What could have prevented Toshinden from becoming irrelevant?

After the first two games I think next were too anime-japanese and didn't have fruity-juicy enough gameplay. I wish they made a new Toshinden game, it really was a cool fighting game.

>>4089607
Toshinden 2 got already welcomed with shrugs, even from those who loved the first episode.

>>4089618
Toshinden 2 was best for me, but I didn't play much Toshinden 1 and 3,4. I also have a sentiment because I think it was my first PSX game and I played it before on an arcade machine.

>>4089628
Toshinden was everyone's first PSX game, but I feel that many people moved on in 1996. Why? I don't really know.

>>4089636
I think that Tekken and Soul Blade were strong competition and Toshinded was more japanese than the other two. Also devs made some bad choices with later games I think. Who know what's the real story behind this though.

>>4089601
If they didn't develop the games backwards with each sequel.

Like, fix the fucking animations, and reduce the polygon flickering. The DOS port of the first game looks better than the PSX one in motion. The animations themselves look like they use 5fps keyframes with no in-betweening, the DOS port added in-betweening to them and it looks ten times smoother for that alone.

Oh, and make the controls actually responsive. No game in the series had responsive controls. All of your input was processed only on every 4-5th frame, which not only gave the game huge control lag, but also made it impossible to do certain moves. The DOS port fixed that too, and you could do different tactics on it, like doing an air backflip with Kayin just before you land - pull it off while jumping behind the enemy and you end up doing back damage (2x multiplier) and a lot of stacked hits, it almost kills an enemy. It is impossible to do on the PSX original because input is simply not processed before you land, you'll either do the move too soon or you'll land before pulling it off.

The later games also had some questionable design choices. I think they made a few characters look worse in the sequels. Fo, Ellis and Kayin for example. Gaia should've retained his armour, at least as a secret character.

The 3rd game was an awesome party game by the way. You could have Michael Jackson fight Jason Voorhees or Catwoman. It was hilarious.

>>4089636
Tekken 2 came out and it was actually half decent. Easy to control and with impressive graphics and animation, that alone captured the attention of casuals and it became the de facto PSX fighting game.

File: hqdefault[1].jpg (14KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 480x360px

Toshinden was never a good game but it WAS a launch game and pack-in so between legitimate excitement for the next gen platform and Sony's enormous marketing blitz it felt amazing and many of us myself included can't help but taste the nostalgia off it in particular.

>>4089668
I also feel that Tekken 2 had more "street cred" because it was an arcade game. Thus the game was shown in all the arcades first; there were expectations for a port, as well as a competitive scene. Also, it was properly marketed by Namco.

Comparatively, Toshinden 2 came out of nowhere and you couldn't really try or see it. You had to rely on magazines to make your opinion, and it didn't look very appealing there.

>>4089714
>Comparatively, Toshinden 2 came out of nowhere and you couldn't really try or see it. You had to rely on magazines to make your opinion, and it didn't look very appealing there.
Toshinden 2 had an arcade port that was distributed by Capcom, but what really killed the Toshinden series was the fact that it was published by Takara, who never understood how fighting games work.

>>4089710
>Toshinden was never a good game

The first game was good.
But then they kept making it weirder and weirder with each sequel, without really pinning down the gameplay. The first game was street fighter slash virtua fighter, the second one added ground stomps, running attacks and a new super bar, the third game was an... arena fighter? and the fourth one tried chimping Soul Blade. But everything they added felt more like an experimentation, rather than refining of a formula.

Meanwhile, the game suffered from major gameplay problems (unresponsive controls) and it looked like ass in motion, two problems they never ever fixed. The DOS version fixed them (while downscaling the 3d graphics in every other way), but that was a port by a different team...

>>4089714
Toshinden 2 got an arcade release, though it was more like a straight port.

Oh it also had unlockables but no way to save them. Japan got a Toshinden 2 PLUS version, that added a save feature...

>>4089718
Never saw Toshinden in any arcade desu.

Takara adapted a lot of SNK games, what didn't they understand? They could have made an epic RPG with the Toshinden universe, or even a racing game, by the way. So many wasted opportunities...

>>4089724
>Never saw Toshinden in any arcade desu.

And I never saw Tekken in an arcade either. By the time it became popular, people weren't going to arcades anymore.

>>4089724
>They could have made an epic RPG with the Toshinden universe, or even a racing game, by the way. So many wasted opportunities...

They made a puzzle game, a super deformed chibi fighter, and a card quest game. I think their fanbase might have been worn down by the time. That, or an RPG could've been too big for them to make, or a fighting game wouldn't translate well into it.

>>4089710
>Toshinden was never a good game

You mean, apart from the god-tier music, good character design, cool graphics for 1995, insane fun, etc.?

>>4089723
>The first game was good
Ehhhhh... It was "good" at the time relatively speaking but it wasn't great. I remember feeling like "Why would I want Tekken? I already have Toshinden" then I played it at someone's house and saw how it was a much more nuanced and balanced game than Toshinden was then Tekken 2 actually came to our arcade and Toshinden was a distant memory.

>>4089734
Speaking of which, the failure (?) of Tobal as a fighting game + RPG package will always puzzle me.

Especially Tobal 2 that looked so good, was so cool to play, had so many characters, etc.

>>4089736
>insane fun
That's a pretty subjective thing. Yes, my friends and I had lots of fun playing Toshinden but a huge part of that was the novelty at the time. Ditto for the cool graphics and arguably the music, being many of our first taste of CD audio in a video game.

File: 0315_1.jpg (52KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 600x600px

>>4089724
>Never saw Toshinden in any arcade desu.
It might had been a JP/Asia-only release.
>Takara adapted a lot of SNK games, what didn't they understand?
All of Takara's SNK ports on 16-bit consoles were outsourced to some company named Monolith (no relation to the guys that made Xenosaga). Toshinden was developed by TAMsoft.

File: Kusoge_fanatic.jpg (2MB, 2304x1728px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2304x1728px

>>4089601
>>4089607
There is a Toshinden game on the Wii. While not new, it's not old either.


>>4089618
I actually favored 2 the most as well. It was also at my local Capcom owned arcade. The Playstation version was one of my very first games I had shipped from Japan, so there is nostalgic value to me for 2 as well.


>>4089636
Toshinden was my first Playstation game. Moved on because I still preferred the play of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo and other 2D fighting games at that time.


>>4089710
I don't recall the game being a pack-in title aside from a demo disc which allowed only Eiji and Ellis.


>>4089724
I think Takara was the publisher and Tamsoft the developers. Tamsoft are the makers of those simple 1500/2000/3000 line of games (budget titles that sold for $15-30) where the Onechanbara and the Earth Defense Force series originated from.

>>4089601
Being relevant to begin with.

>>4089780
t. underage troll

File: I_should_buy_a_Wii-U_or_at_least_a_Wii.jpg (689KB, 2592x1944px) Image search: [Google]

689KB, 2592x1944px

>>4089601
Also Kotobuki Tsukasa's character designing is so very '90s.

>>4089729
>tfw born in the right timeline to witness a packed Playdium with a motion controlled version of Tekken 3

File: Gex_004.jpg (71KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 1024x768px

Toshinden was never good, even though I enjoy the third game where you have dozens of random characters like Michal Jackson and Jason Voorhees.

But what happens is that not every series last. That happens mainly with series that got surpassed by other games or made redundant thanks to gamers taste changing. And some that sold well just 'cause they were hyped.
We have many games that sold millions but now are completely forgotten, like Toshinden, Gex, Croc, Double Dragon, Driver, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, Streets of Rage and almost every classic Sega game. In 20 years we possibly will still have Zelda, but Halo will be forgotten. We can see it happening right now, not only with Halo but also with Soul Calibur. Who gives a fuck about Soul Calibur nowadays?
Gex and Croc sold well because they filled the mascot platformers void on a console that didn't have Mario. But now they would be redundant.
Toshinden sold well as it was one of the first Playstation games and was a Street Fighter wannabe in 3D, 3 years before an actual Street Fighter in 3D, SF EX.
I don't believe that, let's say, God of War will last for more 10 years. The games were hyped, but God of War 3, the series best selling game, sold less than 5 million. That's less than Driver, Spyro, Crash or Warzone 2100, all on the original Playstation. God of War 2 sold less than PS Frogger. And that's way less than Donkey Kong 64, a game universally bashed, or Zumba Fitness and Carnival Games, both Wii shovelware.

What would make Toshinden relevant among so many other games when they bring nothing new to the table?

File: Nitoshinden (43).png (436KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

436KB, 1024x768px

>>4089724
>They could have made an epic RPG with the Toshinden universe, or even a racing game, by the way.
They did something better.

>>4089849
>completely forgotten, like Toshinden, Gex, Croc, Double Dragon, Driver, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater, Streets of Rage
I remember each of them though.

>Who gives a fuck about Soul Calibur nowadays?
No releases anymore, for sure people aren't going to be crazy about it.

I don't disagree with your post, it's just a tad excessive--and frankly I don't even know what "God of War" is.

>>4089601
probably not getting completely BTFO by Soul Blade

>>4089601
Haven't heard of it

Street fighter was more well-known at the time

>>4089849
>Toshinden was never good

The first game was good.

>>4089774
>There is a Toshinden game on the Wii. While not new, it's not old either.

iirc that's just a recycling of the name, it has zero properties from the last series, other than being a "fighting game with weapons".

File: toshinden.jpg (21KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 480x360px

>>4089601

Not looking like complete ass probably would have helped. Not even that huge a graphics whore but fuck this is how you want to compete with Soul Edge?

>>4091303
Yeah the Wii game had brand new characters designed by someone else other than Masami Obami.

I loved playing as the old China man and Ellis, mondo, and ryuji

>>4092405

everything else aside how was it? A quick google does not show it looking too good

>>4092409
Looks fine to me, you're still a weapon based fighter on an arena, you still have gauge consuming super moves, you can still side step.

>>4092413
You still have a guilty gear style BURST.
But the game is free roaming instead of faux-2D plane OH WELL.

Let's be honest here, the only reason we got interested in the games in the first place were the character designs by Obami. The gameplay never did anything special even with the innovations like the wall combos in Toshinden 3, the one button special moves, the burst bar or the trio gameplay in Toshinden 4.

>>4092423
>burst bar
By bar I mean Orbs.

>>4089668
>The 3rd game was an awesome party game by the way. You could have Michael Jackson fight Jason Voorhees or Catwoman. It was hilarious.
So much this. A large cast of characters (majority being clones with an added extra move but whatever) + one button specials = a more accessible fighting game than even Smash Bros.

These games have ZERO, Z E R O competitive value. They ain't even good for casual single player play either since you get fucking text for endings for beating the game.

File: ellis sofia toshinden.jpg (100KB, 447x700px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 447x700px

Masami Obari wasn't Toshinden's character designer. The characters were designed by Tsukasa Kotobuki, Obari's pupil and great friend who also did designs for Saber Marionette J and Dante's Inferno anime.
Obari directed the Toshinden anime, with designs by Kotobuki, and was in turn influenced by Kotobuki's weird way of drawing cheeks, what Kotobuki did as an experiment to make characters "cuter".
Kotobuki also did some nice Street Fighter doujin. Google "tsukasa kotobuki doujin"

The game also wasn't similar to Soul Edge in any way. Yeah, the characters had weapons, but the game played more like Street Fighter with sidesteps, then with easy special moves controls in the later games.

Now how I would prevent Toshinden from being just another forgotten game...
Well, I would relaunch it as "the ultimate 90's anime game". Give it cel-shaded graphics akin to the newest Guilty Gear and Dragon Ball games, keeping Kotobuki's style. Keep the one-button special moves and make the stages diverse, with ring-outs, walls and ceiling. Give it a nice story mode with stories for each character.
Perhaps even give it a character creation mode, with features similar to the Rival Schools game where you interact with the main characters and mix it with the groups from Toshinden Subaru, so your custom character will have to join a group. Make the player feel inside a 90's cartoon and market this as the game's main feature.

>>4089780
>>4089782
Toshinden sold over 1 million, the characters (mainly Sofia) were used by Sony to promote Playstation but I don't believe it ever influenced any other game to be considered actually relevant. It's like Gex. The entire series sold over 15 million, but it was never actually relevant and now it's dead and forgotten.

>>4092558
Oh fuck, didn't know that. That's for the correction.

>>4092491
>They ain't even good for casual single player play either since you get fucking text for endings for beating the game.

In the first game you also got demonstrations of your characters ultimate moves. I beat it with every character on hard and wrote down each combination. Some of those moves were more useful than others....