian (yet ante-date them yet).

pre-christian "gnosticism" would simply be Hellenistic mystery religions.

>>16971364
>ante

*post

>>16971170
maybe

>>16971351
The Demon Theory isn't philosophically correct because it relies on a fallacy maze, and therefore has no reason.
The first rule of logic: There is no reason to believe unless there is a reason to believe.

>>16971356
That's all medieval nonsense.
True Gnosticism is Early Bronze Age and nothing else.

>>16971364
That's a direct lie.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism

The Demiurge as a concept doesn't necessarily have to be used in a Gnostic way.

>>16971375
X in the X concept doesn't have to be used in an X way.

No shit, but that doesn't make it correct.
It makes it borrowed.

I want to learn more about Gnosticism, at least from an academic perspective. I had never heard of it before coming to this site. Does anyone have a good book recomendation for me?

>>16971235
I think he meant none of it is empirically testable.

>>16971170
Lucifer created the world that we live in to protect us from God's hateful wrath.

Gnostic is a pretty loose term invented by christian heresy investigators in the 18th century

Some of what is called "Gnostic", particularly scriptures found at the Nag Hammadi complex, entail dualistic belief systems, including that of the Demigod not being the same as the Divine God


Hypostasis of the Archons is pretty popular

>>16971545
holy fuck I'm not saying you're wrong. but that's a totally different viewpoint than i have ever thought about. fucking crazy idea

The Demiurge is just the Gnostics way of hating the God of bible while stating that Jesus was never the God he claimed he was. Its a blasphemous heresy that dates back all the way to the apostles time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyrhikYaRrk

>>16971559
I've put a lot of thought into Lucifer being the hero and the jews skewing the bible to make it seem as though yhwh is the hero. after all, Lucifer and humans were ejected from paradise. perhaps he's the one who looks after us.

>>16971597

Thats because Lucifer is the god of this world. He became god when man sinned since and he now rules over all of corrupt creation. He has no power outside the Law and since Jesus came to free us from the Law we are no longer bound by sin. We are now children of God instead of him who rules the world.

>>16971559
Well shit, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that sounded crazy.

>>16971547
Thanks anon. Here's the Wikipedia deffinition for anyone else as clueless as me:

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστιkός gnostikos, "having knowledge", from γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) is a modern term categorizing a collection of ancient religions whose adherents shunned the material world – which they viewed as created by the demiurge – and embraced the spiritual world.

You know how you write scripts that keep running always to keep logs, cleaning junk files, etc.
Demiurge is sorta like that; it does not have a sentience like us, and keeps doing the things that it is programmed to.

>>16971374
>direct lie

the entire article backs up my claim that there is scant evidence of pre-christian gnostics.

>medieval nonsense
>bronze age
gnosticism exists from around the time of Simon magus, up to maybe the mid 1200s if we count the cathars (which we really shouldn't). they never existed in the bronze age at all, coming into existence only in late antiquity.

further, the system I described comes from irenaeus' against heresies, which was published in the mid 100s AD, so its quite a bit earlier than the middle ages.

>>16971394
start with the patristic writings attacking it. irenaeus, tertullian, Augustine, etc.

reason: idiot new agers will lead you to believe in a religion called gnosticism. reading the historical attacks against it will let you realise that it's really 9001 different little sects with similar ideas.

learn dates too. when did valentinus live? when did Simon magus live? when did marcion live? etc etc.

these two points: knowing that the gnostics aren't one religion, and when they actually existed, is the biggest step you can take in understanding them academically rather than as a new age faggot who thinks shin megami tensei is real life.

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The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists.
This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine.
During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm.

The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World.
The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…
We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.

>>16971266

Isn't gnosticism just a copy-cat of platonism?

>>16971336

It may one day tell us everything but it hasn't yet.

There's still a lot of mystery out there.

>>16971576

Yahweh from the OT is a miserable cunt with the temperament of a 3 year old child though.

It does make a bit of sense.

>>16972374
I hate calling religions copy-cats of other religions simply because they share some beliefs.

But yeah, Platonism had the Demiurge before Gnostics.

>>16972222
quads of wisdom.

>>16971170
I'd say so, yes.

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Any God that is on the scale of evolution is not the true God!

I belive in science and technology, but GOD is beyond our comprehensive range of understanding

Check this link the guy is Catholic but he gets the concept!

http://youtu.be/2BQSqHrU7ns

>>16971170

The book of Genesis isn't really "Christian" the way people think it is, in that it pulls from creation stories predating Christianity or organized religion. It speaks frankly of the Elohim who are many creating us in "their" image, which isn't how it would read if "the one true God" who is singular were our creator. And if these Elohim created us it is possible they were also the ones creating the Earth and possibly even the material Universe (now referred to as the matrix).

I think it's very likely that the Old Testament creators like the Elohim and the Old Testament "God" are separate entities from the "One True God" spoken of in the New Testament and worshipped in other religions.

The One True God is probably beyond the Material and sees it as a Luciferian abomination which is why there is an effort to "save" us from it. He created it indirectly in the same way that if you have children and they create something, some part of that creation belongs to you, but it isn't directly your doing.

I like the interpretation of the Demiurge as the "World Soul", or the deranged, not really aware artificial intelligence ruling this material prison with the iron fist of the laws of physics. Like a program or a thoughtform left to do a task and performing it with cold indifference.

It's quite clear that if there is a loving creator, or at least a creator not completely indifferent to us, he is beyond the material plane and its rules.

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>>16971266
Where did the kabbalah come from?
It almost seems older than life

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Obviously the real "demiurge" false god is Lucifer. That is why the Masons refer to him as the Grand Architect meaning he designed the world or civilization but was not the one who was its supreme creator who is Jesus. This is why Jesus refers to Satan as the price of the world in John. The Gnostics claim that the OT and NT God are not the same but this is a lie as why would Jesus then claim he was the God of the Hebrews in the OT who would eventually die on behalf of the redemption of man and be raised from the grave. Noone but God himself has the power to raise people from the dead and thats why Satan will most probably attempt to recreate a fake resurrection to assert that he is him.

>>16978058
That is a good point but why then is Yahwe so different from the God in the New Testament? It's like He did a 180 degree change. Jesus's message of universal love is very differrent from the tribual, exccessively regimented religion of the Old Testament. Something doesn't add up

>>16978146

The response would be quite long to write so I will leave the burden of reading with you but here are the links that that Definitively answers your questions of Gods wrath in the OT. Also please remember that Jesus constantly warned people about the coming Judgement of God and during the end times which he would bring to pass. He told people more then any other person about the hellfires that awaited the unbelievers and about the total destruction of the wicked upon his return yet for some reason people tend to forget about these. If you have truly read these articles and would like to point out some flaw you have found then by all means ask me another question.


https://carm.org/god-of-old-testament-a-monster

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-different.html