How did they do it?

>>3466878
because build wasn't a 2d engine disguised as a 3d engine, it was actually a 3d engine.

You wanna know the difference between Silverman and Carmack?

Carmack is working on gimmick VR shit for Facebook and Silverman is a lead developer making the first commercially available and viable volumetric display.

Did Dark Forces have room over room? I remember it feeling much more 3D than Doom, but I can't think of a great example.

>>3466945
I dont think so, just amazing level design that fools you

>>3466931
Carmack became a member of the enlightened Lisp master race and also worked on rocket science, though.

>>3466878
Wall portals. The hole through wihich you look down isn't actually a hole but a flat surface with a portal flag linked to similar surface on the other side. Engine does the rest.

Same trick is used in Portal game. Prey and many others, but they used it as a gimmick, while Build used it as the only way to make RoR.

>>3466931
Build is a 2D engine. You can not do room over room without portal trickery.

>>3466945
DarkForces had real RoR without portals or other trickery, which technically made it a true 3D engine, but it also had ridiculous ammount of limitations on what can get overalpped and what not.

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>>3466945
>>3466962
Dark Forces does have room over room, but you usually have to think about it to notice it's happening because they are very careful with the portaling--you never get these show-offy kind of "look down into another room" moments. But an easy example is in the very first map. You can go down the hallway and off in the room to the left, and later once you get the key you can take the elevator up and walk around on the level directly above that area. The second map also has a bridge over the canal that you can walk under.

Dark Forces is actually really impressive with how seamless it's multifloor architecture is. Elevators never have the "hitching" that you sometimes get in Duke 3d.

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>>3466931
john carmack from occulus
ken silverman from build engine (duke nukem, OP pic)

>volumetric display
cool gimmick, really useful in many many ways, but how is that gonna help me have a depth perception when playing counter strike?
i mean, assuming its gonna be full color and 50" on a table before me, how a 30 meters detph is gonna be translated without it looking like a diorama?

and why everyone keeps insisting that stereoscopic display is a fad?
okay VR is a misnomer, but no one is confusing it with holodecks or matrix, and a simulation of full range depth perception + peripherical vision fulfill differents uses than volumetric displays

>>3467113
>The hole through wihich you look down isn't actually a hole but a flat surface with a portal flag linked to similar surface on the other side.

do shots go through it and do enemies react to you?
how about some grenades, can you drop them under there?

>>3467182
Yes to all three

>>3467182
Yes, everything goes through, just like in Portal game. It is basically the same thing, but while in Protal game they are dynamic and can be moved, in Build engine they are completely static.

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>>3466945
>>3467121
When people talk about Room Over Room they talk about things like pic related, when you see both floors at the same time.

Just saying because I've heard people claim that Build can't have any real verticalty without portals. That's not true, DN3D has plenty of that they didn't have the "portal" trick figured yet. Only when you can see both floors at once does Build need a portal, and quite both floors are linked both with portals, and without, at the same time.

>>3467192
>in Build engine they are completely static.

Actually.... I haven't tried it myself, but in theory it may be possible to make them move. I don't know about Blood but I'm 100% positive I saw one moving around on a X/Y axis in Shadow Warrior, mixing the amoeba effect with the RoR effect.
Blood's and SW's RoR are done differently and Blood's are a lot better, so I wouldn't be suprirsed in if it's possible in Blood too.

>>3466931
>build [...] was actually a 3d engine
Not true my friend. Everything RoR was achieved through "wallports" where you're actually see a portion of the map located elsewhere. Bridges, shelves etc are created with sprites in Duke3d. You can have two areas that are located in the same map space, but you'll never be able to "see" them at the same time.
Source: the web and making D3D maps

>>3467227
Static, as in "prebaked". They are calculated during map load and new ones can not be added during gameplay, like Portal does constantly.

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Here is what I meant earlier, to avoid any confusion. I've heard plenty of false beliefs on this board on how Build handles different floors, some talking of portals and player teleportation.

Build is capable of displaying as many sectors as you want in what we'd call the same real life space, as long as can't see these two sectors at the same time.

Doesn't matter if the sectors are "above/under" each others, they could very well be the same floor.

This is how you can have virtually several floors above each others. Look at E1L1 of DN3D, the projection room is above the corridor below. As long as you don't make the player try to see 2 overlaping sectors at the same time, it's not going to glitch.

DN3D doesn't have the "portal" tricks, and as you can see in the 2D pic, they don't teleport the player to another area either, the 2nd floor really is there.

The "portal trick" is only used when you want the player to see both floors at the same time. So let's take a look at Shadow Warrior now...
>>3467182
>>3467192
In Blood, enemies do have a hard time reacting to you through portals. Go play E1M6, in the big room with water all around and sloped corridors going up all around above, enemies on above floors won't see you unless you trigger them, and even then they'll have a hard time aiming at you.

>>3467227
>>3467275
>When people talk about Room Over Room they talk about things like pic related, when you see both floors at the same time.
Semantic nitpick, I don't think that's correct. I think that's what people mean when they say "TRUE Room Over Room" (aka TROR) but regular ROR is any time you have multifloor architecture which DN3D has plenty of, as you know.

Also I know what you mean about the "portal trick" but it's confusing because DN3D does in fact use portal all the time because every sector connection is a portal for the renderer and that's why the overlapping spaces are possible as long as you can't see both.

I'm sure you know this, but I think it's going to confuse people who think portal = some kind of magic mirror teleporter.

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Shadow Warrior level #04, Dark Woods of the Serpent.

On the left the 2D editor map of the dojo. Then, the lower floor, and the upper floor of the dojo.

In the 2D map you can clearly see that, unlike DN3D's E1L1, the 2 similarly shaped floors are located in different places of the map.

In short, the parallaxed blue and green texture is the portal and allows to see the other floor, it kinda works like the mirrors in DN3D except that instead of showing a mirrored image of the room, it shows another room that the mapper made himself; and actors like the player can teleport seemlessly through the mirror.

Now, if you play that in game and look at the automap, the 2 floors will be on top of each others. That's another fun trick SW pulls. Remember, it is possible to overlap sectors, so what SW does is using another trick that brings the other floor and literaly puts it above the first one when you play the game. So, the 2nd floor really are on top of each others, but really aren't.

Now, that's how SW does it, most of the times. Blood's RoR work a bit differently. Redneck Rampage Rides Again has it too but barely used it.

But the really best stuff, is the kind that is done in Blood's map E1L1, that is to say when both floors are connected using both methods at the same time.

What I mean is, in Blood's E1L1 some links between the 2 floors were made using Build's natural abitility to have overlapping sectors (the DN3D E1L1 example), and some other links were made using portals.

When mixing the two at the same time in a smart way, it really creates the feeling of a true 3D engine, unlike SW's RoR which can come off as really cheap looking. On top of that, Blood's RoR is more powerul than SW's, and less laggy.

>>3467284
Yeah, I'm using the word portal the same way it's been used in this thread, or so I believe. When >>3467121 said that Build can't do room over room without portals, I'm sure he meant without the kind of TRoR portals that SW, RR:RA and Blood have.

That triggered me, and I wanted to avoid the confusion and make the difference between the 2 things, as I've often heard people think that, any time there is a 2nd floor in Build, it uses a Blood/SW like portal, that or teleporation, which is not true.
I think that when people hear the explanation of SW/Blood TROR they generalize it to everything. But Build is not Doom, you can overlap sectors.