Most challenging RPG

>>3852824
Wizardry IV.

Wizardry 4 isn't just luck. You're not going to make it through the game just by manipulating the dice.

The trick for Might and Magic book 1 is to have several Wizards with a high speed stat so you can win battles before the enemies get a move.
You can carry enough food to rest 40 times without going to the Inn so spellpoints are no issue and there are places where you can quickly grind unlimited amounts of gems so you can really spam several Metoer Shower spells every combat round once you learned it.

Nethack

>>3852832
>>3852829
Interesting. I've never played it but I've seen posts here saying it's luck:

"The issue with Wiz 4 isn't just the difficulty, it's how completely RNG-based and tedious your road to success is. There's little "skill" to learn playing this game - unless you count solving extremely obscure puzzles, finding out the one combo of monster summons that doesn't completely suck (trial and error, unless you remember monster types from past wizardries), knowing where to save and being able to keep multiple save backups."

>>3852842
It's a combination of everything that fucks you over. The whole game is an insult for people who demanded a more challenging Wizardry.
You get shit like the ghost chasing you in real time or a limit on the steps you can take.

>>3852824
>as opposed to getting lucky/RNG

Then you may as well exclude anything that involves RNG accuracy / evasion. That covers turn-based RPGs in their entirety.

But one could also say that action RPGs can be cheesed by over-grinding. So honestly, what qualifies as "legitimately" challenging here?

>>3852867
There are turn based games without chance.

>>3852867
Legitmately challenging is trial-and-error stuff like the invisible minefield in Wizardry IV.

>>3852824

There are a few jrpgs with a manual leveling system that will let you totally fuck up your party if you're careless.

>>3852891
Etrian Odyssey series for example, right?

Also Romancing SaGa 2 if you don't research weapons and magic or unlock certain techs

>>3852842
Wizardry IV is one huge puzzle, computer RNG aren't real RNGs, if you give the same inputs you will get the same results. Wizardry IV is a game that requires you to die hundreds of times as you map out each an every move leading to victory, programming a robot to beat the game is easier than actually playing it.

What you should have said is "what rpg that isn't Wizardry IV is the hardest" in which case idk, I'd direct you to Romancing SaGa 2 or probably some roguelike like nethack.

>>3852896
>Etrian Odyssey series for example, right?
No you can reset your stats in those.

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Walk into a grave? Encounter. Lift up a pot lid? Encounter. Look at the stars funny? Encounter.

>>3852941
But you can't even do anything in combat, how's that challenging?

>>3852960
A good chunk of the difficulty is in avoiding fights altogether.

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>>3852941
What the fuck were they on when they designed that game, anyway?

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>>3852941
that's the trouble. most 'hard' rpgs are just shit.

>>3852975
>not posting the sound version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnE9XEC5mWw

>>3852979
Most "hard" games are shit in general. There is a very, very big difference between "Challenging" and "Frustrating", and too many "hard" games go straight to frustrating territory.

>>3852824
Persona 2 EP

>>3852975
>>3853015
wtf is that

>>3853015
I wonder how many kids developed a complex from this.

>>3853015

Are they trying to do a mirage in the weirdest way humanly possible?

>>3853020
I should've been clearer in my OP I guess. I meant games that were genuinely challenging (requiring forethought/strategy) as opposed to frustrating (getting lucky, _needing_ a guide, etc.)

>>3853626
Tactical RPGs are probably the most fitting. There's less randomness involved and you can't just grind endlessly.
But at the same time I think coping with randomness is part of the challenge. You have to anticipate the moment to withdraw so you won't get caught on the wrong foot by a random encounter on your way out.

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>>3852824
do remakes count?

>>3852941
>Look at the stars funny? Encounter.
>a constellation can just decide to fuck you up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM0YhyGOLpQ

>>3852941
I played this on PC and has to be the only RPG I completely gave up on. It was impossible to get anywhere and get strong before getting raped in the butt by some random hazard.
Is the SNES version any worse?

>>3853916
Oh yeah self-replying but as an extra, the PC version had quite the lush package, with a little novel with the backstory, map and all sorts of fancy shit. Got you hyped for the game...then you play it and it's shit.

>>3853650
No. That's not even the same game anymore.

>>3852906
I dont know about the later ones, but you can't reset in the first one.

>>3854061
I seem to recall that you could retire one of your adventurers to train a replacement who got a set of stat boosts based on how strong their mentor was.

>>3853432
Just Drakkhen being Drakkhen
https://youtu.be/aTgckiiVxsE?t=358
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgNQYX2zH1Q

>>3852824
Zelda 2

>>3852824
Super Hydlide

>>3852824
Phantasy Star 2 by a mile. You really need to prep for those dungeons, especially from Climatrol forward, nevermind the dungeons on Dezo with the Nei equipment.

>>3854778
>You really need to prep for those dungeons, especially from Climatrol forward
By which he means "Get the amber robe and crescent gear, and bring an escapipe and telepipe".

>>3854730
I really wish I could like this game more.
Graphics are great, I really like how the equipment is represented, music is eerie and the atmosphere fascinating. But you don't do anything in combat, it's all automatic. I don't get what they were thinking.

>>3852824
I'll jump on the Romancing SaGa 2 bandwagon as far as retro RPGs go, it's really a game that forces you to git gud, moreover it's darn complex, especially for the time and platform it was in, then again all SaGa games are like that.

Phantasy star 2

>>3852840

Haha came to say this, was surprised to see it said already

>>3854795
You sound like a defeatist cuckold.

>>3854778

Another thing about Phantasy Star 2 is that you really have to work hard to get the money to equip your party. Obviously, as in any JRPG with random encounters that drop XP and money, you will eventually have enough money to buy as much as you can hold of anything in the game, but this doesn't happen in PS2 until very late in the game. I remember having to grind for hours in reasonably "safe" terrain (within walking distance of a city) killing Locustas to earn enough to buy Rudo a better gun before even attempting to enter the next dungeon. There is a huge range of equipment to purchase and unlike many JRPGs there are actually a few different effective configurations of equipment you can try out for party members, so it's not always immediately apparent whether,for example, your lead is better off with two ceramic knives or a single steel sword.

Chaos Strikes Back is much much harder than Dungeon Master

>>3854773
Super Hydlide is pretty great. Pity sleepiness makes you absolutely useless. I kinda wish the huge debuff kicked after, like, 24h instead of near immediately at night.

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>>3853015
What the goddamn fuck?

>>3854778
>>3854918
>>3855243
Nailed it. Phantasy Star 2 can be brutal if you go in without a plan.

>>3854795
>using an escapipe yor first time at Skure
>fucked up so bad you have to use escapipe and telepipe to salvage your xp, only to return and go through the same ordeals again.
>Amber robe
>Using that faggot Hugh ever
Wew
Lad

>>3855721
Yeah, I love Super Hydlide. Shame it gets so much hate, generally speaking.

>>3852824
Final Fantasy II

The way you level up your parties skills is extremely different than most (if not all) jRPGs to the point where if you go to the next area the enemies are 4-5x more powerful than your party.
It's not a matter of grinding, it's a matter of knowing how to grind.

One can sit there and grind for an hour think they're ready for the next area but get one shot
Or grind for maybe 10 min and the next area is a breeze

Took me forever on how to learn the mechanics of the game to learn how to grind correctly and that's still using glitches to bait certain tactics or trick the game by making it think I'm proc-ing the internal flags for extra exp

>>3852824
looks sweet

>>3854730
I like Drakkhen. People seem to think unconventional = bad.

>>3857097
No people think shit gameplay = bad.

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>>3852829
Came here to post this.

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>>3853015
Some Drakkhen enemies are next level.
http://www.flyingomelette.com/drakkhen/monsters.html

>>3857432
And some fuckers had the balls to say "Dark Souls is the hardest RPG ever".

>>3856645

The game gets a bit easier if you use new party members that are given to you at opportune times.

>Fighting bio enemies? Hugh!
>Fighting robots? Kain

But the my final party is always Blue Hair, Arnold Schwarznegger, Blond beauty with the boomerang, and cumslut healer.

The items that you can use to cast a spell over and over make resource management a lot easier. If you get into an easy battle, you can use GreenSleeves(?) to heal up your party and then crush the weak encounter.

>>3857493
Nobody who has played it claims that.

>>3859350
Some dumb reviews said it if I remember well.

>>3859356
Reviewers time and time again prove that they don't actually play the games they review. Remember that one guy who whined about "QTE bosses and excessive backtracking" in DmC?

>>3853015
y... you too?

>>3852824

A certain Blades of Exile scenario called Roots.

>>3859416

Crud, hit enter too soon. So, for those unfamiliar with Blades of Exile, it was basically a massive scenario editor so that fans could make games that were similar, engine wise, to Exile 3, which was a nice indie game that was reasonably popular.


Most of the games built with it are similar to Exile, kind of sandboxy party exploration heavy RPGs where you can level and earn up your way out of most difficult fights.

Roots was not built that way. Roots gives you a pre-made character who is significantly weaker than a normal, level 1 character. There is no overworld filled with randomly spawning monsters you can grind against; XP is doled out primarily through plot progression and there are no trainers, so you're stuck with a puny amount of health and skills for the whole game. You are also a drug addict, to a certain fictional potion thingy, withdrawal is fatal. You have a limited supply to get through teh whole game with, and will be nearing terminal when you fight the final boss. Other symptoms of withdrawal include amnesia, which is fun, because at the start of the game YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'RE A DYING ADDICT. If you take the time to wander around your house and explore, you'll probably die.

Fights often center around using the few obscure spells you know in tricky ways to even have a fighting chance, since you are weak as balls in hand to hand and don't have access to any spells that are anything good, or any equipment worth a damn. It's absolutely brutal.

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>>3853015
>Those moans in the SNES version
https://youtu.be/GfRMCnaFmQY

>>3855243Thats nothing special though. Ff1 does that with its gear.
Not to mention the spells for your mages. Come the second city you're already forced to grind with just one wizard and god forbid you picked anything besides the WM that uses magic early.
And if you double up on knights and red mages you'll be strapped for cash the whole game.

>>3855243
Same thing happens in the SNES version of DQV
You guaranteed will not have enough money to buy all the endgame equipment
Not that hard of a game though (Ivol was hard, and Buorn when I tried to fight him too early)