Did the developers intend for me to use this thing?

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Come on man, these kinda threads are garbage. Less talk about cables and shitting on each other, more talk about games.

>>4018230
Why is it a problem to want to get the best possible experience playing games?

>>4018231
Because the "best possible experience" is entirely subjective and there's no point in creating a thread about this every other day. You will not be able to change people's subjective feelings about this topic, nor will you care much for theirs.

Or do you really need confirmation for your preferences so badly?

>>4018245
There are objective ways to measure image quality.

>>4018247
Sure, but it is also subjective which criteria you prioritize, again making preference entirely subjective.

You know, if you're that willing to gargle some shit, why don't you join this thread >>4015689

You'll be just fine there.

>>4018256
What is there to prioritise when discussing image quality besides image quality?

>>4018268
Authenticity, because not everybody in the 80s and 90s had a PVM with component input. Also, some argue developers had consumer TVs in mind when designing graphics, using dithering patterns which took advantage of blurry composite input.

Look, if you really want to talk about cables that hard, just go here >>4015689
It covers all those topics and more.

We really don't need another thread about this nonsense.

>>4018278
PVMs don't use component, they display RGB. If the consoles were sold with RGB cables then surely the developers intended for us to use it. The only good console that can't output RGB is the Nes. Dithering may look better in composite, but the effect works with RGB just fine. Most TVs from the 80s and all TVs from the 90s support RGB through SCART.

>>4018293
Yeah, sure, whatever. From 10 feet away I can't tell the difference anyway. I don't care. I merely wanted to point out how useless your thread was.

Again, the people here will be happy to shit on your opinions >>4015689

I'm out, have fun with your thread about cables.

>>4018293
>PVMs don't use component, they display RGB
Pretty sure you meant composite rather than YPbPr Component but you're still 100% wrong in either case.

Almost all PVMs will handle RGBs, YPbPr or composite just fine. Some support S-Video into the bargain.

>>4018360
>Almost all PVMs will handle RGBs, YPbPr or composite just fine. Some support S-Video into the bargain.


I'm just going to amend this, PVMs with YPbPr only started appearing in the mid 90s. S-video is much more common across the board.

>>4018360
No, I meant component.

>>4018370
>mid 90s
>almost all
So I was correct then. Older PVMs than that are vanishingly rare these days. Hardly surprising considering their duty and upgrade cycles, most would have been disposed of long before people started using them for retro gaming.

>>4018398
I tend to use component when hooking my PS2 and Wii up to my BVM.

>>4018414
Why have a BVM if you're not going to use the best possible signal? PS2 and Wii both support RGB.

>>4018220
PlayStation and older
>s-video and composite

Dreamcast and newer
>s-video and component

>>4018418
I rarely use those consoles tbqh and it's far simpler to hook them up via 3 RCAs>BNCs vs struggling with SCART breakouts.

The miniscule gains in PQ don't outweigh the hassle. If my BVMs had native SCART inputs I would likely think differently but they don't so neither do I.

>>4018425
What is the reason for using lower quality signals?

>>4018293
>PVMs don't use component

Then how do you explain my two PVMs that use component?

>>4018454
What's the point of them using component? Why does component even exist?

>>4018460
Less redundant luminance and chrominance information is carried thereby freeing up bandwidth for higher resolutions.

It serves little to no purpose for SD signals though.

>>4018460

It looks better than s-video and one of them can do 480p and 720p through component.

>>4018220
I prefer to play retro vidya on my 50" lcd using rf cables.

>>4018443
That is assuming you are playing on a CRT; which is the optimal way to display video games in general due to very low to zero input delay, you will need the best output supported by your console natively. If you're modding your retro consoles for digital signals to play on big LCD/LED displays then you obviously look at this superficially than technically.

>>4018503
But all good consoles support RGB over SCART. You'd be unlucky to find a CRT that doesn't support it, either. Composite is shit, s-video is decent but not great.

>>4018476
RGB looks better than component and, as >>4018474 said, it is pointless for SD displays.

>>4018519
right, barring PS1 that supports SCART for PAL only and Dreamcast supporting VGA.

>>4018530
>PS1...supports SCART for PAL only
Wherever did you get that idea? It's Nintendo who gimp their video outputs depending on region, not Sony.

>>4018548
wasn't aware that PS1 SCART had NTSC support, just PS2.

>>4018548
Does the US SNES not support RGB?

>>4018220
No. They had no idea teenagers would even give a fuck about the systems decades after most people threw them out.

>>4018562
But the consoles still supported RGB when they were released.

>>4018557
SNES does but GC/Wii has some funky shit going on with regional output options.

>>4018425
Dreamcast doesn't have component and the s-video cables have a checkered pattern. VGA and composite are the only options

Idk im an amerifat so my tv doesnt support anything besidew composite and rf

>>4018962
Yet you call us third worlders.

>>4018220
I mean there's a hole in the back of the mega drive for that, so I guess

>>4018962
My CRT televisions supported S-Video. You just have/had shit TVs.

>>4018970
S-Video is still only mid-range in the pecking order

>>4018231
That's twisting what the OP said. This is a shitty bait thread, no one cares just play however you want. If that's using rgb in or rf in no one cares as long as you like the way it looks

>>4018220
That's a shit third party cable, so no.

>>4018524
This is wholly subjective, they are virtually the same minus the color-space differences.

>>4018418

PS2 and Wii look best through component.

>>4018982
t. blind

>>4018991
You're full of shit.

>>4018542

Alright, play your 5/6 speed games with squished aspect ratio and downpitched music instead

>>4018310
You did well. These threads are inevitably going to be posted forever so long as people respond to this garbage, unfortunately.

>>4018954
>checkered pattern
what? I use S-Video for Dreamcast and don't know what you are talking about.

>>4018220
I used RF cable on a japanese modded PSX with a PAL/SECAM TV.

even if they didn't it still looks better in rgb and an s-video mod looks good too. If you use a scaler or something for an lcd, rgb is the best

who the fuck cares?

>>4018569
But OP wasn't born until many years later. The developers had no intentions that underage many years in the future would even use their toys.

>>4021521
I was born and used RGB in the 80s and 90s.

>>4021602
Then you're not OP.

>>4018360
Anons.

>>4021602
I didn't . Black swan theory

>>4021664
Anons to you too, namefag

>>4021642
But I am.

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>>4018220
As the pic states. See official ones (my Playstation one is not official) ...

I always thought the dithering was sort of like a hatching/cross-hatching/stippling style of shading. I didn't have a TV, so I relied on VGA monitors to be my display for my computer and consoles (through XRGB2).

The only time I know of where a developer states they intended the dithering to be blurred was that Lion King video. It is strange since that game was also on DOS, but did not take advantage of the additional colors beyond what the consoles can render yet continued to use the dithering even though computers often displayed on sharp VGA monitors.

Anyway, just play the games in whatever way makes you happy.

>>4021693
Then you're either lying about being OP or lying about being born in the 80's and 90's and using RGB when you were born both times.

>>4018220
Yes, it's not Japan and Europes fault America was too stupid and lazy to support superior RGB picture quality.

>>4021806
>As the pic states.
Those are optional, expensive premium cables.

The consoles themselves shipped with composite or RF. That was the standard.

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>>4021806
>The only time I know of where a developer states they intended the dithering to be blurred was that Lion King video.

CGA games nearly all took advantage of composite dithering. Sonic 1 and Streets of Rage 2 took advantage of it specifically. C64 had a dozen different software techniques for doing multicolour hi-res, many which relied on the RF or Composite signal blurring the video. But even normal games tended to use combinations of colours that ended up better looking due to composite blurring.

>>4018989
I have both component and SCART Cables for my PS2, the color separation is nicer with SCART, the advantage of component is widescreen support for games that have that option like Okami, Gran Turismo 4 or Final Fantasy 12.

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>>4021974
compare for example this C64 artwork...

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>>4021979
... to how it looks after the console outputs it. Note that the C64 did not do RGB, it had RF, composite, and Y/C output (this latter used for monitors, but it is pretty much the same as S-Video that came later).

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>>4021974
I'm not disagreeing on dithering being used quite often and composite aiding it, however;

That's an arcade game, solely intended for an (RGB) arcade monitor, and the filter on the right is meant to mimic said arcade monitor, not a composite signal. The details on the right are just too clear and the text too sharp for that to be composite.

Rather strange color temp as well, but that's a different matter.

>>4021975
Anamorphic widescreen should be available, regardless of connection type, unless it's your specific display that's preventing it.

If it's something with native support for SCART, it may require different voltage on pin 8 for switching to 16:9 mode.

>>4021945
Not lying about either.

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>>4021959
Yes, but I did buy the RGB cables, JP21 spec sadly is the unpopular choice, even back then. It was an article in EGM which convinced me to explore this option (the pic is from Mega Play, which was their side magazine taking only the Genesis coverage only from EGM proper, but the article is still the same with similar screenshots).


>>4021979
>>4021986
I sadly did not experience the Commodore 64. I do enjoy seeing/hearing the demoscene works; I always explored the additional executable files from my bootlegs to find nice animations and displays of tech manipulation in those hacking group "intros" ... great stuff. Again, I was (and still am) on a VGA monitor and would see the latter, but get they were trying to go for the former. I suppose my old mind would mentally blur the image and imagine the curvature and shading.


>>4022191
Personal preference of mine just to prefer sharp pixels. Scanlines are not my thing when playing (or at least very thin and fine such that they are not noticed), but that may be because I cannot get/afford a BVM/PVM. I think those filters intended to look like arcade monitors are kind of silly. If authenticity is the goal, why not add a burnt in Pac-Man screenshot, maybe some cigarette burns, and magnetize the sides and warp the colors for the unshielded speakers nearby in a few American styled wood arcade cabinets. Sillyness aside, I do believe you are on point with your post.

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>>4021974
I will admit, CGA were before the time my cousins and I owned a computer so I am not personally familiar with computer composite output.

I actually remember playing the arcade Contra games in the arcade and it looks like the one on the left. I do live near quite a few arcades and I think at least 1 of them still has it and I am pretty sure it is on a RGB monitor (in tate mode) appearing the more pale colors and dithering for shading. I just cannot afford my arcade's $15 entrance fee (it's all free play) or beer/food charges for the many barcades to take an actual picture.

Sonic 1 and Streets 2 I did play on RF and RGB in their day, and I still see the dithering as a shading technique like hatching/cross-hatching/stippling. PC games, namely ones from Japan used their dithering techniques to keep their low color counts, yet attain an impressive look while having each pixel identifiable on a sharp monitor.

>>4022191
do you think rgb monitors for early 90s, late 80s game were as clear as pvms though. I think they were not as good.

>>4022434
RGB Commodore monitors are probably the next best thing to a PVM and outshine the lower end models.

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Sorry for butchering my last two posts. Rearranged them just to fit a text limit. Anyway, I thought shading techniques like hatching/cross-hatching/stippling helped out with hardware only capable of displaying low color counts gave the games a style, as the artists can choose not to employ the technique too. A lot of Japanese PC games I remember opted for a higher resolution and lower color depth and achieved amazing results.

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>>4022420
I want to say it's less about specifically being arcade monitors and just the look of playing on a CRT in general.

>>4022434
No, they weren't, but that's also why the example I posted can't quite match that of the shader; The shader is softer than even a ~500TVL Ikegami monitor, but you can't tell me that the resemblance isn't extremely obvious.

And an example of what a similar vintage game on genuine hardware would look like, mask and sharpness wise.

>>4022335
>not lying about being born twice
Hallelujah, underage bullshitter.

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if you wanna do stuff with retro consoles & stream them, get one of these
I recently got mine for $40 off eBay & trust me, worth way more

BNC cable switcher capable of multiple input & output with programmable combos. capable of accepting RGB video via RGB-to-BNC adapter, just need input adapters for all YPbPr cables, & will have outputs going to different parts of a scaler or straight to a tv/monitor/stereo

trust me, get one of these NOW while they're still <$100

>>4024126
>measurable lag even without using the scaler
>massive lag with scaler
no thanks

>>4024548
>scaler
What scaler? Crosspoints don't do any sort of scaling at all, and are just glorified large scale distribution amps and sync processors.

>>4024548
the lag is why you get the scaler, dumbass
it's so your TV doesn't have to scale it up & fuck up the picture

the crosspoint is just a matrix switch, however, & a fucking good one

>>4024552
scaler I got is a Framemeister (got it b4 the end of production)
for others looking for a scaler, GREAT one is the OSSC with basically no lag

>>4018542
>using smileys
Are you 12? Fag.

>>4018418
The difference between rgb and component is marginal at best.

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I just checked my old post >>4022439 on a tablet (digital display) and the image looks bad, but it looks great on my CRT VGA monitor. I guess the image does not prove my point, since the individual pixels are discernible on the CRT monitor, but on the tablet, the individual pixels don't seem uniform ruining the effect. Sorry.


>>4022452
Given my mistake with the gif above. I think what mattered most to me of the CRT "look" is that perceived pixel uniformity. Since digital displays cannot have "half pixels" there's always this odd look, like how I see the CPS1/2/3 games in 4:3 with well proportioned characters but a CRT squeezes the wide render down to make thin rectangular pixels, or slightly stretch a NES/SNES to wide rectangular pixels, but they are even throughout the whole picture, instead of a '4 square then a doubled square pixel.' I hope 4k does fix these issues.


>>4024126
I wish I had known about BVMs and PVMs back in the day, now they are all out of my reach in price. My current computer screen has BNC5 inputs but was designed for 31hz and not 15hz. I went the JP21 route for my consoles, which was the standard then and sadly now everyone went Euro SCART so switch boxes for JP21 are not easily available. It'll cost a lot for me to replace all my cables to BNC styled cables for the Extron starting all over again, which I cannot afford. Just $40 is so nice for a switch box, especially with that many inputs and outputs, starting over is just not worth it for me because of all the costs.

>>4025812
you could probably get the Extron & hook up JP21
while a JP21-to-BNC connector is rare, you could probably get away with a JP21-to-SCART connector, then jut convert that to BNC

or you could just stick with something like the Framemeister & hook it up through the JP21 RGB port

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Someone in /vr/ must know this. If I plug my csync scart into a splitter which then goes into a tv, will the csync signal still carry to the tv? Would it look any different?

Aside from that, can you split an analog source to two TVs and will it look okay?

I wanna know before I bother buying garbage.

>>4026005
I've seen similar with multi-output SCART switches
it's not impossible to do & do it well, but it probably depends on the switcher

>>4018968
that's not what it's meant for retard

>>4026005
>Aside from that, can you split an analog source to two TVs and will it look okay?

I use an old Key Digital Distribution Amplifier I got off of eBay for like $12.00. It works great for Composite, S-Video, and Component. Model number is KD-CDA3.

>>4025812
>I have too much money to spend: The official post.

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>>4027691
The opposite really. I had to save up for about a year to get the framemeister. Also was fortunate enough when all those custom made SCART switch boxes became available, people were getting rid of their Selecty21s for cheap. Working for slightly over minimum wage is hard. The rules are set in opposition of one another, I want a BVM to enhance the joy I get from playing my games, but I cannot afford the games I enjoy. It's a cruel world.

>not making your own bnc breakout cables for your rgb monitor

I'll never allow euroshit in my house

>>4028413
>kids on a gook toon image board can into wires
lel

>>4018386
Depends on where you're looking, major hospitals would be rid of them but for instance my local hospital has at least 5 80s era PVMs in its warehouse that they didn't replace until 2005.

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>>4018220
You know damn well what the developers intended

>>4028194
>$5,000 in rewards points
I think I spotted the reason you're poor.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ps2-rgb/172700968781
is that legit?

>>4031097
nevermind I already ordered it

>>4018976
how can you tell it's shitty?

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>>4030769
Actually, it is just $50USD in rewards points, that I saved up for months. I think that demonstrates my lack of money to begin with. The reason for my poverty is my intelligence deficiency.

>>4018460
Component, RGB, and SCART all give identical video quality.

inb4 m-muh differences you can only see by studying the signal with an oscilloscope

>>4034126
SCART is a connector dingus. One of the signals it carries is composite which is definitely not identical in quality the component or RGB.

The problem with the RGB meme is that it's as if nobody really cares about the games anymore. You gotta spend thousands of dollars to play 240p games on a 20 inch piece of shit crt thats 30 years old or else. It's gotten so self masturbatory lately. It's easy to ignore but man, it's just getting more and more annoying.

>>4034416
No. That's the problem with younglings and memes in general. Adults who know what they're doing do things differently. They care about the game and want it to not look like shit. So they spend thousands of pennies to play on a comfortable size CRT that's maybe 15-20 years old.

>>4034416
If it were that easy to ignore you wouldn't be shitposting in a display technology thread.

Begone and take your sweeping statements with you.

>>4034416
>thousands of dollars
lel imagine being American and not being able to hook it up to any tv in your vicinity.

>>4034739
Apparently he's the only underage living in a retirement community where the only CRTs are RF only console TVs from the 70's. The rest of us just just plug into component with a cheap and easy to find adapter.

>Device that most people never used outside of Europe until a few years ago when RGB became a meme
No, lots of retro console games were designed in a time when most people had RF, and composite was pretty much the high quality option for most people, as most common cheap TVs that people had only did RF at the time, maybe composite if you're lucky. S-video was pretty much a legend, and you weren't using that, unless you were some rich guy, or if it's the early 2000s and the TVs with it are cheaper.

>>4036062
What about Japanese JP-21 cables?
Many consoles had official RGB cables released for them.
So it's not "only in Europe"

>>4036092
Still was a pretty niche market though, and to my knowledge, not every TV had those inputs.

>>4021806
wouldn't the nintendo one be jp21

>>4034386
It also carries RGB, but hes a dingus alright

>>4036095
Fuck, i always know americlaps TV are shit but this.. no standard RGB, really??!!

>>4036671
Not for Americkeks

>>4036671
Indeed.

I suspect this would be the origin of the "developers' intentions" meme we hear so much of...

>>4036671
we didn't have true RGB until we had dsub-15 monitors. by then, we started going into YPbPr connectors

>>4036723
There's like a decade gap between those two anon.

What were americlaps doing in the meantime?

>>4036728
might be a decade gap between them, but the most mainstream console to take advantage of it was in the same generation as the 3 that first used YPbPr
too bad too. it's better than SCART

>>4036740
Yeah but in the meantime, europe had RGB on TVs from 1977 right up to a couple of years ago.

I myself have an RGB-equipped Profeel CRT from 1980 and an RGB-equipped Samsung LCD from 2015.

>>4036749
good for you, m80
I don't care. I was just answering a question

>>4036752
>I don't care
Maybe not.

The fact remains that there was a massive yawning gap where North America had no decent input standard whatsoever.

>>4036740
>it's better than SCART
How so?

>>4036740
>it's better than SCART
Stop this madness 'murrica, please
It's okay to not be the number one everytime

>>4036765
how about the fact that it's actually possible to get progressive scans off VGA while SCART only ever does interlaced shit

>>4036781
I can shoot 1080p through a SCART just fine.

It was never (to my knowledge) officially supported but it's certainly possible.

>>4036789
congrats, you put a newer YPbPr signal through an older cable. well done
older RGB signals, however, are still better with VGA than SCART b/c you can actually get a progressive image

>>4036882
Congrats, you got my methodology completely arse-about-face.

What I actually did was pass an RGBs signal at 1920x1080 progressive through a SCART connector and it handled it just fine. No YPbPrs were harmed during this experiment and full 4:4:4 colour subsampling was preserved throughout the signal chain from source to display.

>>4036925
Not the guy you replied to but how? Is this on a CRT? Generaly curious

>>4037471
It was just for shits and giggles really and to see if SCART could actually pass that kind of bandwidth without issues as a proof of concept but basically this:

1920x1080p 60hz from Nvidia Quadro 880m via a dsub15 to SCART cable to input on generic mechanical SCART switch. SCART to dsub15 from output of said switch into IBM P260 PC CRT. Signal obviously displayed at original resolution of 1920x1080p 60hz.

Needless to say it's not exactly practical or needed from an everyday standpoint but science gets what science demands. Maybe next I should try 2048x1536 which is the highest my source and display can handle.

>>4036062

I was channel 4 masterrace because the signal was cleaner.

>>4018278
>>4018293
How many times a day you guys have the same discussion a day? You keep templates of your responses?

>>4037542
Probably.

Shame at least half the information trotted out in these threads is downright wrong. That's why nothing gets settled once and for all, it's mostly idiots trolling other idiots and the guys with real knowhow tend to get shouted down.

>>4037512
So in this case Scart is being used inbetween? I thought you actually put the scart directly on a tv instead of a switch

>>4037676
Well no, as I stated earlier HD was never part of SCART's specification. As such it was never implemented either on sources nor displays so I had to pass the signal through SCART between other types of connection which did and still do support HD with their official standard frameworks.

My point was that it COULD have been implemented and my little experiment proved this.

>>4036728
There's no gap between dsub-15 and component there's an overlap. But they were mostly used for different types of displays. With maybe a few exceptions consumer TVs in the US didn't have a decent video input available until component.

>>4037693
Well obviously I was limiting things to consumer gear.

Dsub15 came around in 1987 and very few if any NA consumer sets used it, so no RGB. Then YPbPr starts showing up in the mid 90s and this time DOES get into consumer gear, finally providing a viable equivalent. That to me suggests that NA had a decade where they could have had RGB in consumer gear but chose not to.

Let's also not forget that RGB SCART was introduced in europe in 1977 and widely used throughout this period right up to the point that HDMI took over.

>>4037692
>RGB SYNC
What did he mean by this?

>>4018220
megadrive scart cable.
no 3.5mm jack to gain stereo audio from the front ...

kill yourself faggot

>>4037737
>Not using an external sound system for extra bleepy farty goodness

I think you're going to have to kill yourself first, anon

>>4022420
JP21 was used extensively in Japan.

>>4037704
The US could have had RGB any time they wanted it after color screens were invented. They just chose not to. DB15 was used for VGA but EGA and CGA are both RGB and used DB9 before that.

>>4037737
>3.5mm jack to gain nothing from single gameboy speaker in TV

>>4037579
To be fair, a lot of it is also fools (such as myself) who think they know something with 100% accuracy, but who actually do not. I really try to curb my opinions when posting about anything I don't have hands on experience with anymore, and wish others would do the same...

>>4036671
Really. But we get 60hz so it becomes a gameplay > visuals thing.

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>>4018220
Did the developers intend me to shitpost on a forum for their games?

>>4038949
Some developers? Absolutely.

>>4036781
Are you retarded? SCART does progressive fine.
Where did you even get the idea? Topkek

>>4038951
I doubt they knew what imageboards where back in '85

>>4036781
>>4036789
I have feed 1080p (homebrew program) from my PS2 to my flatscreen over the standard RGB+Sync / SCART cable. So it was certainly possible two decades ago too.
Also used a PS3 with the same cable for RGB (Not Y'PbPr) and it also did 720p and 1080p fine.

You guys seem to be confused.

>>4038954
They knew what forums were, especially in the 90s.

>>4038951
european developers, sure, they took thing pretty chill, but I don't think japanese developers would have liked it that their games got made fun off and shat on by "trolls" on a knitting forum

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>>4038960
You had 1080p homebrew, on PS2 no less, two decades ago?

Whoah dude, you surely must be a gaming GOD whose dad worked for Sony's skunkworks.

>>4038960
>You guys seem to be confused
That's some summer tier projection there sport

>>4018220
Yes.

>>4018220
Well, your console doesn't shit out an RGB signal by pure coincidence, you know?

>>4018220
the devs intended you to play any games on the dev console, which is what they developed for not the actual console, anyone who says otherwise is a fag

>>4042216
>dev console

Most of these systems didn't have "dev consoles". They had normal consoles with a dev cart plugged into it so they could debug. The dev carts were nothing particularly fancy and were often made in-house, although there were companies that specialized in producing dev carts.

>>4042549
They had dev systems, it's just that most of the time the developers were too cheap to get them or the manufacturers were too much of dicks to provide them, so they usually had to find a way to make them themselves by hacking together some weird interface between computer and a cartridge port, basically wiring in a rom to the console, at least that's how the SNES port of Another World was developed since Nintendo were kinda xenophobic jerks at the time.