Nethack and other Rogueclones: Which should get into?

Larn123 was my preferred game. Never liked Nethack compared to larn, then again I was 10 or something. There is a learning curve to knowing the monsters and what to type to cast the spells, but I remember having a ton of fun playing it.

>>4098807
>>4098807
>Yeenoghu
Goddamn Yeenoghu. That's super rare, btw, but he fucked me up once too before I was prepared to take his triple-flail dog-ass down.

The key to nethack is two fold:
1) take notes on EVERYTHING you observe. I have a file of notes over 2000 lines long that I still update and consult while playing.

2) very minor spoiler there is an oracle not too far into the dungeon; find her and give her money, she'll give you major clues. Fortune cookies are also terrific sources of information. Most features of the game are hinted at by these means, although sometimes cryptically. Once again, write EVERYTHING down.

remember, dying is part of the fun.

also, play as a dwarven valkyrie until you can ascend. you dark vision, gnomes and dwarves are friendly, you can carry a shit ton of stuff, and combat is usually simple melee.

>>4098818
so is Larn123 a bit easier to get into?

>>4098835
yeah, guess I will be back, just so pissed off that my really nicely developed character got suddenly utterly annihilated.

Is Yeenoghu always gonna be hanging around for me on level 7 now or was it just bad luck that, the second time i get that far he is there again?


>>4098841
was playing as lawful human valkyrie (got recommended on the wiki) and already had excalibur, not that it helped much..

>>4098845

Yes, I remember playing Nethack also. I could not get into it because of the random killings. Larn does have mobs that will kill you in 1 hit, but you can always see them. For some reason, I remember Nethack having a very random process but I could just have a bad memory.

Nethack has food also, right?

>>4098852
yep, took me a while to figure out you just eat (most) things you kill. Things like acid blobs can strangely be eaten but anything older than about 50 turns can give you food poisoning, which actually kills you in a bout 15 more turns.

Things are really counter-intutive. A lot of seemingly minor things kill or do huge damage while other things are permissable, if not completely necessary for survival.

Your pets will not walk over or stand on cursed items

If anyone is interested, ASCII Dreams Roguelike competition winner of 2013 was:

Tales of Maj'Eyal: Age of Ascendancy


I am downloading it now to give it a shot.
https://te4.org/

>>4098807
There are "competitive" roguelikes - DC Stone Soup, ToME4. Many people play them online, beating them many, many times over with different handicaps/difficulties etc. to show off their skill. If you die, you either got very unlucky or did something wrong. Winning is the point here.

NetHack, Elona, ADOM - these aren't meant to be "won". You win - game ends, arivederci, goodbye, no one cares. The million different ways to die are meant to make the game longer so you can have fun before running the game to its limit where there's no point in playing it anymore. Enjoy it while it lasts. "Getting good" at this type of roguelike actually makes the gameplay less fun, so not reading up on spoilers and such is a good idea.

>>4098879
That is entirely wrong. Except for the being more enjoyable when you don't know anything.

>>4098879
ok, but it really sucks getting lucky and having good items and a real chance to get somewhere, before suddenly, out of nowhere, dying a totally avoidable death cause you didn't know about something basic yet..

is the general consensus that nethack is the best of the enjoy-dying roguelikes?

>>4098902
I'd say IVAN is better for fun deaths.

>>4098907
Seconded, IVAN is definitely winning the "losing is fun" contest.
>>4098867
I tried this and didn't enjoy it for very long. It's relatively simple to get into and controls well, but I just wasn't engaged with the slow starts I was getting.

>>4098902
You can choose between
1) Reading up "how-to" guides then breezing through these because of how easy they are to break over your knee when you know what you're doing, like most single-player RPGs in general. This is Nethack, ADOM, Elona and co.
What's the point, though?

2) Playing blind, dying a thousand times over and doing things *not* how they're supposed to be done but learning, eventually. Then you get the good feeling of having overcome this challenge yourself and not having been fed the "winning recipe" online.
Are you having fun? Then you've hit the right spot and found the genre at its best.

If you're doing 2) but not having fun anyway try 1). You're going to burn out quickly, though.

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>>4098807
>Which should get into

The one you make yourself.

>is there a version of rogue that isn't quite so randomly unfair and actually gives me a little bit more information about the items and their status that I encounter?

In retro ones, not really. It's kind of a hallmark of the genre. There's a reason these games were so niche for so long. Many more modern ones are more forgiving though. I think Dungeons of Dredmor might suit you, or ask around on newer rl forums. I mostly just know the older nasty ones.

I used to play Nethack without spoilers, and I would not recommend that to anyone.

Best n00b friendly roguelikes are Brogue and DoomRL, I never read spoilers for them and wouldn't want to. POWDER is good also, very much like Nerhack.

I beat NetHack by spoiling myself, and still it was fucking hard. I was so angry I named my character Bitch, because I didn't think I could get very far with her, but what do you know? I actually ascended that time. That was last year, I had a great time and I've been itching to pick it up again to try another class, maybe play without the wiki this time, but I don't know, it has become natural to look things up. I think you should play the way that is entertaining to you, be it blind, semi blind or full on spoilers.

Nethack is my favorite roguelike, I can't seem to get into the others.

Here are a few tips:
-As someone said, having a pet is really important because they won't step into cursed items. You should get a leash so it's easier to test this without having to wait a thousand turns. The messagge "your pet moves only reluctantly" when it steps over your stuff means it's cursed
-Identification is EVERYTHING. There are many ways besides identify scrolls/spells to start getting an idea of what you got in the beggining of the game. Remember you can use the command Name to name (duh) an entire class of objects that you think is a certain item. Let's say you're pretty sure your steel wand is a magic missile wand, you can name that steel wand "magic missile" and then all other steel wands will appear as "steel wand named magic missile". Its pretty helpful
-To identify wand, first make sure it's not cursed, then write with your fingers on the dust something, "Elbereth" is reccommended, and then write in the same place with the wand you want to identify and choose to add to the current writing. Try to interpret the message the game gives you. For example, if it says that the bugs have stopped moving, it could be a wand of death or sleeping. If it says that the previous message vanished it could be a teleport wand, a wand of make invisible or a cancellation wand

>>4098818
I cant find anything about larn123. Bunch of other forks though. What sets 123 apart?

>>4099269
>I was so angry I named my character Bitch, because I didn't think I could get very far with her
I name my characters Hitler so that they will do nothing wrong

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>>4099248
>I used to play Nethack without spoilers, and I would not recommend that to anyone.
The uninitiated should get a few hints, but I wouldn't go that far.

start as dwarven valkyrie
the dungeon is random, but has a definite structure
pets don't like to walk on cursed items
metal armor interferes with spell casting

in general you should take notes, use #adjust and come up with a standard mapping for your equipment, and remember, as in dwarf fortress, dying is fun.

if you feel like the game is unfair, at least get good enough to reach dungeon level 10 reliably. if you can do that, you never need spoilers again

if you are upset about losing a really great character, know there are hazards which can kill even the strongest characters every step of the way, although with some experience even weak characters can navigate most situations. The game is about situational awarness, making wise choices, and minimizing risks. Also know that your first ascension will take over 100000 time steps, which probably translates into 20+ hours of playing.

I have played Nethack on and off for years now and I have never read any spoilers. There are few things which come by accident of course. Given that I started to play Nethack when I was 12 and I'm now 30+ I have never won a single game. But to my defense I have been very casual about it and there has been few 5 year gaps between.

NH, Angband and ADOM (the older versions before the jewing) are my staples. At some point Omega was the most interesting game out there but that haven't been updated for years.

I don't consider Dungeon Crawl as a roguelike at all but I guess it's fun as well because seeing so many people play it.

I am on Japan time so sorry for very late replies..

>>4098949
yeah, just installed it and can already tell its going to be too slow for me too..

>>4098985
thank you, i guess i am having fun really. Just really wondering if Yenoghu is going to keep kicking my ass on level 7 now. Any idea if this is the case?

>>4099134
True. Also actually bought Dod, beat it quite easily and then got bored of it pretty quickly after.

>>4099248
thanks for the suggestions!!

>>4099269
thank you, this is helpful. I was sick of not knowing much about my items until i suddenly died. As long as its not cursed its pretty safe to wear and wield, if not use and quaff, so this is good. The wand thing is also totally new to me and should help.

>>4099425
thanks, i have read it gets easier after the first part of the game, bit shocked at how long the whole of it is but I think I want this challenge.

Same question: Do you know if Yeenoghu is going to keep reappearing for me at level 7 now, since previously spawned there/ bones level (or something)?

>>4099475
thanks for the suggestions!

>>4100428
It took a little over two years of determined effort to ascend the first time, but it feels bretty gud to become a demigod. Don't get discouraged, it's one of the best games out there once you get a strategy down. And realize even if you can win, there are 100 different ways to play the game.

>>4100428
Oh yeah, the big red & might be in a bones file (I think this can happen, but may be wrong). If you find yourself recognizing familiar scenery one day, you may want to get to a lower level asap and just avoid the floor. I wouldn't worry about it too much. The game can kill you in a million other different ways. Like I said, meeting that asshole is possible early, but extremely uncommon. You have to be doing something you probably shouldn't be doing to get him on your tail that early, like attracting water demons who summon nastier things.

>>4100445
ok thanks, i guess there is the chance of just running from him, but i read he follows you up and down stairs. We'll see, maybe with a potion of invisibility or i could teleport or something.

>>4100501
>but i read he follows you up and down stairs.
From memory monsters (and your own pets!) can only follow you up and down stairs if they are right next to you. If there is a single space between you and the baddie they should stay where they are.

There some fun with rerolling character.

be priest with book of identify
be wizard with rings of polymorph+polymorph control

from turn one

but as wizard you still need some levels until you can polymorph to female black dragon

lay eggs in closed rooms, so your children wont eat unhatched eggs

enjoy your black dragon army

No decent rogue games hold your hand ingame. Wtf are you expecting? This is real rpg. Game is hard, if you like to win go play Spyro

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>>4098998
>programming on windows
ayyyy

>>4102342
Windows Subsystem for Linux.

Google it, retard.

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>>4102364
oh god

>>4099248
>I used to play Nethack without spoilers, and I would not recommend that to anyone.

There was a guy on Usenet who got pretty close to an ascension, unspoiled. Google "saga of ellora the elven archer" if you want to read it.
The trick for being unspoiled is apparently to take notes and try different characters, oh and pay the oracle because his words are golden for the unspoiled.

Generally the thing in Nethack is to be super cautious, and try to always have an escape plan or five. There was a dude in the Tournament way back who ascended like 21 out of 25 characters - if you're careful and know your stuff, "random" deaths become rare.

>>4102364
I know about it. Still you can't do most of the shit that makes linux cool as a programming evironment.

>>4102578
Anything you can do on Ubuntu, you can do with WSL. I run an entire C toolchain on it without a single issue. Easier to work with than a VM or remote terminal, too, especially for cross compiling.

brogue is very intuitive and you get all the possible info in game, what spells monsters have, even what items they hold if any, how much hits it will take them to kill you etc. it's also quite minimalistic in design, not a lot of content but it's all very refined and balanced, kinda like ftl.

I used to love these games but they just kept breaking my heart with their pointless obtuseness. It's like with adventure games where you have to read the designer's mind to find the exact right pixel to click on or you'll be stuck forever... it's fun until you've finished exploring every path that's available prior to that chokepoint, but then you're just stuck, and you have to bang your head against a boring wall until you figure it out or lose interest. That just feels like a timesink to me.

Today I am all about Tales of Maj'Eyal. I'm not sure what you dudes mean who are saying it's too slow at the start or whatever. Too difficult, you mean? Easy enough but too boring? I don't know. You can blow past that stuff fast with a bit of experience though. Get a strong, long-range attack with a low-ish cooldown period, assign it to some convenient key, and then just autoexplore and hit that key every time a monster stops you. There now you're at level 8 or some such and you've unlocked some interesting powers. (I mean it's not really that simple but once you're a bit skilled it's pretty close to being that simple.)

Most of the mage classes, and some of the mind-power-based classes, provide long-range attacks like this that are unlocked at low levels. You may also be able to find a strong-ish wand of conjuration at a staff store, or a torque of mindblast at a mindstar store.

It's a great game, easily the best roguelike I've tried (but I haven't tried all that many). It does lack some of the magical deep mystery of NetHack, that feeling that anything could happen. But eventually that feeling wears away and leaves you sitting in a pile of obtuse little puzzles and nerdy references to random crap. Or so it went with me.

>>4103448

(Also note that with most characters, you start within a dungeon but you can immediately leave it if you want, to visit towns or other dungeons or whatever. That is how you would find a store right at the start, for instance.)

>>4103448
>I used to love these games but they just kept breaking my heart with their pointless obtuseness.

That's why I like many of the "smaller" roguelikes more like Shiren, Powder, Smart Kobold etc. They can still be quite challenging, but the limited scope makes them more practical for figuring out what's best on your own which I like.

Also well worth listening to for anyone just trying to get into these was a recent episode of Roguelike Radio on being good at roguelikes. The podcast is good in general, but that should have some useful tips for new players. Like the importance of making a cup of tea.

>>4098807
UnNethack for android on google play store. Its NetHack made a litle simpler, u dont have to know all the commands n stuff u can just tab and choose action. Real comfy.

>>4098807
The two most important things to learn are that your first "win" of something like Nethack, ADoM, ToME, even Rogue will likely take you months or even years of trying even using spoilers.

So don't take dying a lot as setbacks, take them all as learning experiences. Even your first win is really just the beginning of learning. And also remember that even though many things are random in any given game, you winning isn't a random event. Very good players can expect to win with almost anything that's thrown at them. Record for ADoM for example is 27 ascensions in a row.

>>4098949
Learn to love the auto-explore button, it speeds things right up

>>4102342
this

literally the only thing that has stopped me from seriously getting into programming is the fact that i have to use windows

>>4105543
>the fact that i have to use windows

But you don't.

>>4105569
yes i do because i like video games

considering getting a laptop just so i can put openbsd on it

>>4105543
Mac fan?

>>4105593
uh no

i hate apple

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>>4098807
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is better for starters, it has a tutorial mode wich explains commands and combat, different game modes, there's a lot of species and jobs to build your character, religions add flavor to the game, the dungeon is varied and feels more alive, better than Corridors and Rooms: the roguelike
But if you really want to start with nethack do as everyone says and run dwarf valkirie

>>4098807
>hope I don't get anything wrong or offend anyone

triggered

>>4105543
Turn on Windows dev options, install bash/ubuntu, install gcc. Write code.

Unless you're not on Win10, in which case you should also install an operating system that receives consistent security patches.

>>4105610
>But if you really want to start with nethack do as everyone says and run dwarf valkirie

While you're just starting maybe, but it's always best to experiment and think for yourself.

>>4105656
Seconded. Half the fun of a roguelike is learning how to approach things on your own terms.

>>4105574

>more than 1000 games released on Steam for linux just last year
>at least 20 good ones

Eh, between the explosion in native support and Wine, I haven't missed Windows since I wiped the partition. Maybe if I had friends who were always "dood, this one triple-A game, man!"

Still, you could just pop open a virtual machine, like Virtualbox, and work from there.

>>4105659
It's not just more fun, it's how you get better and really learn the game. When you're trying to win through preset strategies you think much more rigidly than when you're trying out whatever you have.

>>4105645
there is no reason to use anything microsoft unless you are working with a group of people who only know how to use word and excel.