RTS games with least action per minute/better design

I for one am not totally sure... most games then had poor AI and you would never want many things "automated" because the computer would fuck up your army or base.

What's an example of something in Starcraft that you wanted to be automated?

What separates RTS from a turn-based strategy is that aspect of things moving simultaneously, and the "each unit's move is important" is mostly swapped out in this genre for "I have many units that I'm throwing at you". I'm not saying these games don't exist, just that they would be more uncommon.

The only RTS I can think of that is a bit slower-paced is Warcraft III, but that's not retro, so...

>>4070016
>What's an example of something in Starcraft that you wanted to be automated?
Units collecting recources, going collecting stuff on their own. Telling units to go scout themselves would be nice, then return.

Actually the screen thing is much more important for me.

Warcraft 3 is a disaster, but for other reasons. There is a reason nobody plays this game on battlenet.

>>4070021
Scouting is hard to automate - where should they go? If they pick the wrong spot or don't see what you want to see if the enemy base, you'll blame the computer for doing a poor job, when it was your own laziness for not doing it yourself. I think they didn't automate workers because you might want them to either build buildings, get minerals, or get gas. In practice, it's almost always that second one, so I think that's why they added the rally thing as a compromise in WC3/SC2.

A lot of games have very close-to-the-action camera. It annoys me too, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. Some games have high-resolution patches that let you fit more of the game on the screen at once, but not all.

I think WC3 is the best RTS, and one of the best games, ever made. So I wouldn't agree with you there, but /vr/ isn't the place for us to hammer that out.

I would have actually recommended C&C (the worker is automated), because base management is so simple and you're really just controlling straight-forward soldiers, but you already said that wasn't working out for you.

>>4070036
>Scouting is hard to automate - where should they go?
Yes, you are right. Maybe setting a line where they have to go next on the map would be better.

>A lot of games have very close-to-the-action camera. It annoys me too, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. Some games have high-resolution patches that let you fit more of the game on the screen at once, but not all.
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about, but didnt know how to put it. Do you know which games have those hihg-resolution patches?

>I think WC3 is the best RTS
For me it was the levels/heroes thing, that put others in huge disadvantage if they do not lvel up. Again, huge emphasis on micro-management, to constantly look for heroes health.

>
I would have actually recommended C&C (the worker is automated), because base management is so simple and you're really just controlling straight-forward soldiers, but you already said that wasn't working out for you.
Yeah, it's a huge improvemnt in terms of automation, but it doesn't feel like it has the same budget and level of a blizzard game. Half of the units are useless, the game balance is very wonky, and it's not that complex.

>>4069993
You should try out the Kohan series. To make it quick: units perform in squads, and these squads will automatically engage in combat if the enemy is near enough. You can't micromanage them. Mages and heroes will automatically use their skills.

>>4070021
shift+right click queues up movements for scouting.
workers not automatically mining makes economy important to keep some focus on. automining and ez blob control made SC2 garbage.

>>4070079
>shift+right click queues up movements for scouting.
Lol, I forgot, thanks.
>workers not automatically mining makes economy important to keep some focus on.
What for? Isn't making new bases enough of a goal in terms of economy, and deciding how many workers to build? Or maybe some kind of new mechanism that game designers ought to discover.

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>>4070070
This is obviously a C&C:RA screenshot, and was what I had in mind when I mentioned the patch. I seem to recall using it and setting it to what I found to be a nice, intermediate resolution. Not sure myself which other series have it, sorry.

I agree that the older C&C games don't feel as polished as they should be, especially alongside Starcraft. It's worth nothing that these older games, like C&C and Warcraft 1, were seriously some of the very first games in the RTS genre - it was totally new and no one was sure what ideas were going to work or how people would be playing them. It wasn't like turn-based RPGs at that point, where dozens had been coming out each year for more than a decade.

Now that I think about it, there's less "going on" in Warcraft II than in Starcraft, so that might work for you. Similar to C&C though, it's just not as gripping moment to moment. It's difficult to make an RTS that is engaging and edge-of-your-seat while not also achieving that by just having too much stuff happening for you to easily manage.

I personally just sort of dropped RTS games for things like Alpha Centauri. Get the same strategy fix, or better, but none of the unit control aggravations. Automation also isn't bad there.

>>4070119
That second paragraph should have the second sentence start with "It's worth noting", sorry.

>>4070119
Thank you for elaborate reply.

I tried Warcraft 2 with a friend. It's even bigger micro, because you ahve to constantly throw bloodlust on the ogres, and hit and run with blizzard/death and decay. After 15 minutes on fastest, you are sweating. Much harder than starcraft,

Yes, the command and conquer seems very nice. But I already maxed strategy out with my brother on OpenRA. There isn't much to strategy, you just use 3-4 units, unfortunately. Otherwise, very good game, better than warcraft 2, deffinetely 1.

I think I will try to broaden my horizon and check out other games, like that Alpha Centuari. Do you know any such games with big user base that I can play with? Not necessarily retro.

>>4070131
Mm, just realized what you're looking for. I actually don't play many multiplayer games, for a variety of reasons. I've been mainly thinking in terms of single-player experiences here, so you're right, WCII is not really a good suggestion.

Alpha Centauri isn't an RTS, just to be clear. I like it a lot, never tried the multiplayer (system itself should be the same though). It's basically a Civilization-style game, 4X. I don't think there are multiplayer servers so much as it's an "enter your friend's IP" type of thing. I mentioned it to say that if you're looking for good strategy you might have to give up on the real-time aspect.

If you want the real-time and some strategy/tactics, there's also MOBA games like DotA 2 (not retro though). Those are definitely fun multiplayer.

Hopefully someone more familiar can suggest something,
>>4070071
this guy might be on to something.

>>4069993
>I do not like the fact that I have to click the same things, to have the same result after 30 minutes of gameplay. Those things could have been automated with proper game design.

total anihilation has some automation

==Aoe2 the conquerors ==
automated villagers some more to an almost perfect, it just misses production AND TECH queued together, and Userpatch allows ordering units from all buildings at the same time ("MQ" button (multiqueue) on game setup), but its still not ideal

==age of mythology==
makes the typical initial 10-15min of aoe2 into 5-10, economic and military display notifications and minimap are sorta unified, and villagers are slightly more automated

>>4069993
guess how i know youre a lets players watcher?
this "actions per minute" is just silly, if you're gonna start getting into a multiplayer community by measuring yourself by professional autism scales, youre setting yourself up for frustration.

i have yet to try sc2, but even on sc1 this APM faggotry has some spread.

naturally any sort of real time game will provide advantages to those who can be faster, think faster, older RTSs vary in level of automation, but other than age (or rare handicaps) it isn't an issue for anyone, your speed will improve without effort, just by playing and having fun, perhaps some genetical and learned traits make a small difference but nothing you should worry too.

ill bet you can have a mutually tactically-challenging match even on SC2, and being a mildly experienced player, just use whatever chat/friend programs the onlin matchmaking software provides and keep in touch with a bunch of people with whom you have had challenging matches. you will gitgud together.

also, learned to concede rematches when you thought it wasnt too hard, if the enemy can nutshell you in chat that he will beat you this time, be sure to play even strogner when doing it.

and ofc, dont pass up opportunities of retrying to beat someone, if you get bummed out at every defeat, you vydia'ing wrong anyways.

Kind of a weird answer, but have you looked at something like mechcommander? Its not really a true rts, but somewhat plays similar. Though theres a reason no one plays those too.

>>4069993
Knights and Merchants.

>>4070781
>typical initial 10-15min of aoe2
many claim its up to 30min on aoe2, but then you discover its those morons who play black forest and open the treelines with siage onagers on imperial age...

aoe2 has a great variety of match modes, get out of your comfornt zone, in a way its a good thing aoe2 has left the spotlight of competivive RTS in this decade, you can find again people top play other modes of aoe than normal resource-rate normal speed, pre-dark age, RM matches.

for instance
>>4069993
try age2tc with resource gathering rate to 2
play greener but open maps, agree on a reverse-newbie ruel of not going castle,
ive heard newbies agreeing of not atacking before castle, but instead we should agree to ATK as soon as you reach feudal, perhaps only allowed to go castle once you have destroyed 1 enemy training building.

aoe2 was made for feudal wars, dark rush for the experienced, and castle and imp are only for finishing an adversary without allowing an overturn by loosing too much power in the greater effort that is attacking buildings in feudal... or you know, in team matches.


>>4070808
is it a RTT? real time tactics
RTT are usually RTS without resources, sometimes without unit training too, and not always at a smaller scale of battle.

>>4069993
homeworld is single resource, full automated gathering, few gathering units and more centralized resource locations well outside of initial bases.
so it tends to be more volatile, and the matches quickly find you on atk and def of resoruce collectors, and final tech researches take some time, but its constant fight all the time.

pirate homeworld1 nonremaster, listem to me NON-remaster, remaster kills some hw1 mechanics.

you'll like the hw1 single player too, but then you're gonn need to get into hw2 (for which remaster is fine) to more easily find matches, but im down to hw1 Nonremaste always.

homeworld 2 complex mod shines on multiplayer matches too

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>>4069993
Pic related was still in the competitive scene in his thirties and was historically one of the lowest APM players, yet still kicked ass.

Think of it in a different way - Starcraft - and most RTSes - is about control and all the crazy amounts of shit that comes with being a commander. Everyone, even Korean pros, will fuck up something at some point, and will be missing some mechanics. Being able to balance all of this shit is an art of its own. It emphasizes the "real time" element of "real time strategy". SC isn't strategy, it's *realtime* *strategy*.

What makes Starcraft satisfying to play is that you just have to pay attention to a ton of different things and respond to them accordingly and with agility. It doesn't even have to be at some super high level where you frantically zip through the screen. Remember priorities and execute them towards your basic plan. The plan, for a hypothetical Protoss, is usually fairly basic - make a timing attack with Zealots when they have an upgrade advantage, or dominate the map with Reaver drops. It's all the shit you have to maintain in the meantime that makes the genre engaging; it's not supposed to make you feel like Carlsen vs Kasparov, but as an able commander that can execute a lot of stuff at the same time.

RTSes might not be for you; if you want strategic games with emphasis on your macrodecisions with all micromanagement cut out, play turn-based games, Master of Orion 1/2 in particular. MoO is the epitome of compact design where all bulk is left to the computer, and you just have to make decisions on how to progress. Choosing tech, designing starships, etc., while shit like "making sure my planets produce" is down to pressing on a slider. Civilization games have some micromanaging in them, but you can also run them on autopilot. Heroes of Might & Magic 3 can be played with little to no micro, although pros play by squeezing out every single movement point they can and saving all their units.

>>4069993
>flaws

GTFO AND CLOSE THE DOOR ON YOUR WAY OUT

>>4069993

Populous the Begining

the metagame is more about pin point accuracy than clicks per minute, although you will have a slight edge with higher apm if you care to do so.

If you just wanna play the campaign you need nothing of the sort and can just have some funtimes.

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>>4070036
>>4070021
>>4070079


anyboby played age of empires II on cooperative mode?
you select the same colour and civ as other(s) and you all start controlling the same town.
then you can divide labour, one goes scouting, someone watches the sheep and scouts with them, someone works the villagers, but when battle begins is that it gets cools, archer firing and retreating like the cpu does with you, 4v4 coop is maddening

>>4070806
>tips fedora the post
No I am not a lets player watcher, heard the term somewhere.

You completely missed the whole point of my post. I don't really care about gid gud with some teenagers. Is it hard to grasp that menial tasks are boring to me? Also that I am 30, and have better things to do in life than sending probes to minerals one by one?

>>4071154
Thanks for all replies folks, this one looks interesting in particular. I think i'll get my bro to play this one and that will be nice. Will also look into some not-RTS games, like suggested by many.

>populous
It was a fun game, but I seriously doubt anybody plays thats.

>some flash games
no thanks, I meant a game with better UI, not dumb

>>4070831
aoe2 is extremely micro heavy faget

>>4070808
>>4070831

Same poster. Yeah, I suppose RTT is probably a better classification of it. Up to 12 units. Rewards flanking and selecting particular parts of a "mech" to take shots at. Progresses through missions by customizing/refitting mechs with loadouts and leveling pilots through missions.

The target selection is important when salvaging mechs you want for parts or the mech itself. And each mission provides more cash reward for the next mission if you go underweight for your total mech/vehicle loadout for each mission.

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Try the Settlers series (2,3,4). They are kind of a mix between RTS and city building games.

>>4072037
>Up to 12 units
>>4072037
>leveling pilots
oh, so its more like shining force / fire emblem, than more like Ground Control (RTT), but in real time instead of turns?

ppl call these squad RPGs by SRPG, but thats usually for turn based games i think,, so i guess RTT +RPG it is

>>4072034
>aoe2 is extremely micro
huh not really in aoe2TC + multiqueue
you just need to send sheep to center, and wildboars are sitll micro,
but with farm auto reseed, autogather after resource building, you just need to issue a new build order once every several minutes after a patch of wood/stone/gold ends

military micro doesnt count, or else youre not playing RTS RTT TBS TBT, but grand strategy instead

I am returning to this genre after 10-15 years of absence. Now I see the flaws of those games, that I didn't see when I was a teenager.

I do not like the fact that I have to click everytime I want to shoot, to have the same result after 30 minutes of gameplay. Those things could have been automated with proper game design. Also, I don't see much of the world on the screen, I have to constantly move cursor around to look. It feels like I see through some kind of magnifying glass. I don't even see what is happening 5 feet to the left of me.

The only way for me to enjoy Deus Ex was to use the assault rifle, because it need to click the least.(less reload, easier aim, less clicks to shoot) Still, it's a huge dissapointment and total destruction of nostalgia.

Could someone recommend some FPS that are different from this given "clicking at the speed of light archetype"? I have tried to return to Quake, or Unreal Tournament, and it feels more or less the same( at least in UT bigger maps/more autofire)

Rise of Legends. One of the best players I knew didn't tend to go much past 60APM.

>>4072305

Correct. You don't customize anything on the pilots though. They have base things that they're good at, that they just get better at as they gain XP. That progression isn't super deep.

--And yeah, it's real time. And I suppose squad RTT or something is a good classification.

>>4072329
Top kek. Well, FPS were always shitty genre for me, aside from half life single player. So this applies, kinda.

OP here. I think I will buy AOE2 HD expansion bundle pack on Steam. It offers better design in terms of UI and automation, while still offering micro and being legit RTS.

Rest of the tittles are either RTT, some obscure tittles some dude plays with his uncle on hamachi, or games with max 8 games in the lobby like brood war or warcraft. Everybody is either playing AOE2 or starcraft 2. Even though AOE have been always one category down than blizzard games in terms of quality, I will go with it just because of how starcraft caters to artificial difficulty and nostalgia values.

>>4072441
Actually, disregard what I just said, AOE also sucks cock of nostalgia.