Apperture Grille VS Shadow Mask

You've got the major differences down. It's mostly a matter of personal preference, there's no objective best.

>>3904285
The type of bloom which the 310's high voltage regulator fixes has nothing to do with any supposed tricks used by game developers.

It just means the overall image raster grows and shrinks dependent on the brightness level.

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Aperture grille basically makes for squarer pixels

>>3904335
>It just means the overall image raster grows and shrinks dependent on the brightness level.

I don't get it, what do you mean by that?

Can you show me some examples?

>>3904352
Yeah, I don't really like squarer pixels, I like a smoother image, but I'd like to have vivid colors too.

>>3904352
>>3904335
What's the most recommended Shadow mask TV?

>>3904285
They both have scanlines, but they're just more noticeable on AG. AG is also ridiculously sharp, so if you like seeing big chunky pixels then that's what you should get.
As for color - shadow mask is just as good if you're running your games in RGB.
Personally i prefer shadow mask,

>>3904389
I've got an aperture grill sony and a shadow mask LG Flatron. The LG is great.

>>3904367
Vivid colors will be more a quality of a high quality, well adjusted tube with low hours.

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>>3904389
Personally I like Mitsubishis, though I have a soft spot for Thomson manufactured RCAs.

>>3904423
Mitsubishi was low-key one of the best display manufacturers. Made good IPS flat panel monitors for a while, too.

>>3904419
>>3904423
>>3904392


I see, do you recommend a specific model?

I'd like to have a flat screen.

>>3904285
I saw your post in the other thread. I own both a Panasonic with shadow mask, and also 3 Trinitrons with aperture grill. You are worrying over nothing. Both look fantastic, and it comes down to personal preference. There is a very good chance you would not know one from the other anyway, even directly comparing them.

I personally prefer the Trinitron's not as much for the aperture grill as the fact that they have more service menu options, better sound output including a subwoofer, and larger screens. However, I would not get rid of the Panasonic for anything. It was the first TV I ever saved up and bought myself as a young man in 2001, and it still looks good albeit with heavy bloom for white and bleed for red.

Anyway, as noted elsewhere, flat screen CRTs seems to have more geometry issues. Mine certainly do. So unless you want to invest a bunch of time into making endless corrections, finding a curved screen is probably in your best interest based on your other preferences.

>>3904481
Diamondscan for consumer models.

>>3904692
I can only find PC monitors...

Do you know where I can find a list of TV model no. by brand?

>>3904556
I see, thank you very much for your answer.

I'm thinking about buying a KV-36FV310 and a Shadow Mask TV so I can compare them. I'm trying to find a high-end Shadow Mask model, but there are few information about it compared to the Trinitron.

The Trinitron TVs even got a Wikipedia page with every model listed. If can't work up the geometry issues I'll buy a curved one.

>>3904748

Also, do you think that 36" is just too much?

Maybe I should look for a smaller model?

I would like to have a big TV, but I know I could have more geometry problems, and maybe the sprites/low poly models will look bad on it.

Any good CRTs to look for with Component plug ins?

>>3904753
36" is too large for retro games. Get a smaller CRT, like 20", and sit closer. The graphics will seem crisper. Think like a classic arcade cabinet.

Even the big Sega Astro City candy cabs only had 29" screens, and those were huge.

Get up closer with a smaller screen (<20"). It's so much comfier, trust me

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>>3904814
Agree completely. Even a 32 inch screen is a bit unwieldy and excessive. Once you start crowding 40 inches you get into the "oh god why" range. How many people are you really trying to play with? Is anyone actually going to be impressed? The only 4-player split screen games I can think of that reward twitch and don't have progressive scan output options are Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

>>3904814
>>3904880
I see, thanks for the info.

The only thing left is finding a high end SD TV with Shadow Mask so I can compare it with a KV-20FV300 model.

I can't find any good information except for PC monitors. I can find some TV models, but I'm not sure if they are on a par with the Trinitrons.

https://youtu.be/W86eYfO2nac

This comprehensively explains and demonstrates the difference between aperture grille and shadow mask in the context of video games.

>>3905079
Thanks, I'll watch it.

I think in the consumer scene, aperture grille are the best you'll be getting. Sony did a great job with consumer TVs, and the best shadow mask displays which do put Sony's similarly tiered ones to shame, they are professional ones.

The best way I can describe it, is shadow masks have an organic quality to them where they naturally blend colors and provide clean scanlines. When you're doing 480p as well or even 480i, you get a less sort of janky, wobbly, or in the case of interlaced, jittery feeling image with the blending a shadowmask provides.

I have a few pro displays with shadow masks and they floor me with their picture. My pro sony sets are really sharp too, but that's the difference, the sharpness. They are so remarkably sharp it's clinical and precise. In a sense it's gorgeous but at the same time it does surrender the traits some developers used to get the visual tricks from a CRT.

>>3905079
>>3906879

Yeah, I'm agree with you, after watch the video above I'm 100% sure that I want a Shadow Mask TV.

Do you recommend a model?

I can't find a high end one that can compete with Sony's KV-xxFV310.

>>3906915
I agree*

>>3906915
go pro. Ikegami HTM monitors are unparalleled.

>>3904352
Because it's shit and there are no such things as pixels in analogue CRT light transmission. Dots are the size and shape that they should be, as determined by the signal. Sony best at displaying dots of appropriate size, shape, color.

>>3904285
Are Samsung TVs Shadow Mask or Arpeture Grille?

I have a late-era Samsung CRT which I want to use for retro games on my bedroom since my BVM goes to my game room.

Can anyone help me out on this?

>>3906943
shadow mask, in the early-mid 00's sony licensed out the trinitron technology and displays that used them use the -tron suffix

>>3906948
Okay, that's also what I was thinking.

Good thing it has component input, I still don't know if it supports 480p, though.

>>3906952
probably doesn't do 480p unless it says EDTV somewhere. consumer 480p sets are all shit however. Haven't seen a single pure analog one. If you want good analog HD you'll use a PC monitor or a pro monitor.

that said, the y/pb/pr color space is awesome and using it for 240p games like ps1 on ps2 or the hd retrovision cables is great. scart to component y/pb/pr is also good.

>>3906929
But there ARE pixels in the CRTs themselves. Even your retina has pixels.

>>3906957
Yeah, at least that CRT doesn't force me to use S-Video, composite or God forbid, RF.

And I have my Sony BVM on my game room for everything else.

I can just use HD RetroVision cables for my NESRGB modded Famicom, Super Famicom and N64RGB modded Nintendo 64 as well as a Wii component cables for my GCVideo modded GameCube and Wii.

More HD RetroVision cables for my Sega Master System and Sega Genesis as well as a PS2 with the official component cable.

>>3906948
That's false. The patents Sony held simply ran out.

They never licensed the tech but others were by then free to copy it.

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I really like this one, what do you guys think?

Panasonic CT-27SL33 TAU - 27" CRT TV

>>3906968
Filtered.

>>3907014
If it has RGB or Component it'll be good.

>>3907017
Good. Now you'll no longer feel the need to "correct" me and disseminate more misinformation.

>>3907014
>>3907348
I gave up the Panasonic TAU because of its high-res (700 lines horizontal resolution), the graphics are just too well defined.

I'm looking for something from 95~2000 but with a flat screen and Shadow Mask.

I'll post here if I find something, but I guess I'll end up with a cuverd one even though I really wanted a flat screen one.

>>3908562
I don't get it, why they marketed the Panasonic TAU as a 700 horizontal res TV if it was pretty much the standard?

I got it from Wikipedia:

480i
4:3
704×480 (horizontal blanking cropped)
720×480 (full frame)

Is there something I'm missing here? But it looks like that every SDTV has this resolution.

Maybe they were talking about progressive scan?

>>3908720
With SD CRT's you can have a stupidly high horizontal resolution no problems at all, both my sony and LG are running at 2560x240. They can probably go higher.

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>>3909039
As anon so helpfully pointed out the beam doesn't actually have a horizontal resolution beyond the theoretical speed/timing limit which I'm sure is astronomical. The CRT's surface does though so if you want to get autistic about it the best image would be one with a horizontal resolution that matches the physical pixel density of your tube or a multiple thereof. Actually I guess it might even be theoretically possible to make a 3x horizontal resolution filter that separates the color channels and actually aims to hit the individual slots in the grille but that's pretty crazy.

>>3908720
>>3908562
The NTSC standard is 720 horizontal but definitely not every TV was manufactured to physically have that resolution. I just snapped pic related of one of my cute little 5" consumer sets for example of one that clearly falls short of even the NES's 256x240. Advertising "700 horizontal lines" was saying that you would actually get to see the whole image when watching broadcast TV (minus the 10 lines of overscan on each side).

As an "interesting" aside, we can see that since the NES's resolution isn't an even factor of 700 or 720, when displayed on a typical consumer CRT it would have either had half-pixels all over the place or (more often) significant overscan. That's why the battle for the "correct" way to display game consoles will never end, the "developers' intention" actually didn't exist.

>>3909117
The developer's intention existed, it is pointed out by the Aladin's developers/artists. I don't really know the video, but I can find it if you really want to.

>>3909264
Summarize it for me. Exactly how much horizontal overscan did they expect people to play with? And which version since the SNES and Genesis run different resolutions? On some games the expected overscan is obvious since some half processed data shows up on one edge.

>>3909304
>the "developers' intention" actually didn't exist.

I'm responding to that, the way the graphics were rendered were based on common CRT screens, competent developers used that to make the graphics looks better.

About the technical stuff, it has nothing to do with what you said on quote.

The developer said on the video that Pixel art looks nothing like how they designed the game, the way it was displayed was wrong. And they proceded to show how they actually wanted it to looks like. I'll search the video and post here if I find it.

>>3909789
>>3909304
Found it, right in the beggning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILeyo1iv0A

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>>3909789
But overscan is a separate issue that has little to do with making it look "better". Regardless of the developer's intentions, players would be playing games on a wide variety of CRTs, from crappy old rabbit ear TVs from the 70s with wood veneer, up to high end aperture grille displays. Developers had no way to predict exactly how much of the screen would be visible on any single TV. They just had to test on the most common models and go from there. It's analogous to modern PC devs having to account for any number of different graphics cards. In the end they're making an educated guess based on a hypothetical average.

Most developers accounted for overscan and didn't place important information on the edge of the screen, and as gramps noted, many NES devs didn't bother to clean up junk data on the edges because they knew it would never be visible on most TVs. On the contrary, they actively took advantage of the hidden space.

So there's no one exact answer regarding overscan, but it's somewhere between the extremes of [visible junk on the edges], and [parts of the game window being cut off].

>>3909304
It varies... but around 8 pixels each side is a good start.

btw the NES Classic displays overscan areas, probably just throws up a 256x224 image. You can see the junk data columns on the left and right edges of the screen sometimes. It's ugly and distracting. GJ preserving those classics, Nintendo.

>>3909898
Yes, the overscan is another thing.

I was replying to that comment that implied that the developers didn't take the CRT characteristics in consideration when designing the graphics.

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Mitsubishi made some badass sets back in the day too.

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>tfw no hard and fast rules to define overscan and safe areas in much of the "developed world"

This is why I LOVE THE BBC