How should they have followed up S3&K?

>>3840578
Sonic Mania

Should have released sanic x-treme, in whatever state it was.

Then, at least it wouldn't have killed the company and they would have had the money to keep experimenting until they got it. Something would have worked eventually.

Yes, the two adventures were decent and a good start, but they needed to keep refining the direction. Being basically bankrupt, there was no way in hell anything of any quality could have ever again come out of the company.

>inb4 generations

It's all right. Everything could have been better. Way better.

>>3840585
I'll admit, I'm a bit hype for it.

>>3840589
The early Saturn demo of Sanic Xtreme looks like shit, but the later PC demo (in the ice level) really grew on me.

>>3840578
Business-wise? No. Saturn would tank anyway, and no 3D would make every Nintendo shill in every magazine say it "feels soooooo last gen near Mario 64".

But just to create another excellent game? Certainly yes.

>>3840602
How would a 3D sidescrolling Sanic (à la Pandemonium) have fared against SM64?

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>>3840597
>>3840585
Sonic Mania doesn't look bad. But people are missing the whole point of what made Sonic good. You can easily emulate the style, the mechanics, etc. But you can't just copy the awesome branching levels, all the carefully planned challenges these games presented, the tight feel of the control and the physics, and some of the most refined and cohesive artistic directions in platformers.
In order to make a true Sonic 4, you need a whole bunch of very talented people in one room. I fear with indie devs, you won't have a single one.

>>3840612
The first Crash was mostly like that and it did very well. Nights is essentially like that, but you're flying. Their mistake was tying up Sonic Team with Nights. They could have always made it later, instead of as a launch title.

>>3840623
maybe if they make it their life's work and release it in like 20 years...

>>3840612
Sonic Xtreme videos are pretty well-known by now. It's hard to say exactly how it would have fared, but let's try to break it down.
Speaking of critical reception, it's pretty obvious. SM64 is regarded as one of the most ground-breaking games of all time. And frankly, Sonic Xtreme is not near that. Let's be honest, that didn't kill Crash Bandicoot; but Sonic Xtreme looks like a demo based on one gimmick, which does look pretty clunky and nausea-inducing too. The speed is gone, the levels look pretty lame (although it might be just pre-release stuff).
Commercially, it just didn't have enough to wow people, IMO. Needless to say, it was on Saturn so it was doomed from the start. But still, it took the speed and the pinball physics of Sonic 2 and gave back what, fisheye and rotating world? It's a cool premise for an obscure 1-trick-pony platformer which you rent for a weekend, beat in one sitting and forget. And it would inevitably be pitted against SM64, let alone other 3D games of the era with rotating cameras and auto aiming; even Crash honestly looks more promising than an awkward game putting Sonic into a spinning world.
I think it wouldn't work as a system seller; IMO it's a weak game, pretty much riding off of Sonic brand name.

>>3840667
I'm familiar with X-Treme, I'm thinking more along the lines of something that plays like the Genesis Sonic games, but with a 3D environment. Could the Saturn have handled it?

>>3840667
>riding off of the Sonic brand name
At that time, this alone might have helped them sell enough systems to at least survive. Sonic was still wildly popular and a Sonic game for Saturn was hotly anticipated by many.

>>3840674
That's basically what Nights was. So yes, it could have handled it.

>>3840674
>>3840684
Genesis games were great showcases of Genesis power. And Saturn was Saturn. Trying to capture the same thing on Saturn was kind of missing the point, you wouldn't get the same revolutionary game, the same wow effect.
But more importantly, would Saturn be able to handle it? A game so centered on speed and 2D makes a shift to a slow 3D platform. They'd need to sacrifice and change something at the very least.
Still, I definitely imagine more standard, Pandemonium-style Sonic would have fared better than X-treme. Not trying to beat Nintendo in innovation game would be a smart decision, Saturn was not ready for it.

>>3840597

The Point of View build was coming along well honestly, could run smoothly on the Saturn and didn't have that fish-eye shit going on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ncpu-H0TuE

Only problem is SEGA was a fucking trash-fire at the time and they sent over the assets to Point of View so they could restart development WITHOUT telling Chris Senn and SoA, who were still developing the other version. So for a short while there were two Sonic X-Treme's being developed at the same time, many seem to think SEGA didn't even see the POV build when they scrapped it. You could write a book on mismanagement with everything that went wrong with this game.

>>3840684

To your point, Sonic 3D Blast was a terrible upscale job of a game and still sold really well, as did Sonic Jam. Imagine the money they'd have made if they put out a game worth a shit.

>>3840578
They should have worked on a 2D Sonic launch title for the Saturn.

With that to secure sales, then they could have worked on something more experimental, like Sonic X-treme.

Basically, they needed to ignore the 32X altogether and just focus on a 32bit Sonic instead. Sonic Mars was a mistake, basically.

>>3840667
This exactly. Sonic Xtreme looked so gimmicky and honestly a bit awful. It looked far too automated as well, and watching footage of it it's horrendous to keep up with the whole thing.

In hindsight, it's so weird and wacky that you can't help but love its weirdness in a way. If it had been released though, mark my words it would have been the black sheep of the Sonic series. It's just a bit too much out there compared to other games, and definitely wouldn't have the staying power needed for a system seller, in contrast to SM64, as you said,.

I mean, look at Clockwork Knight and Clockwork Knight 2. They were good games, but I've literally only played them each a few times at best, and then not more for an hour for each one. That's how Xtreme would have been. I can't tell you the number of hours I've poured into SM64 though.

Most of the Saturn's greatness came far too late, it must be said. Panzer Dragoon Zwei is absolutely incredible, and Saga even more so, by the first Panzer Dragoon is more a proof of concept than anything, and pales so hard in comparison to its sequels. By the end, the Saturn had Grandia, Shining Force III, Saga, and a bunch of amazing titles it could be proud of, which provided the deeper experience the console needed. Without games to really get yourself involved with however, it was more or less doomed from the start.

>>3841002
That sounds really reasonable. It's probably what should have happened for real.

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>>3841019
>it's so weird and wacky that you can't help but love its weirdness in a way
Fisheye all the way is so '90s

>>3840623
>the tight feel of the control and the physics
Pretty sure with Christian Whitehead's engine this won't be a problem in the slightest.

>>3841037
BREATHE IN BREATHE OUT

Reminder that Sonic 4 exists.

>>3840578
It would have been cool if they had a 2d game exactly like the ones in the genesis but at high resolution or low resolution but a lot of particle, rotating and resizing stuff (being just graphical gimmicks, not affecting gameplay) and color cycling too. The same sound wise. So, basically more of the same but using all the extra power for presentation (and maybe bigger or more levels, but s3k was already quite alright in this regard)

>>3840578
Sanic!

>>3840578
S3&KKK

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>>3842515
KKKNUCKLES&
Knuckles & knuckles

>>3842535
Did Sonic have any food-themed levels? What a missed opportunity.

>>3840589
>sanic x-treme
the game was canceled because it was shit though, wasn't it?

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>>3842595
After 2010 it did.

>>3840623
>I fear with indie devs, you won't have a single one.
go play some Freedom Planet and then get back to me.

>>3842603
jeez, it's like some one wanted to make a new zool game or something, all it needs is some chup chup wrappers on some of the lolipops

>>3842614
Luckily, no one younger than 20 has ever even heard of zool

>>3842601
It was shit. But considering Sonic's popularity at the time, it would have still sold quite a bit better than most shovelware

Is there a date for Sonic Mania yet?

>>3840623
>doesn't know that everyone involved is famous in the sonic hacking scene

I can't wait for Mania to do better than project whatever2017

>>3842716
"Q2 2017", apparently.

Expect it in late June, I'd imagine.

>>3842718
>hacking scene
Why does that not inspire any confidence? The glory days of gaming will never return...

>>3842724
I'm not sure why you're not inspired, but I'm a huge fan of Taxman's work with the updated Sonic CD and his Sonic 1 & 2 HD

>>3841037
Just put the camera on the ground and aim it up!

My kicks look huge and my crew looks tough!

>>3842874
We got bulbous hands and bulbous feet!

Now turn your back to the camera, shake those bulbous cheeks!

>>3842704
even if they had I don't think we are in risk of a Zool franchise revival anyhow, since despite what some Euros might insist they weren't very good games.

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>>3842874
Needs oversaturation too

>>3842724

If that doesn't inspire confidence in you, you just don't know shit. There are tons of great Sonic hacks out there, guys like Whitehead were active for 10+ years and know the games inside and out. Not every rom hacking community is as bad as the ones centered on Mario titles.

>>3842724
Christ, you come off as a total faggot.

>>3841712
This. Blue Spheres is the only one where you actually feel like you're in total control, and if you fuck up, it's your fault.
1's special stages were a middle ground.
The Half Pipe is fucking trash. You can barely see anything until it's right in your face, and Tails is going to hit the bombs almost every time.

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>>3842515
>>3842535

Like a Mania on the saturn, with a mix of Genesis soundtrack+Cd, with Sonic 3 branching paths.

Which makes me wonder, why the fuck didn't Sega released CD for the Saturn? It would sell and would be the first time playing that shit for many because parents would never buy expensive add-ons

>>3842939
>half pipe
>rings in the air
>spikes everywhere
>memorization
From stage 5 to 7 it can be pure hell. You can't even mess up, while the blue spheres you can think and even quick jump over things when you mess up and get way with it.

>>3840585
YES

this guy.... this guy gets it

>>3840623
sonic 2 special levels was pretty fuckin awesome so just copy that

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>>3840597
>>3840623
>>3843705
Thanks for the kind words. I haven't played Sonic Mania yet, but I am pretty excited as seeing the footage is exactly what I want out of the game. I am not looking for excellence in game design, but just a good time. The footage of Sonic Mania does appear to have the "flow" and "rhythm" to the stages which has me really interested. The songs so far does have a feel of SonicCD to me which is in tune with my tastes.

https://youtu.be/dvNQw9MROns

Funny enough, my personal favorite bonus stages are the ones from 1 (and the polygon sections of Chaotix) as it still exercises some platforming game mechanics.


>>3842724
I used to get a lot of games [spoiler[bootlegged[/spoiler] on DOS with some small executable showing off some visual techniques and nice music. Then I got Zone 66 by Epic Megagames and then I learned about the demoscene which does do some nice tricks, and sometimes push hardware in impressive (to me) ways. While Zone 66 is not one of those "all time great" games, I loved playing it and its music a lot. Seeing those hacks on the Sonic Retro site, some are pretty skillfully done. Taxman's recreations are pretty good in my opinion. The footage I saw of Sonic Mania so far does demonstrate some knowledge of the flow and rhythms I most like in speed-styled stages of the old Sonic games, so long as Sonic is played (Tails flying may ruin a lot of the stage design). I don't speedrun my way through Sonic games, I tend to explore around, but that's how I've enjoyed playing the games, everyone is allowed the freedom to play it how they like to, and fortunately from what I have seen, the stages are much more expansive catering to me:

https://youtu.be/bRabF0_MOeA

>>3844521
>hydrocity act 2

immaculate taste, fampai

-A proper Sonic 32X with a lot of visual gimmicks with the same 16 bits gameplay.

-In 1995, or early 1996 a Sonic for Saturn that predates what Crash Bandicoot was about to do.

Sonic 4 featuring another miscellaneous character named after a body part.

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>>3840578
They should have made that game with Sonic's sister. Not even lying famalam.

>>3842962

CD actually did get a PC release during the Saturn era, which is where most people I know played it first. I can only imagine they didn't port it for the Saturn to avoid drawing any more attention to the fact almost every Sonic game on the system was a port.

Sonic X-Treme sucked in every single sense. They didn't knew what they were doing, that's why the thousands of different prototypes and ideas, all gimmicky. Even those awful plastic pre-rendered graphics sucked so much.

>>3840870
But this is just Bug!. And Bug! already "did it to the Saturn", according to some jewish movie director...

>>3840585
>>3842609
>>3842718
I fail to see how the guys on Sonic Mania are good developers.
They're all just aping Sonic. Like every fanboy, they can't create, just copy. Fanboys aren't devs, that's why indie games mostly suck.

Freedom Planet is very good, but wouldn't exist without Sonic. If Freedom Planet was released in 1996 the game would be ridiculed as "just another Sonic wannabe" and grouped with all those Amiga games no one played. I believe Sonic Mania will be good, but just because they're doing their best to copy classic games.

>>3845738
>Sonic Mania will be good, but only because it will be like classic Sonic games

What the fuck are you trying to argue?

>>3845747
That Sonic Mania developers can emulate a Sonic game, not create one. So they aren't good developers.

>>3845738
>>3845774
This.
Freedom Planet is a decent clone at best, donut steel Sonic OC game at worst. Bubsy would be indie today.

>>3845774
but they aren't trying to "create" one. They're taking the design philosophies and physics engine and making another one.

Sega didn't really innovate on the formula at all going from sonic 1 - 2 - 3&k. They just refined their level designs and worked out the kinks, and that's all the mania devs are doing.

>>3846814
They aren't trying and they aren't capable of creating one. So, they aren't good developers.

>>3841002
>>3841026

That /was/ what was supposed to happen. drx (well known prototype dumper/researcher) interviewed SoA's president from back when a few years ago, and found out that Knuckles Chaotix was supposed to be THE Sonic 4, on the Saturn. But then it was decided the Saturn Sonic title needed to be 3D, and the 32X needed a system seller. So Sonic 4 the got cut down and half-assedly finished, released as Knuckles Chaotix, and the rest is history.

>>3847015
>i've long ago made up my mind and it angers me nobody agrees
>i will even contradict myself to be right

That's fine I'll be too busy having fun.

>>3847131
I always thought that might me the case. My cut instinct just said they wouldn't have made those kinds of graphics simply for a half-arsed spin-off.

Ah, what could have been.

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>>3840623
>>3840578
>>3844521
I feel the need to post pic related.

>>3847015
>So, they aren't good developers.

but if they're just copying what SEGA has done, and a good Sonic game comes out, does it matter whether or not they're good developers? A good Sonic game will release with their names on it.

>>3840578
Sonic Chaotix.

>>3847448

Of course it doesn't matter, if anything people will be calling for them to replace Sonic Team altogether when it comes out. Especially if Project Sonic 2017 is at all disappointing.

>>3847182
I'm not contradicting myself. One anon said they weren't talented developers, and I do agree for those reasons. Indie developers just copy old games.

Sonic Mania will be a game designed by committee, a committee of fans.

Those developers can become real developers one day. As Whitehead's claim to fame is emulating Sonic gameplay on his engine, John Carmack's first great achivement was reproducing Mario 3 on a PC. Carmack went on to create real games, but current indie developers are stuck with aping old games and don't seem to want to change that.

>>3847984
Carmack is not a game designer

>>3848001
But is a developer, not just a fanboy. And he did design some games.

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>>3842897
It actually almost happened.
>The development ofNinjabread Manbegan as a re-imagining of theCommodore AmigaclassicZool: Ninja of the Nth Dimensionwhich was largely favourably received on its initial release in 1992. Zoo Digital Publishing commissioned DDI to re-imagine Zool as a 3D game for eventual release on the PlayStation 2 and theGameCube, however the publisher was unimpressed with the results and canned the project

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>>3849252
It all makes sense now

>>3840585
Correct answer. So hyped for this.

>>3842609
Freedom Planet is trash. There's no flow, you're constantly get stopped by walls and shit. That's why the Sonic OC donut steel has the ability to boost in any direction, to give the illusion of speed. And the cutscenes are fucking awful. Sonic makes me laugh in a good bad movie way, Freedom planets makes me cringe and want to punch furries.

>>3842724
Have you played Sonic The Next Level? Do that and get back to us. Shit's amazing.

>>3844521
>US OST
Except for Sonic Boom, trash. It encompasses everything wrong with western style Sonic, trying to hard to be edgey. Ex: Boss track. Japanese version is cheesy but at least it's not fucking ow the edge tier.

>>3844692
I played CD for the first time like 18 months ago, or so I thought. When the music started and the I cleared Palmtree Panic I was overwhelmed with a nostalgic "I've been here before" feeling. Was it ever released as part of a demo disc?

>>3849252
Wasn't this same reskinned like four times as different games?