xenogears

Rico and Chuchu should never have been in the game at all.
Citan should have been a mentor who doesn't actually fight with the core party.
The entire Kislev chapter is a huge waste and should have been spent on giving Billy and Maria better development.
The Thames is cool but it also probably should have been cut for more important things given the budget and time constraints.
Most of Billy's chapter needed revision, because for all the shit that happens we don't really learn a whole lot about him as a character.
And finally, the Elements a shit.

>>3474468
I loved discovering her whole story. Beautiful character and genuinely touching love story.

>>3475304
I don't really recall billy or maria doing anything either. even bart was pretty useless after the first part in aveh, but I guess fei needed a best buddy character.

they should have expanded on emerelda's story. she was their fucking child. which is pretty cool to have in an rpg.

it's also my opinion that like, half of what happens in disc 2 isn't even that important

>>3475308
miang was a soulless vessel that tried to genocide humanity... teh characters were a little flat outside of elly and krelian, but the world building was pretty fucking cool.

>>3475358
>miang was a soulless vessel that tried to genocide humanity

oh boy my bad, I meant elly.

>>3475358
>I don't really recall billy or maria doing anything either
Hence why I said they should have gotten more development.

>half of what happens in disc 2 isn't even that important
Neither is 2/3 of disc 1.

>>3475394
disc 1 is well constructed though, and the plot as written generally contributes to the buildup of the mysteries and unraveling of the world.

disc 1 as written could have been well concluded without half of the content of disc 2 imo

>>3475402
>disc 1 is well constructed
1/4 of it is literally filler.
Another 1/4 is paced terribly and just goes all over the place.

The beginning and VERY end of disc 1 work, but holy shit everything in between is in need of massive revision. Especially from the start of Kislev to Stone's death. That shit is just awful.

>>3475407
you know now that you mention it my memory is pretty fuzzy. I remember basically, going on an archaeological excavation, which ties into the world history well, slowly being drawn into the war, and then then going from the actual war to the background players and its causes, which then leads to solaris. I remember it feeling like a pretty natural progression, all things considered. but it's a little fuzzy.

>>3475407
Kislev marked the point at which the game started South. The long-ass cutscene where the gang planned how to recapture of Aveh was, unfortunately, a sign of things to come. Xenogears could have been so much better than it was. It's a shame Takahashi didn't really learn to direct a good RPG until Xenosaga Episode III...

>>3475446
are you kidding me. xenosaga ep. 3 was a fucking shitshow.

the best parts of 1 and 2 both revolved around albedo and jr, and the rest of the cast was just there to tie it all back to gears.

whatever human and transhuman elements existed in xenogears got lost in xenosaga's absurd plot calculus.

that said, I heard xenoblade 2 was okay, but not outstanding. it sounds like people just liked blowing things up in mechs (I do too) but that the plot underperformed again

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>In a game where you end up fighting god only one character has the guts to stand outside her mech

and that's why Maria is the biggest badass in the game

>>3475464
>Dr. Krellin, I'm CIA.

>>3475358
>they should have expanded on emerelda's story. she was their fucking child. which is pretty cool to have in an rpg.

Emeralda's backstory was huge, what are you talking about? Did you not 100% the game?

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>>3475476

Well, I agree with you but I still stand that you really shouldn't have to go out of the way to get the bulk of someone's character development

>>3475459
Xenosaga didn't try to tie itself back to Xenogears, it went its own direction. Sure, there's a lot of reused terminology and concepts, but they're used in mostly different contexts and situations. Everything else is just nods and fanservice.

>>3475476
>Did you not 100% the game?
100%ing the game isn't particularly rewarding, though. All you get are an extra cutscene, a katana pulled from some desert fossil, and needlessly overpriced crap from Joe's shop.

>>3475490

Oh please, Saga was pretty much defined by it's NODs to gears. Hell the fact that it uses Xeno at all in the title is proof enough

>>3475498
Yeah, but it's not some pseudo-prequel that people keep trying to headcanon it into.

>>3475476
she barely has any interaction in the plot. she's their fucking daughter and she has like, 3 scenes.

>>3475490
xenosaga basically recycled half of gears and somehow managed to make almost all of it worse and less sensical.

he recycled the cosmology, except actually made some humans divine for no reason. he recycled the metaphysics except made it less reasonable. he sidelines the interesting characters, such as albedo and jr, so he can introduce dumb characters like shion, whose purpose is simply to ferry along other characters, who themselves are plot devices, such as kos-mos, whose purpose is to explain the robo-soul cosmology... and... that's it! that's the point of half of the characters. establishing robo-souls. stuff like the wave existence is there... and is interesting... but why?

get real, buddy.

>>3475519
>she barely has any interaction in the plot. she's their fucking daughter and she has like, 3 scenes.

Not that guy, but I will say this

her BGM is entrancing, the only track I've had in my HD for 10 years now and I'll never delete it. Both the original and Creid version.

>>3475446
Takahashi didn't direct Episode 3. He was barely involved with it.

And really, most of Xenogears' vices are related to its uncompromising favoritism and dedication to keeping characters "relevant" no matter how much it hurts the narrative. The entire Kislev chapter pretty much shouldn't have happened at all, and most of Billy's supporting cast is superfluous.

>>3475519
Oh, I don't disagree with Xenosaga being a way worse story than Gears, I just thought Episode III was the first of Takahashi's games whose gameplay and pacing wasn't complete garbage. Gears had way more potential, but Square didn't put into time and money into it to make it an actually good RPG.

>>3475529
>Takahashi didn't direct Episode 3. He was barely involved with it.
Oh shit, you're right. Huh.

>>3475431
A couple of the things you mentioned didn't happen at all and you basically skipped the parts of disc 1 that sucked. You pretty much just remember the good stuff.

>>3475464
Shame she's barely a character.
It's so weird that they committed so much time to Margie even after they decided to scrap her from the party, but they barely touched Maria. Her arc was handled so sloppily, it's a real shame.

>>3475476
She's the third/fourth most important person in the game. That kind of stuff shouldn't be outside of the core plot, especially when she's basically family to the lead.

>>3475532
He pretty much got booted after Episode 1 and they had him do some stuff on Episode 3 to save face after E2 bombed.

His first game that wasn't a mess was Blade, and then Blade X was a mess again because he was too busy experimenting with Open World game design to write an actual story.
It was worth it, X is an amazing sandbox.

>>3475530
man, I honestly think 1 is better in terms of writing and direction, even if the pacing if fucked, and 2 is better in terms of pacing or just in terms of character development.

I can't really see a single thing 3 does better. I would have really preferred if the game was spent resolving jr, or hell, even kos mos character arc, but instead it spends the entire time fleshing out the retard cosmology even more. 3 creates NEW cosmological questions, to be answered in 3 as well, when the cosmology from 2 was adequate and should have been what was resolved. but that's just like, my opinion, man.

>>3475540
>emeralda
I don't think I'd put her in the top 4 importants
1. fei/lacan
2. elly
3. miang
4. krelian
5. ramsus/cain?

the shame about emeralda is that her story is so fucking sad, being separated from her parents for 4k years, but they never go into it, and she never does anything in the plot such as being rescued/rescuing anything.

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http://lparchive.org/Xenogears-(by-The-Dark-Id)/Citan/


remember

>>3475540
>His first game that wasn't a mess was Blade
What about Soma Bringer? I heard that was decent.

>>3475542
>man, I honestly think 1 is better in terms of writing and direction
I disagree. Shion's characterization in 1 was awful, the whole Cherenkov plot line was pointless, and the game didn't really have a good conclusion - sequel setup or not.

>>3475540
Every party member in the game besides Fei, Elly, Citan, and Bart are one-arc wonders that have their hour or so of relevance before shutting up and nonchalantly following the party for the rest of the plot. It's kind of lame how disc 2 shifts the focus of the story away from world building and exploration and puts it onto this small group of overpowered individuals whose conflicting philosophies shape the fate of the world. There's such a disconnect between the world and characters at that point that every NPC and minor character becomes utterly irrelevant to the story at large.

>>3475586
Man, why are these lparchives always so full of dumb and unfunny crap

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>>3475596

>>3475589
the plotlines with virgil and albedo had decent writing. and it felt like the gnosis were actually dangerous. also, the setting was explored without being text dumps.

also, ziggy wasn't all that bad.

overall, I think the entire series was awful, salvaged by just a few characters. albedo alone was almost worth playing the first two games for.

>>3474468

I played the game for like 6 hours and gave up on it.

Nothing fucking happens and it's so fucking dull.

>>3475603
No, seriously. I know fun, I know dumb things done in good fun. It's not the first time I see this, it's a pattern.

But hey if you like it, cool, not attacking you, I guess it's mostly pointed at the dumbasses behind that kind of commentary that's neither informative nor funny.

>>3475614
Dark Id's LP of the Gears is hilarious, though. Hell, the Citan asshole page is just the easiest thing to pull from it. Get a sense of humor, bro.

>>3475623
I'm not your bro.

>>3475614
A list of every single time Citan dicks you over is pretty useful.

>>3475629

with that attitude I doubt your anybody's

>>3475638
Very introspective. Stick to your tasteless humor and be done with it.

>>3475641
Jesus, it's not even Monday yet. Chill out.

>>3475637
I wonder if Yui kept a tally of that.

>>3475646
Just stop, I'm too tired to be mad. Are all people from LP this toxic?

>>3475650
>Talk shit
>Others talk shit back
>"WOW FUCKING TOXIC, PROBLEMATIC LP COMMUNITY"

You two need to stop your retarded back and forth.

>>3475669
You're late.

>>3475304
Wow, everything you just typed there is awful.

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>Xenogears: 1998, PS
Episode V

>Xenogears 2: 2000, PS
Episode II. Another last hurrah of 32bit JRPGs in the twilight days of the console. Considered an overall more polished effort, expanding on the action RPG formula while taking greater care of plot and character development, better stomaching the favoring of FF9 on the production side than XG1 did with FF8. Commercially overlooked but fondly remembered.

>Xenogears Episode I: 2003, PS2
Huge success: Released between FF10 (2001) and FF12 (2006) to a starving JRPG fandom. Rebranding brought new fans to the series who never played the first two games.

>Xenogears Episode V: 2005, PSP
Rebranded and vastly overhauled port of the first Xenogears game. The series' random naming and numbering is widely mocked by press and gamers alike. Initial rift between PS1 era old-timers and PSP era first-timers soon patched up over sheer quality of release.

>Xenogears Episode II: 2005, PSP
Another rebranded and polished port, released half a year later. Fandom reaches new heights between old fans and new fans, building hype for...

>Xenogears Episode IV: 2006, PS2
Generally considered the peak of the series. With the FF12 project hitting roadblock after roadblock in development, eventually being pushed to the PS3 where it killed the FF13 development (*thank fuck*), Square Enix threw its everything at XG4.

>Xenogears Episode III: 2009, PS3
With gaming as a whole having moved away from the JRPG genre and FF12 (PS3) being lauded as the glorious return to form of the former supreme JRPG franchise, XG3 fails to repeat the success it had during the PS2 era.

>Xenogears Episode I: 2011, PSV
Port. One of the best-selling launch titles.

>Xenogears Episode IV: 2012, PSV
Port.

>Xenogears Episode VI: 2013, PS3
The final episode. SE throwing money at its newly invigorated Final Fantasy franchise and the upcoming FF13, XG6 suffers the same fate as the first game. The cycle is complete.

>>3476112
maxxx autism

>>3475994
Go ahead, defend Chuchu and explain why the Thames was a better investment than actually finishing more of the story.

>>3476271
I really don't get your gripes here. Every jrpg has silly characters, why would Chu-Chu be any different? Is it because you expected more of the dark and somber game that is supposed to be Xenogears? The game that has a kid throwing kame hame ha waves at you during a tournament?

If you want to get all shitty about it, I guess the entire "part of nature that endured and can show enough strength to battle huge robots" is as good of an example as any.

As for Thames, you are obviously not man of the sea enough to get it. But really, again, I don't get your gripes about it. It was a fun inclusion to flesh out some parts of the world. Did it cost the overall product? Maybe. But honestly, I enjoyed that more then seeing more about fucking Esmeralda that I gave little to no shits about. If there is a thing I gripe about is that they didn't fill out the last spot for your character roster.

>>3476325
No, actually. It's because Chuchu was shoehorned in and not used effectively, so the limited screentime and time spent ironing out its combat should have been spent on other woefully underdeveloped characters. If Chuchu was actually funny or had any presence at all I'd say it's fine...but it doesn't. Same deal with Rico. His story takes up like 1/4 of disc 1 but he doesn't matter in the slightest and barely has a personality.

And I like the Thames just fine, it's just that the game is missing way more vital things and the pacing is fucking shit. The game would be better off if they didn't bother, coolness be damned.

>>3476325
Well, when you have a story that delves into heavy shit like racism, genocide, drug abuse, child prostitution, and shadow government conspiracies, it's a bit off-putting seeing a giant fucking Furby spout catchphrases and get crucified.

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>>3475304
you're right about everything except the elements

fuck off man, nothing wrong with hot-ass space idol villains

>>3476391
They're a shit because of how they were used.

If they replaced the Gebler squad and were done better throughout the game, it'd be fine. Having to fight them all twice in a row at Gate 2 sucked ass.

>50 posts
>only 1 mention of the music
how

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwVIKUQ__B0

>>3476351
I really liked seeing chuchu get crucified

am I the only one?

>>3476525
I'd say it's about par for a Japanese work, leave to them to misappropriate religious means and imagery in ways the West never thought possible.

It had some novelty to it just by how fucked up it looked but at the same time I don't think that moment outright sucked.

>>3476391
Only Dominia was ever relevant in the plot. Pic related barely ever showed up, despite having personal ties to Elly and possibly being the strongest of them all.

>>3476559
The story would make way more sense if Elly was leading the Elements from the start and Domina took over after she defected. Pretty much everything the Gebler troop did and said should have been them.

I'm finishing up Gate 2, and the game is dragging so hard.

Hammer died for your sins.

>>3478381
Hammer was a fucking cunt.

>>3479205
Hammer had mad skillz.

What'd you guys think the game was trying to say? How'd it explore its major themes such as the existence of God in a world where prayers go unanswered? For me, I think it was trying to say God does exist, and that we're all spiritual beings, but he can't be given to us on a silver platter through organized religion. We must discover him within ourselves, because God is within us, and once we do that we can begin to have faith in ourselves, and once we have faith we can begin to do the things that once seemed we would never be able to do.

>>3479430
Here's some quotes that I think support this, I just beat the game last week and its probably the best story driven RPG I've ever played. You guys think anything else tops it?

Billy's dad to billy after he realizes the organization he had faith in ETHOS proves to be a sham: "now you see your church was just a system to corral weak souls and spirits. Faith and God aren't given to you, they are found within yourself, there are things you have to discover within yourself and by yourself."

>>3479430
>>3479454

Considering the depth of emotion, scope and ambition... nothing less than world peace.

>>3479454
Elly and Margie on the bridge in Nisan during their tending to the wels - E: "let's hope everyone returns safely." M: "to God?" E: "no, to your own innermost feelings that you believe in.. (Upon realizing this,) the things that I couldn't do before I'm probably trying to do now."

What else did you guys think this game was trying to say?

>>3479454
>I just beat the game last week and its probably the best story driven RPG I've ever played. You guys think anything else tops it?
I mean, it depends on what you're looking for in a JRPG. If you look at the game as a whole, Gears is kind of shitty mess. The battle system sucks, the dungeons are boring, and there's more time spent on cutscenes and dialogue than the first three MGS games put together. So in that regard, I'd say there are loads of RPGs better than it. It's one of those games that's fun to discuss and peruse the internet for extra info about, than it is to actually play.

Story-wise, though, it definitely stands out as a gem. I think the only RPG that's on par with it in that regard is Mother 3, but for completely different reasons. So yeah, it's a great story that became a shitty game thanks to massive amounts of scope creep.

>>3479597
I was just asking what story can top it? Sure the gameplay isn't great (though I enjoyed it, especially beating deus without cheese equipment), and it looks like shit, not to mention it felt I spent 20 hours loading the menus and entering different areas, but the story is probably the most brilliant I've ever seen in a game and was wondering if anything else comes close

>>3479597
Xenogears has the blueprint of a great story, but the execution is mediocre at best. Most of the cast is overshadowed by the DEEP MACHINATIONS of exposition and its Patron Saint, Citan Uzuki. When Citan isn't doing it, his friends Sig and Jessie are or some other minor character steals the spotlight. As a result, we know so much about Citan and get so many scenes about him, but we don't really know fuck about Maria or Rico outside of their chapters. Combine this with bad pacing and most of the cast subplots being awful, and the story falls short.

>>3479430
xenogears is about the singularity anon. it's not about god. like most modern media it's steeped in humanist ideology, which is the exact opposite of spiritualism, as it brings everything down to the material level.

you sound autistic. gears has some interesting technological themes but it's completely spiritually barren

>>3479694
I don't really care if a couple characters don't have super flushed-out personalities as long as the story has something grand and cosmic and beautiful to say, which Xenogears does

>>3479713
You're the autist here my friend, the game was essentially trying to prove spirituality does exist though not in the form of organized religion. Why don't you give some examples to prove your point instead of making baseless claims?

>>3479716
>I don't care if the story is told well, it just has to have a huge scale.

Well the scale doesn't get a lot bigger than a well explained thesis on the reality of the world versus the idea of god, so I guess no story is ever gonna beat Xenogears for you, friend.

>>3479716
>super flushed-out personalities
Hey now, it's a doggy dog world out there and strong characters are a diamond dozen. For all intensive purposes, a well defined cast is a blessing in the skies.

>>3479724
It actually had a lot more to say than what it did about God, it satirizes human vices in multiple portions throughout the game, which can be seen when you first get on the Thames. Maybe you didn't pick up on any of it?

>>3479740
I don't see how that has anything to do with what I just said.

>>3479694
Yeah, like I mentioned before, most of the playable cast does fuck-all after their plot arcs are finished. I'm sure there were plans to give them some sidequests and such on disc 2, but obviously those never materialized and we were left with the Fei and Elly show with Citan and Bart.

>>3479763
A lot of the time it's honestly more The Citan Uzuki Show: Sometimes Featuring Fei and Elly.

Regardless of what they planned, it's weird that Citan completely overshadows most of the cast instead of the other characters being organically woven into the story and having some level of agency. But I guess that's what happens when you let the creator's pet run wild.

>>3479721
are you even familiar with the idea of secular humanism? the idea is to relieve suffering on earth, because transcendence either doesn't exist, or because our human forms are more iportant.

xenogears eschews or balks at the idea of transcendence, whic is inherently what spirituality is about, and it exalts the physical form of humanity.

get an education, dweeb

the spirituality talk is just words. I bet you think deepak chopra is profound. window dressing does not replace substance.

>>3479749
You were basically saying how the game had nothing else to say besides what it did about God right? Well it certainly did, especially in its attack of a certain school of philosophy that's represented by the character Krelian

>>3479772
the plot was so stupid complex he probably didn't have any other idea how to tie it all together. they should have cut all of the playable cast outside of fei, elly, emeralda, and maybe citan or bart.

>>3479792
More claims, still no examples. Nice.

>>3479797
>You were basically saying how the game had nothing else to say besides what it did about God right?
No? Are you fucking retarded?

You said you don't care about shit character writing, what matters to you is grandiose, cosmic themes. I said you can't get much bigger than an in-depth talk about the reality of God and religion as it relates to the human experience. I can name games with better writing, but they wouldn't matter because their scale doesn't begin to approach Xenogears'.

I don't know where the fuck you're pulling "the game was nothing but 'lol god'", but that's sure as fuck not what I said.

>>3479802
I think Billy and Maria would have been worthwhile if the game actually used them properly. They had plenty of time and their stories aren't complex enough that it would become a problem later on, but they just dropped the ball on them.

>>3479805
are you fucking stupid?

the entire game revolves around fei and elly's love which is... genetically programmed and material. elly's love for humanity is.. the product of an organic machine which compelled her to love people. material, not spiritual.

karellan, who longed for transcendence, and a love based in spirituality, tried to fight the material and... he was evil. grahf, who acted similarly, who despised the material realm... was evil.

the "spirituality" is window dressing. the ontology of the game is fucking materialist. you idiot.

>>3479814
Well yeah, I don't believe fleshing out 2 relatively minor characters = telling a story well. They were pretty much there for gear variety sure. The game was about fei, elly, citan, and Krelian and I'm fine with that

>>3479816
yeah, I thought they were cool, but you can't have scope of characters and plot simultaneously.

I liked billy and maria and had them in my party half the time, but given how thoroughly the game revolves around fei and elly being an adam and eve, it's just incomprehensible to me that they don't develop their own daughter more.

honestly half of the plot should have been cut out to make more room for other things, but that's just like, my opinion, man

I wish there had been more martial arts

>>3479831
it wasn't even really about citan, kek

cain/ramses was a pretty big player, but he gets zero development.

also, I forget, were citan, billy, and bart anima reincarnations? they lived alongside and fought with lacan right?

>>3479832
>you can't have scope of characters and plot simultaneously.
...Fucking what?

>>3479826
Krelian wasn't spiritual at all you retard, he openly laments after Sophia dies that God does not exist because he does not answer his prayers, and that's why he made God with his own hands. And he didnt want a love based in spirituality, where in your mind did you make that up? In the end he says, and I'll quote this shit, "human interaction creates pain and sadness, we are all imperfect beings, so I wish to return to the wave existence." So yeah, you're just retarded

>>3479864
you're a retard. the wave existence is transcended from literally another dimension.

secondly, you didn't find a way to show that the ontology of the universe is essentially materialist. because it IS.

I'd forgive you if you were some 14 year old faggot, but this game is old and you're probably an adult. so stop being stupid.

>>3479863
it just doesn't happen. a creator has to know functional limits to scope.

>>3479873
B-no. No, that's wrong.

You can have scope in both characters and plot simultaneously. There is nothing stopping you from having a strong plot and strong characters that are well fleshed out at the same time.

What the absolute fuck is wrong with you?

>>3479873
He didn't want to become one with transcendence faggot, he just wanted to escape the evils of the world, your explaination sounds just wholly retarded through and through

>>3479890
the game is materialist, and you're a fucking idiot

go read deepak chopra for your "spiritual" needs

>>3479906
"karellan, who longed for transcendence, and a love based in spirituality," yeah, keep talking retard

Any good place that has the script translated better? And will there ever be a better translation patch?

>>3480102
What's wrong with the NTSC-U localization?

>>3480109
It's really bad at times. Typos, literally translated jokes, abandonment of personality in a lot of characters' lines, etc. You know the drill. Typical late 90s JRPG translation problems. I can't really blame the translation team for it, though. They didn't have the proper budget or editorial staff for the localization - plus, they had to intentionally change or mistranslate a lot of religious terminology to avoid controversy stateside. Richard Honeywood, who headed the project, said it was the hardest translation he ever worked on and pulled a lot of all-nighters trying to peace everything together. Poor guy.

You guys should read gnostic scripture as the plot points and themes are pulled from it.

>>3480252
Sounds pretentious and unoriginal as fuck.

JRPG's are utter shit.

>>3479205
He fixed your gears, got mad stuff for you and was an overall good guy. Then you moved on up in the world, and forgot the poor demi human from the slums. No wonder, you pushed him over the edge. He's a tragic hero of the story.

So, what happened to Jessie? I've been reading the Xenogears wiki to remember some shit about the game and went through the characters a bit. Says that Jessie is nowhere to be seen in disc 2 so his fate is not known.

I was pretty sure he got splattered when his son used him as a fucking bullet or am I misremembering stuff?

>>3479772
Best character in the game getting the spotlight? Say it isn't so. If anything, it was refreshing to see that the guy that was not the main character of the game be the one in the spotlight.

>>3480692
He magically fell out of the sky after Billy shot him. Then he shows up to monologue a few more times. Then the plot forgets about him.

He really should have just died.

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elly is the hottest jrpg lady of the 90s desu

prove me wrong faggots

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Everyone is dumb except for Miang

>>3481670
I'm so tired my eyes blended her legs into the background, making her look like a midget.

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>mfw can't play this
>mfw have to watch a bazillion hour long Let's Play

>>3482402
Just watch a cutscene montage on YouTube and read Perfect Works. Doing those thing is probably better than actually playing the game at this point, anyway.

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>>3481670
I like to imagine that she's just wearing stockings with no panties

oh shit they know I'm in a xenogears thread

>>3482402
how can you not be able to emulate a psx game

>>3482440
I can emulate it fine. I just find the gameplay EXCRUCIATING

>>3482447
so then don't play it?

I mean I kinda like exploring around in that game.

There were too many random battles, and maybe the only fun parts of of the battles were the boss fights, and the gear battles, but that shit was sick af when it came out. Fucking giant robots man, I love that shit.

If you put in some effort you can probably find some hack or even GS code that will turn off random battles or make them happen less often, if you're really interested in the plot.

>>3482447
If the gaming portions are bad for you, just watch the videos on youtube.

>>3482402
The game has ups and downs in terms of your playthrough.

If you haven't gotten to the Vanderkaum fight, I'd say keep plugging away. If you have, just fucking abandon all hope. The game becomes a complete slog at Kislev and only gets better a few times before disc 2.

Watching a playthrough is honestly kind of optimal for most of the game, because you can just skip repeat enemies, play dialogue heavy sections that don't go anywhere at 2X speed, and don't have to worry about missing shit. Disc 2 is mostly a VN with battle segments anyway, so who fucking cares if you play that part or not?

part of playing a game is that it tells you a story about yourself

a let's play doesn't really do that and I feel it loses the charm

>>3482509
Depends in the game and how it's designed, as well as how you play it.

Xenogears' gameplay and story is so incredibly fucking segregated that after you've played a few hours, watching the rest is nearly the same as just playing it. I'm going through Krelian's lab as we speak and just mshing out Deathblows to deal with the onslaught of Wels in one of the cages. I'm not involved with the game at all because this is pure padding for a chest. I look up at the screen to see their quotes and then continue surfing the net while inputting commands. It's almost mindnumbing.

>>3482513
perhaps it's to give you an idea of the scale of the horrifying system you're up against

maybe you're supposed to become tired and bored and disgusted with yourself for committing to such violence

maybe the random battles are a reflection of your need to play videogames every day until they're finished in real life

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>>3482528
Perhaps the game's dungeons and random encounters were poorly designed because the dev team allocated their budget poorly, lost a lot of resources to a bigger project, and had to cobble a game together out of their half-finished mess.

Maybe you're a pretentious cunt for trying to pretend you could or should read a deep message into every poorly designed video game.

Maybe sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

>>3482465
Oh, come on. It was clunky as hell even when it came out. The average SNES Final Fantasy plays way better than Xenogears.

>>3482534
>>3482543
maybe they were just doing the best they could

the same way you've never done ever

>>3482547
Considering all the other shit they wasted their budget on, no. They didn't do their best at all.

But keep throwing out ad hominem insults for no reason, I guess.

>>3482564
>ad hominem

Saying this really makes you look like a raging fagget.

Also leave my fucking game alone, finished it in 2008 and had one of the best gaming experiences ever, loved the story and had a lot of fun playing

now stop being a fucking pussy and figure a way out to enjoy this masterpiece, you either play it or you watch it, spouting shit here won't do a thing other than getting you called a contrarian BITCH

your move

>>3482547
I highly doubt that considering they made loads of better games before Xenogears.

>>3482573
Have you made any games

literally any at all

have you ever even had a job where you had to work for someone else

>>3482576
>work for someone else

>>3482572
anon calm down, hide your emotions from your enemies, they can tell you're getting rustled

>>3482578
not everyone is lucky enough to live off of disability cheques in their mom's basement anon

>>3482576
Well, I have worked on a software dev team in the past, and I'm planning to continue doing similar things in the future once I find a new job.

It still doesn't excuse Xenogears being a shit game. Quit deflecting criticism with your dumb bullshit.

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>>3475586

You guys hungry?

>>3482584
show us some of your work so we can critique then big man

>>3482572
>You've never tried your best ever!
>Not ad hominem

>People discuss how a game has problems.
>Get this butthurt

>>3482576
>L-let's see you do better.

Is Saga in here defending her husband's honor?

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>>3482584
I wouldn't call it shit, but it sure is rough.
I'd give it a pass if a good editor gave it a once over, revising half of disc 1 and a good chunk of 2.

>>3482594
>You've never tried your best ever!
>Not ad hominem
>People discuss how a game has problems.
>Get this butthurt

STOP SUCKING MY DICK YOU FAG

Honestly I'm one of the first people to say that no game should really take more than 10 or 20 hours to finish, at the MOST, but the time when Xenogears came out was different, people actually sat around watching tv or reading books all day or listening to the same fucking albums over and over. It was "acceptable" and it had to meet a standard that had been established by that Dragon Quest shit. Regardless of any of this it's still not actually a bad game. It's concepts and set pieces and overall plot structure and design is still leagues ahead of anything the shitters in here will come up with. I know this because anyone with actual talent wouldn't shit on Xenogears, because it's actually a little bit scary that Takahashi even came up with this shit. The fact that it's still a good game, that even the shitters itt felt like they were obligated to play it and understand it and WITNESS it, even though it has so very many serious problems, says a lot about what it is, what it could have been, and how it turned out despite the disparity.

>>3482620
you ever heard about paragraphs faggot?

>>3482620
> It's concepts and set pieces and overall plot structure and design is still leagues ahead of anything the shitters in here will come up with.
Nobody here is denying that it's a good story. It's just a bad game.

>>3482621
honestly not necessary considering the length of what I wrote and the fact that there was no real appropriate place to insert a break. It would have disrupted the tone of the reading.

>>3482625
You can't dissect a work and say this part is game and this part is not game just to justify your shitty argument. Xenogears is all videogame whether you like the way it's delivered or not.

>>3482632
Except yes you can because that's how you pick out the strengths and weaknesses in something?

>>3482635
Except that's not what you're doing and the specific thing you're saying is actually bullshit because you can't divorce the segments where they player has control from the ones where she doesn't from both being part of the player narrative.

>>3482620
>Its concepts and set pieces...still leagues ahead of anything the shitters in here will come up with.
Not "anything", but they're really solid and way ahead of a lot of their contemporaries.

>Its...overall plot structure and design "" ""
Oh FUCK no. The pacing is only solid until Id drops the Yggdrasil on Bart's head, after which point the entire game goes into crazy batshit disorganized bullshit town. The battle system is cool but horribly designed, the dungeons with a few exceptions are terrible, characters like Citan make the story flow way, WAY worse than it should, several of the character subplots are both unfinished and need a rewrite because they're just sloppy...the game is a fucking mess in terms of structure and design.

>I know this because anyone with actual talent wouldn't shit on Xenogears
There's pretty ample reason to both praise and scold the game. It's got strong elements but it's pretty fucked too.

>because it's actually a little bit scary that Takahashi even came up with this shit.
It's college level philosophy, man. This isn't really groundbreaking thought, it's just something that's way more thoughtful than most video games at the time were...and even then, for most of the ride it's not actually anywhere near that thoughtful. It's just doing dumb anime cliches with giant robots.

Seriously though, nigga. You got problems.
Go play more games and read more books. Xenogears isn't any sort of be-all end-all. It's not even the best game the guy directed.

>>3482639
Uh, yes you can? A good half of the game is cutscenes, which give only give the player control by making them press X occasionally.

>>3482646
the game doesn't stop being a game when that happens.

>>3482639
If the part of the game that's rewarding requires no interaction from the player, it's really no different from just watching it happen in a video online. If the other part of the game is so predictable, shallow and unengaging but also doesn't tie into these other, non-interactive scenes, they really don't add shit to them.

You'd have a point if we were talking about something like FF7, where the battles on your way to the Mako Reactor build tension, but Xenogears isn't built that way. It's actually impressive how much it segregates the gameplay from the story.

>>3482656
Yeah, it really does feel like a lot of stuff was thrown in to give you things to do rather than to meld the gameplay and story in any meaningful fashion.

You people just dont understand

you dont understand

>>3482668
It's a combination of a lot of design oversights at once.

The game's deathblow system basically asks you to almost exclusively use them when fighting. They're kinda overpowered and dip from "kinda" straight down into "obscenely" by the end of the game. Because of this, fights become less engaging over time because you're just going to keep hammering deathblows and eating HP/EP items and casting Inner Healing between fights.

The enemy encounters are never actually balanced well enough to menace you unless they have a shitty gimmick, so you don't have to use tactics or plan. This takes you out of it and makes them feel more like they're incidental than part of the action going on.

Story enemies actually CONTRADICT battles on several occasions in even the most innocuous ways, with shit like a single guy trying to get revenge becoming two monsters or a dude in a duster becoming a sexy witch girl.

The enemy frequency doesn't help either, making battles feel superfluous, and since everything is corridors it's really just you running to the next plot room while annoying flies buzz around you. And rarely, if ever, does the competency of the enemies translate into the story. Characters constantly fluctuate between story and battle power levels with no rhyme or reason.

The battles are so poorly implemented they may as well not be part of the same game.

>>3482643
>There's pretty ample reason to both praise and scold the game.
that's not what shitting is. what these people do is eat and shit. they have no critical opinions.
>The pacing is only solid until Id drops the Yggdrasil on Bart's head, after which point the entire game goes into crazy batshit disorganized bullshit town.
You don't like the wild train rides? Come on man this is super robots.
>The battle system is cool but horribly designed, the dungeons with a few exceptions are terrible
right, on a specific detailed level, it's shit, but stepping back from a distance the hand-to-hand combat, gear combat, exploration on both levels, and the framing of the conflicts and player actions is some fucking hot shit. The execution is questionable, but it's a different thing to look at it 20 years later and say that, at the time the competition was not really doing anything so stellar that it put it to shame.
>characters like Citan make the story flow way, WAY worse than it should, several of the character subplots are both unfinished and need a rewrite because they're just sloppy
Citan is a manipulative cunt who ruins everything. This is intentional. The character subplots are fine, the player doesn't need to know everything about everyone. That the other actors play their part without getting totally dissected or allocated with perfect ratios of development is acceptable to me.
>It's college level philosophy, man. This isn't really groundbreaking thought, it's just something that's way more thoughtful than most video games at the time were...and even then, for most of the ride it's not actually anywhere near that thoughtful. It's just doing dumb anime cliches with giant robots.
Dude Xenogears is Gnostic af and it's more thoughtful than other videogames tend to be period. I also didn't claim it was totally mind blowing, I said it was a "little bit" scary. There's no way you can look at all of what he came up with and say it's not impressive.

>>3482690
>at the time the competition was not really doing anything so stellar that it put it to shame.
Suikoden II came out the same year and blows Xenogears the fuck out in every area imaginable. Its scale was immense, its story was (mostly) impressive, and it was damn fun and chock full of content.

Xenogears is ambitious, but honestly there are middling SNES JRPGs that do better by their gameplay than it does.

>Citan is a manipulative cunt who ruins everything. This is intentional.
It sure is. His being a huge fucking Mary Sue and completely grinding the story to a halt by expositing for half a fucking hour is not. His role is fine, but the writing for his character is absolutely awful. He's such a pet it isn't even funny.

Meanwhile, I'm not criticizing the character subplots because they don't tell us enough. I'm criticizing them because they're bad. Billy's plot in general is just this winding, poorly paced mess that tells us jack shit about anything that matters to anyone but takes up hours of the player's time. Rico's section is a huge drag and just gives us a twist that doesn't even matter. Maria has a strong concept with completely LAUGHABLE execution. They're just awful.

>There's no way you can look at all of what he came up with and say it's not impressive.
It's not impressive.
At least, in terms of writing. I'm impressed they bothered to make a game about something like this in the 1990's and it's a strong concept, but nothing about Xenogears' writing is actually impressive.

>>3482695
>Suikoden II came out the same year and blows Xenogears the fuck out i
Holy shit you think Suikoden II is good what the fuck maan
>I'm not criticizing the character subplots because they don't tell us enough. I'm criticizing them because they're bad. Billy's plot in general is just this winding, poorly paced mess that tells us jack shit about anyth
your example of a good game is Suikoden II man

what the fuck are you even on, are you drunk? go back and play that shit game

>>3482704
I get the feeling you may just be shitposting, anon.

>>3482706
Seriously go back and play Suikoden II and come back and tell me it doesn't have exactly the same problem of asshole characters pushing you through the story and forcing you to do shit because that what the plot requires, it's just as fucking lazy if not more so

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>>3482708
That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. At all. And I never even complained about that aspect of the storytelling in Xenogears.

Start talking sense, you jabbering monkey.

>>3482712
I honestly can't figure out what part of Suikoden II you actually think is good

>>3482447
I really don't get this. Might be because I played this in 1998, but I loved, loved, loved the gameplay and the kung fu shit and HOLY SHIT GIANT ROBOTS BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF EACH OTHER. Maybe today I'd think different if I played it, fuck, I probably would, but back then I loved the combo attacks, the exploration, the goddamn world map and the such. Disc 2 universally sucked, but everyone knows that.

Only dungeon that I remember sucking even then was the sewers where you fight Redrum or whatever you call it. Fuck that place. I hated it with a passion.

>>3482728
Not him, but the villain, the scenario, the plot, the overall theme, the fact it continues from the first one, the "world is full of douchebags" harsh reality, the battles are usually pretty fast.


That does not mean it's not a game without it's share of problems. The army battles are in my opinion much worse in 2, the fucking squirrels make Chu Chu seem much more important, a lot of the characters are useless and sure as hell have less story development than even the worst character in Xenogears. But it is a great, great game overall. Just as Xenogears is.

You are both dicks, is what I'm trying to say.

>>3482750
>Anyone who does not place all games I like on equal footing is a dick.

Fuck off, m8.

>>3476112
God damn

>>3484150
yeah isn't it a shame

I tried playing this game when it got released on PSN in 2011, it didn't quite click with me when I tried it then, but I wanna try it one more time.

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>>3482695
>Suikoden II came out the same year and blows Xenogears the fuck out in every area imaginable.

Of fuck off. Suikoden 2 goes to complete shit after Luca.

>Durrr I know the war was started on false pretenses but we need to fight anyways because lol destiny

>>3486604
That's still better than Xenogears, sadly.

>>3488421
No, it isnt

>>3486604
I literally stopped playing Suiko 2 after Luca

A lot of Suiko games actually hit their peak in the third act and leave you asking why there even was a fourth or fifth

>>3488430
>A well constructed game whose plot goes to shit at the end.
>Anywhere near as bad as a game with good concepts but bad dungeons, bad pacing, bad writing and a fuckload of missing content.
In what fucking world?

>>3482620
what an awful post. im embarrassed for you!

>>3488807
Then why do you feel threatened enough to post about it half a week later

http://betweenlifeandgames.com/analyses/history-xenogears-xenosaga-part-1-xenogears/

this is a good read

>>3489363
Well, it is until the fourth part, where the dude starts spilling his Saga fanbrat spaghetti.

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>Whatdoesgodneedwithastarship will never finish the game

>>3489765
Just read the Dark Id LP. It's pretty much the same kind of humor.

>>3490290

He does good stuff. His Final Fantasy ones are great

How long is this game compared to other PS1 JRPGs?

>>3490329
Long as fuck - and not for particularly good reasons.

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>>3490329
Depends, how fast of a reader are you?

>>3490329
I got 100 hours in before starting disc 2 because I fucked around and left it running at times when it was boring me to death.

But
>>3490418
isn't even shitposting, your reading speed greatly changes the length of the game.

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>>3476112
>tfw we got the wrong timeline

whos this sexy anime girl

>>3490810
not him but when i play an rpg i like giving my character voices and pauses when i see fit

So how much of Xenogears' (released in February 1998) ripping off of Neon Genesis Evangelion (initial episode aired October 1995) was overtly intentional versus coincidental?

We can ignore the fact that they both involve mecha with near-godlike powers that synchronize with their pilots' thoughts. After all, the mecha genre had been around for several decades at this point, so it'd be fairly certain that some of the design motifs and plot elements had already been around to draw from.

But seriously, there's so much overlap that you wonder why Square didn't just make a deal with Gainax to make an Eva game and/or expand within that universe.

There are many more similarities, but to list just a few:
1. Both protagonists are 'the chosen one', thrust into a situation of cataclysmic importance without being provided practically any knowledge or explanation from the authority figures in charge -- both Shinji and Fei would have benefited from a summary briefing from Gendo/Citan instead of being left completely in the dark.

2. Both set in a world that is 'post-impact' and have to deal with a returning threat from celestial beings that can only be dealt with via mecha using hand-to-hand martial arts moves.

3. Loads of sci-fi techno-babble; pseudo-philosophy/psychology (lots of Freud and Nietzsche); main characters with unstable psyches; nano-machines and AI; design elements overlapping including a red-haired protagonist and weird pseudo-human, etc. etc.

I'm sure that these two weren't the only anime/games/manga to have these overlapping elements. Was there something going on in Japan that played into this? Something to do with the cultural setting, media, politics, etc?

>>3492154
>1. Both protagonists are 'the chosen one', thrust into a situation of cataclysmic importance without being provided practically any knowledge or explanation from the authority figures in charge -- both Shinji and Fei would have benefited from a summary briefing from Gendo/Citan instead of being left completely in the dark.
This is extremely common in fiction


2. Both set in a world that is 'post-impact' and have to deal with a returning threat from celestial beings that can only be dealt with via mecha using hand-to-hand martial arts moves.
Evas barely used martial arts styled hand to hand combat and setting a mecha series in a post-apocalypse world is incredibly common even Gundam And Macross did it

3. Loads of sci-fi techno-babble; pseudo-philosophy/psychology (lots of Freud and Nietzsche); main characters with unstable psyches; nano-machines and AI; design elements overlapping including a red-haired protagonist and weird pseudo-human, etc. etc.
This was somewhat popularized with Eva but it was definitely a staple in mecha prior to Eva once again you can look at Gundam and Macross for example among the vast amount of mecha produced prior to eva

>>3492198

so basically most of the similarities, including the Judeo-Christian motifs were already present and commonly used in mecha genre prior?

I am just curious, as I am not really familiar with much of the genre.

>>3492202
>including the Judeo-Christian motifs were already present and commonly used in mecha genre prior?

pretty much, the only thing Eva pioneered was the heavy religious element.
The closest thing before then that did something similar was gundam which had introduced concepts of spiritualism and transhumanism as core concepts to its story.
Those themes could've influenced Eva's focus on character development since Anno has stated that he was an otaku and gundam was one of the biggest anime franchises at the time.

I think either way Mecha was destined to become tied to religion, but that's a whole other topic

fuck I missed a long Xenogears thread

Disc 2 apologist here, ask me anything.

>>3492213
How do you put up with a lack of good gameplay and poorly translated dialogue for an entire disc and still like the game?

>>3492213
do you agree that disc 2 is one of the better VNs of the 90s

>>3492215
hello friend

>>3492226
>lack of good gameplay
While true, it's not like Disc 1's gameplay is golden by comparison. I find it to be a wash because you still get a few dungeons and none of them are as annoying as Babel Tower or something.

I do admit that there's a few areas I'd really like to have explored first-hand (the Mass-Driver facility, one of the Soylent Systems, and the dungeon preceding the first Deus fight), but most of what wasn't included was basically already explored in the first disc: the dig site, Solaris, Babel Tower.

>poorly translated dialogue
Well, that's not really the fault of the game itself. Is it annoying that it takes a little work to piece together, yes, but the core story sequences of the second disc are intriguing.

>>3492238
absolutely

>>3489631
well i too would suck saga's clitoris if she asked me to

>>3492240
>While true, it's not like Disc 1's gameplay is golden by comparison.
I mean, sure, Xenogears' gameplay is shit in general, but at least it felt like you were doing something in the first disc. In the second disc, most of the dungeons exist in these isolated bubbles in between cutscenes, so there's no real progression in terms of equipment, character levels, or any other shit like that. Hell, there's even a bunch of mid-cutscene boss fights which are made intentionally easy and feel like throwaway content.

Stuff like that is why I can't really recommend Xenogears to anyone. There's so much of Square's usual polish missing from the game; and there's only so much a good plot can do to carry a shoddy product.

Why do you people call the gameplay "shit", anyway? It honestly wasn't shit. Could've used some more polish, yes, but it was definitely serviceable. I enjoyed the character controls and the 2D sprites with full 3D backgrounds. You could cheese the fights at some point but they too were mostly fine.

>>3493962

Because it's 2016 and no one has an attention span anymo

>>3493962
>Why do you people call the gameplay "shit", anyway? It honestly wasn't shit. Could've used some more polish, yes, but it was definitely serviceable.
It was not serviceable whatsoever, dude. It sucked all kinds of ass. The battle system was boring and underdeveloped, the platforming elements were pointless, most of the dungeons were poorly designed, and they couldn't even make any of the mini-games fun. And that's not even addressing all the quality of life issues and how much game time is taken up by pressing X to advance cutscene dialogue.

>>3481918
>Everyone is dumb except for Miang
this should have been the game's title.

>>3492213
You say that as if it's wrong to think Disc 2 is better than Disc 1.

>>3493962
The entire battle system is based around mashing out long combo attacks in order to unlock flashy special moves that take 0 resources to use so you can just spam them to win every fight.

The entire game's on-foot combat is drawn out and boring, the first time because you're basically grinding and the second because you're stuck watching the same couple of long animations every single fight.

>>3494186
>Implying that bitch wasn't also dumb.

>>3495961
miang is the king bitch gtfo

>>3494578
Yeah man, who needs vidya when you can watch slide shows, right?

>>3496273
>He thinks VNs aren't video games.
>He thinks a decent VN < a shit RPG
Whew.

>>3496465
If a VN is a videogame then so is a Goosebumps choose your own adventure novel.

>>3474468
>those "fuck me" eyes

unf

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>>3495961

She literally does not care who wins and was playing everyone from the word go.

Ramsus? Her bitch
Grahf? Her bitch
Krelian? Her bitch
Team Fei? You know they're her bitch.

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>YFW "flight"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQi7vk9Yzdk

>>3496475
Is it a DIGITAL CYOA book?

If no, it's not a video game.
If yes, it is.

>>3496610
>wanting to fuck your mom

>>3496465
>>He thinks VNs aren't video games.
I mean, it depends on the design, really. Would you consider games like Ace Attorney and Policenauts VNs?

Even if you assume they are, the average VN/text adventure at least has interactivity in the form of dialogue trees, flavor text, and possibly navigation commands. Disc 2 doesn't have any of that - it's just plain old cutscenes mixed in with some sub-par bits of JRPG gameplay.

>>3498669
>he doesn't want to fuck his mom
wake up man it's 2016

>>3500260
I have to say the Gebler soldier Miang was the shittest of the Miangs.

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>>3500291

She had several of the worlds most powerful people dancing to her tune all the while given the party the run around. If she's the shittiest Miang Id sure as fuck hate to see the best.

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Supposedly according to PW or some such Miang's gear is called C1 Vierge and possessed a suped up version of Elly's Vierge and if she wasn't more interesting in fucking with everyone could have tap danced on basically everything that's not an omnigear and even then she might give the lower ones a bad day.

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It also gives me an erection

>>3500467
I was actually just talking about aesthetics, but since we're on the subject, Zeboim Miang was a far more influential Miang.

>>3500489
Yeah, the Vierge line was designed around the Aerod function. I actually think Elly's is supposed to be stronger, because Miang's is the prototype, but the user makes a big difference.

>>3500527

I didn't like Elly's Vierge all that much. I know it's the heroine mech but I really don't see the super nazi's making one of their officers robot pink

>>3500527
Miang herself basically isn't all that strong, she's just basically unkillable as long as Deus is a live. So what it was is that Elly's Gear was weak, but she herself was basically the strongest Ether user, probably because of reincarnation ESP and the fact that the contact loves her.

In game Aerods were actually absurdly powerful if you learned how to use them correctly, which I think was to continuously build up her combo meter without actually using any of it up on combos, then burn it all in one glorious 4th dimension magical super robot funnel attack.

>>3500653
It's pretty bad. And it makes goofy-ass noises and little hearts when you attack, too.

>>3500902
Yeah, I never used to use her until I started to pay attention to accessories the tenth time around. Even if you just use her regular magic in gear, it's great when boosted. It's like having a deathblow every turn.

That makes sense about Miang now that I think about it, since her only truly powerful attack is just reflecting your own damage.

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>>3500527
>I was actually just talking about aesthetics

nah, the shorter hair look is banging

>>3501574
i want her to step on my cock and call me a filthy -lamb-

>>3501596

and that's exactly why she won't

>>3502357
I dunno, she definitely slobbered all over Ramsus' dong.

>>3502371
Ramsus seems like the kind of guy that would be more interested in her if she didn't desu

Miang probably fucked the whole government to get influence and dirt on all of them. She doesn't seem to have any actual social skills. She's a parasite.

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>>3502376
>>3502371

Ramsus probably cried a lot during it too Ill bet.

>>3502381

She's lived countless life times and can put on any facade she wants. She had Kahn tricked for years before he noticed she had possessed his wife and was experimenting on Fei.

She was just cold to Ramsus because he's a bitch. She's probably fucking invented social skills

>>3502410
She doesn't really need to put on any facades, she just to dominate whichever woman has the most advantageous ties. She doesn't need social skills, only information and knowledge. And I'm pretty sure Karellan was the one doing the experiments.

>>3502424

She doesn't CHOOSE who she takes over. It's completely random. She keeps the memories but she needs the social skills and charisma to worm her way into a position of power.

She's never been some emotionless Rei Ayanami type she's actually rather glib too.

>>3502532
Don't quote me on this, but I think she does have some influence over it, and I think that's canon. If she doesn't, that's a pretty big coincidence that she took over Elly, let alone Karen.

>>3474468
Why does this game never go on sale on the PSN? I got like every FF for less than half the asking price, plus Chrono Cross and some other games, but I never see Xenogears on sale, not even during the Square-Enix sales.

>>3502532
She comes off as more of a sneering bitch than anything Machiavellian.

>>3502586

Well her becoming Karen was what set off the games plot to start with and is why Fei is our protagonist and not whomever the next Able would be and to be Elly she did have to kill like 98 percent of humanity and was planning on killing the rest