the byuu 100

So we've had a couple less than successful "/vr/ archaeology" threads but this thing with byuu's brown bavarian box really got me thinking about what incredibly diverse standards the community has for different platforms. Here Byuu is obsessively REDUMPING dumped roms using his personal ultra-accurate method officially just to get the hashes while Nemesis over at assemblergames is the first person to even attempt to undertake comprehensive ripping of the Laseractive library - of which original versions are skyrocketing so bad it makes me afraid he's got an uphill battle.

http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563

If someone holds onto previously unreleased/unripped roms then they arent doing it for "preservation".

If the only known physical copy is in their possession and the only known tom copy is in their possession, then the data is at the same risk of being lost forever.

The data needs to be propagated throughout the community for it to be preserved.

>>3831669
This whole story with byuu and his redumps reminds me of shiny Pokemon. Old autism wasn't good enough anymore, so we needed some next level of autism. Serves right the author of the emulator who talks that only with 3GHz processor you can get perfect Pong emulation at 5-10fps.
It's good enough that enthusiasts have dumped all these ROMs and uploaded them online for free. Treating it like a Pokemon hunt is just autism at full force. People spend more time obsessing over games themselves than playing them and it's just sad. Expecting to find diamonds among the undumped games is some intense wishful thinking.

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>>3831705
I agree that the best method of preservation is through broad distribution not unlike "cloud" storage but with even more copies since the people storing them are also using and enjoying them - that's an organic process.

Of course the first thing that jumps to our mind is the prototype collectors like the Socks the Cat guy and the dude holding the Vertexer PCB. Nobody including them is denying they're holding those games for personal reasons be they fame, profit, both or other - but what is the solution? Once someone has "invested" thousands of dollars into ultimately a few kilobytes of data what's the most direct path to that data becoming public (and "worthless")? The old "sell it then publish the dump" method probably - wide awareness of which makes the games even less likely to ever leave their hands

But aside from the prototype collectors, there are serious preservationists who hold all the data for maybe legal or ethical reasons like byuu (in theory) or more realistically like the Game Preservation Society Tokyo.

It seems that Japanese people in general are much more reluctant to "pirate" software. I don't know if this is a cultural or legal thing or some of both or first one then the other but Anon really had to beg that one nip hard to get him to rip Chu-Teng.

It would be nice for the board as a whole to get so amped up about and focused on a single piece of "lost" software that way again.

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>>3831747
So your opinion is basically that it's an organic process that doesn't really need any particular effort because the people that own games they love will just naturally want to dump them and share them, right?

I can totally see this perspective tbqhpham. I mean, I have a special weakness for shitty FMV games but probably my particular obsession with Laseractive is just a combination of nostalgia from being blown away by Dragon's Lair as a kid along with avarice because that hardware is rare and only becoming increasingly valuable to the point of probably not ever standing a chance of being in my collection - although I really really should buy a big red MVS in the next couple years.

Speaking of Neo Geo were you guys aware of the $30,000 fake copy of pic related that sold in 2012? I remember when the satellite hacking hobby got its stakes up that high that people might get killed and/or go to prison for a long time. It was right before the whole thing more or less collapsed but no sign of that on the horizon for retro collecting. Makes me want to think about trying my hand at "reproducing" some AES games. What's mindboggling is it wasn't even an undumped, unreleased game!

>>3831770
yeah neo-geo fags are insane

>>3831752
>serious preservationists who hold all the data for maybe legal or ethical reasons like byuu

Byuu's a hoarder, he ain't preserving jack shit.

>tfw you'd like to preserve games and keep them available for anyone to download.
>don't know how.

>>3832017
he said "(in theory)" which means he knows it's bullshit, but at least he has a very flimsy excuse

>>3831770
>What's mindboggling is it wasn't even an undumped, unreleased game!

While of course there are exceptions, the relative rarity of prototypes doesn't always seem to directly lead to high prices. Sure, chances are a prototype of game X will sell for more than a retail copy of game X, but there are instances where a prototype of a game will sell for less than a CIB copy of the same game. I'm under the impression that a lot of the truly batty, "ready to spend $10k on a PowerPad game" collectors aren't yet in the prototype market. Prices on them are going up, though.

>>3832017
>>3832047
If we're giving him the benefit of the doubt we might presume he actually does intend to release them anonymously and it's the file hash release that's his excuse to dump them. Of course considering "byuu" is already a pretty anonymous pseudonym he'd have to be hyper paranoid to want to add a second level of anonymity but it's not hard to believe that he is.

>>3832034
The easiest safest way is just to be a hoarder. Hunt down FTP archives of obscure games, leech them and keep them archived yourself for when and if those old FTP sites vanish.

Or just let's discuss obscure games in general that may not be currently available for download then seek out physical copies, dump them and upload them to various file sharing sites - or seed a torrent.

>>3832094
I guess there's not as much street cred in owning something unique as there is owning something that's just extremely rare.

I wonder how long before e-celebs start leveraging their "authority" to truly manipulate the market.

>>3832095
But I don't know how to dump, is the thing. I'd totally go to the autistic lengths that Byuu does, but I'd actually make my stuff available to people.

>>3832212
You can make isos of cd roms I'm sure

>>3832215
Idk. Never tried, m8. But I probably would do things for disc based consoles.

>>3832145


Yeah, prototypes aren't necessarily cheap, but I imagine that a lot more collectors are willing to pay a few hundred for a CIB Earthbound than there are those who'd pay $150 for some random SNES prototype.

>byuu
is that the guy that was throwing a fit over usps losing a package sent to him while he begged for money? What ever happened to that?

I am baffled that this is the third thread about this now, where the previous two had over 100 replies. Honestly why the fuck do you chuckleheads care about this guy?

>>3832245
It was found and wound up in his possession

>>3832253
>spergs out hard, specifically saying that he will not listen to anybody saying that it's just delayed
>turns out it was just delayed

>>3832249
This thread isn't meant to specifically be about that, it's about preservation in general since that incident currently has people thinking about and discussing the topic. I think it's going pretty well. Maybe try reading the thread and commenting on one of the various topics or feel free to introduce one of your own.

>>3832257
Actually the address label was ripped off so technically it was lost in transit. It was only when byuu flipped out and got the gaming media involved in the story that the box suddenly turned up.

>>3832279
Or it might have had something to do with him making a lost package claim.

>>3832279
Also:

>HEY YOU STOLE MY PACKAGE! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM!?
>Listen sir, if you think you package has been lost, please contact the package recovery facility in
>NO! RETURN WHAT YOU HAVE STOLEN! I'LL SUE YOU!

Guess where it wound up?

>>3832259
Ya know, one should generally wait for an old thread with a similar topic to sage before making the new thread.

Unless you like having 12 threads about Sonic ports, or 6 threads about Mario Kart.

>>3832312
Again, this is a thread about game preservation in general. Sorry if you feel like it's stealing posts from your thread that wasnt my intention at all.

filtered.

>>3832353
Yeah, but it's pretty similar.

Either way, it's not helping if your goal was "to clean up /vr/"

>>3832353
>About preservation in general
>Thread title is "The Byuu 100"

You brought this upon yourself, tripfaggot.

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Okay then at the risk of coming under additional assault by the OP of the "are there lost games?" thread which may or may not have been pruned I'll go ahead and change the subject from pot shots at byuu

Golly! Ghost! is an electromechanical light gun arcade game from Namco. It uses a real physical model of a house in a shadow box over which raster graphics of ghosts are projected. It's a pretty neat effect if you ever get an opportunity to play it but unlike many other EM games (a whole preservation category in itself) its actually been approximated in MAME

(demo of mechanism) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLAJk_D20vg
(gameplay in MAME) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsGZjxYkk98

Now that alone is rare enough but Namco published a spinoff puzzle game for Windows called Golly! Ghosts! Goal! that had gone for many years without being available online and just last month, a copy was found and uploaded but as of right now no one has gotten the sound to work. It may be an issue with the disk image or it may be a compatibility issue. When I get a chance I may go down in my mancave and try to run it on my retro gaming computer

If any of you want to try to run it or just download a copy of a recently found game here's a mediafire link

http://www.mediafire.com/file/u98rsotwue72sxf/Golly%21+Ghosts%21+Goal%21.zip

There needs to be an all-in-one dumping machine that the common man can use. Something like the Retron 5 only less shit and more accurate with more support for obscure systems.

Until then preservation will never take off. And once it does happen we won't need crazy wackadoos who think their God's gift to earth by dumping shit and backing it up but then not sharing.

>>3832660
I didn't even think of Retron 5 when Anon was lamenting not knowing how to dump but sadly you're right that's definitely the cheapest easiest way to dump carts right now.

>>3832285
Wrong. The UPS responsible specifically called byuu and said they were doing it due to media coverage.

Hadn't he sperged, the package would've disappeared.

>>3832736
Or so he says

>>3831770
ooh nice

>>3831770
>So your opinion is basically that it's an organic process that doesn't really need any particular effort because the people that own games they love will just naturally want to dump them and share them, right?
Almost, except I mean I'm grateful we have anything at all. People do all this for free after all, from dumping to writing emulators. That's why I'm pissed off by people nitpicking emulation to death and endlessly complaining while reducing to contribute anything. They insist something "must" be emulated or preserved, but go forbid they do anything at all to help it.

>>3832736
Sauce?

>>3833039
What do you think the average Anon should be doing?

>>3833025
lol yeah the neo geo scene is basically insane

1) Store anything you which to preserve in a box
2) Stash said box into a dark, dry closet

Congratulations. You are now preserving your vidya in the most efficient way possible.

>>3833637
>What do you think the average Anon should be doing?
Whatever he wants to? How come a hobby should lay some responsibilities on anyone? I thought it was about enjoying games.
Anyway, I think we already have virtually of the enjoyable retro games dumped; most are translated too, and certainly they're perfectly playable (and I mean it—with a flashcart you get the perfect experience). What's there left to do? Pretty much only the unreleased games, the prototypes. But you either have them, or you don't.
This hobby reminds me a bit of music collectors. But with music, you can have different sounding album versions, live records, etc. With ROMs—not so much. So again I see no point in redumping all of those PAL ROMs for muh history/science (especially funded by others' donations).

Why are people so mad about byuu?

I mean, yeah, he seems pretty autistic, but that's ultimately easy to ignore. And higan is value he creates. It's not hard to use, it works, and you can use it if you want.

But it seems here on /vr/ people get triggered just because byuu cares about having some perfect rips.

>>3833671
Everyone hate's Byuu because He's asking for donations to get the ROMs, and then giving fuck all in return.

Checksums aren't that useful, and why redump all the games twice.
He also might be the only person to get the chance to dump some of those ROMs, so there's no way those checksums will ever be useful.

He also asked for a shitload of cash to scan SNES boxart to be made available for download, and then once he got it all, he sat on it.

>>3833868

He sounds like a faggot but he managed to scam you nerds so ha

>>3831669
What? Get real carts

>>3835642
Right but what's the ethical way to preserve the data on those carts beyond their physical life span? Especially if it's unique.

>>3832215
Yeah its not that simple. Isos are not good for game back ups

>>3835970
If you can make an ISO it's not really much of a step to make a bin/cue or raw dump instead. I just used a generic term since I was talking to a beginner.

>>3831669
To be "complete" it just needs to have every version of every released and unreleased Mario game and every shit unfinished hack of those games. If it has the same for Zelda it's considered "complete+++". To be considered complete without giant "laser" quotes it needs to include a shitty homebrew birthday card game that sold a few copies though a classified ad. The definition of "complete" covers a wide spectrum. Like the spectrum disorder related to it.

Ethically one should wash ones hands before holding undumped games one is never going to release to greedy self entitled little shits.

The more obscure consoles tend to have more complete sets. Probably because the library is small but also because the fantasy of doing a kickstarter to make millions off a kickstarter is even more delusional than with meme consoles.

>>3833868
Don't forget that Byuu is also bitching nonstop about resellers, when he is the one making rare games retardedly expensive, by bidding upwards $700 on yahoo japan for $5 titles.

>>3836932
Pretty biting commentary there. So would you go as far as to say that every /vr/ era game worth playing is already dumped and available for download at this point so there's actually no need whatsoever for anyone to be into preservation beyond at most romset hoarding just in case of tighter copyrighting in the future?

You guys figure the "Byuu Romset" will be on trackers someday, like a wired mamed-out version of nointro? Or will he seriously never leak this data

>>3837443
I think that the hashes will be built into Higan and you'll have to have roms that are "correct" to use it.

>>3837471
That's gonna be so weird. It's exactly the dividing line that keeps MAME unfun and console emulation breezy.

I'm all for it, the SNES is my favorite computer platform ever and I want it to be archived perfectly.

Just gonna be funny to see Higan spiral farther into more esoteric and unfriendly forms.

>>3832287
USPS has been known to be shit though. If you are accusing them of shit at the start, you aren't going to get far.

>>3836953
>biting commentary
True. I have no respect for dick measuring collectors or rom hoarding gimme gimme gimme brats.

Whether something is worth playing is entirely subjective, as is whether something is worth preserving. Even by my personal definition, which places a value of zero on prototypes of released games and shit like that, there's lots of stuff I'd like to see dumped and released. And I accept that some people want to see those prototypes to see the progress of development, cut content, etc. I also accept that someone who has something unreleased has no obligation to do anything with it.

I can only make a broad statement that both sides are just different types and varying degrees of autism. Far greater works have been and will be lost. In the big picture, in the distant future when the last backup of a Socks dump crumbles into dust I don't think the world will be a worse place because of it. And Socks is actually a decent, albeit very incomplete, game.

>>3837443
The hash database is here: https://preservation.byuu.org/

Making such a set would be pretty straightforward. Download a No-Intro set, recheck all the files with byuu's hashes, get fresh copies of the ones that don't check out.

You don't even have to do the last part, all the ones that don't check out are PAL versions which have 1 bit corrupt and that bit can be changed to make a correct file because it's the same as the US ROM.

Don't expect this to be a thing any time soon, though, because the PAL set still isn't even halfway done and he says it's gonna take him over 3 years to get through his JP collection.

>>3831770
the reason why the AF3 scam even worked was because there was evidence that an English AES release was planned and canceled, evidence which was corroborated by respected members of the community.

you can't just expect to walk into the neo scene with a magically unreleased AES game and except people to throw money at you. AF3 was a well-executed scam that only fell apart when the involved parties got too greedy.

>>3832017
>>3832095
he's clearly extremely paranoid, considering the lengths he goes to in order to hide his identity (even refusing to do as much as a voice interview), so it doesn't surprise me one bit that he refuses to release the ROMs to avoid possible litigation.

people keep saying he's a hoarder, but where's the evidence? if he was a hoarder, he'd have kept the USA SNES set instead of selling it once he'd dumped and scanned it. He would purchase the PAL set and keep it, instead of borrowing it. He'd plan to keep the SFC set, instead of reselling it once he's completed the dumps and scans.

"But-but data hoarder!", you say? He can download this shit from isozone, some of you are really reaching with this "hoarder" shit.

He's an autist who demands perfect data to perfect his emulator for perfect preservation. Why is this so hard to understand?

>>3833071
check Byuu's website

>>3833646
lolno, data and physical paraphernalia need to be dumped and scanned and stored on media with redundant backups and error-checking.

>>3837471
this won't happen.

look, can we stop talking about fucking byuu and talk about actual methods of preservation? for instance

- what is the best way to dump carts
- what is the best way to dump optical media
- what is the best way to store data once you have it on disk and avoid bitrot, corruption, or data loss?
- what is the best way to scan boards, documentation and packaging?

right now, all we have is an autist and a "game journalist" who uses a shitty Canon scanner, can we discuss actual legitimate techniques?

>>3837763
>- what is the best way to dump carts
Desolder the roms and read them out in a programmer.

Every other "how the console sees the data" question is a completely different question unrelated to dumping.

>what is the best way to dump optical media
Impossible to dump them 100% properly, best thing you can do is getting decent dumps of the main channels.

>what is the best way to store data once you have it on disk and avoid bitrot, corruption, or data loss?
Make a torrent and build up community interest. As long as people are interested, the data will be available that way, even if the original hdd you uploaded from is long dead.
Second best option is a RAID6 NAS.

>what is the best way to scan boards, documentation and packaging?

Scanner for paper. For boards, desolder everything, clean up all the solder to make the board completely flat, then use a decent scanner with a high depth of field (just in case).

>>3837763
I never accused him of being a data hoarder I just said that the easiest way to contribute to preservation isto be a data hoarder yourself especially na prolific torrent seeder. I AM curious how Byuu sells romsets while maintaining his anonymity though - does he sell them for bitcoin?

>>3837903
>desolder everything, clean up all the solder to make the board completely flat, then use a decent scanner with a high depth of field
wew is that how the discrete logic gets mapped for mame? That's crazy.

>>3837903
Why is it impossible to dump a CD?

>>3838138
>Why is it impossible to dump a CD?

It's a half assed standard that was designed with audio interpolation in mind to get around read errors. Then they piggybacked it with a lot of parity to make it possible to somewhat reliably store data on them.

On top of that, no consumer drive has ever allowed the level of access required to do low level reading.

You'd have to create your own drive, or just image the entire surface at 2000x level to be able to read everything somewhat accurately, and even then you cannot read every bit out properly due to manufacturing defects.

>>3838129
Byuu hasn't sold any ROM sets, he just sold the carts when he was done.

>>3837903
>RAID6 for data preservation
You want RAID1

>>3838182
>You want RAID1

RAID1 is a complete and total loss when you lose 2 drives.

>>3838185
That's RAID6

RAID1 makes a complete copy on every drive, so it keeps working down to the last drive.

RAID6 stripes the blocks across the drives with parity, but it can only handle the loss of 2 drives before the array is dead.

>>3838189
>That's RAID6

That's exactly what I said.

RAID6 can tolerate the fault of 2 drives, that you can replace, and keep your data intact. RAID1 is just a mirror, if 2 drives die, you are fucked. Also, RAID6 can keep working while you exchange dead drives, RAID1 needs to be pulled offline for rebuilding on a drive change.

RAID6 can also run faster, provided the right controller.

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>>3838197
Two drives dying will only fuck RAID1 if you only had two drives to start with

If I have a 5 drive RAID1 array and 4 of them die, then the array is still intact.

Yes, RAID6 gives you a higher storage capacity and faster speeds, but RAID1 is the most reliable.

>>3837903
is there a particular programmer you recommend, one which perhaps supports ROMs commonly used in retro games?

would you really trust the integrity of data like this to a torrent swarm? I've seen so many popular torrents go dead in an instant after leeches move on that I'd be terrified to do this.

an archive stored on RAID with ZFS (supplemented by an offline backup) in conjunction with a torrent seems like the ideal solution to me.

>>3838163
in other words, it's not impossible to dump a CD, it's impossible to dump a CD with true data integrity.

that's something we just have to accept, and with that in mind, what is *the best way* to dump a CD?

>>3838470
The Retrode is a pretty good dumper for most all carts, including GB/C, SNES, NES, N64, and Genesis.

>>3838521
Edit: No NES, but BennVenn has a NES dumper.

>>3838521
retrode won't actually dump the chips in the cart, it just dumps how the console sees them, and if they put any related protection then it won't do fuck all. There was that guy a few years back with the Lobo cart who couldn't dump it with one of them, for example.

Just get a programmer. You can get a Willem with an adapter for like $150 and it reads all common rom types.

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>>3840196
>have unique ptototype
>have amateur at best electronic skills
>desolder eprom containing literally irreplacable data
>smoke comes out
Now I hate to come back around to byuu but is he desoldering every rom from every cart that he dumps? Does he solder them back? Does he return them?

>>3838163
Are you excluding the drives in the consoles when you say "consumer drive"?

>>3838185
A common misconception

>>3840196
I remember those threads. There was this faggot who ranted for weeks about how you could dump any SNES cart from the connector and he was sure because he'd built dumpers by hand because his dad was electronics. When the guy with the lobo repro finally got a Super UFO it couldn't dump it. I think in the end the lobo lad smashed everything with a hammer because he spent all that money and didn't get his 15 minutes of fame for dumping the ROM.

I'm ethnic and have undumped ROMs. What should be my first course of action?

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>>3838163
>and even then you cannot read every bit out properly due to manufacturing defects.

If data on optical media couldn't be read reliably, every game on them would crash after a few seconds.

>>3837903
RAID is for redundancy, not backup. It's a common misconception regurgitated by retards.

>>3840635
>because only retards would want their backups to be redundant

>>3840630
>Because every read error crashes programs

What percentage of the time would you say people swallow your bullshit? When people just ignore you in real life do you honestly think it's because you "told" them?

>>3840658
>Because every read error crashes programs
Yes, that's usually what happens when you feed programs corrupt data because "you cannot read every bit out properly due to manufacturing defects".

>>3840658
>RAID = Fucked up / Fucked up
>Backup = Fucked up / Correct, Fucked up, Fucked up, Fucked up
Learn the difference.

>>3840635
RAID1 is still pretty good for data integrity.

If you have 8 HDDs in a RAID1 array, and 7 fail, then the data is still intact.
Do this with a offsite backup and it's pretty much guaranteed that you won't loose data.

>>3840882
>If you have 8 HDDs in a RAID1 array, and 7 fail, then the data is still intact.
Not necessarily. That's why nobody considers RAID a backup solution.

>>3840914
Here, since no one in this thread understands RAID1, I'll spell it out.

RAID1 copies the data across all HDDs in the array, so only one HDD is actually needed for data integrity.

It's like if you had a book, and then you made 4 more identical copies, then the original and 3 copies burned in a fire, you would still have one identical copy of the data.

>>3840635
To do complete backups I add a disk to a mirror set, let it update in the background and then remove it and store it off site. Sounds like you might not have a clue what you're talking about.

>>3840995
RAID1 doesn't even have parity. It would be more like if you had one book and you made 5 copies then dumped termites over all of them. You can still lend out 5 books, but there's no grantee every letter is in tact.

>>3841152
Offsite isn't RAID you dumbshit.

>>3840605
after the ufo didnt dump the cart i ended up selling it and it eventually made its way to someone who dumped it using a floppy copier. you can download the rom online now. i didnt pay much for it & i only got the cart to dump it, im happy with how things turned out.

>>3831669
how do you preserve handheld games

>>3840995
In theory you are right, in practice not so much.
RAID 1 has no data integrity in its raw state. You have 1+n mirror drives. This is for high availability NOT data integrity. You can rebuild the RAID so long as 1 drive remains functional.

The data this RAID now contains is a mirror of the last drive that didn't die. Correct data? Hmm, no way to know.

Don't believe me? 1+3 RAID 1 mirror set. 1 drive dies, new drive goes in and the set rebuilds from the remaining 3. Let's pretend you have your rebuild set to check every sector on every drive (your consumer stuff and software doesn't do this, it stripes for performance and a silent corrupt read will mirror shit data. Consumer drives had data corruption detection so weak that over a 4TB drive you can guarantee at least 1 corrupt read.) The rebuild stops because 1 drive has different data on 1 stripe than the other 2. So is the data on the 1 right or the data on the 2? Odds are 50/50. Why? Chances are equal that 1 drive just mirrored a corrupted stripe vs. 1 drive just corrupted a stripe.

RAID 5/6 by design requires data integrity. If anything fails a checksum the data can't be recovered and it has to reconstruct it from the redundancy. You will always get valid data back until the corruption spreads farther than 2 discs.

Finally, ZFS mirrors are the final answer to this. They are NOT RAID1, they are ZFS mirrors which act like RAID 1 but give you solid data integrity as well as uptime. BTRFS has the same shit.

>>3841168
>let my prove just how retarded I really am
A mirror set is RAID dumbshit. Obligatory 18+

>>3842124
>open spreadsheet
>change values to incorrect data
>save on RAID 5/6
>RAID 5/6 now has incorrect data
Where's your god now

>>3842147
>open spreadsheet
>change values to incorrect data
>save on RAID 5/6
>RAID 5/6 now has incorrect data
>Where's your god now

Nothing is idiot proof.
Computers do exactly what you tell them.

That's why offsite backups are a thing.

>>3841793
http://pica-pic.com/