Duke3D vs Quake

>>3440980
Quake

>>3440980
They both suck compared to Blood.

>>3440980
Duke3d is more fun in single player and runs better on weaker systems, Quake is more technically impressive and has way better multiplayer.

They compliment each other, no need to pick just one

>>3441054
It would be great if atari would release the source code..

>>3441114
Funny enough, Carmack actually helped Ken Silverman a bit with his engine. This article sums up why I think Build engine games hold up so well.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/04/13/build-engine-duke-nukem-blood-shadow-warrior/

>>3441130
Atari are greedy bastards.

>>3440980
Quake ruined FPS games with it's awful pacing.

Definitely Quake. Duke is too slow for me with no tactics involved. Level design is also garbage. Humour doesn't really interest me, music and levels are forgettable.

>>3441054
But Blood is grimdark and boring, just like Quake.

>>3441087
>multiplayer
AKA the death of quality first person shooters.

>>3441728
if you like shooters and don't play multiplayer you are pure autistic

>>3441730
>paying $60 for the same game over and over with slightly different maps and a campaign that takes 20 minutes to beat
No, multiplayer killed the FPS.

>>3441130
But Monolith or whoever did release the code for Blood2, and other lithtech games to boot, that sounds pretty impressive!

>>3441743
Yea but that sounds like the Lithtech engine and not a licensed Build engine.

>>3441730
wtf sort of logic is that? A man plays through a single player campaign, an autist is the guy up until 4am every night trying to up his kill/death ratio.

>>3440980
Hey, Strife and Skynet were also released in 96!

>>3441054
they are both better than blood fanboy.
>every other enemy is hitscan
>game is reeeaally difficult because of it!
>every webm is some asshole crouching because it bugs the ai to where they cant shoot you very well and can only chip you off with a shotgun or dynamite and pretending the game takes a lot of user input by flailing around
>forced autoaim, makes projectiles useless in close encounters
>music outside the very first level is awful
>level design extremely hit and miss
>its platforming sections were awful even in comparison to duke 3d ones
but then again you are the same guy who shills every build game but the only one rightfully popular

>>3441735
beat quake 1 in 20 minutes without console even on easiest difficulty, it has more dedicated singleplayer levels than multiplayer meming faggot

>>3441765
there is no kdr ratio in quake.

>>3441746
As if anything else made with the build engine besides Douk has had source released? That's the way it's been going, besides, what does it matter, how demanding can a build game be to emulate or whatever?

>>3441690
I cannot comprehend how anyone could hold this opinion when Duke's levels were far more varied, interesting, colorful, and interactible than Quake. It's just sad we never got the Quake Romero envisioned.

>>3441771
Marathon did too.

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>>3440980
So these two would run on anything, right? Gamepark, Raspberry pi, Cubieboard, Gamecube? Maybe a GP2X would be too weak, and the Cubieboard's weak GPU might show with quake.

>>3440980
you tell me

>able to run through the quake campaign, scourge of armagon and dissolution of eternity without feeling like I wasted my time
>find duke is nice but never beat the game once

>>3441792
a fucking rpg? yeah im crying because we got what we did. level design in quake is better than duke nukem 3d. there arent entire episodes nobody wants to play and the world is surprisingly interactive, just doesnt have lame shit like projector porn or wallhumping. meanwhile you cant even have any meaningful verticality without teleporters in duke which quake makes much use of

>>3440980
>using a beta screenshot for comparison
How biaised are you?

>>3441054
Nice try mein ghost, but I still have a personal preference for DN3D and always will since that game is like a part of my life.

Now as far as "which is the best", we need to get out of the way which one was the most influencial, and the most played and liked back then.

And in both cases, it's neither. I wish I could say DN3D was, but that would be biaised. The genre was pretty much split in two with these two games, and both were just as influencial. For instance, a game like Half Life, 3 years later, shows that it owes as much to DN3D (levels grounded in realism, interactivity with the environments) to Quake (the engine, the kind of 3D level level design it does).

Which one you like best is "apples and oranges", but don't make a fool of yourself pretending the one you like was the most played and most influencial.

FUN FACT: Duke Nukem 3D and Quake share the same engine on Saturn.

>>3441873
>meanwhile you cant even have any meaningful verticality without teleporters in duke which quake makes much use of

That's bullshit. First of all, Duke3D rarely uses "teleporters" for verticality. Sometimes it does, like when you jump off the roof at the start of the game or with a some elevators, but most of the times there are different floors, they really are there.

Due to the way the Build engine renders the world, you can have as many areas as you want be in what we'd call the same physical space in real life. Then, you can make those areas be "above" or "under" one anothers. The trick is that you can't see two of these areas at the same time, but there are tricks to make it possible, depending on what you let the player see, which is why in Hollywood Holocaust you can see the projector room at the same time as bits of the corridor that goes under it.

Now, as far as verticality goes, DN3D had a BIG advantage over Quake that tends to be overlooked nowadays. DN3D doesn't demand that great of a computer to run, and as a result, you can do more. This was the reason why Quake's verticality rarely does more than being able to see 2 floors at the same time, or when it does, we're talking floors that are small, flat, corridors with barely anything, the kind of things which could be done in Build with sprites. In DN3D, you have levels like Fusion Station, which have more verticality than stock Quake ever had.

>>3441772
You've been trolled, guy you're responding to wasn't me, but for Blood's defense you have to put things back in context. Crouching was still very very new in FPS back then, and the very fact that it's there, and that it actually DOES something, was amazing. Noone was used to crouching as much as we do these days, which is probably why its effects MIGHT have been overlooked by the devs (or who knows, perhaps it was intentional because like I said, crouching was new)

>>3442118
>>3442148
hows about stop namefagging youve been here for years

>>3442118
>using a beta screenshot for comparison

To be fair it's not like the game looks worse, and pigcops have that bitching two barrel... thing. Also the HUD was way more sophisticate, like those leds on the side for letting you know when autorun was activated. Need not to say the levels were also much more detailed in the beta, downgrade was a thing even back then.

We will never fucking see anything of this until Terminx tricks Gearbox into selling prototype material, right?

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>>3442175
>downgrade was a thing even back then.

Yeah I know, "cutting is shipping" is true in many sense of the word. They simplified detailing a lot, getting rid of stuff that weren't essential, for better performance. For instance in Hollywood Holocaust, that area near the cash register with the atomic health comes off as being a little weird, but there used to be a door there, which makes a little more sense.

I guess that back then, I was glad they did that though, because playing DN3D on a 486 DX4 meant playing in 320*200 with Details set to low! Only way to play it smooth, pic related.

>>3442158
Nope, I came with the walls. The last survivor of a time when more than a third of the posts on /v/ were from trip and namefags.

>>3442257
>"cutting is shipping"

Is that George Broussard? Fucking hyprocrite.

>because playing DN3D on a 486 DX4 meant playing in 320*200 with Details set to low!

That's like the second time I hear that from you but it's ridiculous. Unless you mean dead 70fps which weren't really needed and I think a DX4 could've afforded details set to high. Especially if you had one of the supported cards with special optimizations (no, really). Check this out:

>[Screen Setup]
>;
>;
>;ScreenMode
>; - Chained - 0
>; - Vesa 2.0 - 1
>; - Screen Buffered - 2
>; - Tseng optimized - 3
>; - Paradise optimized - 4
>; - S3 optimized - 5
>; - RedBlue Stereo - 7
>; - Crystal Eyes - 6
>;
>;ScreenWidth passed to engine
>;
>;ScreenHeight passed to engine
>;
>;
>ScreenMode = 5
>ScreenWidth = 320
>ScreenHeight = 200

I had an S3 card and this setting alone had a nice boost on my framerate. Not to mention I recall Chained mode supporting all kinds of odd resolutions, even sub 320x200 if I recall (maybe that was Build only).

>>3442289
I don't remember if I tried any of these settings. I was 7-8 years old at the time, and I wasn't VERY tech savy on hardware stuff and computer. I knew some basic stuff and could navigate DOS but that was about it at the time.

Maybe that setting could have done wonders, a 486 DX4 100mhz is above the minimum requirements after all. I don't think I had any special card though.

I truely enjoyed DN3D more 4-5 years later when we upgraded to a 500mhz. Every time I upgraded to a new computer, the first thing I'd do was replay my fav games in higher settings, before checking new stuff.

>>3440980
>https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/04/13/build-engine-duke-nukem-blood-shadow-warrior/

Duke's emphasis on bike, mazelike levels always turned me off.

quake
this shouldn't even be a question tbfh

>>3440980
I've always preferred Duke, it just had a sense of personality and fun that Quake just didn't. Quake is just dull to me, even if it is the more technically impressive game.

>>3440980
Quake is better but Duke is also great.

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>>3441784
Well the Build engine itself got its source released first, then DN3D.
And Shadow Warrior got its sourcecode released as well.

Some people have actually tried hard to track down the people who may have the sourcecodes to all Build games, as well as the right owners.

But as far as Blood is concerned, whatever Jace Hall & co were up to, releasing the sourcecode was never considered.

As for emulating Blood, it's actually more demanding than other Build games in DOSbox, although anyone with a recent computer (2-3 years top) should be able to play it smoothly in 800*600, and there are other ways too like virtualmachine or trying specific version of DOSbox with different settings.

The problem for most people is that they are spoiled by sourceports. They pretend to play retro PC games but are allergic to typing a single command line in DOSbox.
So they'd rather play a shitty re-creation of the game in an inferior engine with the entire gameplay off or outright broken than to actually play Blood. It's for those people that it is important to have a real sourceport, but don't give up hope, I believe we will get one one way or another at some point.


>>3442398
>RPS link

Please don't. I haven't clicked on a single RPS link for years, since the release of Amnesia: The Dark Descent. RPS were the ones who leaked their press release of the game for piracy, before the game was even released.
For a site that claims so hard to be into PC gaming, you just don't do that to a small dev team of 3 passionate members who, at the time, were paying themselves half of the mininum wage while working 50h a week.

And I'm not even an uptight anti-piracy guy.

Fuckers.

>>3442407
It clearly is a question judging by this thread. I think Duke is better too.

Duke and the other Build engine games. Quake was boring to me and was the beginning of the end for first person shooters to me.

>>3440980
Quake by far

>>3442572
>So they'd rather play a shitty re-creation of the game in an inferior engine with the entire gameplay off or outright broken than to actually play Blood.
Is this a specific thing you're referring to? Does it by chance have something to do with lithtech and Blood 2?

>>3442957
He's probably talking about zBlood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofCLb9Y4b6M

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>>3442978
Uhhh ... oh... uhhh...

Who else thinks that the levels in Quake's 4th episode are just awful?

>>3442957
He's referring to the turd known as BloodCM.

>>3443496
It's definitely the weakest episode but I wouldn't call it awful. It has some cool parts regardless, like Pain Maze, which is one of the very best levels in the whole game.

>>3443524
That does sound backwards, converting blood gamedata to duke3d instead of extending the duke3d engine to have the capabilities the blood has.

>>3442572
>And Shadow Warrior got its sourcecode released as well.
Damn, about the only thing they haven't released is Balls of Steel, which would be exceptionally nice, but then it's understandable why they'd want to release a vertical screen version of it commercially, and I totally hope they do.

>>3443623
He didn't really 'convert' anything that wasn't aesthetic (i.e. textures, map design, sprites etc). Core mechanics were just his interpretation of the game... and even then he hardly bothered trying to get that accurate. It's not like he 'converted' actual Blood gameplay source code to eduke32.

>>3441730
you are a complete retard, avoid further posting on this board.

>>3443496

Elder World was literally a dumping ground for levels that didn't fit anywhere else. Scourge of Armagon is by and large better than ep4.

Pain Maze is good though. I also have a soft spot for Nameless City

Why do kids these days have to take apples and oranges and compare them?

>>3440980
Fucking Quake, are you retarded?

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I think they are both fine games. But if I had to pick then quake 1. Love the dark theme with fast, explosive action. While douk has great level design, quake just feels more compelling to me, especially Romero's levels.

Blood engine physics just don't feel right compared to Quake.

>>3441728
fucking stupid thing to say when doom had multiplayer and is held as the gold standard for fps

>>3443898
Doom had oligoplayer, exactly like goldeneye! We're talking polyplayer here!

As someone who played them both when they came out, duke nukem was better for me. The Sci fi theme was done really well, the weapons were more fun, it had items like the jetpack, and the levels were more appealing. Quake I remember had a cooler boss fight, but I just remember it being dull and not appealing to me. The weapons were ass too.
Of course that's my opinion as a ten year old. I recently have been playing both on saturn

Started playing Duke3D again because of this thread and I forgot how much detail and care was put into every level. Also the shotgun is god tier.

In weapon and player-actions variety, Duke blew everything out of the water. Jetpacks, shrink rays, shrink rays you used to explore smaller areas, the devastator, Duke had everything. I hated Duke's shotgun compared to other games for some reason, though.

In movement, I'd favor Quake for sure. Buttery smooth with momentum and bomb boosts.

Level design I'm willing to call even. The full Duke campaign has a few low points that drag it, but its urban sci fi is also better than anything in Quake.

But in terms of spooky enemies, encountering octobrains underwater in the dark > finding a shambler someplace cramped.

>>3443623
>extending the duke3d engine to have the capabilities the blood has.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it wouldn't be that possible. Blood's engine is very different than Blood. Basically, for every main Build game, what makes an "engine" is composed of two things: the Build code, the base that is common to every game, made by K. Silvermann and which devs of the games had no access to, and a game's code which each dev made their own.

More explanations here : http://fabiensanglard.net/duke3d/index.php

On top of that, the devs of Blood not being satisfied with Silvermann's work, reversed engineered the Build's code to make their own changes.

So Blood's engine largely differ from Duke's. It's not like they took DN3D's engine and improved it.

As for Blood's capabilities, EDuke32, which BloodCM uses, can do anything Blood could, either with similar things already built in (EDuke32's TRoR can do what Blood's RoR could do, and more) or because anyone has the freedom to code new effects or behaviour in EDuke32.

The problem is that, even if you really want to "extend DN3D"'s engine to be like Blood, with no Blood sourcecode, it remains entirely empirical, so the issue of accuracy would remain.

>>3443908
>I recently have been playing both on saturn

I'm sure you know that both game's Saturn versions are completely different than the original game. For DN3D, Lobotomy was able to convert some level design data to their engine, although they still had to modify and recreate a lot. For Quake they had to recreate the entire game. In both cases, the gameplay behaviour are different.

This being said they are interesting versions nonetheless. DN3D Saturn has a new secret level (which is more like a tech demo really) and all the secret levels of the Quake version are new as well.

>>3443908
>>3444432
Both games play using Lobotomy's Slavedriver engine which facinates me. They developed that engine, and Exhumed, at the same time as Quake was being developed (first version of Exhumed, on Saturn, was only released a few months after Quake) and the similarities are outstanding. True 3D engine with dynamic lights, enemies shots emit light, and even the kind of 3D level design they have is similar. Though I don't know how much of that was made before they saw Quake, it still is impressive.

I haven't played Quake Saturn yet, although it should actually arrive in my mailbox in a few days, I've been having full autism for Lobotomy's work of the time lately. Link related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRWhJSiRhBQ

>>3444438
Kinda looks like the first Prey engine from the alpha screens.

>>3441730
or just bad

>>3443706
you sound bad at video games lol

>>3441690
I changed my mind, Duke Nukem 3D has a lot of memorable levels.

>>3444461
Didn't that use the Quake engine?
I'm not too knowledgeable on Prey, I never even played it, but I remember what screens you're talking to, and yeah it totally has that Quake/Exhumed vibe.

I can't wait to play the Saturn Quake myself. Everyone says it's the best version of the SlaveDriver engine.

>>3441873
people who hate episode 2 are memeing faggots

>>3441873
This whole post makes me wonder if you've ever played DN3D and if you have, if you've ever gotten past the first level. Duke3D had tons of variety and creativity when it came to secrets and minimal wallhumping.

>>3445518
episode two isnt bad its a fucking grind compared to the other three and lifes a beach, and especially bad compared to any episode of quake or its expansions (yes even rogue).

>>3445656
yeah but compared to quake, a game with literally no wallhumping as it has no use button, it has more wallhumping. do you even know what a comparison is? if one is good one is worse, in a comparison of two one is bad, one is good. it is a polar comparison.

>>3445864
>liking episode 4
>meme's a bitch

No wonder you like Quake more than D3D.

>>3445889
if you dont like episode 4 or lifes a beach you plain dont like duke nukem 3d. ive never met a supposed fan more contrarian than you

>>3445148
The prey alpha used portals as a basic engine-pillar. An engine of such a type supposedly did seriously weird things. I never heard of it using the quake engine, apparently because they were so set on the portal wildness that they hadn't been hugely pumping it up if they couldn't do that.

>>3442289
320x200?? Maybe on a DX4-75. I'd expect a DX4-100 or 120 to be able to handle 320x400.

I ran duke3d on a 486dx33!

>>3446196
>reading comprehension

I had a DX2-66 by the way.

>>3446267
Oh, that explains it.

Errr, and I realize those 2.5D 3d shooters were actually surprisingly demanding, it probably must have required the DX4/120 to do 320x400 well...
http://cpu-museum.de/?m=AMD&f=Am486&pass=true#cpu0044
http://cpu-museum.de/?m=Cyrix&f=Cx486&pass=true#cpu0139
Though I do remember having had different standards back then.

>>3446009
I'm not the same guy Im the guy who originally said episode 2 isn't that bad. I think ep4 is awesome, I like ep3 the best though.

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Honest about Quake? The best part is Scourge of Amargeddon, which was in big part made by one of the main level designers of DN3D.

>>3446164
I guess all full3D FPS engines of that time look more or less the same.

>>3446338
Ah.

>>3443908
>>3444438
Speaking of Saturn Quake, I found an interview of one of the main devs of that version. Here is the interesting part:
>Brian: I always thought the single player Quake game was kind of boring. After the first couple of levels I didn't feel motivated to keep playing because there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for all of it other than to get to the next level. I would have added a strong story element that clarifies who you are, what your objective is, where you are, what time period you are in, and why you need to reach the end of the game.

http://www.goodcowfilms.com/farm/games/news-archive/Interview%20-%20Lobotomy.htm

Pic related but different interview.

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>>3446782

>>3443496
I thought it was the most fun part of the game by a large margin.

>>3446782
literally "its too videogamey", did people still think quake was going to be an rpg or something?

>>3446782
>Honest about Quake? The best part is Scourge of Amargeddon
lol it really isn't. that piece of shit expansion gets nothing on the original game. they don't even understand what made quake good in the first place.

>>3446782

>Honest about Quake? The best part is Scourge of Amargeddon

Holy fuck you have some weird opinions. You were wittering on about Silent Hill Homecoming not being shit earlier.

>>3446782

its called scourge of armagon

>>3447048
>>3447247
>>3447250
There are two things that I dislike about Quake which are good in the add-on. First, the levels are way too abstract. It's hard to get into them and to care because of that. Scourge of Amargon keeps Quake style 3D level design while groundings the levels in architecture and themes you can relate to.
Secondly the original Quake is full of shitty enemy placement. Unfair "fuck you" enemy placement, like they want to keep the player always on the edge, except it's executed in a terrible way, by using each enemy's specifities in the worst possible way. To this you have to add the stupid traps. Scourge's enemy placement is a lot more sensible and fair.

As for Homecoming I know there are only a handful of people in the world who'd probably agree with him, but I stand on it. Very underrated and highly misundertood game.

>>3447310
>Secondly the original Quake is full of shitty enemy placement. Unfair "fuck you" enemy placement, like they want to keep the player always on the edge, except it's executed in a terrible way, by using each enemy's specifities in the worst possible way. To this you have to add the stupid traps. Scourge's enemy placement is a lot more sensible and fair.
we've talked about this before and I explained to you why you're retarded. just because you say it doesn't mean it's true.

scourge is boring. the reason why quake was so good is because it really knew how to combine its level design with its enemies to create awesome engaging combat situations and dynamics. quake was all about traversing narrow pathways from which you could fall while fighting enemies upon them. You had to constantly be mindful of your surroundings lest you fall and die, or hit a nail with a trap, etc. Quake also utilised very claustrophobic design because it knew the strengths of its enemies and thus placed a much larger emphasis on using the right weapon for the right job. It also had fantastic verticality and due to the traps/enemy teleporting you were forced to constantly stay on guard and expect an attack from a full 360 degrees, above and below. The platforming elements were also much stronger. This is why it was so good. it fully expected you to be utilising KBM controls.

Scourge on the other hand was brain dead as fuck in comparison. For the most part you go from one big room to the next and take out a bunch of enemies sitting there in wait. There's not a modicum of thought of enemy dynamics and the importance of minding your environment is completely gone. Scourge is really dumb. played it once and never felt like touching it again and still haven't.

>>3447338
You know what, I'm willing to replay the add-ons and try to keep what you said in mind.

But Quake, I've already tried to give it a 2nd chance several times and always had the same feeling. I mean, it does get better once you know the enemy placement ahead, but I still can't stand so many combat scenarios.

I'm still going to replay it though on Saturn, but that's more due to my interest in Lobotomy Software and their SlaveDriver engine than to Quake itself.

>>3447247
>>3447338
Different anon here, I agree with you that Scourge is more "boring" in the sense you mean because it does play it too safe with enemy placement and the more realistic mapping. It's kind of a like a proto-Half Life in its mapping approach. More emphasis on stuff that LOOKS cool and less emphasis on devious dungeon master-style traps and encounters.

But, I still like playing Scourge more because the maps are all balanced for a shotgun start. You can warp to any level and start playing, whereas vanilla Quake maps get absurdly hard if you warp to anything later in the episode. For that reason alone I find Q1 base maps to be much less replayable and harder to appreciate.

>>3447338
scourge is good for that reason, sometimes I just want to go into a group of enemies fuck them up with mjolnir and feel like a god. Working with the environment isn't as important as you think it is.

>>3447437
Give it an open mind. Accept the claustrophobic enemy placement and love the level design that makes great use of it.

>>3447437
>I'm still going to replay it though on Saturn
Well of course you're going to hate it that way. You wanna play quake with high frame rate and with kbm. Gimping yourself by playing it on Saturn will undoubtedly make you hate it. Those encounters sure as fuck aren't designed for controllers and low fps. You won't even be able to go to the weapon you want to immediately without scrolling through the whole belt. Plus no bunnyhopping, rocket jumping, etc

>>3447437
>>3447310
i have beaten quake and several fan addons on nightmare before i even knew its enemy placements. i had beaten quake before but nightmare added even more enemies to keep me on my toes, beat several fan addons on nightmare first time if i could find it though. you learn spawns though and patterns to keep yourself alive, and all levels are "pistol start possible" so it works out in the end. you can dodge vore rockets by just moving in a circle, you can dodge a shambler just by moving left, the only hitscan enemy in the game can be stunned with a single shotgun shell, it is a very fair game

>>3447247
>>3447250
>>3447275
Is either of those add ons playable with a source port? Doesn't have to be perfect.

>>3447887
yup, you can play scourge through quakespasm

>>3447820
>you can dodge a shambler just by moving left
nope. you can't outstrafe his lightning beam. either do the shambler dance, pop in and out of cover or stay out of his range.

>>3447962
oh shit im sorry i meant fiend. i never really learned the enemies names.

Both are great but quite different games. I think Quake is better, but skip on the nightmare mode.

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>>3447975
yeah you gotta do a hard strafe to dodge the hoppers. also, thanks for pic related.

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>>3440980
>Which 1996 game was the better shooter, /vr/?
Quake = more tech.
Duke = more fun.
Case dismissed, faggots.