Would a retro jrpg

>>4139809
Yeah, sure.

as a game mechanic or a plot device?

>>4139809
Is that a FF7 demake on RPG maker??

>>4139814
Both.

>>4139817
Nes demake

>>4139825
>both
I think it's cpmpletely possible to have a plot without magic
a battle system without magic or something similar is harder to pull off
you'd have to make regular attacking/defending/items more interesting and versatile

>>4139809
Metal Max.

>>4139857
There's no actual magic in at least retro Pokemon either. They're all just using natural abilities.

>>4139809
Metal Max has no magic system at all.

>>4139848
Big Swords, guns, lazors, cyclops like eye beams. Bombs, punches, electric bolts from cyborg hands?

Nanobot cures, healing factor, etc?

Would that work?

>>4139871
sure, why not, although the eye laser stuff sounds like magic
basically if you have options that use up a resource to cause damage/status effects/heal/revive etc, you have a magic system, doesn't matter what it's called

>>4139871
That's pretty much Super Robot Wars.

It does work, but pilots have certain abilities that can be considered the magic of hot blood.

>>4139884
>>4139885
Ok I see. I'm just looking for non magic yet similar ways attacks for the universe and gameplay.

I will use sci fi or medieval or goth punk or cyber punk setting or a mix of all.

I guess foes could be mutates, robots, cyborgs, duper humans etc.

>>4139861
>Misdreavus used Curse!

>>4139809
Darklands

>>4139861
They do all kinds of things that are clearly supernatural. Pokemon are magical in every way except for aren't described with the word "magic."

>>4140042
OP is obviously talking about as a game mechanic, not just in general.

>>4140061
Ok but what differentiates magic as a game mechanic from ammunition or stamina or any other concept where you use up some limited resource to activate a special ability? Even pokemon have pp.

>>4140069
It sounds like he just wanted a jrpg without any kind of magic. Another anon had said it but Metal Max is honestly the only one that comes to mind.

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>>4139884
>basically if you have options that use up a resource to cause damage/status effects/heal/revive etc, you have a magic system, doesn't matter what it's called
>options that use up a resource to cause damage
look, MAGIC!

>>4140074
Phantasy Star?

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>>4139884
It's magic!

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>>4139884
MAGIC!

>>4140157
>>4140187
>>4140196
a bit off topic, but are there any rpgs where guns n' shit are treated like magic?

>>4140198

Wild ARMs, maybe?

>>4139861
>>4140042
Play Robopon instead.

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>>4139809
There is one already.

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River City Ransom if it counts as a JRPG.

>>4140196
>>4140187
>>4140157

don't play dumb, you know I was refering to skills that use the same resource like MP to do all that cool shit
different type of guns in FPS usually use different type of ammo and only cause damage, some better some worse
the first aid doesn't even make sense

>>4140381
so? a cyborg with an energy reactor could use this resource to power many different weapons... he'd need actual physical ammo, somewhere in his inventory, for machineguns abd shit, but if heavyarms custom can shoot a beam gatling gun in gundam wing endless waltz who am I to stop a JRPG developer?

>>4140393
>a cyborg with an energy reactor could use this resource to power many different weapons

if cyborgs in this game could use energy reactors to not just cause damage, but also inflict status effects, heal damage, revive, raise stats etc. they'd basically be using magic

>>4140405
>What is a flame-thrower
>What is Burn effect
By your standard, still magic.

>>4140405
Not a retro example, but its an example none the less.
The Medic in TF2. He uses his gun to heal people.
Whats-her-face in OverWatch also does that. (Sorry, Blizzard lost my support after StarCraft 2, so I don't pay attention to them much. All I know is that there's some chick in OverWatch who does that.)
Hell, if the cyborg uses music to help raise stats, he's still doing that out of his reactor. It's not a far stretch, seeing as Bards do it in D&D.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but could you elaborate a little more about what you define as magic? Because pretty much all of what you're talking about relegates a lot to being "magic".

>>4140513
>The Medic in TF2. He uses his gun to heal people. Whats-her-face in OverWatch also does that.

that sounds kinda retarded
they use bullets to kill AND heal people?
yeah, sure, call it magic because mechanically it may as well be
but those are FPS games, not retro rpgs so whatever

>>4140518
You're missing the point, Anon. There's plenty of examples of things that aren't magic that you can classify as magic at this point. Are you saying you don't want any of those mechanics in the game you're looking for? Are you saying that items can't count? I mean, technically certain drugs in ShadowRun can be used to amp stats, and that's a TTRPG.
Give us specifics and we might be able to help you find what you want.

>>4140543
I'm not looking for anything, anon
I'm not OP, you should probably ask him what this magic-less retro rpg should look like

>>4139809
Little Ninja Brothers

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>>4139817

>>4140198
I think Wild Arms 3 is your closest bet. That's the only entry in the series where everybody uses a gun as a weapon.

>>4139921
misdreavus doesnt learn curse

>>4140749
which boss is that in the demake?

>>4140186
Phantasy star is full of magicians

Front Mission?

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>>4140749
There's several demakes. Ths one has atb gauges.

Somebody's making a new one in English for nes, and rpg maker for pc.

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>>4139857
Nice.

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>>4140839
Techniques replaced magic. Until only a few could fo actual magic.

You had to be born to be able do true magic. Similar to DC comics homo-magi.

>>4140321
Well it has 2 different resource based attacks, 3 if you count using items during combat. Are badges and star powers not magic?

>>4140405
>inflict status effects
stun beam, flashbang, flamethrower
>heal damage, revive
defibrilator, cauterizer(sort of an ionized blowtorch)
>raise stats
nerve jolt (needles that you shoot your allies with to jolt them with energy), electromagnetic wave shield, gamma wave stupor(use waves to influence brain and bring a berserker-like status to your allies)
you're just being nitpicky and uncreative. We're not even talking uber-tech like overwatch and most modern tokusatsu yet, but if you go to the realm of "energy to matter"-tech then the line really starts to blurr.

>>4139809
Pokemon doesn't have magic. Worked out pretty well.

>>4140042
So what you really mean is an RPG with no fantastical elements. You don't actually mean no magic.

>>4141310
So now you mean an RPG with no fantastical elements and also no resource management?

>>4142314
Still possible, see the cowboy arc of Live A Live.

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Well there is Hybrid Heaven in which you punch, kick, and pile drive your opponents into submission. No magic at all, just a few elemental guns scattered in the game but they aren't plentiful.

>>4142313
Pokemon is pretty magic, Anon. And examples have already been stated in this thread.

>>4139809
Magic is just a setting detail.

>>4142283
so according to you the only thing you need to do to say your game doesn't have a magic system is call your skill system something other than Magic, even though its function is basically identical

okay

>>4140198
The original wild arms definitely, the MC uses a sword for his standard attack and a gun for his special ones

>>4143338
You should have worded your post much better. Asking about no magic when what you really mean is no resource based skils is very different.

Of course it's possible, you can even do it yourself. Play FF1 with an all monk party if you want. Making an rpg with none of those elements wouldn't be the hard part, making it interesting to play would be.

>Making an rpg with none of those elements wouldn't be the hard part, making it interesting to play would be.

kinda what I said here>>4139848

>>4143427
And the princess who uses healing magi-AH SHIT

>>4143484
Sure. Getting rid of resource abilities is plenty possible, but there has to be some other system to bring some strategy to the gameplay. OP just worded what he was asking terribly.

>>4139809
It's been already done many times before, yeah. Check stuff like Metal Max or Solid Runner if you want an example.

>>4143338
And according to you doctors handing out pills, soldiers shooting, cooks cooking and propane salesmen selling propane could all be considered mages.

>>4144396
you're confusing retro rpgs for real life again, anon
stop doing that

>>4143585
Wild Arms 2 has spells that you can use endlessly. Only the guns use ammo.

Would a better question have been "would a retro jrpg without unrealistic combat abilities work?"

I don't see how e.g. ammo in a gun equates to "magic" as long as you can only hit one target at a time.
The only important thing that you would probably have to give up are healing abilities. In reality there is just no way to go from "almost maimed to death" back to 100% on the spot. If you're down you'd have to stay down a while to recover.

>>4144608
>Would a better question have been "would a retro jrpg without unrealistic combat abilities work?"

It's a much better question if it's what you actually meant.

The problem with getting rid of something like healing is that you have to accommodate for the damage players will take, or give them an interesting way to avoid it in the first place.

The problem is that most rpgs are turn based, so it's not like an action game where player skill can help you avoid damage. So there has to be some system in place to deal with the hits they take. Unless you come up with good and interesting way to avoid it.

It's kind of action based, but the way combat in ZoE Fist of Mars is quite good and lets you avoid most damage if you're good at it.

>>4144608
Try playing a roguelike as a melee class. Might be what you're looking for.

>>4144456
you're the one confusing resource management with magic anon, I'm just showing you how ridiculous your line of tought is.

>>4144608
>>4144647
To be clear I'm not the OP and I'm disagreeing with his interpretation of the question. Pokemon moves are obviously in the excluded category even if they're not referred to as "magic" while (realistic) guns, swordsmanship, and martial arts seem like they should be fine regardless of whether they include aspects of "resource management."

>>4144856
Ahh. Well maybe he'll weigh in eventually and explain what exactly he meant.

>>4144647
You could have a rhythm game component or something to minimize damage. My goal in RPGs was always to pick the right damages out to one-shot the enemy lineup, which you can do without grinding in most RPGs.

So between players getting gud with rhythm and battle strategy, they should be able to clear the dungeon out. Between dungeons they should be able to heal.

This sounds pretty cool to me because it'd make the games more difficult and I wouldn't have to worry about healing bullshit.

>>4144880
I bet that would work really well actually. I'm envisioning kind of Theatrhythm mixed with an RPG. Maybe each enemy has their own music theme.

>>4144880
mother 3 did it, and crypt of the necrodancer kinda does it... not /vr/ tho.

>>4144794
no I'm not, you're just being obtuse
skills that have various different effects (damage, healing, reviving, status) and use the same resource (usually MP) is exactly how magic works in most retro jrpgs (what the OP is asking for)
bringing up doctors, flamethrowers or propane salesmen out of nowhere just makes you look dumb

Black Onyx is literally just warriors, still fun as fuck.

>>4145263
>what the OP is asking for)

What the OP is asking for really isn't clear. Whether he's asking about special resource based attacks, unrealistic attacks or straight up magic has never really been made clear by him.

Nothing magically based is not the same as nothing that acts similar to how magic works in most rpgs.

>>4145451
>What the OP is asking for really isn't clear. Whether he's asking about special resource based attacks, unrealistic attacks or straight up magic has never really been made clear by him.
>Nothing magically based is not the same as nothing that acts similar to how magic works in most rpgs.
Only one of those questions has a non-trivial answer. If he means "straight up magic" then the answer is so immediately obvious that he wouldn't've asked the question: just substitute "magic" and "MP" for "unexplained super futuristic technology" and "tech points" or something, and there you go. Of course the gameplay would not change at all, so it would obviously "work" regardless of what you call it (mana, psi, tech, etc.).

If he means "resource based attacks" then the question becomes intertwined with "unrealistic attacks," because the only even vaguely "magical" thing about resource based attacks is the idea pointed out by >>4145263
>skills that have various different effects (damage, healing, reviving, status) and use the same resource (usually MP) is exactly how magic works in most retro jrpgs
Vaguely defined action points that allow you to damage, heal, revive, etc. interchangeably are effectively magic, not because they consume a resource but because they do so in an impossible way. And if the OP is asking about "unrealistic combat" as I speculated above, unrealistic universal resources are out but reasonable things like bullets and bottles of scotch are fine.
So there's only one meaningful interpretation of the question, and it's one that has been answered through example many times in this thread already.

>>4145583
That's a lot of hypothesizing and don't agree with a lot of it, but no point in discussing unless he actually comes back.

>>4145263
>lacking this much abstraction power
give me a gun and ammo
ammo is my common resource.
I can shoot your center body mass to damage you.
I can shoot your leg to give you speed reduction.
I can shoot your eyes to inflict blindness.
I can shoot your hands to reduce your dex.
I can shoot your head for an insta-kill effect.
Am I a wizard?

>>4146789
No, you're a red mage.

>>4144608
>"would a retro jrpg without unrealistic combat abilities work?"

Play a mecha game like Front Mission or Robotrek, though some autists might say Tanks >Bipedal Robots for realism.

>>4147020
Did any FF have rifle wielding red mages?
I wish we had something like a Fantasy/french revolution action FF. Like one of those generic psx action games with a twist like silent bomber.

>>4140518
>they use bullets to kill AND heal people?
Well his stock weapons consist of a gun that kills people and a gun that heals people as two separate things, but he does have an unlockable weapon that heals allies when you shoot them and damage enemies when you shoot them. The bullets are syringes.

>>4144975
Crypt of the NecroDancer is a rhythm roguelite, not a rhythm RPG. There aren't any RPG elements in the game besides the fact that you can get different equipment.

>>4147207
oh... desu I prefer traditional roguelikes so I only played it for like 2 minutes, I was assuming it had leveling and other rpg elements.

>>4147212
The game isn't that long, there are less than 20 floors. You can gain HP as you progress but that and equipment are pretty much everything, the rest is about positioning and keeping track of where/when your enemies will move with the rhythm-based turn system.
I think the game is fun but it's not much of a roguelike at all, which is why I used the term roguelite.

>>4147215
>a-ackchyually according to the berlin interpretation

>>4147219
You okay, anon?

>>4147219
what are you talking about? Roguelite is a widespread term that describes a fleshed out subgenre.
>>4147220
I'm the one you were talking to, not him... I did get that it was a roguelite when i downloaded it, but even then most of the other lites i played had some sort of leveling mechanism. As a 'band player, I get bored of them pretty quickly.

>>4147215
It's more roguelike than 99% of roguelites.

>>4139809

what...a ff7 remake in 8bit? what is this?

>>4146789
try healing yourself by shooting yourself in the head for a definiteve answer

>>4147305
I can heal myself by shooting myself in the arm, with the relevant syringe.
You do know that it's very common in jrpgs to have a dedicated healer that sucks at fighting don't you? In a magic-less setting the healer would use resources other than bullets. But I guess you just want to call every resource management magic... I'm starting to think you're some sort of 9th century archbishop, you know, with all the: "IT'S MAGIC, HE'S A WITCH, BURN HIM".
I do know that's a wrong stereotype that only happened in anedoctal cases, but you really call upon that image.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

>>4147219
>>4147215
>>4147225
This is why I prefer Roguelikelike dven though it's more of a mouthful. Roguelite implies it's a lesser form of a game, when really they're just different because they take some of the roguelike featurs but not all of them. Calling Dwarf Fortress etc lite always seems odd, but it's also not really just a roguelike.

>>4147321
I don't know why you keep bringing up real life examples in a thread about retro jrpgs
I already explaned how magic in most retro jrpgs works and you immediately jump to "OMG BUT WAT ABOUT THIS REAL LIFE EXAMPLE, MUH GUNS !!1!1!1"
you do know video games aren't real life right?

>>4147321
It's still unclear what the hell op was talking about though. Maybe he meant nothing magical, maybe he meant nothing that works the way magic tends to in an rpg type game.

>>4141090
>play "magic-less" rpg
>characters have martial arts techniques to teleport and throw fireballs

a fag?

>>4147583
df was never a lite
>>4147598
you called something magic based solely on how it uses resource management to happen... showing you that it happens the same way in real life is my way of trying to make you notice how ludicrous your notion that resource-management = magic is. JRPGs use abstraction to represent, with numbers, someone's capacity to do stuff.... sometimes these numbers are an arbitrary resource, stamina, mp, ammo... whenever they're not called magic points, and don't generate absurd effects, it's not magic.
>>4147763
He posted a picture of a demake of a game in one of the most magical and fantastic franchises ever made. Given that, and how most jrpgs tend to rely on magic to explain the setting, it's a safe bet he's talking about magic in the story and not a magic-like system. Even if he is talking about a magic-like system, if his way of categorizing things is anywhere similar to that other anon's then I might as well argue against it since it's ridiculous.

>>4147873
>df was never a lite
Exactly which is why -lite is a bad term for games similar to but not quite rougelikes.

> it's a safe bet he's talking about magic in the story and not a magic-like system.

It's one sentence he never really clarified, I don't think anything is a safe bet. I don't really care what he meant exactly it just seems pointless to go on just conjecture from that.

>>4147873
>you called something magic based solely on how it uses resource management to happen
no, I called it magic based on how it uses resources and the variety of effects it causes, both positive and negative

>showing you that it happens the same way in real life is my way of trying to make you notice how ludicrous your notion that resource-management = magic is
if that was your intention, you failed
a white mage and a black mage may use different types of spells but they use the same resource (usually MP)
calling these classes, spells and resources something different is superficial if they function the same way as in any other retro jrpg
Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the doctors and soldiers from your example don't use the same resources to accomplish their jobs, you won't find doctors using bullets to heal their patients (I hope)

>whenever they're not called magic points, and don't generate absurd effects, it's not magic.
"o-oh, my game doesn't have magic, it has uhhhh TECHS and they use TP instead of MP, it's TOTALLY different"
sounds like it doesn't take a lot to impress you

>it's a safe bet he's talking about magic in the story and not a magic-like system
see>>4139814 >>4139825

>>4147914
>no, I called it magic based on how it uses resources and the variety of effects it causes, both positive and n

Doesn't make it magic though.

>if that was your intention, you failed
Not him, but it was straightforward to me.

>>4147914
No one was ever saying white and black mages weren't magicians.... go back and read the thread. What I said from the beginning is that as long as the resource can justifiably be used to produce the desired effect then it isn't magic. I'm not saying that games with MP aren't magic, or even that most games that use some less than cleve excuse like 'Tech' aren't magic, but there are jrpgs like metal max, robopon and SRW(maybe not that much a jrpg) that don't fall under the magical category.
In my example in >>4142283 i showed you how, in a sci-fi setting, a reasonably well-equipped cyborg could do all of those things with energy alone(considering the implements for doing so are already part of his body).
also, not /vr/, but MMBN has no actual magic.
>>4147909
i think roguelites are a term more used to describe less expansive roguelikes, but they still are roguelikes, just like a vertical shmup is still a shmup.
It may be useless to conjecture about what OP said, but I'm more like concluding that what that other anon said is wrong since you can't equate all resource management to magic.

>>4139809

When considering my MO with most JRPGs is to powerlevel then just brute-force my way through without using magic except for healing, yes it would for me.

>>4147945
>i think roguelites are a term more used to describe less expansive roguelikes, but they still are roguelikes

It's far games that follow a similar vein, but do away with one of the cores of randomization, turn based gameplay and permadeath. A game can be small in scope but still a roguelike, or a game can be like DF and have the core aspects but go far beyond it.

Roguelite often gets used for games that are either simple or easy, but a roguelike can be both simple and easy as well. Roguelikelike is better to me.

>>4144647
>>4144608
>The problem is that most rpgs are turn based, so it's not like an action game where player skill can help you avoid damage.
Some interpretations of hit points in pen & paper RPGs say that hit points include things like the ability to avoid damage. I.e., your character's HP going doesn't necessarily mean the character has been physically hit. What hit points "really are" is actually somewhat controversial with the /tg/ crowd; recommended reading: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230801-Hit-Points-Why-were-they-designed-to-be-incoherent. According to this interpretation recovering HP doesn't have to mean healing wounds and bruises.

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>>4148000
Very true, and this is one of the reasons the West End Game Star Wars system is one of my favorites in tabletop roleplaying. Emphasis is always on not getting hit in the first place and any wound can be dangerous.

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>>4147914
>>4147873
Witness: a "narratology" (games as stories) vs "ludology" (games as systems) debate. It's okay, lads; your differences aren't really possible to reconcile.

>>4148016
but why is it that from a ludic view every system that uses resources to produce effects must be considered magic?

>>4148016
Also a completely pointless debate since the only person who knows which is right is OP and he's nowhere to be found.

>>4147043
Mecha combat is fantasy as far as I'm concerned. So are space battles and giant weaponized lasers and stuff like that. It's not "autism." I have nothing against fantasy or science fiction elements including magic. In fact I enjoy them. I do think the basic jrpg "formula" could be used successfully without any such elements at all though.

>>4147194
>Fantasy/french revolution action FF
That sounds awesome and could be a great example of "jrpg formula" working without needing fantastical combat elements.

>>4147205
This is fantasy because shooting syringes at people doesn't make them fit to fight after they've been injured. "Realistic" healing would probably be something like a blood transfusion. Like, you get hit, your medic tends to you, you lie down, and after a while you feel better. Not instantaneous.

>>4147763
>Maybe he meant nothing magical
Meaningless question that could be answered with any one single example out of dozens. Pokemon are not "magical" even though they have abilities that are exactly equivalent to magic. Physically impossible sci-fi technology isn't "magical" even though it serves exactly the same purpose.
>maybe he meant nothing that works the way magic tends to in an rpg type game.
This is obviously what he meant, and is the only interpretation of the question that makes any sense.

>>4148000
Thanks, that interpretation is interesting and solves the "instant healing" problem nicely.

>>4148071
That is not the case. Saying "this resource can either heal you 20 arbitrary points or injure you 20 arbitrary points" is functionally exactly the same as a magic spell. If you had a combat system based on classes of different abilities that don't overlap in impossible ways, it's not a problem. If you have (for example) martial arts movesets that can either damage or stun, healing movesets that can remove status afflictions or (slowly, gradually) restore health, and weapons combat movesets that allow close range or distance attacks, I wouldn't care if the various classes all draw down "MP" or "energy points" (or whatever you want to call them) from their own stores.

>>4148107
Not pointless since if the question is about story, the question is moot. Just change the word "magic" to "psionic arts" and you've done it.

>>4148107
>the only person who knows which is right is OP and he's nowhere to be found.
Or is he? Maybe he's subtlest troll /vr/ has yet known, watching us poor souls right now and laughing.

>>4148117
Are you conflating "magic" with "fantasy?" TF2 isn't a serious game in the slightest but there's no magic other than Soldier's wizard roommate who appears in a few Halloween events.

>>4148117
>Mecha combat is fantasy
Small mecha and power armor can be envisioned as hard SF physics-wise, and even economically justified in a sufficiently contrived setting (e.g., low gravity, difficult terrain).

>>4148130
My money's on this.

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>>4147194
>Fantasy/french revolution
Sadly, if this RPG were made, you'd most likely get the theme park version of the Revolution that doesn't end in (a fantasy counterpart to) the Reign of Terror and Napoleon's coup. You would probably play as a revolutionary and the revolutionaries would be portrayed as the good guys with little ambiguity. The really interesting version of the game (a tactical RPG where you follow the story of either a royalist who manages to flee when his side loses or a revolutionary on whom his comrades turn and end up getting involved with Noelopan) has a slim chance of being made.

Or am too pessimistic about this industry?

Spoiler for art with some nudity.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. If you took something that everyone accepts as a depiction of magic, and said "actually the midichlorians do it," it doesn't stop being "magic."
In a world where magic exists, magic isn't supernatural. I wonder if half of us aren't talking about one thing and half of us another.

>>4148150
TF2 is a great example. Not "magical" but "healing" soldiers by shooting syringes in their general direction is impossible: a fantastical element that might as well be magic.

>>4148154
You're right, small mechs or exo-suits could be done in a way that doesn't equate to magical abilities. But if you're talking about 500 foot tall metal things going at it with the agility of martial artists, that's a fantasy of magical powers or magical beings dressed up in a "sciency" coating.

>>4148195
>you'd most likely get the theme park version of the Revolution that doesn't end in (a fantasy counterpart to) the Reign of Terror and Napoleon's coup. You would probably play as a revolutionary and the revolutionaries would be portrayed as the good guys with little ambiguity.
That's just setting up the sequel! Depicting the revolutionaries as unambiguous good-guys would be great plot fuel for a reveal at the end where hotheads take over and in the next game (or chapter) you have to fight your own former allies.

>>4148184
>>4148130
He could even be one of those arguing. Hell, he could me pointing this out for the kicks.

>>4148117
>This is obviously what he meant, and is the only interpretation of the question that makes any sense.

I'd agree with you if your view didn't hinge on it not being a stupid question. This is 4chan and it was one short sentance with a demake image. Given this place it's almost more likely he meant the obvious one or something completely random.

>>4148208
He could even be me! What fun this place is. Keep up the fighting!

>>4148201
>In a world where magic exists, magic isn't supernatural.
Yes it is, magic would only not be supernatural if it was everywhere and everyone could do it, like D&D. And D&D is fucking garbage specifically because of how OP casters are compared to martials.
As to TF2, shooting syringes at your allies with a crossbow is silly and it's not meant to make logical sense, but to call it "might as well be magic" is about the same as claiming the Sniper is a magician because his piss makes enemies susceptible to mini-crits.

>>4148215
Honestly, I wouldn't hold a grudge against you. This is the most interesting JRPG thread we've had in a while.

>>4148213
Why does it matter though? Even if the OP was so stupid as to ask such an obvious question, the deeper question is still an interesting one that people have been discussing at length.

>>4148217
Not everyone can curl their tongue. Is curling your tongue supernatural? Supernatural means "beyond (the common understanding of) nature." So ghosts are "supernatural" because we understand that you can't see or interact with people after they have permanently died. I'm not going to argue with you about unimportant definitions of words though.

>might as well be magic
How about this: imagine taking all the classes of TF2 and changing them to magical fantasy characters. You could keep all the gameplay exactly the same and just depict them as shooting magical spells instead of bullets, curses instead of rockets, healing spells instead of shooting syringes, etc. Whether you dress it in "comical military," "high fantasy magical," or "sci-fi technology" dressings, you can make it work.
The interesting question is can you do the reverse? Can you take typical menu-driven JRPG combat with its usual complement of healing and damaging attacks spanning different distances and numbers of targets, and re-dress it in something that doesn't require any unexplainable abilities (i.e., equivalent to magic)?

I know that TF2 is not intended to read as magical, it's intended to read as cartoonish. You must be able to see where I'm coming from though.

>>4140157
Don't diss kraut space magic, anon.

>>4140074
Robots/ships/mechs/machinery fits the 'no magic' rule like a glove.

Just replace the skills with weaponry and healing/buffs with repairing equipment.

>>4148263
>Just replace the skills with weaponry and healing/buffs with repairing equipment.
If everything were machines, instant "healing" (in the form of repairing with spare parts or w/e) would actually make some sense. That's the one thing I can't see working with human(-like) characters (although previous points have addressed it by taking damage avoidance, abstraction of hit points, etc. into account).

>>4148242
I can see your logic but I find your logic stupid which is why I'm in disagreement. Magic can literally do anything, that is why it's magic. You could compare anything this way by saying "magic can do this." There's an explanation for how Medic's crossbow works, it just follows cartoon logic, but somehow that's not allowed by your standards since magic can ALSO use cartoon logic.

>>4148337
Right, I'm saying "anything could be explained by magic" but not the other way around. Could you take the common elements of jrpg combat (which are often explained by magic) and explain them in some realistic way (not cartoon logic, not magic, not Clarkeian "technology sufficiently advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic").

My original point was that I saw some elements (like instantaneous healing of injured people) that could not be explained in realistic ways, but as the discussion in the thread has gone on I've seen examples of alternative explanations that could actually work (e.g. substitute tanks for characters and have a mechanic fix the tanks when parts break down).

>There's an explanation for how Medic's crossbow works, it just follows cartoon logic, but somehow that's not allowed by your standards since magic can ALSO use cartoon logic.
In this example, that could be explained by magic but NOT by conventional means. It's allowed in "cartoon logic," but I see that as a subset of "fantasy logic" in which anything can be explained by magic. The "realistic" real world could be explained by magic too (e.g. "rain falls when god is crying"), and some aspects of "cartoon logic" could be consistent with conventional logic too (e.g., guns and explosives).

I'll just draw a venn diagram. Realism is a smaller subset of "all things imaginable" than sci-fi, fantasy, or cartoons.

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>>4148413

>>4148413
You should just say "I want gritty realism" then instead of saying "I don't want magic but I ALSO don't want [x] [y] [z] etc. because it's too close to magic"

>>4148123
>"this resource can either heal you 20 arbitrary points or injure you 20 arbitrary points"
tell that to people who get waaaaaaay more than 20 arbitrary points of damage from ODing on stuff that, in different quantities, was supposed to heal them 20 arbitrary health points. But the rest of the paragraph is mostly what I was describing the whole thread.... only thing is you seem to be adamant about healers not damaging, which is fine by me since i like role division, but is doable without magic if your resource can both power some sort of healing device and a bellic one.
>>4148117
>Mecha combat is fantasy
So, if the Kuratas and the MURRICAH FUCKYEAH 01 ever duke it out we'll be living in a fantasy world?
>>4148195
I actually wanted the ARPG pasteurized revolutionary thing version instead of the one you want.... sorry, but if I wanted what you described I'd play xbox or something. Tactical RPGs kinda burned me out lately.

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>>4148429
>Tactical RPGs kinda burned me out lately.
You've played pic related, right?

>>4148421
It's not what I want, I'm just enjoying thinking about the significance of the original question and what it really means. It seems like the only meaningful distinction between "magic" and "realism" is that magic includes all possibilities while realism only includes things that can actually happen. Impossible sci-fi technology or cartoon physics might not be described as "magic" in their contexts, but by virtue of being impossible they can't be in the set of "realistic things allowed by conventional logic". They are incompatible with realism but fully compatible with magic.
You are right in that the conclusion must be "total realism" if you want to avoid anything that "might as well be magic," but it took a little work to get there.

>>4148429
>doable without magic if your resource can both power some sort of healing device and a bellic one.
I agree, I just can't think of many examples of a "healing device" that causes mortally injured people to feel strong enough to fight. Blood transfusion is one, but that requires inputs other than "electrical power" (or whatever your universal resource would be). The "forget the bodies, use machines to fight and mechanics to fix them" explanation works, but is a bit of a narrative cop-out (who is controlling the machines? Why don't the bad guys just shoot the pilots instead of trying to damage their machines?).

>Mecha combat is fantasy
I meant the 50-stories-tall-but-moves-with-the-grace-of-a-figure-skater kind and already clarified that.

>>4148429
>if I wanted what you described I'd play xbox or something
I was thinking about something that would look and play more like >>4148445 or Suikoden II with the appropriate setting and atmosphere than Ass Creed, if that's what you mean by "Xbox". Or maybe a non-tactical affair closer to the escape sequences in FFVI and CT.

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Guys, cop-out of the century. Anything is possible and nothing is magic because everything takes place in VR/cyberspace. Or, to make shit cooler, AR.

>>4148445
been meaning to play it forever, but never touched it... I'm used to SRW, FFT, Nippon icchi weeaboo stuff and yggdra union(basically, fatlus fanboy).... what does it bring to the table in comparison?
>>4148454
But you can cause healing effects on biological matter with energy. Google for mole removal and you can probably find videos of doctors using electrical heated knifes to cut moles and then cauterize the wound with an ionically charged piece of metal. This could run with the same electricity you'd use for a defibrilator(revive), or a railgun(damage). You have to remember that, in jrpg combat, the players never receive mortal wounds unless the stats say so... a 1 hp dude is mostly as healthy as a 954 hp dude, with just some minor cuts (that could be cauterized). That's why, for instance, killed characters can't be ressurected with things like phoenix down.... it was meant to raise them from fainting, not give new life to a corpse. The pilot things, if the most sensitive part of a robot, besides the core reactor, is the pilot, then you bet your ass the engineer is going to make it the most protected point.
About the mecha combat thing, you were answering a dude that mentioned front-mission, which doesn't seem, from screenshots, to fit your description

>>4148524
I don't have any idea what mole removal has to do with making someone who has been injured so severely as to be unable to stand suddenly able to fight again in an instant. Cauterizing all their wounds would be insanely painful, likely put them into shock, and would do nothing to restore their strength (it would just keep them from losing anymore blood).
I do like the interpretation that 1 hp doesn't mean "near death," that it's something more like when a boxer gets knocked out. But I still can't see a way around needing to perform blood transfusion, and you'd probably need massive doses of painkillers and adrenaline (or epinephrine or amphetamine or whatever) as well (both of which would just make the person able to stand again, not actually restore their health).

I think the problem is that rpg characters generally just take way too much of a beating to be realistic. You either have to tone down the violence or make the characters inhumanly strong (e.g. protected by robotic exo-suits).

>>4148524
>what does it bring to the table in comparison?
The biggest difference is that your units are modestly-sized, clunky "low-magic" mechs, which means they don't heal on their own, but you can fully customize them by buying or looting parts. (And you can build new ones from scratch, too.) Every single customization is visible on the 3D model during gameplay and in the cutscenes. The game has a very different atmosphere from any fantasy SRPG. It's something of a techno-thriller with politics and a dose of "war is hell". It takes its nearish future setting seriously and shows it off through things like the fake Internet with websites and email that you can access between the missions.

>>4148571
I meant gameplay-wise
>>4148541
But doesn't that concern over the overbeating bleeds into videogames in general? how can sonic fall in lava and reappear, how can a soldier in an fps take so many shots as long as he gets healed by a doctos?

>>4148582
>I meant gameplay-wise
The mech customization is the key difference. It becomes mandatory in the later missions, and you can get a lot of mileage out of specialized builds. Because you can change so much, it feels more consequential than the usual equipment customization in other games.

>>4148582
Yes, most video games aren't realistic. There are some genres like "simulators" a la Densha de Go that go for extreme realism, and the vast majority of people consider those boring.

I don't think a "realistic" platformer would make any sense because the entire genre emerged more from the constraints of the hardware (e.g. it all takes place in the 2D plane of the screen) than from being an imitation of any real-world meaningful idea. It's an abstraction that doesn't really make any sense. You take a Super Mario Bros and replace the sprites with actors and props and expect it to look like anything that has ever happened in the world. Why would everything move around only in one dimension like that? How does Mario jump 5 times his own height in the air? Platformers are pure gameplay, which is why they were one of the first genres to become genuinely fun to play.

RPGs and FPS are more true-to-life. You could take an RPG and turn it into a movie scene by scene and it would work reasonably well. Even though they are also confined to 2D spaces, they present a top-down view that gives an impression of actual spaces a person could move through. FPS depict a 3D world that is similarly conceivable as a real space. So it's very possible to design an extremely realistic FPS, although it might not be any fun to play.

>>4148636
so, unless every non-simulation game is considered magic, it's double standards to not handwave stuff like a medkit healing anything in an rpg but accept it on a survival horror. I mean, you mentioned movies but even most of those are fairly fantastical when scrutinized... Bruce Willis characters might as well be wizards

>>4148884
Sure, you're right. And so what? Of course movies are fantastical. They're movies, not documentaries. Why would you get worked up about medkits in a survival horror game when the vast majority of them are about zombies or god knows what supernatural threat.

I don't see a double standard though, nobody is saying that RPGs shouldn't have fantastical elements, we're just talking about whether one could totally eschew any fantastical element and still be a fun game.

>>4148218
>This is the most interesting JRPG thread we've had in a while.

Now that's funny.

>>4148946
>we're just talking about whether one could totally eschew any fantastical element and still be a fun game.
no, we're not. We're talking about wether fantastical elements in JRPGs are always magic or not. We would be talking about what you described if OP defined what he meant by magic, but since he didn't we're trying to cover-up for him. My point is that every game has fantastical elements, so, unless they're specified to be magic, or work like magic in-plot, they're either not magic or every non-simulation game is about magic. The second option would render the whole discussion pointless since the answer to OP's question would be "no, you can't make any games without magic". Since we're all here to talk about retro games I propose we take the other route and accept that, while fantastical, not all games are about magic, so we can keep talking since we all seem to have a lot to say in the matter.
Now, i keep to my initial claim that, even while working with a common pool of numbers that can be used to produce various effects, it's still possible to make it so that this isn't called magic, with enough elaboration from the developer, or abstraction from the player, provided it's not magic in-plot, and doesn't work like magic in-plot. So, a soldier using Tech points to throw a ranged slice with his sword is practicing magic unless his sword is made of some technology that emits particles or energy, and those particles or that energy are a part of his pool of arbitrary numbers. One could argue that the sword has a near limitless supply of particles and make it so that his concentration is spent instead, and yes, it is possible to 'spend' concentration and fatigue it, so arbitrary numbers could represent it. If that was the case then, said character would still need equipment to cover for his capacity to do anything using concentration points. [cont]

>>4149619
[cont] So, in this scenario, a character who is a field medic could spend his concentration to heal, by concentrating on using his skills combined with having some sort of medical equipment in his inventory(or it being said that he always carries it so it doesn't need to be inside the inventory), while he could anso concentrate on striking accurately with his weapon(accuracy up), or concentrating on exerting his full force for an attack. Concentration skills like those would be more limited in scope than magic in jrpgs, but still be able to cause a variety of effects without the game losing all characteristics which make it look like an oldschool RPG. That's just one example... the one post I was replying to when the discussion about games in general being unrealistic was saying it's unrealistic to heal HP by cauterizing wounds, my argument being that it's as real as a soldier moving as if nothing happened after being shot in the leg by an m16 on an fps.

>>4149201
Because it's true.

>the night /vr/ went /tg/