Thoughts on Ted Woolsey?

super mario rpg is probably his best work tbqh

He sucks. Not a real translator.
The original Final Fantasy VI was not a cutesy game. Kefka was not a cutesy character.
For example in OP's pic, in the original Hiraganja it said:
"Mother fucking piece of shit! I will murder them! I will murder them mother fuckers! Fucking bitch ass whores!!! They have brought great dishonor to the Japanese culture! Fucking whores!"
That's why I only play literal translations so I can play games they were meant to be played.

>>3681792
LEL

>>3681794
ヒーーー くっそー!
このかりは必ず返しますよ!
Heeeee! Damn it!
I WILL repay this favor!

>>3681792
Oh Jesus I'm laughing while my chest muscles are fucked up from an entire day of vomiting. Fuck you Anon.

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>>3681792

Fucking A. Sums up this whole debate.

I didn't learn Japanese to care about translators.
Everybody should do the same.

>>3681798
>します
Even though he wants revenge, he still makes sure to be polite!

Woolsey was decent. he brought overall competency and smooth localization. his prose has a lighthearted style which was perfect for chrono trigger, but not so much ff6. where his work suffered, it was mainly because of being both rushed and censored. his greatest strength was naming things (war of the magi, espers, mystics, etc).

I'm not saying he's the greatest translator, but he doesn't deserve the bashing.

>>3681792
nice kek anon

>>3681792
And I desperately cling to censored translations from my childhood, and disagree with any valid criticism for these translations, no matter how wrong they are.

>>3681798

Google translate saves the day:

>Hero Costume!
>I will definitely return this debt!

>>3681862
>but not so much ff6

Im not so sure about that. I think the silly bits make the dark bits more palpable and Kefka wouldn't be half as memorable without some of the "Charm" Ted gave him.

Most Nip games are actually pretty fucking bland if you do a direct translation. Too much depends on cultural context, so if you want the original feel of the game, you might as well learn moon.

Good localization: FFIX.

>>3681887
Woolsey: "That magitech riding witch."
FFfan6969: "That magitek riding bitch."

Woolsey: "She sure is wild."
FFfan6969: "I bet she fucks like a tiger."

Woolsey: "I'm but a knight. Thou must understand my duty."
FFfan6969: "I am a knight. I have a duty. "

I'll stick with Woolsey.

>>3681776
I think his work is fine, but I don't entirely agree with the direction he might take a game in. Sometimes he makes a game far sillier than I think it needed to be.

With FF6, the story always struck me as a very bleak, emotional sort of thing. I know he's some kind of evil clown man but I could never take Kefka seriously as a villain because of the shit Woolsey had him say. Even after he ascends into godhood he was still spouting the same goofy shit, and I never bought him as a credible threat because I felt his lines clashed terribly with his final actions.

If nothing else, I can say I loved his work in Super Mario RPG because that game was a PERFECT fit for that tone in writing. The plot is silly, the characters are silly, and this was true for SMRPG no matter where you loved. His translation work meshed wonderfully because of that.

I guess the tl;dr is he's okay, but he does some games better than others. I can say I prefer the other scripts for FF6, at least.

>>3681932
>no matter where you loved

*lived, my bad

>>3681887
I disagree. I think the whole tone ff6 was going for was somber and baroque, and Woolsey's style clashed with that. it's a matter of opinion. I agree with >>3681932

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I don't give mind his translations, but I really fucking hate how he changed the names of things in CT for no reason like:
>changing Grandleon to Masamune
It's a fucking western longsword not a katana ffs

>>3681776
Sure is better than Victor Ireland and his hacks.

What do you guys think of the woolsey uncensored romhack?

>>3681985
It restores the Celes bitch slap in FFVI Advance, some booze references and makes the suicide leap scene more obvious.
I think it's unnecessary.

>>3682015
>>3681985
Oh wait it also includes bugfixes. I think that's cool.

>>3681940
>I think the whole tone ff6 was going for was somber and baroque

Well that's really where I think the levity makes it better. If the whole game is constantly morose the big morose moments don't stand out so much. You need to balance the darker elements with some light so we can actually get invested in the characters as humans instead of walking sacks of sorrow

Can you imagine that line today? People would freak out about how it's insensitive and offensive to people who's parents were killed in submarines.

>>3682242

Also marvel would sue

"Son of a sandworm" vs "Son of a submariner"

Which one?

>>3681781
How about no.

http://legendsoflocalization.com/culex-is-quite-different-in-japanese-super-mario-rpg/

He made some more than acceptable translations, but sometimes he's a bit too liberal with his translations.

Restructuring text into proper English grammar and changing culture-specific jokes and references to their closest American counterpart is what you should do, but stuff like "son of a submariner" is just silly.

What the fuck is a submariner anyways?

Used to like it

Then I grow up

I really hate localization that change the entire meaning of the actual games

From town names, character names and literal meanings
Fuck those guys

>>3681979
maybe this is Stockholm Syndrome, but I appreciate Ireland. maybe not for his translations, but for the fact that there were Western releases to translate. so many games would have never made it over here if not for Working Designs, and that deserves a lot of credit. Yes, his jokes were often terrible, and no, you should not be grateful when someone shits in your hand and calls it chocolate, but those were damn good translations. I will put up with the occasional terrible joke, if the rest of the game is treated with respect

>>3681820
Sounds like you're too afraid to translate material because then everyone would see you're inferior to those who do.

>>3682345
even as a kid, "submariner" took me out of the momemt. it is so awkward and nonsensical. I mean, what the hell is a submariner, and why would a desert castle bear any resemblance to a submarine? Why not an earthworm, or a mole, or something actually logical?

>>3682497
That's partly true. I don't translate stuff because I'm not interested in creative writing.
I don't think it would be worse than what got offered in my language.

The more important part is that translating takes a lot of time and effort that isn't needed when everybody can read for himself.

>>3681776
I feel Woolsey's translations are strong examples of the art of improving a game's script through localization.

Think about it this way: most game scripts are absolutely awful. When the translater comes along he or she serves as an additional editor for the work - an extra bout of manpower that the original script did not receive.

There are of course plenty of translations that are poor, but Woolseys is not one of them. The script is highly self-coherent, even though some characters like Kekfa have been 're-interpreted' - there's no reason to assume the original expressions in the script are inherent better. Considering the popularity of Woolsey's Kefka vs the lack of Kefka's popularity in Japan, it seems that his reinterpretation was fairly spot on if understood as a process of script refinement.

>>3681776
He makes some dumb lines but I think he does more good then bad. A lot have to realize he was often asked to translate entire scripts in a month or less then have most of his translation thrown away and simplified.

>>3682612

Well I just don't get the idea of making your villain a clown if you're not gonna make him funny

Though this could be one of those Ammano's art being fucking insane and not looking like the actual sprite thing

>>3682612
>When the translater comes along he or she serves as an additional editor for the work - an extra bout of manpower that the original script did not receive.

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. How would one feel if a translator of say, the Iliad, consciously reinterpreted Achilles or Hector for their audience at the cost of fidelity to the original text? This isn't an argument for literalism, but that ultimately the art of a translator is communicating the ideas and spirit of the original work in a way that is most receptive to the intended audience, not to act as a new editor. A translator's voice is important, of course, but his voice shouldn't drown out that of the original work. It is not their place to decide if their interpretation of a character is better or worse than the original.

I actually like Woolsey's takes on certain characters, like Kefka, Setzer, and Gestahl, but they really are reinterpretations rather than translations. It might be better to think of it as a revised work rather than a translation.

>>3682493
Nippon Ichi, jabbing the fourth wall since the beginning

>>3682493
Nippon should just use chinese.

>>3682612
Read the translation notes for the eroge Kamidori Alchemy Meister (Good game by the way, also a real timesink).

http://games.seiha.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=60&sid=0ecfa5ca754fac6b4f0bd793e887aa5a

Probably a candidate for gold standard in terms of translation quality, where it actually exceeds the original.

>>3682765
>the art of a translator is communicating the ideas and spirit of the original work in a way that is most receptive to the intended audience

Which is pretty much what Woolsey did. The way he reinterpreted Kefka, Setzer and Gestahl for example were the right calls for a receptive western audience.

Even if you look at what he did as a revision rather than a translation, it doesn't make the revision inherently inferior (unless you want to strongly adhere to a principle of 'purity').

Some people, for example, consider Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory movie (1971) to have better characterization than the original Roald Dahl novel. In the movie the protagonist Charlie is shown as a young boy with some moral flaws, but flaws he can overcome because of his overall goodness. The book on the other hand shows him as a bland morally perfect preteen. Script writers for the movie didn't believe that kind of characterization would work when exposed to the big screen, so they changed it. But you could also take the purity perspective that they have 'sullied' Dahl's work, but I personally disagree.

>>3681792
>Hiraganja

noice.

>>3682813
The 2005 film is superior to both.

>>3682238
true, but there's a difference between baroque and flat out emo. also, you can inject some light or humor without straining credibility by using off the wall lines. but like I said, it's subjective.

>>3682813
>The way he reinterpreted Kefka, Setzer and Gestahl for example were the right calls for a receptive western audience.
No they weren't. If he wants to change shit, he should become a writer and not a translator.

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>>3682848
I recall Albedo getting quite a bit of praise for being a disturbing fucked-in-the-head murdering sadistic pedophile.

>>3681776
>Thoughts on Ted Woolsey?
great translator, great guy

>>3682848
>he should become a writer and not a translator.
His job was not a translator, but a localizer. . It was to make the game popular for western audiences. He succeeded.

>>3682861
> western audiences.
Why can't you just say Americans? Why pretend they represent half of the globe?

>>3682861
Localizing = white washing = active deliberate erasure of another culture = racism

>>3682861
localizing definitely gives you more leeway to alter the script than just translating.

>>3682503
>even as a kid, "submariner" took me out of the momemt. it is so awkward and nonsensical. I mean, what the hell is a submariner, and why would a desert castle bear any resemblance to a submarine?

umm...maybe a castle that can dive deep into sand???

>>3682881
>SUB
>Under
>MARINE
>Water
>MIDDLE OF THE DESERT
>Not water

>>3682881
a submariner pilots a submarine.

and it's not supposed to make sense. Woolsey wanted to get across that Kefka was cursing without having him curse or use #%$&. so, he inserted a nonsense word while using alliteration.

>>3682898
it's literary license and probably a reference to the great sand sea in north africa

woolsey is just too deep for weebs

>>3682612
I think that a lot of the people who complain about a handful of FF6's lines "going too far" just flat out ignore the fact that the Japanese script is incredibly dry. For every bad line in the Woolsey script, there are probably 20 that are more flavorful or provide more characterization for the main cast.

>>3683019
Do you have a degree in Japanese?

Tina or Terra?

Mash or Sabin?

Which do you prefer?

>>3683424
the point of Tina/Terra was that she had an exotic sounding name. to the Japanese, Tina is exotic, but it sounds ordinary to us. therefore, her name was changed to Terra. I think this was a pretty good decision - this is an example of how changing the letter of the work can help it fit the spirit of the work.

>>3681792
at the same time American liked American Kefka and Japanese hated Japanese Kefka

so it was probably for the best

>>3681776
Kefka was his greatest success along with SMRPG, in all of Kefka's future appearances he's Woosley Kefka as opposed to muh literal and truthful Japanese Kefka. Everything else is meh.

>>3682354
>a pointless difference in dialogue in an optional boss battle that ultimately adds nothing to the game in any meaningful way
Who the shit gives a fuck?

>>3682493
Weaboos BTFO

>>3682354
From the exact article you linked to:
>Given the drastic differences I’m sure a lot of thought was put into it the localization choices here – I’d be curious to find out what the specific decision making process was for this part.

>>3681792
>The original Final Fantasy VI was not a cutesy game. Kefka was not a cutesy character.

Nintendo of America does not allow games which are not cutesy. Given that context, he did his job well.

Japanese video games aren't worth literal translations, because the Japanese don't have any unique or interesting ideas. Japanese people can't write.

>>3683804
Holy shit, THIS.

Notice how other languages never seem to invite these kinds of arguments; no one is debating whether Fagle's translation of the Iliad is "too literal", or which translation of The Brothers Karamazov "takes too many liberties."

Only Japanese media seems to have this problem. If Japanese people knew how to write meaningful ideas, we wouldn't have to compromise between "good" translations and "accurate" translations. Literal translations are always boring and soulless, because the Japanese themselves are boring and soulless.

>>3683828
>Notice how other languages never seem to invite these kinds of arguments; no one is debating whether Fagle's translation of the Iliad is "too literal", or which translation of The Brothers Karamazov "takes too many liberties."
do you even /lit/?

>>3683828
lol this is blatant bullshit. first of all, >>3683838

secondly, the Japanese have expressed tons of stuff, including the first critically acclaimed novel, the tale of genji.

thirdly, Japanese is a very context-based language, and is thoroughly different from English. translating between japanese and english means bridging a wide gulf, which is not the case between romance languages or between english and german. therefore, a jp/en translator has more room for interpretation.

fourth, this is about video game scripts. traditionally video games have been seen as kids toys and a trifling medium that is not worthy of the same creative effort as books and films. therefore, you're going to get scripts that are simply passable rather than held to a high standard.

fifth, and finally, these arguments also center around fan translations. with this particular genre, you get people who are obsessive fans, and have way more enthusiasm than common sense, which leads to things like excessive literalism and overcompensating for censorship with risible gaffes.

>>3683890
>muh tale of genji

Over a thousand years of English literature and this is all japs have to offer? Japs can't write.

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>>3683890
>secondly, the Japanese have expressed tons of stuff, including the first critically acclaimed novel, the tale of genji.
hahahaha

>>3683920
there's much more, especially from the early modern and modern eras. keep in mind that historically, most educated people in east asia wrote in Chinese.

oh I forgot to mention, my sixth point: in every translation, there is a give or take between accuracy and sounding natural in the target language. that's not specific to japanese in any way.

>>3683930
lol, you're not gonna rustle me that easily.

>>3681776
As long as you like fanfiction, he's alright.
More or less on the same level of Vic Ireland and all the other hacks like O'Smith and the guy who localized MGS.

He's probably that one guy who legitimated those who call themselves "creative translators", so to speak, people who would get laughed at in any other media sector other than videogames or sunday cartoons and can't find any other professional position due to their crippling incompetence.
Then again, it's not like people care about translations in the first place, as long as they get their "character development" and "enhanced scripts" it's alright, japanese is a shitty dry language after all and nothing good has ever come out of that place.

>>3682863
>Why pretend they represent half of the globe?

Because no matter how you much pretend the UK just doesn't matter in regards to the game industry.

>>3683828
>>3683828
> no one is debating whether Fagle's translation of the Iliad is "too literal"
Right, no one ever calls the Fagles translation "too literal", that's what people call the Lattimore translation. The Fagles translation takes a good amount of liberties to make it more readable to the modern ear and uses a meter scheme so loose that the result is practically prose, all so that college babbies have an easy time with it.

>or which translation of The Brothers Karamazov "takes too many liberties."
I admit it, you had me for a while. 7/10 bait post, pretty obvious but it still took a while to click.

>>3683890
>the first critically acclaimed novel, the tale of genji.
First critically acclaimed novel? Hell, first novel, period.

>>3683828
You have clearly never read anything about translations in general, period. Try reading, say, Le Ton Beau de Marot or something.

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>>3684250
>first novel

>not the Bible

>>3681792
>hiraganja
WOOOOOOLSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY!

>>3684450
Did Homer's Odyssey predated it?

>>3684605
Yes.

Odyssey and Iliad aren't novels though. They were written in poetic meter, not prose.

>>3681792
subtle

>>3684250
possibly, there might be some undiscovered papyrus scroll with an older story. I was playing it safe.

I'm not an expert on this, you can just wiki japanese literature.

>>3684250
Not only that, it was also possibly the first historical example of bildungsroman before the genre even existed, it's good stuff, wish I could read the original text instead of the adaptations but old japanese is pretty complex.
>>3684450
The Bible was literally the first LN, a bunch of inconsequential, pretentious and chuuni shit with loads of badly written spinoffs that contradict each other, magic, shonenshit like David VS Goliath, loads of haremshit, the obligatory DEEP chapters like the Ecclesiastes, Solomon being a Gary Stu and all the rest.

It is a masterpiece, why the japanese never made an anime or videogame about it is beyond me.
The New Testament is is just not as hardcore.

>>3684870
There are several anime directly adapting the bible, including one by Tezuka himself.

>>3682493
That statue has some nice tits.

>>3684870
I don't recall many bibles having illustrations other than the Good News Bible

>>3684887
Ryoji Majima was in charge of the character designs for Rhapsody and La Pucelle, as well as some other games, which explains everything.

>>3684045
Woolsey doesn't go nearly that far. Yeah, there was kefka, but he did make sure the plot is of the same damn game at least.

>...I guess your "abilities" would be a distant third

>>3681776
He was the hero this market didn't deserve.

>>3684870
>it's good stuff, wish I could read the original text instead of the adaptations but old japanese is pretty complex.

Classical Japanese is different enough so that even the Japanese read it with annotations.

which translation of the tale of genji would you recommend?

>>3684887
it sure does.

>>3682647
He was supposed to be a weird drag-queen type, I thought. Not so much a clown, but just a weird dude who got fucked in the head from the magitek infusion process.

>>3685217
>Classical Japanese is different enough so that even the Japanese read it with annotations.
What language has remained the same for a thousand years?

>>3685252
true, it's not an exception by any means.

I don't care how many liberties are taken, with the translation, as long as gameplay stays the same. Japanese writing isn't worth preserving because Japanese people can't write.

>>3685252
No language has remained identical, but some have changed less than others. English from 800 years ago is basically gibberish to a modern English speaker (if you don't believe me, look up Beowulf in the original, or for that matter even Sir Gawain and the Green Night), whereas Icelandic speakers can basically understand the old Norse sagas with about as much difficulty as we can read Shakespeare.

A lot of criticism of translators taking liberties start from the point of believing the original writer was 100% competent and good.

This is rarely the case. Anybody who has worked on a game knows that design, production, even QA offer corrections that make it to the final work, because the writers are often hacks.

You don't keep a job as a videogame writer because you are a fantastic writer, you keep it because the idea you put forward eventually turns out really well, nobody dies and you receive 100% praise in the event the game wins awards.

>>3685314
That's one of the worst argument for "liberal" (shit) translations and it's used all the time despite not making one lick of sense.
"The original writing is shit so it gives me the right to rewrite the game." No, it doesn't. "Improving" the writing is not the job of a translator, and your subjective opinion about the wrting quality (sensible or not) doesn't mean you're free to add memes because you find the tone too dry or change the character personalities and whatnot.

>>3685353
The question is, what's the translator's job in the case of a video game: to carry over the original meaning into a new language, or to produce text that makes for a clear, fun play experience? That the former is part of it I fully agree, but you've not established any convincing argument for the idea that it's always the former exclusively even at the expense of the latter.

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>>3685314
>A lot of criticism of translators taking liberties start from the point of believing the original writer was 100% competent and good.
>I don't think writer X is good so the translator has the right to change the text because I say so.

Am I really supposed to argue with you when you pull off such idiotic non sequitur hoping people would take you seriously?
This place is getting worse faster than I've thought.

>>3685353
>"Improving" the writing is not the job of a translator

Now hold on a fucking second. Guys like Woolseys are not "translators". You know who a translator is? A kind of guy who travels around with Putin when he visits Chinese officials on a diplomatic mission - where each word has to be accurately translated from Russian to Chinese and back with no mistakes allowed.

Woolsey was a localizer, not a translator. He can do whatever the fuck he wants with the script to make it more palatable for the local audience. He did a great job, everybody except weebs love his scripts.

>>3685406
That's an interpreter.

>>3685487
Alright. Translator is the one that deals with written diplomatic correspondence, not the spoken word. Point is, they aren't allowed to deviate.

Localizers can deviate.

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At Half-Price Books a while back they happened to have to copies of the Azumanga Daioh! Omnibus: A newer one, and a yellowed one that was clearly an older release. The older one was funnier. Its jokes had more spice. The newer one read and felt like a direct translation, which for comedy just does not work.

5 Centimeters Per Second had two releases. The Japanese licensor said the first release was a 'good piece of entertainment' but changed too much and was re-done a year or two later. I found the latter a little more boring, but they were trying to take the story as seriously as possible and I've met people who've preferred each one over the other.

A direct translation saps a lot of personality and subtlety out of characters. A good localizer can put it back, or make the character interesting to a new audience. A bad localizer will just add memes.

tl;dr Woolsey did more good than harm. The games would have been less accessible, and less memorable. Without him we wouldn't have 'spoony bard'

As a translator it is not your role to be a creator and "put your own unique and interesting spin on things". Your only job is to take the words that were said in one language and translate them EXACTLY into the target language. No "localizing for the target market" or "improving the bad parts of the script". The quality of the writing is not your concern. Writing anything other than a direct, 100% accurate, basically machine translation, is artistically corrupt.
This isn't such a problem for me personally since I know Japanese enough to play games now, but it's not like I can learn every language in the whole world so it is always going to be an issue in some way. The number of translated games that actually say what the original writer wrote, instead of some American failed writer's "creative localization", is sadly extremely low.

>>3685498
>Without him we wouldn't have 'spoony bard'
Woolsey didn't work on FFIV. It was released before he worked for Square.

>>3685498
Accessibility is when you add ramps for a cripple.

>>3685527
You have to be borderline autistic to enjoy a direct translation of a comic strip

>>3685512
I will say that a bad translation has less of a chance of being unplayable, compared to a bad localization. There's a very low floor for localizations.

However, there's also a low-ish ceiling for direct translations. Many players will not play a game in its original Japanese, so everything you see in the language and apply to translations you see later isn't neccessarily there for the general audience. I would ask you to play a game with a good translation, then play the orginal, and see how the localizers had to work around the cultural barriers

>>3685498
If you get the newer version, it's not funny.
If you get the older version, you're not reading Azumanga Daioh.
The only way to win is to learn Japanese.

>>3685498
On that note, Sgt. Frog was heavily changed due to cultural differences and still managed to be funny. I would also count Samurai Pizza Cats, but they didn't have a script to translate in the first place

>>3685498
>The older one was funnier. Its jokes had more spice. The newer one read and felt like a direct translation, which for comedy just does not work.
How can you tell since you don't know japanese?
Your appeal to feelings doesn't matter, nor make the argument against precise translations any more convincing or sound.
>A direct translation saps a lot of personality and subtlety out of characters.
No, by definition it does not, you just have to know both languages really well, which a lot of localizers do not, hence you get those atrocious rewrites.

What's really funny about all the critics against "direct" translations is that since you evidently don't know japanese you don't know that the actual games' scripts are hardly difficult to translate properly, what you fail to understand is that localizers, and a lot of fantranslators too, deliberately "translate" even very simple sentences or even words wrong, even when there's no cultural barrier at all, that's why Zell eats hotdogs in the localized version of FFVIII when in the japanese game he simply eats bread.

If you did know japanese, or any language other than English you'd know such a simple fact, and let's not forget all those localizations that actually cut whole sentences from the games for no reason.
Again, you're free to like your rewritten garbage but you can't defend it this way or tell other people with higher standards that people like Woolsey or Vic Ireland did a great job, you either lack intellectual honesty or you're a complete simpleton if you think there's just "localizations" and what you try to pass as "direct" translations.
Good, direct translations do exist, whether you like the text's content is up to you, that's the author's burden, not the translator's, the translator's job is to convey the original meaning as closely and precisely as possible, preserving the message is a moral imperative, localizers are not bothered by this because most players are tools who don't know any better.

>>3685559
>How can you tell since you don't know japanese?
They were funnier to me, because I can't read Japanese

>preserving the message is a moral imperative
Yes, but preserving the exact text is not. That's why rice balls became 'donuts' in Pokemon. Kids know what donuts are. You don't want them hung up on details. You want them to enjoy the show.

Most manga these days have translator notes to try and split the difference. Manga has a format that allows you to slow things down and explain other cultures. Video games and anime do not.

>>3685512
>but it's not like I can learn every language in the whole world so it is always going to be an issue in some way
What languages where retro games written in?
English, Japanese, French, German, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Russian, Polish.Maybe Italian or the Nordic languages.
Overall English and Japanese will cover the vast majority and you may add one of the others to cover a niche.

>>3685498

Like when Mixx did their version of Sailor Moon and all of the dialogue was a sloppy, disjointed mess and Usagi (Or Serena if you damn well please, whoever.) was called "Bunny" because "MUH LITERAL TRANSLATION is the only right one!"

>>3685582
I'm in the minority on this one. I prefer Serena and Darien because it sounds like a chessy Harelquin romance novel, but the manga translation kept their original names, so Serena isn't really considered canon like Ash Ketchum is. What a shame.

>>3685582
Bunny isn't a literal translation of Usagi as a proper noun, the direct translation would still be Usagi. Sounds more like bad localization than anything else.

>>3685571
>That's why rice balls became 'donuts' in Pokemon.
What do visuals have to do with text?
If anything it's even more tragic that you visually have to change things, it's the death of communication when you forcefully change a visual media to adapt it to your closed vision of the world.
>You don't want them hung up on details.
Yeah, heaven forbid if the kids learn something new.
I guess we should also make astronauts eat jelly filled donuts in space on tv shows because kids don't know what astronauts eat in space.

Seriously, this whole website has become such a joke.

>>3682848
What you're saying assumes that localizers act on their own against the developers.
I find that incredibly naive.

We're talking Squaresoft here. They were selling millions of copies. They knew what they were doing, they were who they were hiring, and they knew what the people they hired did.

If you think is a literate translation is closer to what "the devs intended", then I say, the devs clearly intended YOU, the American audiance, to play Woosley's localizations, which was more targeted to suit the tastes of that audiance.

You can't seriously think the "liberties" taken were not intended.
Take FFIX for example, in which some characters can change quite a bit depending on the language you play it in, each translation team was composed of 2 translators, a native Japanese and a person native to the target language.

You can't blame Woosley for doing the job he was asked for. It's true that these days, the different localizations aren't as different, but that's mostly due globalization of culture. In the 90's, Squaresoft wasn't even releasing most of their FF games in the US, and none (until FF7) in Europe, because they thought of the cultural barrier, hence why localizations would be heavier.

>>3685590
holy shit stop being so weebautistic.

>>3685582
iirc Usagi was indeed called Bunny in the French localization of Sailor Moon, but I might be wrong (it's been 20 years).

>>3685586
It's not such a bad localization that you might think, since it explains why there are rabbit shaped/styled crap all around in the show in scenes featuring her exploits / bedroom. I mean, if she is named as Serena or Usagi, then you wouldn't understand why they use a bunny shaped scene transition when they are about to show her doing something.

>>3685597
If he was a weeb he would be saying that we should play the Japanese translations of English-language games because muh superior nipponese culture.
How the fuck is arguing against excessive localization/censorship weeaboo? It's applicable to any language, it just so happens that almost all /vr/ games translated into English are Japanese. It has nothing to do with Japan specifically.

>>3685603
>>iirc Usagi was indeed called Bunny in the French localization of Sailor Moon, but I might be wrong (it's been 20 years).
Bunny Rivière to be exact.
In the German one she was Bunny Tsukino while the others kept the original Japanese names.

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>>3685597
>I can't come up with a good point so I'll call him a weeb
>And an autist
>That will show him
Go see your doctor for that anal prolapse of yours.

>>3685559
>HURR just learn japanese, guys
weabo retard

>>3685603
It takes a few seconds to point out that Usagi means Bunny. Of course that doesn't lapin because unwarrented punnery carrot stand!

>>3685618
Again, this has nothing to do with Japan specifically, it's a matter of practicality. If 90% of worthwhile retro games were made in Croatian rather than Japan then people would be suggesting you learn Croatian instead. And then what meme buzzword would you be using to describe them when you don't have an argument?

>>3685616
Only a weabo would give a shit about this argument in the first place.

>>3685632
Croatibo.

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>>3685618
>>3685634
Trying too hard here.

>>3685632
>>3685636
Back in the day we called it Serbocroatian.

>>3685632
slavaboo, duh

>>3685632
I wonder how many players refuse to play games in English and play crappy translations in their native language instead?

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>>3685571
>Actually defending "jelly donuts"
I've seen some shit, but godDAMN...

>>3685518
And even then it's actually correct.

Woolsey probably would've done something different.

>>3685571
Or they could've just said "rice ball" and not be racist

>>3685737
>And even then it's actually correct.
It isn't. I personally like the line, but it's not right.

English:
Tellah: You swindler!
Edward: Please listen!
Tellah: You spoony bard!
Edward: Please!
Tellah: Shut up!
Edward: Listen!
Tellah: Shut your mouth!
Edward: I...I...
Anna: Please stop!

Japanese:
きさま よくも むすめを….
(I'll never forgive you for what you've done to my daughter...)
ちがいます!
(No, it isn't what you think!)
なにが ちがうと いうのだ!
(How is it not what I think!?)
はなしを きいてください!
(Please, hear me out!)
えーい、だまれえ!
(Ugh, just shut up already!)
おねがいです!
(Please!)
このいたみ アンナのいたみ….
(This pain is Anna's pain...)
アンナとは….
(Anna is...)
おねがいっ! ふたりとも やめてっ!
(Please! Both of you, stop this!)

>>3685512
>Your only job is to take the words that were said in one language and translate them EXACTLY into the target language.
>Writing anything other than a direct, 100% accurate, basically machine translation, is artistically corrupt.
I will translate what you just said into (natural-sounding) Esperanto:
>Al vi estas nur unu tasko: Vi traduku la vortojn diritajn el unu lingvo kaj al alia, la cellingvo, PRECIZE.
>Ĉio, kio ne estas rekta, cent-procente ĝusta, pli-malpli maŝina traduko, estas, de arta perspektivo, korupta.
And here's a completely literal back-translation:
>To you is only one task: You translate the words said out one language and to other, the goal-language, EXACTLY.
>Everything, what no is direct, hundred-percently right, more-less mechanical translation, is, of art perspective, corrupt.

So what's a good translation for FFVI?

>>3685994
Just play the original. There's no problems other than silly nitpicking. /vr/ is more autistic than /v/ and /vg/ combined, be very careful of any recommendations made for translations, otherwise you'll just end up wasting time over absolutely nothing.
When it comes to RPG's, play the original, then try a re-translation afterward just to see what all the fuss and autism is about.

>>3685994
The US SNES localization was not only excellent for the time period, but it still holds up quite well.

I think a lot of people are overlooking a major difference between translating a video game and translating a book. In the case of works like The Iliad or The Brothers Karamazov, there are a huge number of translations available on the market today which people actively weigh against one another to their preferences in both fidelity to the original source and on artistic merit. P/V might be the currently fashionable translator for Dostoevsky, but there are fairly vocal groups of readers that prefer other translations. You can bet that there's going to be another translation of it in a few years time to address complaints everyone has.

In contrast, this culture of translation just doesn't exist for video games. They're generally made with the goal of having a large commercial appeal, and the translations used will reflect that. Localizations and sometimes heavy amounts of creative interpretations, at levels that would be completely condemned in translating literature, allow the product to reach the largest audience possible. The game isn't approached by the translator as an artistic work, but as a product to be sold to a market. And in general, this is probably the correct way to approach it since the game was made to be a product and not a work of art. Essentially, it's just a game. It has no aspirations to be taken seriously so you shouldn't do so.

>>3681913
This is honestly why I can't stand a lot of fan translations. Moments of unnecessary swearing, and dialogue that lacks personality. Its like the fan translators are autistic edgelords.

>>3686067
>When it comes to RPG's, play the original, then try a re-translation afterward just to see what all the fuss and autism is about.
Wouldn't he also have to read the other translations, particularly this Woolsey one, as well?

>>3685593
>Take FFIX for example, in which some characters can change quite a bit depending on the language you play it in,

examples?

One change that bothered me was Setzer's line when joining the team.

SNES: "The Empire's made me a rich man."
vs.
GBA: "The Empire's been bad for business."

The original made it seem like Setzer was taking a gamble by joining, but the new translation made it seem like he really had no choice. Not saying that the new was less accurate, but it just seemed to fit better originally. Can you speak to the thinking behind this change?
TS: It may have made Setzer appear to be making a more dramatic and nobler transformation, but that was a mistranslation in the original English script, plain and simple. The expression used in Setzer's Japanese line is an idiomatic one, shoubaiga agattari, meaning "business has dried up." Setzer is beginning to reveal that he has no personal love of the Empire, acknowledging that it has been hurting him financially. Celes jumps on this first sign of receptiveness to their appeal, saying literally "It's not just you," and encouraging him to think about all of the other people who are likewise suffering at the hands of the Empire.

My guess is that the original translator was not familiar with the idiom and translated it literally, assuming it meant business had "gone up," or improved, rather than "evaporated." That was a rather major departure from what was intended there, however, and presumably a wholly unintentional one on the part of the translator. So, there was really very little in the way of a thought process there. I recognized the mistake for what it was and corrected it.

>>3686141
>but as a product to be sold to a market.
And books aren't, right?
I guess I forgot that Joyce, Shakespeare or Tolstoj lived on oxygen and didn't want money for their books.
Art sure isn't a commercial product like any other, no sir, Michelangelo made the Sistine Chapel for free, so did Bernini with his statues, artists are ethereal beings with no interest in earthly problems such as eating and needing a shelter.
And who can forget about Mozart, doing all those great plays and music for free?

Fucking imbecile.

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>>3687185

>>3681798
>>3681776
He originally tanslated it as "Son of a Bitch!" but was told to change it.

>>3687185
in the arts, there are different impulses: art for the sake of art, and commercial appeal. that's why you get all these debates with the purists arguing that more popular art is watered down and the lowest common denominator, and the casuals arguing that the purists are a bunch of elitist, hipster tryhards.

ideally, art should fulfill both of those impulses. historically there was more patronage of the arts, and a number of the artists you mentioned had noble patrons. with patronage, artists are economically supported while encouraged to produce their best work for patrician tastes.

in the modern era, economic rewards for art usually come from widespread commercial appeal. therefore, for artists who want to make money, their work is dictated by broad tastes, which often means making their work simpler or more accessible. if you're making video games for kids to play, that also means imposing censorship so that people won't worry about "video games corrupting the youth", which is something I remember from back in the day.

Eh, FF6 was a decent translation. You can blame Nintendo for the censorship in the game, wasn't Ted's fault.

You want to see an example of a shit translation, go play Illusion of Gaia.

>>3687239
Most of the best art ever created (like the classical stuff) was done for commercial reasons.

Conversely, most of the worst art ever created (modern art) was done for the sake of art.

Keep that in mind.

>>3687274
that's true, that's why I said following both impulses (commercial and ideal) is best.

as I said, classical is so good because, while it was made for commerce, it was patronized by the elites who wanted the best, most refined aesthetic. guys like Mozart worked for royal courts, not the commoners. the plebs had no say, but at the same time, the aristocrats made sure that it stayed good and didn't get "experimental".

pure commercialism leads to crassness. pure idealism leads to the epic fail that is modern art, which is the closest real life analogue to "the emperor's new clothes" that I know of.

>>3687239
>artists are economically supported while encouraged to produce their best work for patrician tastes.
It's the same thing that happens today, especially for videogames, only that your patron is your CEO that sells your stuff to the masses. Patrons in the past did the same thing, art was mostly a mean to either make personal propaganda or impress others, both lead to monetary gains for the patron anyway, so the difference in purpose is largely irrelevant, any form of personal gain was put before artistic desire with next to no historical exceptions. Ariosto wrote the Gerusalemme as a piece of pseudohistorical propaganda for his patron, Dante did the same with the Commedia, classical music and even a lot of classic theatre and opera was in the hands of the clergy and so on.
>if you're making video games for kids to play
If you're making videogames for kids the necessity for censorship shouldn't even be on your mind in the first place, the problem that thin skinned morons or fanatical nutjobs exist is a universal problem that also hit most of the great artists in the past, especially painters and sculptors who were either forced to censor their works or they got it alterated after they delivered it, the catholic church was the first and foremost example of this practice.

There's zero difference between what you call art and videogames, art is what people make of it in the first place, videogames do not deserve an inferior treatment or mentality than any other craft, any and all art is made for monetary purposes or any other form of personal gain, make no mistake, the naive thought of art for the sake of art is only something pretentious morons try to believe in.

This whole thing of videogames not being art is the same tripe that was said about cinema and movies back in the first years of the 20th century, making the same stupid mistake of those intellectuals closed in their ivory towers is not something you or anybody else can afford.

>>3681850
>Even though he wants revenge, he still makes sure to be polite!
That was on purpose - on the original script, Kefka mixed polite and rude speech.

>>3687341
I wasn't trying to argue that video games can't be art. maybe I came across the wrong way.

video games can definitely be art, and anyone who disagrees is making the mistake of dismissing a new genre simply because it is new, just like the people who claimed that film isn't art, or jazz isn't art, or comic books aren't art, etc.

you're right, there are many examples of censorship, that too is not unique to games.

I'm also not arguing that video games are an inherently inferior medium in any way.

what I'm saying is that historically, there was more of an emphasis on quality than mass appeal. the Church commissioned works of art to glorify God, and more importantly to glorify itself as a better alternative to Protestantism. the aristocrats who supported classical music demanded high quality above all.

in the modern era, art is usually patronized by a much broader audience than in the past (although there are exceptions to this). the economic concern is moving large amounts of units, rather than enlisting the support of a rich patron. this alters the dynamics of art.

and so, not just video games, but also music (top 40/pop music being a prime example), film, and other genres are influenced by a greater emphasis on mass appeal.

>>3685402
Not him, but this isn't a non sequitur. His reasoning boils down to

1. No writer is 100% competent.
2. Work quality depends mainly on the writer's competence.
3. Translation can sometimes improve the original work, specially if it takes liberties.
Those together mean any work can be improved in the translation.

Now, here's the [subjective] catch: what's more important - quality or fidelity?

>>3687353
>mixed polite and rude speech.
interesting - that definitely helps characterize him.

I've heard that edgelords on 2chan sometimes do the same thing.

>>3687239
>that also means imposing censorship so that people won't worry about "video games corrupting the youth"
One of the biggest breakthroughs in RPGs came from that. Instead of removing everything that could be conceived bad, Lord British made a game that emphasized positive behavior and the rest is history.

>>3687371
Yup. However, since English has no keigo, you can't use this to convey he's mad... you need to use weird expressions like "son of a submarine". So in a sense, Woolsey took liberties translation-wise to keep the character itself more faithful.

>>3687382
another point in favor of Woolsey. as I've looked into his work, I've been impressed. not that he was perfect, but he was quite competent and undeserving of scorn.

>>3687382
English might not have keigo, but we certainly have rude/polite phrasing, or formal/informal phrasing. We can come up with level-mixing examples like:
>If it's not too much trouble, would you please get the fuck out?
>Your Honor, dude, I am, like, totally ready to address the court, if it please you.

>>3687414
Mixing registries like that in English usually conveys irony; it makes the discourse extra-rude, not insane.

>>3687428
Maybe mix very proper, formal English with dialect? Like, "He ain't gonna eat his heart out over thine own iniquity".

>>3687185
You're taking that line out of context to create a strawman. It didn't say that "books and painters were true art, not a commercial product!", but that translators approach certain media as "artistic" and others as "commercial", and as a result there isn't the same associated culture of translation between books and games, making comparing the two difficult.

>>3687502
>It didn't say that "books and painters were true art, not a commercial product!"
Oh yeah?
Let's read a bit further.
>And in general, this is probably the correct way to approach it since the game was made to be a product and not a work of art. Essentially, it's just a game. It has no aspirations to be taken seriously so you shouldn't do so.

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>>3681776
he's not as bad as the DQ guy I guess

>>3687525
"Video games are made with the primary intention of being sold to a mass audience rather than artistic merit" ≠ "All works of art were made without any commercial intention whatsoever"

Don't distort and hyperbolize statements just to prove your "games are art" crusade.

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>>3687595

Slattery was better. Nostalgiafags be damned.

>>3687714
How so?

>>3682503
A submariner is another word for a crew member of a submarine.

>>3685989
Underrated post.

>>3681979
>Sure is better than Victor Ireland and his hacks.

Woolsey and Ireland were both great. they wanted the games to be accessible and fun. period. the writing is the worst the in psp version of lunar without the working designs staff. you don't know what you're talking about.

>>3683424
Sabin

>>3683424
Terra > Tina, Sabin > Mash
Cayenne > Cyan though

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>>3684870
>It is a masterpiece, why the japanese never made an anime or videogame about it is beyond me.

>>3688838
Thank you.

>>3685994
www.romhacking.net/hacks/1386

>>3681945
It was supposed to sound foreign and exotic

Thats why it got weebed, and it worked

>>3686321

Something similar can be said about /vr/. And the rest of 4chan, for that matter.

>>3691882

I have no idea what a Grandleon is, so that sounds even more exotic to me. (I had already encountered a masamune in the final Fantasy series.)

>>3682765

Well what if somebody translated Twilight to Japanese, but replaced it in the process with a really well-written story that was only superficially similar to the original. I mean yeah, a Japanese person coming to that with the specific intention of experiencing the American Twilight would be poorly served by it. But a Japanese person just wanting a good story would be better off with that "translation" than with a more honest one.

When the original work was bad, redoing parts of it can help a lot.

>>3682872

Well anyway it comes down to the fact that these were toys for kids, more or less--I mean they were taking seriously on some level by their adult creators, but on other levels they were not. They were products for sale, not necessarily sacred objects. The guy wasn't being paid by dedicated scholars to prepare an ancient work of literature for a museum. He was just a regular dude being paid to throw some crap together and ideally not ruin anything in the process. The fact that he cared at all makes him laudable.

>>3685353

If original text is so sacred to you then don't post on a board where threads are automatically deleted.

You're just being a silly prescriptivist. There's nothing inherently superior OR inferior about the idea that a translator ONLY translates. It could be good in one case and bad in another, to only translate. Likewise with rewriting during translation. The job of a video game translator is whatever the people involved decide it is.

>>3685559

How can you stand being fat? Just eat less. It's seriously that simple.

>>3681897
>Most Nip games are actually pretty fucking bland
This. I was surprised how extremely bland the text is in most japanese games. The translators often gave it some character that was never there in the original.

>>3692027
If somebody wanted to read Twilight they should just read it in the original language. Claiming that learning a new language is too complicated/time consuming/not worth it for a single piece are just stale excuses.
If an author thinks he can write something better he should just write it instead of masquerading is as something else.