Invincible

>Games are still fun when you're invincible (a lot more fun in fact)

Games can be designed to be fun when you're invincible, and WarioLand 4 is a good example, but this isn't automatically true at ALL.

>instead of freaking out that you need to run and jump in exactly the right way to avoid the projectile that's going to take away your last portion of life.
You realize many gamers find this exciting, right?

If I just want to play a game with puzzles, nine times out of ten I'll go for a point-and-click adventure game. I play platformers primarily FOR the challenge of running and jumping "in exactly the right way to avoid the projectile..." etc.

>it takes the pressure off
if you want no pressure so go play cookie clicker

>>3956356
>>3956368

I don't really like point and click. I do like side-scrollers like Mario Bros 3 or Sonic 2 with the cheats on so you don't take damage. You should try it if you haven't already, it's way more relaxing and fun.

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>>3956370
Ohhhh... I get it.

>>3956327
>I think the role of damage / death as a challenging motivator is premised on a false assumption.

What's the assumption?

>>3956375

It's not bait, it's literally more enjoyable. I put on the action replay codes for not losing rings / starting with all emeralds and it's super-relaxing, you just cruise along and destroy everything in your path while going really fast and launching into the air and shit.

>>3956378

>What's the assumption?

That players need a challenging motivator in the first place. I think we tend to assume that they do because real life is like that, but you can do lots of things in games that aren't like real life and have them be even more entertaining rather than less entertaining.

>>3956379
Wow, that DOES sound fun... for about 20 minutes at most.

Have you never felt the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge in your life?

>>3956356
>Games can be designed to be fun when you're invincible, and WarioLand 4 is a good example
Wario Land 4 has a health meter, you're thinking of 2 or 3.

>>3956384

I felt some satisfaction when I beat Sonic 2 as a kid, or when I got all the emeralds in Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles and unlocked Hyper Sonic, but *those* were the fleeting moments of enjoyment, not this. Accomplishment is overrated. The process before you accomplish something is just work and the moment of release when you get there lasts about two seconds.

>>3956375
I don't think that was bait.

Some people just like roaming around, exploring, and collecting things in a game, especially if there is a lot of detail in level design, graphics, music, and things you can interact with. A game doesn't always have to be challenging to be fun (SotN is a prime example).

>>3956389

My bad, I honestly forgot which was which and just googled for Wario invincible beforehand and picked 4 because it looked like it had a search return related to the topic, but it was probably text about how the invincibility mechanism was abandoned there instead of text about how it was available there.

>>3956392
ok, then go play every game with a trainer and have fun

>>3956390
But there are little moments of that satisfactions throughout any well-designed game.
>>3956392
I just think games designed with that in mind are much more likely to be enjoyable in that way, and to STAY enjoyable, because they weren't developed with the assumption that there would always be a challenge.

Telling other people that they should be turning on cheat codes because "the game's way more fun that way" and acting like all games from here on out should be designed to have literally no challenge is ridiculous.

>>3956395

>a trainer

?

Is this like how Europeans call Sega Genesis 'Mega Drive'?

>>3956403
>a trainer
>?

that's what they're called.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainer_(games)

>Is this like how Europeans call Sega Genesis 'Mega Drive'?

that's what they're called.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%A1%E3%82%AC%E3%83%89%E3%83%A9%E3%82%A4%E3%83%96

>>3956427

It's called a Sega Genesis in the only country that matters.

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>>3956402
>Telling other people that they should be turning on cheat codes because "the game's way more fun that way" and acting like all games from here on out should be designed to have literally no challenge is ridiculous.

No one said that. They suggested you try something, not that hyperbolic bit you added.

Personally I like challenge, but I recognize that different people like different things, and I can appreciate games even if they aren't challenging, because that's not the only reason I to them.

Loosen up a bit.

>>3956465
Here's anon trying to convince people that it's objectively more fun: >>3956370 >>3956379

And then if you look at the OP and >>3956383 together you get the impression that OP thinks game creators only ever put challenges in games because they think they have to.

My favorite game is Day of the Tentacle. There's no way to lose that doesn't just take you back to right before, and you genuinely just click around and solve puzzles and explore and laugh. But to suggest that putting challenges or lose conditions is games comes from some kind of misunderstanding rather than a conscious choice is absurd.

>>3956430
Sonicland?

Okay so I originally had megaman 1,3, and 4 as a child for the NES. I remember it being hard AF and never being able to get very far in any of them. Granted the NES was my moms and I wasnt really old enough to seriously play games until the SNES was out. So about 10 years ago I set out to emulate and cheat my way through all of the megaman games to satisfy my inner child. It was cool to finally play through the series and enjoy it like a movie but I gave up on megaman 5 even with the cheats It was fun for a while but I guess not enough for me to see it through. Fastfoward to last year and I decided to run through the X series on megaman X collection for the ps2 with no cheats. ( no codes for the armor that you can enter at the title screens) And it was a blast kept me busy for months and I really learned to appreciate the level designs. So after completing the X games I decided to try again with the original megaman games ( collection on ps2) and it was just a blast. Finally playing those games and beating them naturally was so much more satisfying and fun. Waaaaaay better and more enjoyable then when I had originally tried

>>3956327
I have a feeling this is a troll, but even if so, he's totally correct.

I didn't play doom without cheat codes until a couple years after getting the game. I loved the art and the level design, and just wanted to explore it.

and just in general, I loved the visual (and sometimes audio) aspects of video games much more than actually playing them.

I was the type of kid who would throw controllers, and get yelled at by my parents for taking games too seriously.

I don't play video games anymore because I realized that I don't have fun. also I'm an adult and it's embarrassing for adults to play video games.

I still love watching videos about video games, and arguing about video games on message boards.

>>3956629
>it's embarrassing for adults to play video games
>I still love... arguing about video games on message boards.

I guarantee more people would judge you for the latter than the former.

>>3956629

This isn't a troll thread, I hate how everyone is so hypersensitive about detecting bait / trolls everywhere. It really doesn't even matter what the original poster's intentions are if you care about the topic and want to have a conversation about it.

>>3956678
see
>>3956469

If it's not a troll thread, it's still fucking asinine.

It's perfectly possible to start a thread like, "Hey, I really like the invincibility mechanic in some of the Wario games. Why do you think more games don't do this?" instead of starting by suggesting that doing otherwise is always a mistake. I promise Miyamoto knows more about game design than you. If he doesn't make the player invincible, it's for a reason, not because he "fails to understand" that all games should be about pushing buttons to get pretty colors.

>>3956943

Those two phrasings aren't really that different. What does it matter if someone throws out the same idea but does it ultra-politely and passively vs. suggesting that idea is just always better?

>HURR BUT IT'S SOMETIMES, NOT ALWAYS

OK, great. That doesn't really have much to do with the actual topic. You can just go straight to posting an argument for why it's not better in certain situations instead of sperging out about the concept of always.

>>3957030
Imagine coming on this board and posting RETRO GAMES SUCK and then when someone says that's bullshit, you say I JUST MEANT THAT A FEW RETRO GAMES EXIST THAT DON'T SUCK.

Because a few games exist that do a good job being fun without any risk of failure. Most games depend on that to be good. OP came in making a blanket statement when in reality the thing he is saying is only occasionally true.

>>3957152
*I JUST MEANT THAT A FEW RETRO GAMES EXIST THAT DO SUCK

Wow, I fucked that up pretty badly. Anyway, the point stands.

You're not invincible in Wario Land 4 though. You have a health meter, can get damaged and die. Don't know where this meme comes from.

>>3956327
... you aren't invincible in Wario Land 4 though. You're thinking 2 and 3.

Invincibility is a great game design test. If the game turns to shit just because you're invincible, it has been shit in the first place. See Dark Souls, utter crap.

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I agree with you OP. I love to play ePSXe on Android because it can auto download cheat codes.

Right now I'm playing through Chrono Cross with no battles, it's great. I don't have to waste my entire summer battling and can experience the story myself firsthand in about 14 hours.

I recently beat FF IX the same way.

It's super fun and relaxing and chill to play some of these games with the pressure taken off you. Especially since I've gotten older and my time is much more precious to me, but I love to game.

There are some games I would literally never be able to finish without this, like Elemental Gearbolt for example. I tried for years to beat that game and never could. Light gun games are really fun with infinite continues, as if I went to the arcade with a pocket full of change. If you spent enough, you could beat it.

Funny how invincibility cheats are frowned upon but savestates are not. They are pretty much the SAME THING.

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>>3958234
>playing through Chrono Cross with no battles

That game has very few battles to begin with, you have to go out of your way to fight more than what's intended.

>>3958242
>skipping what you've already beaten is cheating

lmao

>>3958242

They're only the same thing if you're reloading every time you get hit.

>>3957471
>>3957557

Maybe try reading the thread before posting next time:

>>3956394

>>3958234
What is the cheat that turns off battles? Or better yet, one that just turns off the battle music? I tried playing CC last year again, and boy that battle music is worse than I remember. But I kinda just want to play it again to pick up on more of the subtleties that I didn't the first time.

>>3956327
God tier game.

>>3958396
>reading the thread before posting
Who the fuck does that?

>>3958606

Maybe not if it has a thousand posts, but at less than 50 posts you're just being retarded.

>>3958396
>posts Wario Land 4 when talking about games with invincibility
Try not being retarded

>>3958615

>implying they were memorable enough to differentiate by number

It was a Wario game, and it wasn't that first one, but beyond that they all blur together. 2, 3, 4, 7, I don't know.

>>3958596
I guess it doesn't turn them off per se, but you instantly win every fight. I use espxe that gets them from a cheat database off the net automatically. It's the bottom one on Android.