Were retro games actually made with scanlines in mind?

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They were made with pixels in mind, but displayed on CRTs. Scanlines weren't always as thick or even noticeable in most consumer CRTs of the time.

>>3671592

Most old sets were used with rf or composite, which makes the scanlines almost invisible. Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.

Also, scanlines only exist as an artifact of running a progressive image on interlaced sets. I'm sure if console makes didn't have to resort to that TV trickery scanlines would have never existed.

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>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best

>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.
You're not allowed to have this opinion on /vr/. It's just the rules.

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>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.

Herro, my name is Shigaru Meamoto, the creator of Mario and the current president of Nintendo.
Me want to settle this debate once and for all. Back when I was single handedly creating your favorite games like Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda and megaman the monitors we used to test the games were actually state of the art LCD monitors with no pixels.
Imagine our suplise when we learned most consumers had CRT TVs and they didn't see the games the way we had intended.
It was a very sad time for me and my honor.
:(
Hopefully this answers you questions about 30 year old games nobody cares about anymore.

~Shegaru Meuhmoto

>>3671625
>nobody cares about anymore
>prices for original carts are the highest they've been since the original releases
fuck off shiggy, you're delusional

>>3671592

no they weren't. Look at pc, what version of your computer was the way the developers intended for you to play games?

Excactly.

It's the fucking purist inbred who want to capsule the need of reliving their childhood over and over again, because life nowadays sucks and it's the only way to feel satisfaction.

>hit home

>>3671629
>not having a 2002 gaming PC setup
Get a load of this casual.

>>3671625

>you actually spent time to type this shit

>>3671628
Sorry. Here in Kyoto Japan (where I live) video games are very very cheap. Very cheap. People throw games away because no room to live. No room to live. Very little space in house. Much games are thrown away.

>>3671636

As of late, prices of games and consoles in Japan went up quite a bit compared to how it was, say, 10 years ago.
It's still a lot cheaper than in US/EU, but prices keep increasing every year, because there is actually interest on retro games. Here's the thing though, in Japan, people don't really collect, because you're right, there's no space in most houses. They don't pirate either, it's a cultural thing, they're used to rent music CDs, for example.
So what they do is they buy games, play them, then sell again to stores or online. That way, game circulation is higher than in the west, where people have bigger houses and want to own stuff and collect and have rare things.
There's still expensive games in Japan, but those are the actual rare games with short unit number, regular games, no matter how much people like them, are still cheap.
Still I'm sure there are collectors in Japan, and there's also the fact foreigners have started buying and taking overseas, so that means less units in the country = prices increase.

They were designed to be played on CRTs via composite, RF, or even RGB (depending on the type of console). This setup will result in scanlines, with their visibility varying based on the model and quality of CRT and the distance between the player and the screen. You can infer what you want from that.

We do know for a fact, though, that they were not designed to be played on LCDs.

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How it looked basically
My mom would shout at me if I sat that close so I could see the individual screen elements though

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>>3671632

>having the time and effort of holding a 2002 gaming pc setup

ask your mom for the chicken burritos tonight f@m, you still can walk up those basement stairs, you have not completed your final form yet

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>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best

You're uh

You're welcome to that opinion I guess

>>3671672
Are you really mocking him for not being a normalfuck?

>>3671678

so, you're saying you have a 2002 pc setup?

Can't you all just ask an actual game developer from back then instead of blindly guessing?

>>3671701

>Mr. developer, did you intend these games you made back in the 80s and 90s to be displayed on televisions made in the 2010s?

>>3671701

>MR. 2016 developer, did you intend that your shitty indie game was meant to be displayed on an atarai2600 or maybe on a apple smart watch 2200.
Maybe even the phillips CD-i holo-lens.

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>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.

Nigga

>>3671708

They obviously didn't intend for them to be displayed on LCDs. But OPs question isn't about LCDs vs CRTs, it's about whether they took advantage of scanlines.

>>3671712

>ask an actual game developer from back then
>from back then

>>3671592
Yes, scale lines help the sprites have more of a fluent animation look to it. Would look choppy without it. At that time.

>>3671734
Yes.

If you can't go back in time to show me what the development process was like back then, that means I automatically win.

>>3671734

>being developer from any time
>I have the right to say FOR ALL GAMES in my era how they should be played
>this does not apply for other years, only the years important for /vr/
>technology is stagnant and isn't dependent-revelant throughout time

from back then my anus ).) friend :^)

>>3671730

They were inherent to the displays and some people like the effect that they have on games. Composite video, however, does have a blurring and blending effect that some developers did indeed take advantage of to produce certain effects (Genesis transparency, extra colors from CGA color palette, blending certain graphics to give a more "natural" look like Louis Castle said was done for the Lion King).

Is there a way that scanlines could be consciously taken advantage of for the alteration of the displayed image, beyond some people simply liking the effect that they had on the artstyles that devs were using anyway? They didn't choose to use pixel graphics because they thought that scanlines would improve their appearance, that is simply what they did.

>>3671751

We know what tools people used to make pixel art. Some, including Sega, would use a drawing tablet. Others, like Rare, would use graphing paper. Most developers seem to have used powerful PCs to compose their images, but for early games with 1 color sprites, that shouldn't be necessary as every line of the sprite can be represented by a number.

http://www.demilked.com/pac-man-original-drawings-toru-iwatani/
http://www.smspower.org/forums/15288-SegaDigitizerSystemGameDevelopmentIn1986NHKTVProgram
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IwrfHssjbK8J:videospelsklubben.se/interview-with-ste-pickford-2014/&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0

What we don't know is whether this process was agnostic towards display media, or whether they compensated for CRTs' blurring and/or scanlines.

>>3671752

You're moving the goalposts. In every single one of these threads, including this one, people have treated this as a yes or no question.

>>3671625
>>3671602
>>3671598
>>3671656

>>3671628
The devs have gone crazy! They don't know what they intended anymore

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>>3671792

>Composite video, however, does have a blurring and blending effect that some developers did indeed take advantage of to produce certain effects (Genesis transparency, extra colors from CGA color palette, blending certain graphics to give a more "natural" look like Louis Castle said was done for the Lion King).

Dithering isn't something that's exclusive to composite video. It's useful for any image with few colors to work with, regardless of the display medium.

>>3671798

well I am not the other fucking people. Creation is not a time thing. It is not coherrent with it's time. There is a idea, and you do it with the means you have in that moment. 20 years later you can of course say there is a better way and other people will shout 'not as intended', but to tell the truth, each creator has avivid imagination of his idea in his mind which succeeds every creation sofar. It's an emotion he has, he wants to show his inner thoughts. And I don't know if EVERY creator ever thought that the technology of the time is the one that capsules it the best. Seriously, think about that yourself, would you make YOUR idea that way? Isn't YOUR idea an epic adventure that could last through time? Is there need for 1080or 4k? Ideas only need a platform

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Lots of fags here are still chained to CRTs it seems. Gaming is much better on an LCD monitor using emulators. Nobody said anything about what the developer intended.

Some anon said it right earlier, there's a lot of people on this board playing with old hardware just because of nostalgia, a sad attempt at recreating their childhood.

How does this trigger you? Stretching for autismos

>>3671842
Lotta posts like this lately. Do you think anyone around here gets legitimately angry because someone has different preferences?

>>3671842

Seriously... what are crt-fags gonna do in 10 years? I mean meanwhile they are a strange breed of people that want to play games on old, heave monitors. But what happens in ten years??? They will be a rare breed of obscure /vr/ back in the day as reddit will tell

>>3671842

It's not really the stretching what triggers me the most about that picture, but the fact the tint is totally fucked

Before I started to visit /vr/ I never even heard of this shit. I played games back then on a CRT and then I played them on emulators on LCDs and I never gave a single shit.

>>3671592
Can someone explain how the picture quality of each of the Luigi pictures is attained?

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>>3671886

Right, Game Boy games were made with dot matrix in mind.

Although Metroid II was also made with CRT in mind somehow since it had Super Gameboy enhancement (well, just a custom color palette)

>>3671883
HOW CAN YOU NOT HAVE A SIDE

you are the strangest of them all:^)

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>>3671891

>>3671906

Wait, those weren't made by the devs, seem like something Nintendo Power's artistic direction came up with.
You could just post the Black Label NES boxarts, which have pixel art on the cover (but still have CRT screenshots on the back)

the devs have feelings too...

don't hurt their feelings... respect their intentions.

>>3671912
t. dev

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>>3671906
>>3671886

You know, people were aware of pixel art before LCD screens appeared. I mean, pixel art was done on CRTs.
I know what you're trying to do by posting these but it has nothing to do with video signals, you're posting a picture of a calendar.

Reminder that those who care about developer's intentions are doomed to spend an eternity arguing with others who are equally as autistic as they are.

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You can easily tell from any screenshot where they obviously tried to display the games as good as they thought possible that scanlines were never a design factor.

Furthermore, nobody who cares about the games gives a flying fuck, only emulation autists.

>>3671910
>made by nintendo

>developer intention
>I let other people influence my decisions and purchases

>>3671883

This.


I went from consoles in the early 90s to emulators on crt monitors in early 2000s to LCD monitors and emulators by 2008 and never felt nostalgic for any particular setup. My games always felt just as good to play on all of those, but the video quality did increase in each successive step.

>>3672001
>>3671883

I think people here aren't satisfied by playing old games so they spend their time arguing about and setting the best way of playing old games. I saw this a lot in the audiophile community when I was looking for some gear... Music is often a means for enjoying their stereo.

>>3671616
>>3671621
>>3671674
>>3671674
>>3671723
samefag

>>3672026

Two of them are me but that's because you linked my post twice

>>3672034

Bullshit

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>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.

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>>3671906

Here's how it looks on a CRT monitor.
Looks kinda like games with sprite scaling.

>>3672136

The shading/lighting effects look much better here.

>>3671592
They didn't care.

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Left and right, essentially emulator/LCD vs CRT/console

Lol, keep buying those overpriced consoles/games and doing people the free service of dragging away their old abused CRTs. I'll be playing my emulators

They were made with both tube and CRT TVs in mind and later just CRT.

>>3672160

Image on my CRT doesn't look like the one on the right.

Looks more like a super zoomed scan from a magazine screenshot.

>>3671592
none. scanlines are a meme. i've never seen a tv that that scanlines

>>3672160
Ya cause the ground goes from "green leaves" to "blue brick" when you switch tvs...

>>3671592
Not shitposting, have a real question.
Is the first image of Luigi a scan line filter, the second image a pvm, and the third image a reg crt?
Honest question.

>>3671842
This does trigger because you're forcing 16:9. Come the fuck on.

>>3671628
>>3671801
considering all the revisionist factoids about Mario and Zelda that pop up in interviews every time a new game is close to launching, I buy that.

Yes in RGB 240p 4:3 in $1000 monitors used by medical and broadcasting professions with very t h i c c scanlines

or
no they were not intended by the developer rather a filter that smoothens the pixel look in 16:9 480i with 10 ms of lag

>>3671662
>vertical scanlines on a consumer tv
The fuck? Is this normal?

>>3671810
This is true, but older systems had far fewer colors to work with, and the blurring from old tvs and cables made it much easier to take advantage of dithering.

>>3672021
I've long ago come to terms with the fact that I enjoy setting up games for ideal play conditions than actually playing the games.

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>>3672380
Seeing as many (the majority of, even) consumer CRT TVs used a slot mask phosphor arrangement...

Yes, anon. Yes it is.

>>3671592
Considering that you can't take advantage of scanlines in anyway... no?

Now, exploiting composite artifact colors was an industry standard in all console and PC development up until RGB went mainstream.

>>3672421
A scan line is a result of the electron beam scanning along the screen. It has nothing to do with slot masks. Stop being retarded.

If you're not seeing individual horizontal scanlines on your CRT television, then it's most likely outputting interlace video or it's just blurry as fuck.

>>3671602
>Personally, I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.

...

Agreed actually

>>3672502
I was simply playing along with anon's naive definition of scanline - being gaps between picture elements.

As you can see from the image I posted the slot mask arrangement makes the appear vertically and the staggered "herringbone" layout of triads would render straight, clearly discernible horizontal "true" scanlines virtually impossible.

Now fuck off.

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Yes.

Of curse they were it was the dominant display tech at the time. Look how any sprites features break evenly with each line of 240p.

>>3672160
these are both emulators though

>>3671602
>I think the blocky look on LCD is the best.
You're wrong.

>>3671635
you actually replied

no

speaking as someone who's been making pixel art for a very, very long time

scanlines and crt display were too upredictable and varied depending on the TV being used, it would have made very little sense to design the art style based around something so unreliable.

it's true that occasionally devs would take advantage of the fact that scanlines were used to do things like transparency (waterfalls in Sonic for example) but absolutely nobody, and i mean fucking nobody, makes pixel art with some sort of scanline overlay or anything like that; they just make the art.

the art direction for most of the earliest games was also heavily based on readability.

a lot of CRT computers also do not look nearly as fuzzy as most of the filters and such that people put on their games around here...

>>3672657

also if you put scanlines on Gameboy, Gameboy Color or Gameboy Advance games you're a fucking idiot because none of those had scanlines

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>>3672661

and it's worth keeping in mind always that above all else, most old games were designed around readability first.

this is why the GBA has so many games with washed out colour palettes, it was to compensate for the fact that it didn't have a backlight and the screen was generally really shitty in the earlier models.

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>>3672657
Scanlines have fuck all to do with sonic waterfall.jpg

Nice job throwing away any trace of credibility you bellend

>>3672678

scanlines are just CRT artifacts just like the color bleeding all you morons rave about, it's the same shit

if you think scanlines are separate from the rest of the artifacts that come with a CRT display you are retarded

>>3672681

ultimately if you wanna experience the game it was "meant" to be played go play it on original hardware of the time

don't think you're missing anything if you just emulate it on your LCD monitor, you really aren't except for maybe some semi-transparent waterfalls.

if you think the games you're playing are ugly without scanlines and crt artifacts either you're a plebian with no taste or the game just has shitty art which is simply the case for some games.

>>3672681
That's not what causes the blending of colours on transparency though.

The display technology is separate from the signal type. It is the latter which makes dither transparency possible, not the former. It can be achieved on any display with composite through a primitive comb filter. Yes, even LCD!

>>3672136
>>3672136
So it just looks blurry and worse. If you like that then okay I guess. It'll never make sense to me though.

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>>3671910
>You could just post the Black Label NES boxarts, which have pixel art on the cover (but still have CRT screenshots on the back)

Of course they have CRT pictures on the back because that's what they knew consumers were stuck with. The magazines and the NES carts show what Nintendo envisioned the games could ideally look like even though displays of the time weren't good enough.

>>3671629
A small number of people actually maintain old PCs and even build new machines from old parts for the purpose of playing old PC games. The reason for this is that modern hardware and operating systems often have poor compatibility with a lot of these games.

>>3671792
This is the only correct answer. This is what developers back then had to work with, so that's what they designed for.

>>3672684
>if you think the games you're playing are ugly without scanlines and crt artifacts either you're a plebian with no taste
>taste is objective
>taste that isn't the same as mine is "plebian"

Why is everyone on /vr/ so myopic?

>>3672994
That's mostly because of software though. Dosbox is alright these days but games meant for some OS like Windows 3.1 are close to impossible to run on modern systems.

I suppose a better comparison might be resolution size? Games from the late 90s often didn't go higher than 800x600 natively. Perhaps buying an old school monitor might grant you the "authentic" fallout experience but most of us just install a high resolution patch.

>>3672882

See:

>>3671930
>>3672136

Pixel art has nothing to do with video display.

>>3672875
>So it just looks blurry and worse

That's precisely what happens when you play an SD game on an HD screen. Play an SD game on an SD screen and it'll look the best it can. same for HD games and HD screens, obviously.

>>3673079
>Play an SD game on an SD screen and it'll look the best it can.

That's nice to say, but I think SD games look far better on HD screens, so long as you have an upscaler.

>Pixel art has nothing to do with video display.
It does when people try to insist developers weren't working with pixel art despite the fact that displays of the time couldn't display it well.

>>3671842
Nothing wrong with playing on an lcd, just at least get the aspect ratio right because that's disgusting

>>3673105
>but I think SD games look far better on HD screens

wat

>so long as you have an upscaler.

oh. eh...

>It does when people try to insist developers weren't working with pixel art

Care to quote someone saying developers didn't work with pixel art? First time I see this claim.

>despite the fact that displays of the time couldn't display it well.

You're stubborn in your "HD is better than SD".
These games ARE Standard Definition. You want to play them on HD screens using upscales, and that's fine, but don't try to force your opinions on others. It's generally accepted that SD games are better on SD screens, and HD games are better on HD screens. it's basic 2+2.

>>3671602
Good job on triggering /vr/'s autism (unless it's just one autist samefagging).

>>3673121
please space your posts better, everything your teachers told you about double spacing in your MS word essays is bullshit.

>>3673130

Okay
but what about the argument?

>>3672314
No, just different dot pitches on CRTs. Left looks like a regular consumer-grade TV, middle and right look like high-res PC monitors.

>>3671602
>Personally
Stop.

>>3673121
>oh. eh...

Obviously. If you just try to hook an SD system directly to an HD display the whole thing is a huge smear.

>Care to quote someone saying developers didn't work with pixel art?
I don't collect quotes, but being a /vr/ regular since they made the board I've seen this attitude many, many times.

>You're stubborn in your "HD is better than SD".
There's no stubbornness other than stating my personal preference. I know some people prefer CRTs and that's all well and good for them. I have always wanted to see nice clean crisp pixels and I'm happy that I now can.

>that's fine, but don't try to force your opinions on others.
I don't try to force my opinions on anyone. I am frequently vocal about everyone accepting that opinions vary. I would prefer to never talk about displays here at all. I think talk of TVs and display devices is better for /g/ than /vr/, but when people do bring it up and say things like

>Play an SD game on an SD screen and it'll look the best it can.

I will chime in with my disagreement.

>>3673140
>Personally
>Stop.

Not him, but why?

>>3673156
Are we discussing what developers intended or your inferiors tastes? Not him, just asking.

>>3673162
>inferiors tastes?
>taste is objective

lol okay baby cakes

>>3673154
>I don't collect quotes, but being a /vr/ regular since they made the board I've seen this attitude many, many times.

Same here, and I never saw this. And again, pixel art has nothing to do with video display or screens, it's just a way to draw graphics.

>I will chime in with my disagreement.

Yeah but you said

>even though displays of the time weren't good enough.

Not "good enough" for what? They are good enough. If you prefer HD screens and upscalers that's your taste and I respect it, but yes, SD screens are good enough for SD games. More than good enough.

>>3673168
>Not "good enough" for what?

To make the games look as good as I thought they should have. I was referring to my personal preference. I hate the way the picture on a CRT looks, I always have. Even before I knew a better option would eventually come I always thought it was an ugly display that made the games look unpleasantly blurry.

I likewise respect there are people who like the way they look or even think games look better on them. I just disagree.

>>3671592
>Were retro games actually made with scanlines in mind
Uh, no shit? Developers knew how TVs displayed games on certain consoles, they definitely took advantage of the lines to hide graphical quirks.

I wonder....if youtube fags like "mylifeingaming" and "phonedork" didn't make videos about using PVM's, would people be promoting scanlines on this board like they do? Scanlines are hardly visible on a crt /w composite which is what most people used, so it seems that this is another meme that has just caught on.

The other funny thing is, alot of old fags on this board whine about how youtube stars like James Rolfe have caused their hobby to become expensive by opening the door/market to casuals and collectors. These same old fags will then shit on anyone who dosent buy a PVM for retro gaming...funny thing is, promoting PVM's like they do will just open this door/market to casuals too, making PVM's too damned rare and expensive. Wait...thats already happening.

The point is, playing emulators on an LCD looks and feels great. So does real hardware or a wii on an old consumer crt/PVM. Personally, i like the blocky pixel art look on an LCD(prepare for autists whining about that one), i dont like scan lines at all. I never noticed them on my shitty tv using RF growing up so i dont miss them. I just like how as time went on, displays ahve gotten clearer and my games have been keeping pace through the use of upscalers and emulators. I may one day own a PVM, maybe, but having an LCD dosent mean i am going to throw away my beautiful commodore 1802. So fags, stay off eachothers toes with your subjective bullshitposting

>>3673194
>.if youtube fags like "mylifeingaming" and "phonedork" didn't make videos about using PVM's, would people be promoting scanlines on this board like they do?

Not as much perhaps but they likely still would. Scanline filters were popular pre-youtube.

>>3673208
professional monitors have been popular in the classic game scene since the mid 2000's when they started being phased out of professional use. MLIG and phonedork just helped publicized it a little bit more. You'd know this if you weren't a latch-on poser faggot.

>>3673218
>You'd know this if you weren't a latch-on poser faggot.

lol what is this even supposed to mean?

>>3673221
>I have literally only ever played old games on emulators on my pc mom bought me

>>3673218

Anyone concerned with getting laid in the mid 2000s probably wouldnt know what you knew then

>>3673224

That is an excellent way to play games though. And atleast that guy youre shitting on was playing the games rather than hoarding them and obsessing over video equipment. Try life once in a while lol

>>3673224
Ohhh boy it's the old "I don't like your opinion so I'm going to call you a kid" /vr/ tactic. Not that it actually matters, but I'm in my 40's and was stuck with CRTs for a long time. Which of course you won't believe because that's also par for the course here.

Why is it that /vr/ is one of the least mature boards on all of 4chan?

>>3673235

Fuck knows. A lot of people get autistic when someone likes something they don't.

I used to agree with shitposters on the fact that HD screens were garbage, but now that ghosting and lag isn't really a thing anymore, the only thing that remains is the meme that gets copied and pasted

>>3673245
>A lot of people get autistic when someone likes something they don't.

This is by far the worst thing about trying to talk about anything on here.

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>>3672097

>>3671810
Dithering is the coolest

>>3671842
This. I don't even care it's stretched.

>>3671592

Not the scanlines, those are nearly invisible form normal distance, but the slight blur CRT naturally add to the picture.

>>3671850
yes they do AUTISMO AUTISMO AUTISMO

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>>3673379
You called?

>>3671842
I dont care how anyone plays a game but it should always have the correct aspect ratio

For snes 4:3/8:7 is fine