Banjo Tooie

>>4169473
>I fucking love Banjo Kazooie
If you love it so much maybe you should marry it.

>>4169473
Conker>Banjo1>Banjo2>Donkey64

>>4169483
Conker really hasn't aged all that well

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>>4169496
>Age

It's still a good game, but the backtracking and unnecessarily huge level design you mentioned holds it back from being the same level of greatness that was B-K.

I love the backtracking and interconnectivity, which is admittedly why most people hate it. It and M64 are my two favorite collectathons

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I do not like most Rare collecta-thons, they feel very diluted to most platformers

>Rare platformers
It's a finger-on-the-mute-button episode.

The audio in these games is horrific, how anyone can justify that wakka wakka merr merr bullshit is beyond me

>>4169473
Far superior to BK. People who complain about Terrydactyland and Grunty Industries should just git gud.

I'm basically the opposite of you, I rank them BT > DK64 > BK.

>>4169576
>The audio in these games is horrific, how anyone can justify that wakka wakka merr merr bullshit is beyond me

Honestly the gibberish language in BK and BT sounds better and has more character than 95% of the voice acting from the 5th gen.

>>4169585
>git gud
There's no challenge in these games, you basically just walk around doing chores for npcs.

>>4169473

Grunty's industries is probably the WORST level ever made in a 3D platformer. Actually, there is not a single level in the game I can say it's outstanding. The best one is probably Cloud Cuckooland and yet it pales in comparison to even the weakest leven in banjo kazooie.

>>4169793
>comparing a third person shooter to platformers
After you, idiot.

>>4169823
Grunty's Industries is the level that made me quit Banjo-Tooie...

Seriously (not OP) I loved Banjo-Kazooie, but Banjo-Tooie wasn't fun. The reason I quit Tooie is because I found only one, ONE fucking jiggy after 1 hour in Grunty's Industries

>>4169840
JFG is half platformers with all the tribals and ship parts shit.

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>>4169473
I find it greatly inferior but a good game still. The levels are huge, this would be fine but they are made empty making you feel like you're wondering around pointlessly. The worst exampl is Terrydactyl Land which is the worst level in the game since it's just boring as fuck to walk around. The addition of bosses was cool but they are pathetic and go down in seconds. The only good bosses was Mr. Patches as battling while flying was fun and the Hag-1 since it is actually pretty challenging and incorporates multiple things you have learned in the game. The gimmicks can be fun but some are just annoying, the first person shooter sections for example aren't fu in the slightest I felt. Lastly the difficulty was toned down too much. The fact you always keep notes even if you die ruins the tension I feel that Kazooie gave you.

>>4169483

Having played all N64 3D platformers, I'd rank them as follows:

1- Conker (mostly because of the multiplyer though)
2- Mario 64
3- Banjo Kazooie
4- donkey kong 64
5- bomberman hero
6- duck dodgers
7- gex 3
8- gex 64
9- toy story 2
10- banjo tooie
11- tonic trouble
12- rayman 2
13- 40 winks
14- blues brothers
15- glover
16- chameleon twist
17- donald duck going quackers
18 earthworm jim 3D
19- rocket robot on wheels
20- starshot space circus
21- taz express
22- a bugs life
23- chameleon twist 2

>>4169842

I had to use a guide to complete grunty's industries and even then it was frustating and boring as hell.

>>4169483
NO

Banjo-Tooie >Conker > Banjo-Kazooie > Donkey Kong 64

>>4169842
Grunty Industries has to be one of the most divisive 3D platforming levels ever created. People either love it or hate it, doesn't seem to be anybody in between.

I can understand why people hate it, but I really like it. You're basically faced with a multi-level labyrinth of a factory that is almost completely inaccessible, with most of the machinery (and therefore access paths) turned off, and you have to gradually find secret passages to unlock more and more of it. I personally find a sense of adventure in that, like wandering into an abandoned factory in real life, but I can understand if some people find it too confusing and frustrating.

>>4169840
its the same style of game, with guns instead of physical attacks.

>>4169946
Thinking Jet Force Gemini is nothing more than Banjo-Kazooie with guns only reveals a gross misunderstanding of the game, and a severe exaggeration of the "tribal collecting" meme.

>>4169953
Honestly, how? Many of the levels have platforming elements. Tribal collecting requires you to replay areas. I'm not saying it's Banjo-Kazooie with guns, but it's built around a similar design philosophy.

>>4169959
Not that anon, but aside from jumping around and having one thing to collect, I don't see any similarities here. I would call JFG a straight up third person shooter with some light platforming elements. The focus of the game is on combat, by and large.

>>4169496
Conker is clunky as fuck.

I never really had a problem with the whole "THE CAMERA IS FUCKING AWFUL" comment (referring to Mario 64/Ocarina) but Conker's just takes it to a whole new level of where the hell am I going?

>>4169473
I prefer Banjo Tooie more over Kazooie due to its backtracking/linked levels.
I really liked that concept and exploring aspect of the game which the first one sorta just singled it out in there respected levels. Not to mention not only keeping your old moves AND getting enhanced/better ones through the game really feels like what a sequel to a game should be, improving the same formula but with more scenarios.
Plus the way the game kinda just throws you into it like you are very familiar with Kazooie with its control but at the same time doesnt alienate new players if they never played the first one.

All in all, if I feel like playing a long Banjo Kazooie game, I'll play Tooie but when I just want a quick run with it, I'll play Kazooie.

>>4169473
Tooie is a lot more difficult than Banjo-Kazooie, the levels were bigger and the new approach to backtracking and interconnectivity made more complicated puzzles. That said, I don't think it's a bad thing. It really is a proper sequel because it didn't just rehash what Banjo-Kazooie did right, it expanded on it and added on to it, and did it pretty well compared to a lot of other sequels.
Yea, more moves means some of them are kinda gimmicky and not as useful, but it's still fun. I'm trying to think of the most pointless move and honestly the only one that comes to mind is the Ice Egg, which is still fun to use even if it's not very useful.
Anyone who says that Grunty Industries is hard needs to git gud. All you need to beat that level is patience and some wits. Honestly it's not nearly as frustrating as Rusty Bucket Bay. (Those are my two favorite levels and I'll admit they are both kinda frustrating compared to all the others)

Also what was wrong with Terrydactyland?

>>4169953
It's not a meme, it's a pretty blatant game design flaw

>>4170589
I love rusty bucket bay too, other than the underwater sections. Other favorites include Click Clock Wood and Clanker's Cavern, I didn't like some that are usually people's favorites that much, like Mad Monster Mansion.

>>4170617
It is a meme. Most of the tribals in every level are grouped together. There are only a few groups per level at most. Collecting them all is not really a challenge, except that they can die in the crossfire, ala Virtua Cop. The game demanding that you complete every level without any of them dying before you can see the final boss is not a flaw. Seriously, get gud.

>>4169859

Folk are too hard on EWJ3D, Id' rate it much higher than most of those, same with Glover.

>>4170648

Some of the tribals are pretty hard to find and there are way too many, but at least the game does point the way for you to find them. The Floyd missions are much more of a pain in the ass.

>>4170648
Some of them Tribals literally throw themselves at enemy fire and explosions. Shit game design.

>>4170628
Mad Monster Mansion was honestly my least favorite from Banjo-Kazooie, and while overall the levels in Tooie are of notably lesser quality than Kazooie, MMM is the one I would definitely say is the worst level of both games aside from maybe Mayahem Temple
I think that says more about how good BK is than about BT

>>4170654
Yeah some are hard to find but not really all that much. As the other anon said, the challenge is to get them alive, not to find them. Especially because if one of them dies, you have to start over.
I think finding the missing ship parts was a lot more difficult and some of them were in really bullshit places.
Also, I never had problems with the Floyd missions. Those are the first person hovering ones, right? I always got gold on these, maybe I had to retry a few times but it was completely doable, didn't took me too many tries either.
>>4170656
Only if you let the enemies get close. Also what would be the challenge if they didn't get in the crossfire? You can aim in the game, so you can avoid shooting them.

>>4170662
>Only if you let the enemies get close
No, there are instances where they are placed strategically to jump in front of enemy fire if you don't save them immediately, can't recall which level though.

>>4169859
You forgot a few...
Bomberman 64 > Bomberman Hero > Bomberman 64 the 2nd attack.

>>4169859
>Chameleon Twist 1 & 2 lower than Tonic Trouble
This entire list is null & void.

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>>4170589
Banjo-Tooie's only flaw (besides the performance) is that the enemy AI only are programmed to have only one attack you at a time.

>>4169859
How have you played all of these and not tried mystical ninja

>>4171273
You can't even jump in BM64/TSA. How is it platformer?

>>4169473
BT is my favorite collectathon, mainly due to all of the moves and upgrades. You gradually build up this arsenal of abilities that alter the way you play gradually without overpowering the characters. It always gave you something to look forward to, and added an incentive to push through all of the labyrinthine levels beyond just a desire for exploration. Many of the moves weren't used all the time, but added to the troubleshooting you had to do to traverse a new obstacle.

I agree that the backtracking was a little excessive, but it was often really fun to find some new corners of a world much later on, really putting into perspective how much Banjo and Kazooie have developed. Also, while the world was huge (but if that's an issue collectathons just aren't your thing), IMO it was not quite large enough to feel drawn-out or unwieldy.

>>4169942
Totally agree with your ranking. Recently picked up DK64 but had to put it down after 4ish hours of play, it's such a goddamn easy snorefest.

>>4169473
I honestly like this one more than the original, but I can see why others feel the opposite. Tooie always felt like a better package for me, but I'd never call Kazooie a bad game or anything.

>>4170661
Honestly, Monster Mansion was my favorite level in the first game and then after clearing that one I kind of peter out and lose any interest in finishing the game. The "spooky" level of any game is almost always my favorite part, though, so that's just how I am.

>>4169473
My biggest issue with Tooie is all those moments where the game won't let you do something because you don't have the exact combination of characters it wants. Why Jamjars refuses to teach Kazooie a move just because Banjo is present is beyond me. Makes no fucking sense.

>>4169483
Banjo1>Banjo2>Conkers>>>>>Dk64 piece of shit.

I honestly can't understand why people like that much Conkers, ok it's a fun game but the most important thing in that game is the humor not the gameplay. People like to spit on AA cinematic's games but in fact that game isn't so faraway from that.

>>4174014
Clickcloak wood is fun as hell

>>4169473
I really enjoy it, but whoever came up with Grunty Industries needs to die a painful death.

>>4174043
Shit, I'm making it sound like I didn't like that level. That one was great. Real pain to 100% but I love the idea. Just because MMM is my favorite level doesn't mean I dislike everything after it.

I like Tooie even more than kazooie, to be honest. They're both 10/10 games for me.

Also hating on Tooie is a recent-ish meme started by e-celebs who are bad at video games about 5-6 years ago. Nobody in 2000 was complaining about muh backtracking muh level size. The only thing I remember anyone complaining about the game back then was the frame rate getting fucked in some areas (which was a legitimate complaint). Same thing with DK64 by the way, it was very well received back then and not considered a shit/"wah wah it's too hard for my ADHD-riddled mind to play a game longer than two hours" back then. Though I do prefer the banjo games.

>>4174147
But it is true these games have shit level design. I mean, I liked and 100%'d them back when they were new (I was just a pre-teen back then), but now that I've grown-up I can see just how flawed they are. There are way better platform games to choose from during that time, that I wish I'd known about back then and played instead.

>>4174147
This is like saying nobody had a problem with multi disc games before games went on DVDs. It's just an inherently flawed argument.

>>4169473
currently playing it and Terrydactyland isn't that bad. I do agree the backtracking is really ruining my experience though, many of the quests feel like such annoying and slow chores. And Mumbo feels completely unnecessary

>>4169473
Kazooie was a really fun game, but I don't like Tooie at all. I haven't been able to get more than a handful of jiggies, because I end up lost and running in circles.

>>4174147
Donkey kong is bloated but at least it's simple

Tooie is convoluted, messy and half the levels suck

>>4174678
Maybe convoluted, but messy? I disagree; the levels were carefully structured and flowed well, they just had a lot packed into them.

And how is simple a good thing? That's DK64's ultimate failing; it never challenges or engages you and feels like a chore. BT has enough complexity and variety to keep the sprawling levels exciting.

I liked it equally to kazooie. Even Terrydactyland and Grunty Industries I thought were awesome levels. Two of my favorites actually, with my least favorite being Glitter Gulch Mine. Kazooie is still a great game but has less replayability than tooie. I've 100% completed tooie multiple times and theres still some parts i can get kinda lost in.

Why do you hate the backtracking? It was so easy to just get in the pod and move between levels. You even had a train to get you places!
Banjo Tooie was better than Kazooie. Larger, more diverse worlds, original challenges, superior music, better graphics, LOTS of collectables that you actually receive rewards for collecting, etc. Truly a legendary game.

>>4169473
Banjo-Tooie is one the best 3D platformers out there.
It's a good example of "bigger and better" but without going overboard like Donkey Kong 64.

The levels are pretty varied and the objectives always feel fresh.
I also love the level design of it all - Those interconnected levels adds a sense of adventure and that makes the isle o' hags feel like an actual location instead of portals to other worlds.

The only thing I would fault it for is AI and framerate as mentioned here >>4173136.

Its probably one of the best examples of a sequel in my opinion.

Kept what made the first game good but added even more stuff to make it different.

I made it a part of the way through the lava/snowy level and then dropped the game entirely. Loved the first one though. I knew these games as a kid but I actually never sat down and really played them until this past year. I had a couple days off work and spent them playing the first one non stop, then the second one but it really wasn't as good.

It's not as fun as Kazooie imo, that's just all there is to it for me. The boss battles are way better though.

>>4169550
>>4169560
Why is backtracking such a mixed bag with people?

>>4170651

the boss battles (pork surfing) is what drags the game down for me.

>>4171273

bomberman 64 and second attack are not platformers.

>>4171403

Tonic trouble is a great game. I love chameleon twist but it's too short and the sequel is just bad.

>>4173440

I don't consider mystical ninja to be a platformer. I put it alongside zelda in the adventure genre.

>>4169859
>conker on first place
Even the multiplayer isn't that amazing, let alone the overrated trash that is the single player campaign. The controls are some of the worst on the system, the camera is arguably worse than in Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot, the "humor" gets old very fast, the voices are annoying and you HAVE to watch those cutscenes every playthrough for the first time and there are LOTS of them compared to let's say OoT that gets criticized for the "many" cutscenes it has, the music is more or less forgettable (nothing against Beanland though, he made some great tracks for games like KI), the story and the areas feel so disconnected that I wonder if they were even supposed to be the same game or just several different ones fused together because Rare felt that their time with Nintendo was up ...

If you're all style over substance then go for it but I honestly wouldn't recommend Conker to anyone. It surprises me how many times people praise this game and just HAVE to mention it when others ask them which games are worth to get the N64 for. Others like Banjo Kazooie are definitely as great as people make them out to be but Conker? Especially for the price they ask for a simple cartridge? Hell no.

>>4178552

>Even the multiplayer isn't that amazing
It's up there alongside smash bros and perfect dark as the best multiplayer on the console. I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you don't have friends to play with? Or maybe you don't like fun?

>The controls are some of the worst on the system, the camera is arguably worse than in Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot
Or you just suck at it and need to get gud. I never heard anyone having problems with the camera or controls in this game. Maybe you're just a little special snowflake.

>the "humor" gets old very fast, the voices are annoying and you HAVE to watch those cutscenes every playthrough
Uou CAN skip the cutscenes. About the voices, you're just a whiny cunt. Banjo uses gibberish = people complain. Zelda uses texts only = people complain. Conker uses full voice over = you're the only one complaining.

>the story and the areas feel so disconnected that I wonder if they were even supposed to be the same game or just several different ones fused together because Rare felt that their time with Nintendo was up ...
Don't blame the game for your stupidity. The game world is supposed to be this crazy place with lots of things going on. It's part of what makes this game unique. What did you expect? A realist bland enviroment with nothing going on? the story is supposed to be have this non-sensical South park style narrative.


>If you're all style over substance then go for it but I honestly wouldn't recommend Conker to anyone
I'm sorry for your shitty taste anon. Fortunately you're part of a very, very small minority of people who dislike conker.

>>4178541
Bomberman 64 is a puzzle platformer,

>>4178391
I view backtracking as just a cheap way to pad out a game -- any game. B-K & B-T just happen to be the quintessential way to demonstrate why I dislike it. Both games have roughly the same amount of content in terms of goals and collectables, yet a complete B-T playthrough is about double that of a B-K one. Backtracking is just unnecessary fluff, and I truly cannot fathom why anyone would like it or defend it.

>>4178552
Butthurt fanboy detected. Go back to your circlejerk if you can't stand any criticism. I'm far from the only one complaining about this stuff.

>best multiplayer on the console
Most of those modes are variations of the same game and they're broken beyond belief. You're not seriously gonna tell me that games like Goldeneye, Mario Kart or Smash Bros. are so broken that you would ALWAYS win with the same characters, are you?

>Git gud!
Rare had no fucking excuse to mess up the controls. They've worked on the original N64 hardware back when it was still called the Ultra 64 for the Arcade engine of Killer Instinct and they developed several classic games in the early years of the N64. Remember, Conker got released in 2001 back when the N64 was already for more than 5 years on the market. How can a company that has had so much experience with developing for a console still have issues programming the god damn controls??

>you CAN skip the cutscenes
No you can't. Only after the first time you've seen them. The game explicitly tells you that at the very beginning ...

>you're just a whiny cunt
Criticizing a game =/= whining. I know a lot of anons love to think it's the same but just because you love to do so doesn't make that right. I don't particularly care about voice acting in a game but if it's as obnoxious as most of them in CBFD then it gets incredibly annoying and it gets in the way of enjoying the gameplay.

>don't blame the game for your stupidity
Calling me stupid doesn't change how incoherent the gameplay and settings are. It's like the creators barely had any time to think of something so they said "hey let's make some more references to movies and toilet humor, they will love it!". Looking at people like you they were probably right but that doesn't make the game good. If I wanna see some "mature" nonsense then I might as well watch an older episode of South Park. Rare can make a game enjoyable but stuff like that is not why they're fondly remembered.

Oops, >>4178765 was meant for
>>4178623


>>4178623
To add one more thing:
>I'm sorry for your shitty taste anon, fortunately you're part of a very small minority of people who dislike conker
Oh wow, the classic "you just have shitty taste!" excuse. Great argument you've got there anon. You and your fellow fanboys can go act like a hivemind and ignore that there are much more people who don't agree with you. Maybe you should go to some social media website or something like Reddit where you can keep circlejerking how incredible your "hidden gem" actually is and how stupid others are for not realizing that.

>>4178779
this dude so mad lmao

>>4169473
It improved a lot of things from the original and had some great shit, but I'd agree that it was bogged down by a lot of tedious shit.

>>4169473

>The backtracking is obscene

As someone who recently played this game for the first time since childhood, I can safely say that there is NOTHING wrong with the 'backtracking'. You were easily overwhelmed with this game in your childhood. There is nothing wrong with going back a level or two in order to complete things for the current level you were in.

>>4179880
As someone who recently played this game for the 10th time to 100% completion, it's fucking bloated to hell and back by contrived level design and puzzles built on testing the patience of the player. Even Yooka-Laylee understood backtracking better.

>>4179880
Oh don't you dare put quotations around backtracking. The backtracking in that game is undeniable.

>>4180140
>backtracking gets in the way of my completionism OCD

For the time, Tooie did what it was supposed to do. With more worlds around the same size as Kazooie's and the interconnection of Tooie, you'd have the perfect Banjo game. For an N64 title, it was amazing how they were able to fit so much in it.

>>4169576
Didn't mind the audio style, but Rare got a little carried away with long dialog and cutscenes in late cycle N64 platformers.

>>4171403
Tonic trouble is fucking amazing t b h

It's like Demons Souls for the Dark Souls, where Dark Souls is Rayman.

Kazooie is the simpler and more focused game, Tooie is bigger, more complex and more ambitious. They're actually pretty different games when you get down to it.
Kazooie is almost like a point-and-click game in that the main appeal is the context in which the gameplay takes place – the characters, settings, music and artstyle. The combat, puzzles and platforming are all very simple and, really, just not very interesting by themselves. It's the charm that holds the whole experience together.
Tooie's changes expand on the gameplay and the levels. It loses some of the charm and much of the focus of the original but allows for more interesting gameplay scenarios.

>>4185831
>but allows for more interesting gameplay scenarios.
Yeah like shitty FPS and soccer minigames.

SO INTERESTING AMIRITE?!

>>4185903
Obviously I was talking about the normal platforming gameplay, you stupid cock.

>>4169859
>Rayman 2 that low
Was the N64 version shit or something?

>>4178391
It's strictly padding.

I recently did a run where I made sure to minimize the amount of backtracking id have to do. Went to levels early just to get a move I needed, move the train where I needed it, got mumbo and humba wumba hooked up right away, etc. I beat the game in a 4th of the time it took me to beat as a kid.

The reality is that the backtracking was one of those adventure game ideas that only serves to waste the players time for several jiggies. Its really satisfying to know the fastest route and trim down on time, but then I got bummed out I beat the game so fast.

Either way Tooie is still one of the best 3D platformers ever.

>>4169576
I'll take it over horrible VO like in Megaman Legends or Spyro

>>4179880
I love the game to pieces but I'd even say that the stegosaurus jiggy was ridiculous to get. Like the amount of things needed to be done just to get the one dino in Witchy World home was Jiggy worthy, but then the two other kids are fucked.

Also Grunty Inc is one of the sharpest levels in a 3d platformer I've ever played. All yall hating on it need to look up an FAQ or something.

>>4186440
No, he just mustn't like the game. The N64 version is one of the better versions.

>>4178753
Come on dude, you can't even jump in that game. Platformers are defined by jumping on platforms. Bomberban 64 is an adventure puzzle game if I had to narrow it down.

>>4178760
>Banjo-Kazooie
>Backtracking
Wut.
There is no backtracking in this game beyond navigating the hub world - the same critique would apply to Mario 64 as well and no one criticizes it for that.

>>4169473
Rare has terrible sense of design when it comes to large interconnected worlds. DK64 was even worse.

>>4186440

I'm the anon that made the list. The n64 version is one of the best out there. I Just don't think the game is that great (is good though, don't get me wrong). Tonic trouble that came before as a tech demo to rayman 2 I consider to be a better game, with better pacing and environments. Rayman 2 drags way too much in dark and boring scenarios with lots of puzzles.

>>4187469
By comparsion, what game (with large interconnected worlds) has good sense of design?

>>4188183
Super Metroid

>>4186440
no, it was the original version actually. The PC version is based on it

some people don't really like Rayman 2 that much. It's got incredible atmosphere and art style but some levels play better than others

I personally like Rayman 3 a lot more

>>4188183
Wonder Boy III Dragon Trap (though it's not super huge)

Dark Souls and Bloodborne

>>4188214
>>4188260
Those are 2D games

>>4188798
Super Mario 64