Dragon Quest vs Final Fantasy

>>3975128
I think they're both terribly overrated.

>>3975136
What's your favorite rpg series?

>>3975137
Tengai Makyou.

>>3975145
lol I don't know what that is

>>3975153
EOP pls.

>>3975145
>highlight
>copy
>paste and search
looks interesting anon...
Are most of then in english?
and how long are they? We talking 20-40 hour, 40-60 hour or 60+ ?

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>>3975128
I don't really prefer one series, but FF5 is the most dear to me.

>>3975145
I'm dying for a translator to pull their head out of their ass and make this series justice.

>>3975708
You can't do that series justice in another language, it's way too Japanese.

>>3975716

Translating the untranslatable is what being a good translator is all about.

Get good or go the fuck home.

>>3975708

Good luck, the English community is fucking worthless.

>>3975168
>>3975164
>>3975153
>>3975145
>>3975137

This is an example of how /vr/ is *not* supposed to be.

When someone asks a question, particularly in good faith and on a reasonably obscure topic, do your best to try to accommodate them.

If there is no discussion, there is no reason to be here.

I can't really make a fair judgement, because I've played way, way more FF than DQ. But I've never been able to get into DQ because it's just so unvaried and bland. Both are basically guilty of this up through each's fifth or sixth entry, mainly because of the limitations of NES/SNES.

But even beyond DQ6, they kept the story formula simple. Way too simple for me. I can't get excited about Nameless Hero vs. "Demon Lord." Not that Sephiroth or whomever was actually cool or anything, but at least he had a face.

I dunno. I don't have any true problem with DQ. I wish I could get into it more.

>>3975739
DQ is less about an epic overarching plot than the feeling of going on a classic fairy tale adventure, going from town to town helping villagers sort out their issues, setting out on your own to explore remote corners of the world map, etc. It follows more of a light hearted "episode of the day" format.

Part of its "fairy tale" charm is also enhanced by the way it rewards curiosity rather than rewarding the player for reading a FAQ or being lucky with item drops. A lot of the game's goods are hidden away in secret rooms you can all find on your own without external help granted you're curious enough to seek them out.

>>3975136

This. Phantasy Star IV + Chrono Trigger are my favorites.

>>3975128
DQ has a stronger indentity than FF, FF became a brand name fueled series that ripped off other games and put its name on them to sell and further empower its brand name, not like DQ didn't do the same, but FF crossed too many lines.
I don't like either of them, but since a decade or so, I've been progressively leaning on DQ being the better series, it's as vanilla as it gets, but at least it's a series that knows itself and the people who like it.
>>3975145
>Says FF and DQ are overrated
>Favorite series is DQ for ultraweebs
The only game that is really underrated in that series isn't /vr/ material, unless you really like 90's anime and silly wordplays there's no reason to play Tengai Makyou, it's more of a cultural curiosity than a worthwhile RPG series, it's more or less on the same level of DQ and FF in terms of actual gameplay.
>>3975739
DQ is more about the travel than the destination, the main quest is just an excuse for you to go on an adventure, FF is more plot focused and "epic".
I see what you mean though, I have the same problem with DQ, I really like the format, but everything's so bland it's really hard to play through when you don't like the characters, gameplay or even art direction.

>>3976194
>The only game that is really underrated in that series isn't /vr/ material
You had better not be talking about Oriental Blue.

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>>3975128
I have to say DQ. Every DQ I played other then VIII hooked me from start to finish. For FF I have tried IV, VI, and VII, and I couldn't find myself completing any of them. With FF in my experience I find they start strong but kind of dwindle down as it keeps going. VI for example, has the world of ruin. The WoR is pretty cool as a concept but I found it pretty tedious and eventually lost interest.

DQ are just better crafted games I feel. Their simplicity and less serious tone allows for more creativity and focus on aspects other then just story and gameplay, which normally seem to be the focus of FF games.

>>3976197
What else nigga

I like FF more. My problem with DQ is they found a formula and they basically has sticked to it forever just to not piss off their fans. I fucking hate that. You might say that theres bad FF games, but at least they try new things and they add REAL new mechanics and themes to their games rather than just putting a coat of paint. V and VIII are great games, but they would barely make it in a top 10, let alone a top 5 of best JRPG ever.

>>3976213
>more creativity and focus on aspects other then the only ones that matter

>>3976194
>He doesn't like 90s anime and silly wordplays

>>3976216
My left testicle has more charm than OB. fuck outta here

>>3976223
Well in my experience I have found npc dialouge, dungeon design, world design, and balance to be typically better in DQ then the FF titles I played.

Name the objectively best RPG in existence.

>>3976268

Chrono Trigger

>inb4 is too easy

All JRPG are easy. The only difference is the length

>>3976227
>>He doesn't like 90s anime and silly wordplays
They can only do so much when the gameplay is absolutely unimpressive, if not offensively boring.
>My left testicle has more charm than OB.
OB is the only game that is actually fun to play, I welcome the tame writing if it means I can actually have fun PLAYING it.
It's basically Zero without the obnoxious shounen anime bullshit and way better gameplay and exploration.
>>3976298
>All JRPG are easy.
shut up triggernigger.

>>3976298
>All JRPG are easy
Go play Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne.

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>>3976318
>He plays JRPGs for the gameplay

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>>3976352
Yes, is there any other reason to play videogames?

>>3976213
>focus on other aspects then just story and gameplay

You mean 90% of what a JRPG is? haha are you high or just purposefully bullshitting?

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>>3976356
I like interactive stories with good music and pixel art.

>>3976352
yeah, playing games for gameplay, how ridiculous
you sure showed him, /v/irgin

>>3976365
Turn-based RPGs are not the genre you go to if you want mind-blowing gameplay.

>>3976362
Except there are more thing to consider then story for jrpgs.

Battle system, balance, dugeon design, overworld design, puzzles, character and monster design, and music are all huge aspects of jrpgs. All I meant is since DQ games have simple plots a lot of the smaller details get more focus.

>>3976364
Then go read a VN.

>>3976374
>Battle system, balance, dugeon design, overworld design, puzzles
These all fall under gameplay you fucking shitter.

>>3976378
I like those a lot also.

>>3976372
you'd know how wrong you are if you actually played something other than glorified visual novels

>>3976391
SMT is overrated.

>>3976365
There's literally no such thing as an RPG with engaging gameplay. They're slightly more involved visual novels.

If you want to play games for the gameplay, then by all means, but in that case RPGs are not the genre to play.

>>3976397
>There's literally no such thing as an RPG with engaging gameplay.
What a miserable existence.

>>3976402
It's true though. And I've played the memeshit that /vr/ recommends, like SMT, Metal Max, and SaGa, and they suffer from the same tedious gameplay as Final Fantasy but without a story to make it worth pushing through.

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>>3976403
>and they suffer from the same tedious gameplay as Final Fantasy

>>3976414
It's true though. SaGa may have a different levelling system, but the end result is still the same in that you wander around mashing A repeatedly. The open-endedness just means you're doing the same shit as in FF but without a decent reason behind it.

>>3976421
>but the end result is still the same in that you wander around mashing A repeatedly
Prove it.

>>3976403
Maybe jrpgs aren't your thing.

Metal max is great though, customizing my tanks and hunting criminals was really fun. Maybe try some other series, like suikoden or breath of fire.

>>3976402

is true that not all JRPG have the same exact gameplay, but its true that games that relay on turn based actions in the long run start to feel the same and offer min to no challenge to the player. In other words, the gameplay is there, but its more a chore than an actual piece of the game. I mean, how many games you couldnt beat by just using attack + heal?

>>3976418
there's no argument to be made
you're convinced no RPG has engaging gameplay and any game or reason I may post will be dismissed with "THAT'S NOT ENGAGING LMAO xD"

>>3976429
I like JRPGs, I just think the world building and presentation is the only reason to play them because none of them have gameplay mechanics going for them.

>>3976432
>I mean, how many games you couldnt beat by just using attack + heal?
A lot actually.
>>3976436
>because none of them have gameplay mechanics going for them.
Really?

This thread keeps getting better and better.

>>3976424
Well, what else are you going to do? The combat options in Romancing SaGa only allow you to attack or cast spells, just like in Final Fantasy. There's no deep gameplay to be found there.

>>3976454
>The combat options in Romancing SaGa only allow you to attack or cast spells
Really now?
This is getting depressing.

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>>3976364
why not play interactive stories with good music, pixel art and gameplay?

>>3976461
Because the RPGs with "good gameplay" almost always fail in everything else.

At least SMT has some bitchin' tunes. Only reason I finished that cumbersome slogfest.

>>3976459
Oh, sorry, I forgot about having to waste turns moving your characters around because an enemy walked into you from the side and fucked your party arrangement up.

How about you try to give a real response?

>>3976459
What's depressing is your condescending drivel masquerading as a proper response.

>>3976470
>How about you try to give a real response?
Because you deserve none.
But let me humour you.

>What are techs
>What are characters' innate growth tables
>What is sequence breaking
>What are formation effects
>What are quest routes
>What are tech properties
>What are enemy species
>What are weapon tech trees
>What are enemy movement patterns

And so on, and this is just for the first Romancing SaGa when each game in the series adds a shitload of mechanics like combos, races that all work differently, evasions, hybrid techs, map properties, Battle Rank, Event Rank and so on.
You didn't play the game, you don't know what you're talking about, you're just shitposting to get a reaction out of people because that's all you're worth for.
Now fuck off.
>>3976472
Shut up, you don't know what people are talking about, you add nothing of value to the discussion.

>>3976487
Prove it.

>>3976490
Techs are basically just spells but more inconvenient since you lose them when you buy new gear.

Growth tables have been a thing since the first Dragon Quest game and are pretty much standard in every JRPG ever.

Sequence breaking can be really good, but in SaGa's case it just makes the game feel even less coherent and plotless.

Most of the other things you've listed are just a smokescreen to distract you from the fact that you're mostly just grinding and mashing A.

>>3976507
>Techs are basically just spells but more inconvenient since you lose them when you buy new gear.
No they aren't, Techs are way better than spells since they hit harder at any point in the game, spells aren't good offensive tools, they're best used for utilities.
Buying new gears is fundamental because as I said before
>Tech trees
Which if you did actually play the game you'd know you could have really strong or useful techs in statistically weak weapons and viceversa.
>Growth tables have been a thing since the first Dragon Quest game and are pretty much standard in every JRPG ever.
And yet again you confirm you haven't played the game, nice.
>but in SaGa's case it just makes the game feel even less coherent and plotless.
For what reason? All quests are self contained so you can do them in any order you want in the first Romancing SaGa, because there's no real main quest.
In Romancing SaGa 2 quests change dinamically depending on your decisions, and so do bosses, all games have self contained quests and a set of main quests that can or cannot be completed in any order, some games even have linear storytelling so your claim of the plot being "less coherent" goes completely out of the window, but again, you haven't played the games so it's not like you had any point to begin with.
And it's also really interesting how you completely go over the actual gameplay aspect of sequence breaking in order to get good loot earlier, which saves not only time but money too.
>grinding
>In a SaGa game
At least read those Gamefaqs documents a bit further before embarassing yourself, imbecile.

And all of this is only for one game, in a series with over ten entries, all of which play differently.
But it's all just a smokescreen right?

>>3976379
This.

>>3976525
> All quests are self contained so you can do them in any order you want in the first Romancing SaGa, because there's no real main quest.

This is exactly what I mean by incoherent and plotless. You're just going around doing random shit for random people. It doesn't feel like there's any overarching meaning to any of it. And yes, I've only played Romancing SaGa 1, but only an idiot or somebody with far too much time on their hands would waste their time playing through an entire series if they thought the first game in the series that they played was shit.

>>3976553
>This is exactly what I mean by incoherent and plotless.
Really?
That's funny because you didn't even see how much I lied this time.
There's both a main overarching quest in the game and each character has a short quest of their own.
>It doesn't feel like there's any overarching meaning to any of it.
Then I guess the invasion of Isthmus and death of Albert's parents, the dark cult in Melvir, the outbreaks of monsters in Valhalland and the Knight's Dominion among other many subquests and plot points like fucking fatestone quests aren't EXPLICITLY tied to Saruin's awakening, which is the main fucking plot point and quest of the game, and let's not even talk about all the side stories like Scherah's which also connect to the main quest AND the lore.
For someone who cares about story you sure suck if you can't even connects dots in a videogame for children.
> I've only played Romancing SaGa 1
No, you didn't, the fact that you're not only lying through your teeth but fell for my bait completely only points out to that.
>only an idiot or somebody with far too much time on their hands would waste their time playing through an entire series if they thought the first game in the series that they played was shit.
Right, it's not like all games are different, no sir, and it's actually the fourth game in the series, but you didn't even bother to google that.

Now get out of /vr/.

>>3976570
It's not that there's *NO* story, it's that it's barebones and shit and you spend most of the game wandering around anyway.

And when did I ever imply that it was the first game in the series? I said it was the first game that I played. You should learn to read.

>>3976578
>It's not that there's *NO* story, it's that it's barebones
How is it barebones?

Every location has its own story, place in the lore, characters to recruit and different NPCs which all tell parts of lore or contextualize elements of gameplay like magic or dungeons.
All the quests actually tell you how all the various tribes in Mardias live since every quest is tied to another in terms of lore, moreover, each main character has a different background and their own personal quest and starting cast and there's even personal variations in dialogues during quests which gives you extra insight in what's going on depending on the characters and quests, Hawke for instance knows who's behind the geckling slavery quest whereas nobody else does, the plot and worldbuilding is far from being barebones, Albert is the only character that witnesses the siege of Isthmus, Claudia has a certain secret regarding the royal family of Melvir and she's the only character that can talk to Eule, Hawke is the only one who has insight into what the Coral Sea pirates do and who they are and so on for every protagonist.
But alas, that would of course require you to play the game, which you didn't.

You're the worst kind of mouthbreather, that kind of guy who spouts nonsense and misinformation behind anonymity because there's no repercussion for his idiocy, you're the cancer that's killing this board.

>>3976213
>Every DQ I played other then VIII hooked me from start to finish.

As a fan of DQ1 through 7 i'd like to hear what issues you had with 8. I've been putting off playing it forever despite the hype because the change from 2D to 3D has me kind of concerned.

>>3976240
Dragon Quest has the best towns in JRPG history.

>>3976454
The key to good JRPG combat design is throwing encounters at the player that force them to use the full extent of their array of skills no matter how big or small.

Grandia has a sophisticated battle system yet it falls completely flat on its face because the game fails to put you up against enemies that can genuinely fuck your shit up. If you can make it halfway into a game without feeling threatened or challenged in any way whatsoever in belongs in the trash heap of bad game history.

Also i'm convinced anyone who says JRPG combat is mindless healing/attacking is a mouth breathing dumbass who'd rather brute force through a game than put the chances on their side by experimenting and optimizing the sequence of events on their end. I've seen people on /v/ say Persona 5 on hard is unfair bullshit because it forces you to actually exploit your enemies' weaknesses rather than instakill them with all-out attacks. How can you miss the point this fucking bad.

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>>3976485
Are there any non-SaGa hidden gems in Kawazu's library I might have missed that implement a similar system? I loved the rudimentary implementation of it in FF2 so I tried out Saga Frontier (which was also to be my introduction to the SaGa series) for a second fix but the game's layout completely failed to engage me.

Frontier kind of felt like a glorified asset tour to me and i'm worried the rest of the series will give me the same impression. I'm still looking forward to playing a translated version of RS2 someday.

>>3976697
not that guy, but try ff legend I and II for the gameboy for something between FF2 and SaGa

>>3976706
>I'm still looking forward to playing a translated version of RS2 someday.
Get the one on Android.

>>3976687
>The key to good JRPG combat design is throwing encounters at the player that force them to use the full extent of their array of skills no matter how big or small.
Is that ever a thing? In every games I played I just spam my most powerful skills and spells.

>>3976710
I refuse to pay $20 for a mobile game

>>3976719
Ah yes, please tell me more about your favorite Tales games.

>>3976697
>Are there any non-SaGa hidden gems in Kawazu's library I might have missed that implement a similar system?
Not really if you want something similar to SaGa, and especially not in the retro part.
Rudra no Hihou has a nifty and unique spell system that lets you create your own spells, but everything else might as well be from a FF game.
Legend of Mana has a lot of Kawazu's trademarks but it's still a very different system from SaGa, and it's more of a lovechild between him and Koichi Ishii really.
I won't go in detail on all the titles he produced or directed because we'd need to go into really weird and obscure shit like Racing Lagoon or Wild Card, but SaGa's specific mechanics never went beyond that series, though of course you can see some of Kawazu's general philosophy in most of the games he directed or produced.

Non retro wise, The Last Remnant is a SaGa game under a different name, so check that out if you want that kind of stuff, the FF Cristal Chronicles series also have a similar race system to the GB SaGa and Frontier but they're completely different games and Kawazu basically stopped having direct input after the first one, and it shows.

There's quite a few games that were inspired by SaGa though, Pokemon and Grandia might be the most eminent examples, but there's also some obscure stuff like Starlight&Prairie that use a very similar system to classic SaGa games.

Kawazu's philosophy is to give as much freedom to the player as possible, that also translates into very weird and esoterical game systems that also tend to have some oversights and a lot of rough edges, but the unifying trait in all of his game is that, give the player control of what they're doing as much as possible.
Every SaGa game is still a very different experience from each other, so I suggest you to try them out one by one and see which one clicks with you.

I personally think that Wild Card is an amazing game, but it's not or everyone, and it's mind numbingly complicated.

>>3976194
>FF became a brand name fueled series that ripped off other games and put its name on them to sell and further empower its brand name
What?

>>3976150

Aren't we all?

>>3976730
FF is the JRPG boogeyman.

>>3976729
Thanks a lot for the comprehensive writeup.

>>3976770
You're welcome.
I'd also suggest you to look into both Koei and Artdink libraries, they don't really make stuff similar to Kawazu's but there's quite a few games from them that share the same interest for free systems, dynamic stories and player freedom, along with some very neat experimentation and fusion of genres which Kawazu also loves, they're unfortunately neglected in the west but there's some really good stuff to play.

And naturally, the Metal Max series, that's another must play, especially for any RPG /vr/ trooper, go check Returns for the SNES, it has an okay-ish english patch too.

>>3976421
>The open-endedness just means you're doing the same shit as in FF but without a decent reason behind it.
>>3976507
>but in SaGa's case it just makes the game feel even less coherent and plotless.
>>3976553
>This is exactly what I mean by incoherent and plotless. You're just going around doing random shit for random people
Did you even listen to any of the NCP's in town? Did you even talk to the Minstrel? He tells of a story of Saruin's return and he is the lord of all of the monsters. Guess what, there has been some serious monster activity. Not only that through quests or even exploration you get to even uncover more about that tale that is recanted by oration along with trying to see if the so called fatestones that defeated him were even a thing.

There is plenty of plot, but unlike a lot of other RPG's it is told through you exploring areas rather than cut-scenes or through a bunch of text when you enter new areas. Additionally when you do more and more quests you can piece together more about the world around you along with the characters that inhabit it.

It is a simple story that has been done before, but it is done in a refreshing way.

>>3976697
A game that is worthwhile in checking out if you want to experience some natural growth mechanics is Hybrid Heaven for the N64. It offers various off the beaten path mechanics from learning skills by having enemies perform them on you, to how the battle system actually is. Not a Kawazu game, but I do recommend it.

>>3976670
(part 1)
That guy, here is my experience.

First of all I don't want you to think I hated it, I just felt let down compared to the other games. VIII is a return to a more basic style of DQ, and a little too basic and safe in my opinion. In VIII you have for party members (six if on 3ds). These characters have very obvious assigned roles to them (hero, muscle, black mage, white mage) meaning that their is little ways to differentiate their purpose in battle. In VIII there were two changes to combat, the skill tree and tension system. The skill tree is an interesting idea and would seem to encourage replayability but my problem is the imbalance of skills. I get there being an optimal way to use the skill tree and allocate points into your characters but skills typically are either helpful or absolutely fucking useless and outclassed. Tension is kind of weird. It works as almost a temporary buff and is gone once you act after building it up. It feels useless in normal battles as wailing on enemies is typically just easier and quicker and in boss battles its easy to abuse as you can have your attackers build their tension, heal them with your healer, then have them do absurd damage to the bosses. There is also the alchemy pot but I didn't play around with this too much, i kind of wish you could throw any two items together even if they create something worse.

Above all that I found it just kind of slower paced. In battle your characters and the enemies both are shown doing their attacks. This isn't as bad as some of the stupid as fuck long summons in the ps1 FF games but after awhile I found myself getting annoyed by this. In most jrpgs the characters jump to the enemy, attack, then jump back to their spot. In VIII they actually walk up attack, then jump back. I know this sounds petty but I felt it really wasted time in combat.

>>3976670
>>3976905
(ps2)
For many western players VIII was their introduction to the series. Having been unfamiliar with any of the deeper mechanics such as the job systems, monsters, or character management of previous games. For them this call back to a simpler style was probably refreshing as when it came out in the early 2000's jrpgs were becoming quite over the top and trying to make turn based stupidly complicated.

DQVIII is a great game, I enjoyed it, but for me it didn't hook me like the others. My first was DQV on an emulator, I finished it in three days since I was obsessed with it start to finish. You should try VIII, most love it and you probably will to, all I mean to say is it is a simpler game and as a fan of the older games I think they oversimplified it too much to me.

>>3976917
Fuck, I wrote ps2 instead of part 2.

>>3976570
>>3976650
Why are JRPGfags the biggest autists on the board?

>Hurr, muh menu simulator is good!!! Fuk u!!!

>>3975668
FF5's job system is fucking perfect.

>>3975128
I'll stick with ys

>>3977276
Sorry people talking about videogames pisses you off, maybe /vr/ isn't for you champ.

>>3977294

i dont agree with him in his views, but theres one thing i think hes somewhat right: that JRPG dont offer too much in the gameplay field, and for that reason is why nowadays they are dead along with point n click adventures.

>>3976436
Well, someone has to be retarded, it's just statistics.

>>3977305
Eh, that's a fair argument but that was nothing of what he said. He saw someone actually post about a videogame and try to give detail and his autism told him this was worth shitposting about.

Personally I think turn based is fine and can be quite fun, it really just depends. Recently myself I played BoFIV, combat was actually one of my favorite aspects and got me hooked. I think turn based can be interesting but developers are unsure how to innovate it.

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>>3976706
>Frontier kind of felt like a glorified asset tour to me
What's that even supposed to mean? It was rushed and crippled in development, but what's there is still great and full of fascinating ideas, like Red's toku hero mechanics. I played through it a month ago and it became my favorite 5th gen RPG.

>>3977346
I don't care for sprite theater.

>>3977726
What the fuck are you even talking about?

>>3977314
I never said I don't understand RPG mechanics, they're just incredibly boring.

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>>3975128
It depends on your tastes in women or men.

>>3976687
>How can you miss the point this fucking bad.

It can be boring when every 5 steps you have a fight that looks exactly like the last 20 combats.

>>3977276
>Why are JRPGfags the biggest autists on the board?
So, someone pointing out a liar and mouthbreather who talks about games he never played is autism now?
>>3977305
>and for that reason is why nowadays they are dead along with point n click adventures.
The last big hit worldwide is a turn based JRPG, what the fuck are you even talking about?
Even Dragon Quest is still alive and kicking and selling million of copies, same with Pokemon, Fire Emblem, SMT, SaGa and whatever turn based series, fucking SMHUPS are deader than turn based RPGs.

>>3978165
>The last big hit worldwide is a turn based JRPG, what the fuck are you even talking about?
I think Persona 5 didn't sell nearly as much as you think it did.

>>3978175
Look at /v/ and all the major gaming site, P5 is a hit, no matter how many sales figures you pull out of your ass, people talk about it, turn based RPGs are far from dead as you want to believe.

>>3978303
I don't know, Pokémon is more what I associate with successful turn based RPG.

>>3978306
So a franchise that sells millions of copies is not successful because there's another turn based franchise which sells more million copies than that?
I guess everything's a failure compared to Candy Crush or Fifa then.

>>3978313
Yes, basically.

Why does /vr/ turn into /v/ whenever JRPGs are brought up?