Misunderstood Characters

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I feel the same way about Lilith in Vampire Savior.

>>3378768
Dan is literally a joke character meant only to shame your opponents. He's as shitty as they come but completely on purpose. Trying to compently use Dan is a waste of time.
>>3378785
Lilith isn't a joke character like Dan though, just not as good as most other characters in VS. Learning her is not recommended but she is playable and some players have made her worked.

>>3378812
There are people who use Dan professionally in tournaments. In the newer games especially they made him pretty good.

>>3378827
They use him mostly for lulz and for the heck of it. In SFIV Dan is one of the weakest characters; picking him is a ballsy move because you'd have to offset his weakness with lots of skill.

>>3378768
Dan is Capcom pointing fun at SNK for ripping them off. He's a fusion of Ryo Sakazaki (black shirt underneath a gi, constant claims his karate stye is the strongest) and Robert Garcia (ponytail) from Art of Fighting.

His taunts parody Art of Fighting's system: in the game you could taunt an opponent to lower their super meter. So, Dan can taunt sitting, jumping or even rolling.

His move names resemble quite a bit those of Ryu and Ken; a nod to the fact that Ryo/Robert were pretty much copied from them.

His super is a parody of Ryuko Ranbu, the move from AoF which looks like a barrage of punches and kicks ending in a shoryuken-like uppercut.

>>3379006
How about that.
Seems obvious now, but I never really paid attention to that.

>>3379213
See this vid for some footage of the game (Ryo) https://youtu.be/_0wgcngGqME?t=2m1s (note the character making taunts and crying "Ora Ora!")

Also, this is Robert's super from the game: https://youtu.be/VhoU81ghuqY?t=1m39s (1m 39 second mark if it doesn't start automatically)

It's a bit broader, but I think a lot of people misunderstand charge characters.

Chargers aren't slow or crippled if you learn HOW to charge.

Yes—it might seem like a pain in the ass to constantly keep charging down-back. But what people don't realize is that chargers often redeem this with more powerful normal and special moves. Take Guile/Charlie for example.

After you learn it, it can be even easier to do than quarter circles. You waste no time pressing 'down', you just press direction+attack.

And now for the character which people really don't understand: K' from KoF.

Most pick him because he's a cool-looking hero like Terry or Ryo, and assume he's as easy as them. On the contrary, he's far from being a newbie-friendly character. He has great potential, but to play him well you need to learn much longer than, say, Terry, whose only big trick is either charging Rising Tackle or his goddamn df+P command normal.

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>>3378827
Who mains Dan? Don't link Justin Wong and Air's set. Dan is a character that clearly demonstrates the disconnect between artists and designers. Artists just do a bunch of spriteart and collect a paycheck, designers make the intentional decision to make them bad. It's a huge disservice to the player that there's this waste of a character slot in the game. At least by Arcade Edition someone at Capcom finally thought "Hey maybe we should make people actually want to play as Dan", even though he wasn't even the worst character in the Street Fighter 4 series.

>>3379614
Ixion https://youtu.be/4_ICI7wjobw

>>3379006
>picking him is a ballsy move because you'd have to offset his weakness with lots of skill.

That's the whole point of the game: acquiring that level of skill. It's the ultimate objective, impossible as it may be.

If that's not someone's thing... they play Overwatch and League.

Dan is Ryo Sakazaki on SF. As I main AoF team on SnK games so I'm fine with him. Also he's fun as fuck to use in SvC Chaos.

inb4 unironically liking SvC Chaos

I'd love to see Dan in SFV now that SNK's back in the game, and they even copied one of Dan's Ultras for Yuri. He could be actually good if they tried.

>>3379681
There's skill, and then there's just being weak. Look at Melee Kirby, no amount of skill can change the fact that you can break out of his throws while he's doing them. Sure, Dan isn't that carelessly low-tier, but he's certainly not as capable as the others.

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He's got amazing attack range, but he's honestly much better as a pressure/rushdown character. I'm sure this has fooled everyone who has tried to play him at some point.

>>3379681
To add to what >>3379792 said: do you even understand tiers?

You know, let's say you're playing against Justin Wong or Daigo. You will get your ass handed to you, no matter if they play Dan and you play some top-tier character like Evil Ryu.

But imagine Justin Wong playing against Daigo. They are players of a similar class. This is where character tiers decide battles, or even whole tournaments.

Just look at every big 3rd Strike tournament result. The top is usually made of Chun Lis with some degree of Yuns. Or take UMVC3—it's always the same characters. Of course it's good to pretend you just need to git (insanely) good and you can beat everyone. And of course there are many great and successful players who use obscure characters.

But there's a limit to that. When all your combo possibilities are shit, when your normals allow little control—this is just unfair. You don't need to be a pro to tell that Chun Li is better than Sean in 3rd Strike. Or that Dan is a joke compared to combo possibilities of Evil Ryu.

One more example: recently, I watched a Japanese SFII arcade event, where the top E. Honda player played against everyone else for an hour or so (I apologize—I can't find the link anywhere now). He beat almost everyone, but half of the time he lost to Ryus. Not even super amazingly good Ryus too. And that's why people don't play Honda very often.

Dan is actually never THE worst character in any of his games, but you have to be a serious n00b to think that he compares to Ryu or Ken. I can only think of exactly one game where Ryu and Dan were about the same and that was MVC2. Ken and Dan were never in the same leagues.

>>3381384
I think he's actually near top tier in one of the crossover games, I can't remember exactly which though.

In SF4 he's actually mid-tier but that's not /vr/

OP is incorrect anyway, people still play these games competitively and the tiers and matchup rankings still get updated. It was only this or last year that they updated the tiers for Vampire Savior again putting Anakaris as absolute bottom tier.

Tiers assume competence with the character and equal skill between players. So if you can go 50-50 with someone as Dan you're likely just better than them.

>>3378812
>>3378827
There was that one year where the IaMP tournament winner was a Hong Meiling player. There's nothing wrong with joke characters in fighting games

>>3379614
>Dan is a character that clearly demonstrates the disconnect between artists and designers. Artists just do a bunch of spriteart and collect a paycheck, designers make the intentional decision to make them bad.
He's a parody of the Art of Fighting main characters. They knew what they were doing from the start.

>>3379614
Do you not get the concept of a joke character? One that is actually kind of shitty, but if you pick them and beat your opponent despite using a shitter it makes you look even better?

That's Dan's whole shtick. As has been pointed out he's supposed to be a joke about AoF characters not having full screen fireballs and is a mix between Ryo and Robert.

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Is this the fighting game thread? If it is, I have a template for anyone who wants to share the fighting game mains.

>>3386704
Go away kid. Adults are talking. For the love of god you even had to ask what type of thread this is with your stolen lame template.

>>3380151
I mean it helps that Honda has good matchups against almost every character that doesn't have a fireball

>>3384019
>AoF characters not having full screen fireballs
But they do, it's just that the fireball doesn't travel very far when they are low on chi meter

>>3386892
So… Sagat is out, Dhalsim is out, and so are Chun, Guile, Ken, Dee Jay… That's a lot of bad matchups for 1 character.

But yeah, the player I was watching ripped everyone else to shreds. It was painful to watch, I didn't know E.Honda had so many tricks.

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>>3386923
Actually, this is kinda interesting…

Have you played KoF'96? That's where SNK actually cut the fireball range for almost all players, especially AoF team (see picrelated). Kyo lost his projectile altogether; Terry's Power Wave range was cut as well. From all players, only Iori pretty much retained all his old move properties.

I guess this was a part of the big shift when 2D fighting games started toning down fireballs in general. Capcom went another way: they simply made Hadoken hit much weaker. Still OK for zoning, but not for damage.

But this was AFTER Dan was introduced, which is kinda weird.

>>3379614
>Super Turbo Dan.gif
>not STREETEST FIGHTER.gif

>>3378768
No, he can't be just as good as Ken or Ryu unless.
Becoming good with a weak character and beating other people who use better characters doesn't mean your character has suddenly become good too, you cannot account the skill of the player when measuring how good that character is, that makes no sense.

A good player winning with a bad character doesn't change the fact that the character is bad, the character itself doesn't change in relation to other characters, it is still bad and weak, the shitty framedata and low priority moves are still there, it's the skill of the player that is making the difference.
Why some people have trouble with something so simple to understand?

>>3386934
maybe he was having fun?

>>3378768

>There is literally NOTHING wrong with Shitposting. If you learn how to bait hard enough it can be just as good as starting quality threads.

Tiers are exactly why fighting games suck. Characters should have varied fighting styles, sure, but straight up being better than the other just means there is no point in using like a third of the roster.

>>3387296
GIT
U
D

>>3387296

You're dumb. If all characters were equally good then there would be absolutely no point in using the difficult to play ones. Good balance is all about rewarding those who strive to master those difficult executions.

>>3387308
The whole problem with tiers is that there is no getting good. X choice will always be inferior to Y choice, because the designers choose for it to be that way.

>>3387312
Moves being difficult is not quite the same as "this character has 100 on all his stats and super fast moves while this other character has 50 in all his stats and his moves are slower, with lower priority while dealing lower damage"

>>3381747
Probably SvCChaos. He was pretty good in that, comparatively.

>>3387296
>but straight up being better than the other just means there is no point in using like a third of the roster.
Outside of joke characters and "usually banned in tournaments final bosses", I don't believe this is designer intent - it's just rather hard to balance asymmetric systems with a whole ton of factors.

>>3387321
Pretty much what >>3387821 said.

Some characters are just too different. E.g. Zangief, Ryu and Guile are a grappler, a shoto, and a charger, respectively. There are also completely unique ones like Dhalsim or E. Honda.

How do you truly balance it all perfectly? Play every matchup a hundred times during beta testing? It's hard enough to patch infinite combos in the game. That's part of why fighting games have so many editions. Slightest touches to the game can alter it in a big way, not to mention bugs like kara cancels exist, and so on.

Also, 'tiers' usually refer to high-level competitive play. So, e.g., a character might be a medium tier for intermediate players, but high tier for pros. (e.g., Kim Kaphwan in KoF and his broken cancel in '98). No one really overpowers characters deliberately—maybe only for the sake of popularity boost (see KoF, and only to a slight degree).

>>3387913
>Also, 'tiers' usually refer to high-level competitive play.
All of what that guy said, especially this part. Individual player skill usually matters much more than how good or bad a character is. And most fighting game creators spend a lot of effort on making the characters each unique enough to be interesting but also balanced against each other.

That's very difficult to do though which is why you notice that pretty well anyone who plays retro fighters at all seriously plays either Capcom or SNK ones.

Also of note, character tier orders will also change depending on skill. Blanka's electricity for example is considered cheap by a lot of low level players who don't know how to deal with it leading them to think he's an unfairly balanced character. While at high level play he's really not and the usefulness of the electric attack is actually very situational.

>>3384019
Joke characters aren't always shitty though.

>>3387935
Well... silly characters aren't necessarily shitty and they could be called joke characters in a way. Shingo is a perfect example in that regard, but he's not a joke character the way Dan is. He's a parody, but not designed to be bad as a usable character.

>>3386934
>But yeah, the player I was watching ripped everyone else to shreds. It was painful to watch, I didn't know E.Honda had so many tricks.

video pls

>>3387929
>the usefulness of the electric attack is actually very situational.
When is best to use it?

>>3388626
It's mostly good for anti-air and especially shutting down cross ups. Otherwise it's not very safe unless you're fighting idiots.

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Dan is great but Norimaro is better.

fucking god tier character.

>>3388654
0/10

>>3387296
This isn't a problem exclusive to fighting games.

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>>3378768
>>3378768
>There is literally NOTHING wrong with Dan. If you learn how to use him he can be just as good as Ken/Ryu.

Who have you been playing against OP?

Just because you can beat the CPU with Dan doesn't mean he's actually a good character.

When you use Dan against someone with less skill than you and take advantage you can best them

But when you face someone as skilled or more skilled than you, someone who actually knows how to use the opposing character I can tell you, that's when you can start seeing Dan's shortcomings

Believe me if he was as serviceable as you say he would appear in EVO more.

Think about it, these guys spend hours working on a character to get good with them, at a certain point Dan hits a ceiling because there's only so much you can do with him.

Pic unrelated

He has the strongest Hyper Combo in MvC2, which was fun to land on people that didn't know about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go5SIUY1_O4

Sorry for the weeb music but the other video I found took like 7 secs to execute it properly. The command is also the inverse of Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu, which made me chuckle.

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>>3389682
>attempts the raging demon
>fucks it up and almost kills himself

>>3389682
Didnt Dan have a side story where Sagat killed his father and he ended up using raging demon to Sagat's ass?

>>3389740
*kick Sagat's ass

>>3389740
>>3389741
This was after Sagat reformed, he purposely lost the fight on purpose as he knew if Dan continued seeking revenge he would go do the same path as he had with Ryu.

Dan is meant to be a joke, he should be as absolutely shit as possible and anyone who thinks he should be redone to be a actual character you don't understand the character.

>>3379625
Something bugs me about that video. Part way in he's fighting a Cody that barely loses. Dan wins the first round and the screen fades. When it comes back, they both have a win each and the 'wins' has gone from 22 to 19.

Something isn't right about this.

Hyped for Evil Dan on SFV
Maybe that way he would not suck so much
You know you want it. Embrace it, anon

>>3389764
there's nothing wrong
it's a compilation about ixion dan's kicking ass, not about him losing. this guy makes compilations of players who have won at least a single championship

even the SUPER meter is different, so it's obviously it's two different matches.

>>3389780
Not interested in 5 until Sakura is on the roster. Yes, I'm that much of a Sakurafag. Then again, I only started 4 a couple of weeks ago, so it's tiding me over pretty well.

>>3389870
Cranky's advice: how about you learn to play the fucking game first

>>3389384
Not OP here. When I played SFIV I mained Sagat, but my second go to was always Dan. He is bad, but he's not complete trash in that game. Which makes wins possible, you just really have to work for them and when you do it feels extra good. I would pull him out when I met someone I'd fought before and won, to then see if I could do it with Dan. I would never do it in a tournament probably, but I'm not interested in tourney play anyways. I just like playing randoms.

Also helps that I'm mainly a KoF player, and so it doesn't feel as unnatural to play him.

>>3380151
This is exactly why tiers shouldn't exist. It's a huge flaw in the fighting genre. Every character should be potentially good as every other character. SFV finals at EVO were terrible because it was almost all just Nashes and Chuns. I think the one Mika player just got lucky to get that far because by all accounts she sucks. And big surprise, he lost to a Nash. When you have one single character continually dominating everyone your game is broken.

>>3390753
that's simply impossible to achieve

>>3390849
I don't think so. You just have to start with a small roster and slowly add to it. SFV probably launched with too many characters so they didn't have time to test them all out, let alone add more.

>>3390753
It's funny how you say tiers are a huge flaw and then point out that the finals at EVO were terrible because it was almost all MID-TIER characters

>>3390753
I get your point and agree with almost everything you said. SFV situation is how it SHOULDN'T be. Obviously, everything in fighters should be as balanced as possible.

But you see, balancing fighting games is not such a trivial task as you picture it. You seem to imply that "tiers" are deliberately put in games, or at least that developers can "get rid" of them. In fact, they are anything but that. Today, developers often barely have time to find and fix major bugs; now imagine what balancing a fighting game feels like. With just 16 characters, you have about 256 matchups to check; make sure you don't have infinites/match-breaking stuff; and yet, meet the demand for all-new moves/characters/etc.

Now, SFV was officially released in February. It is the early edition of the game, so it's bound to have imperfections, just like with every previous SF game. SF Alpha 1? Check the damage of Ken's shoryuken and the priority of Nash's flash kick. SF3? Broken as all fuck, just see Alex's command grab, and that's the top of the iceberg. SFIV? Infamous for its top-tiers like Zangief.

The only "real" way to fine-tune a fighter is after the release. This way, you will get real feedback from players who know the game through and through, who find bugs, infinite combos, unblockable setups and all that; they are the biggest and the best testing group there can be.

And you know, for the first time, I'm sure Capcom will listen and fix things. SFV is the first game in the series which won't have "editions" sold separately. I'm almost sure they're readying a major update, which will fix the balance and all that. This was exactly what happened with Super SFIV, SFIII 3S, and so on. It might happen sooner or later, but they'll get to it.

>>3390753
Tiers don't exist because people plan them, they exist because it's impossible to make characters that are different enough with each being 100% as balanced as each other. You really don't understand this genre at all. It's embarrassing to read your posts about them.

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>>3389060
>0/10

good, because I wasn't baiting. I main Norimaro + Dan in MSHvsSF.

>>3390753
>>3390906
Finally, a little about the balance in fighters general. Fighting games are incredibly sensitive to seemingly insignificant changes. A range/hitbox of certain normal can make a hell of a difference for a character when it comes to competitive play. Heck, 1 frame difference can sometimes be a game-changer.

Moreover, fighting games have evolved to the point when basic move properties alone are but a fraction of what makes a character. There are things like okizeme, option selects, frame traps, cross-ups, and so on and so forth. Intermediate players often don't even know these terms; but in tournaments, this is all part of the invisible mindgame.

Now imagine trying to balance it all out in several months of testing, when you're blissfully unaware that your game has some new bug, like, for example, kara cancel. Or that the 1 frame difference you made to some move allows for some unblockable setup some Taiwanese player will find 2 years later.

The only real way to balance everything out is to make every character the same. But, this would basically kill the fighting game genre, and take it 25 years back. Who'd play the game in which there's basically only 1 character to choose from? If it would be such a great idea—why aren't there tournaments in which you can only play, say, Ryu?

In the end, you know, arguing about fighters is like saying that chess is overhyped and broken, because queen is by far the top-tier, that there's no use to rooks, and it's a deliberately flawed game which hasn't been patched for millennia which everyone plays just out of habit. It just makes you wonder: then how does it still get such a huge tournament activity?

With all this said, SF as a series holds the highest standard of balance among almost all competitive fighting games. There's almost never any truly broken stuff in it, like obvious infinite combo setups and such, and whenever there's some broken stuff found in SFIV or V, Capcom rushes to fix it.

>>3387296
I love this meme

>>3390926

>Zangief's giant fucking bulge

I swear to god, 90's capcom fighters are the reason I ended up this way. So much detail put into toned asses and bulges.

>>3390926
Using Dan and Nori is cool. Referring to them as god tier is being a tryhard special snowflake.

>>3390906
>>3390945
This guy gets it.

All this serious talk is pretty boring. Whatever happened to punching people in the face and having fun doing it?

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>>3391047
It's so much more fun when you really get everything that's going on. You're still punching people in the face and having fun. But it's so much better when you're not just randomly flailing and getting upset that the MK2 AI keeps beating you.

>>3390906
I heard Capcom won't patch V until at least a year because they don't want to anger people by changing their characters just as soon as they learn them. But to me it'll piss them off even more if they spend a year learning them then have to start all over.

>>3391047
2D fighters are bound by the Street Fighter II dogma of tactical gameplay, which puts strategy above everything else.

I think there are 2 main reasons for this:

1) Most popular fighting games are made by Japanese devs, who are never shy of torturing the player, are known to favor skill (see shmups), and don't often make games which are all "dude just relax lmao ITS JUST A GAME BRO DONT BE SUCH A VIRGIN";

2) The big player base (a big part of which is Japanese players) of 2D fighting games can be potentially lost if the genre goes different way.

Plus, if you haven't noticed this yet, 3D fighters have long ago filled the niche for "easy and fun" games in the genre. Stuff like SoulCalibur can be learned intuitively in several minutes, unlike Street Fighter or KoF, where mashing one button Eddie Gordo-style won't get you even past first stages of story mode.

Well, why don't devs just make games about punching people in the face? I don't really know, but it's not like that niche is a goldmine today. Fight Night and UFC games sell alright, but nowhere near other sports games, in 1–1,5 million copies range. Soulcalibur V had very disappointing sales, not to mention Japanese don't like neither SoulCalibur or Tekken very much. Meanwhile, pretty promising ideas like Def Jam: Fight for NY never really went anywhere. It seems the public are just more hyped about shooters and RPGs.

On the other hand, tournament-ready fighters have been experiencing a revival of sorts, started with SFIV and solidified with MKIX and X. SFV has been doing a little less, but given how early it was released, it's not unexpected.

>>3391143
Yep, this is another issue. As I said, every slight change matters in fighting games—even if those are fixes. If they start just randomly making changes all the time without notice, hardcore fighters will just quit.

In arcades, different redactions are important to pro players, and they are usually marked as ver. a, ver. b and so on. Given that SFV allegedly focused on eSports community, it's safe to say that if Capcom will start shitting out a patch after a patch named like v. 1.498495805c, it will produce complete confusion and potentially make big names like Justin Wang and Diego "DA BEASS" Umejuarez quit.

I guess they just want to stick to the old early update schedule to not confuse anyone and because it has been tried and worked, more or less.

>>3391195
>>3391143
It's not a problem at all. No one wants constant changes. Let the game mature for a year until players have really learned the ins and outs of things and then look at what needs balance and go from there. It's not a problem at all.

>>3390970
Sure, focus entirely on the dicks. Never mind the DD chests the girls had.

>>3391253
Yeah, the average players who shout "oh my god top-tiers beat everyone again what the fuck" can't even mixup properly and don't understand that tournaments are for a different level of play than spamming DPs online.

1 year is still very early to say anything, people still find new things in the game. It used to be like this back in the day when SFIV was released: a ot of people still wondered what that mysterious "focus attack" did and how to incorporate it in the gameplay. Later, people mastered it and the level of playing went really high up.

>>3390906
>Check the damage of Ken's shoryuken and the priority of Nash's flash kick.

Details please? Alpha 1 is the only one I never beat.

>>3391195
>If they start just randomly making changes all the time without notice, hardcore fighters will just quit.

aka the Ed Boon method

>>3390945
This is why Smash Bros will more or less remain unbalanced forever. The half-hearted efforts to deal with the community, combined with the ever-growing roster of characters from different franchises, results in a game where characters are more or less unfixable.

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>>3391338
https://youtu.be/JtaGoOC5-Y0 1:05 mark—check the damage. Around 30% damage with one move

As for Nash/Charlie, his Flash Kick beat pretty much everything in SFA, much like Shoryuken, except bigger. Here's his SFA2 one—I heard it didn't change from SFA. Red is where he can hit you, blue is where you can hit him. As you can see, it's almost impenetrable—the most broken anti-airs from KoF aren't THAT broken.

>>3391404
>As you can see, it's almost impenetrable

Doesn't any shoryuken move have complete invincibility during the rising motion though? That would make them inarguably better in everything but forward range and perhaps damage. You can fly through super combos with a shoryuken.

or was that VS series only, I don't remember.

>>3391404
What's the green box?

>>3391413
Only in SFII, most other games only have invincibility on certain strengths, frames, and areas. In SFV, medium Shoryuken has the most, so it is used for anti-airs, while light is used for reversals and heavy is used for combos.

>>3391439
I think it's the location box.

>>3391439
The green box is your hurtbox.
If another opponent's hitbox (red) comes into contact with it, you'll get hit

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>>3391387
Yep. It's ironic Melee made such a big return. It's not like Gamecube was as huge as Wii in US.

But I think it just shows the invisible conflict between between the different groups of fighting game players: casual players who mostly want new/returning characters, better graphics, story—overall, new content; and hardcore players who want better/new mechanics, better balance and so on.

>>3391413
Well, it's common for different anti-airs to have invincibility on the first several frames—see picrelated. Yep, Ryu does indeed have invincibility at the very beginning, but as soon as he soars in mid-air it's gone. Also, note how the red box is not as huge, it's pretty narrow if anything. Not to mention SRK is slower and very, very unsafe.

>>3391439
IIRC it's a "pushbox", or collision box—the actual body of the character, which you can't walk into unless you push it or jump over it. Either that or grab box

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>>3391491
Then what's the blue box? Isn't the Lariat supposed to be immune to fireballs?

>>3391491
Sorry mate, green box is the collision box. It's just the thing you can't walk though.

Blue box is the hurtbox. That's why in >>3391498 , I'm saying Ryu is invincible—there's no blue boxes meaning you can't him anywhere, literally.

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>>3391513
That's weird. Just about every other fighting game uses green for hurtboxes. My bad.

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>>3391338
>>3391404
>>3391498
…And now compare this to Dan. Actually, on the startup, it has invincibility, but as soon as it starts its obvious how vulnerable it is

>>3391539
Why does the blue extend so far outside of his body? How can you hit him where he doesn't even exist?

>>3391547
It's a joke.

>>3391498
I guess that's why NRS games sell so well, they put the casuals first and the hardcore players second. I suppose it's like how old MK had mediocre gameplay, but tons of gore and photorealistic actors, so kids loved it.

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>>3391547
That's the whole joke about Dan. And this is what people call "priority". The thing is, there's no "priorities" in fighting games—there are only hitboxes and hurtboxes. That's it. When talking about priority, people mean that a move has hitbox bigger/smaller than hurtbox.

Look at picrelated. Vega's slash reaches long, but it's hurtbox is even bigger. That's the way it's balanced, that's why you can't spam it all day. And this is also why Dhalsim can be hit from the other side of the stage when he extends his hands, btw.

Now look what >>3391502 said. Lariat is indeed "supposed" to be "immune" to fireballs.

But in reality, it's all just a meme. There's literally just a whole in his hurtbox. Exactly in the middle, where hadokens fly. Yep, it's that simple. Yep, he can be sweeped or hit with a high fireball indeed. Same with Cammy.

>>3391572
Well I agree to an extent, but I watched the recent tournaments and was pleasantly surprised. MK used to be really funny, but pretty broken too back in the day. Now they got way more serious.

In any case, NRS gets one thing right: they make games fun for the Western auditory. MK used to be a b-movie, but a hugely entertaining one. MK is like Twisted Metal, but a fighting game. It had a very immediate appeal with its spectacle. How it would fare in Japan with all that? Probably worse than in US.

Meanwhile, Namco keeps a pretty Japanese character design/story in Tekken, while it barely manages to sell 100 thousands copies every time in Japan itself. They even hired Clamp to design some costumes for T6, I remember. They continue to guess what the West will like and what they won't, while it gives them most of their profits.

>>3391585
Does anyone have high fireballs in that game? I forget.

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>>3391627
I meant to say "Sagat", but here's the irony: you can see his fireball comes right below Zangief's hurtbox, with no gap at all. Everything was computed pretty well. So, looks like even Sagat can't hit him, so I doubt anyone can.

On a side note, it always surprises me how small the hitboxes for fireballs really are.

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>>3391547
>>3391585

By the way, this is a great video showing what I'm talking about: https://youtu.be/-qlAaEQo0L0

Dhalsim is the best example of how hurtboxes work: basically, his limbs are considered part of his body. So if his limb is hit, it counts like a punch straight to the body.

This is exactly what happened in the video: Dhalsim player spammed his punch too carelessly, and he paid for it.

>>3390753
>fuudo got lucky
no bitch. bitch no. fuck. no.

>>3384019
I already pointed out why joke characters have generally been a bad tradition in fighting games. If you pick Dan for the first time while playing a game in the arcade you're basically being told by the developer you wasted your money for the sake of a company injoke.

>>3392284
>If you pick Dan for the first time while playing a game in the arcade you're basically being told by the developer you wasted your money for the sake of a company injoke.

And what you don't get is that if you're that ignorant about the game when you play it, you have as much chance of winning as if you had picked the best character. It's not like if you pick Sagat or Ken instead of Dan you're going to breeze through the game.

>>3392284
>bad tradition in fighting games
Well first of all, how many true "joke" characters in fighting games do you know? Not just funny, but deliberately weaker than others? I can name only Dan. It's not a tradition, where did you get that from?

> If you pick Dan for the first time while playing a game in the arcade you're basically being told by the developer you wasted your money for the sake of a company injoke.
And why don't you mention the insane learning curve of 2D fighters and hard to use characters instead?

"Wasted your money"? So, like, a quarter or so? Dude, you'd waste hundreds of quarters on SFII before you could even beat the single mode. For beginners, Dan's weaknesses don't even mean much—his normals and specials are alright and don't make the game unfair. If you think you can just waltz into an arcade all alone and get into Street Fighter having zero previous experience, you're wrong.

In the worst case, you'd just know he was a joke from magazines/word of mouth.

>>3390945
>The only real way to balance everything out is to make every character the same.

It worked for MK. Giving everyone the same normals was fine, and 2-3 specials weren't enough to break any character and make them dominate.

>>3392715
You would have an excellent point, if MK wasn't known for having terrible balance.

>>3392715
Re-read these posts carefully.
>>3390906
>>3390945
It's far harder to balance a fighter well than you think it is.

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>>3379614
>calling based Dan a waste of a character slot
>not playing with a handicap
>mfw winning 2v1s with Dan in SFA3

>>3394209
It seems like it would be easy.

- give everyone the same normals
- make each type do the same damage
- give everyone 3 specials, overhead, medium, low
- make each type do the same damage

I think it's when they start assigning weird arbitrary numbers that things run away from them really fast.

>>3394663
So, a game has essentially 1 character with different skins.

>>3394209
Well, I didn't even touch most aspects of fighting games in my message. I just listed the challenges most understandable to casual players. Of course it goes without saying that balancing a fighting game is not a trivial task—it's so multifaceted and complex that my message only touches the tip of the iceberg.

People think it's like balancing an action game; in reality it's more like balancing a strategy with 30+ different factions.

>>3394663
Wow... If you make the characters too similar, you're left with a game that's boring as fuck. If you think anything that they do is arbitrary you really don't understand any of this at all.

>>3394918
Exactly, if he doesn't understand even the basics of balancing, which he clearly doesn't then he's completely lost. That shouldn't be too hard for anyone to understand if they really try though.

>>3378768
Ryu is misunderstood as the vast majority don't know how to pronounce his name correctly.

>>3398143
citation please

>>3390753
>It's a huge flaw in the fighting genre. Every character should be potentially good as every other character.
That's nonsense. There aren't limited "slots" for characters, and outside of serious competition, a field of stronger and weaker characters makes it more interesting for new players and gives you more options for recreational play.

I remember one of the fun things about SFII when it was new was trying all the different characters and learning which ones were better. It was a very exciting process which kept us putting quarters in the machine. For instance, Dhalsim seemed to have a major advantage with his reach, and Ryu and Ken looked kind of boring and weak until you learned the "secret moves".

It's also difficult to make a case that the situation where just one character is better than the others is bad for competitive play, especially compared to the situation where the characters have advantages over each other, but none is clearly best. If everyone uses the same character, then it's a contest of skill. If Ryu had an advantage over Chun-Li, who had an advantage over Guile, who had an advantage over Ryu, you'd turn the tournaments into rock-paper-scissors contests.

>>3386947
>Capcom went another way: they simply made Hadoken hit much weaker.

No, they added the parry, and then the V-ism activate.

>>3398463
Dollars to doughnuts the guy who thinks that kind of balance would work or be good was the one saying he thought Mortal Kombat was did it right. >>3392715

>>3398507
The trouble with Mortal Kombat is more philosophical than in a detail like that. It had less lasting value than SFII because they relied on fancy graphics and shock value to amuse the player and had the attitude of only making the gameplay "good enough".

SFII with only Ryu would still be a better game of skill than Mortal Kombat. In fact, that was basically the case in the original game: the other characters were just to amuse the noobs, make the 1-player interesting, and for handicapping. Having Ryu and Ken as the only two with identical gameplay characteristics was a subtle hint that these plain-looking guys were the strongest characters once you mastered them.

However, I remember that Mortal Kombat drew everyone away from the SFII machine when it came out. It wasn't a clearly worse game overall, it provided a lot of fun, it was just less attractive in the long run to hardcore players, because it had nothing you could basically play forever like the Ryu vs. Ken matchup.

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>>3398557
>SFII with only Ryu would still be a better game of skill than Mortal Kombat.

Possibly, but it would also be far more boring. MK's problem has nothing to do with philosophy and everything to do with Boon and the other people at NRS simply not being as skilled at making fighters as Capcom was (and is). And that despite the fact that they make much simpler fighters than Capcom, their game have always had more balance issues than the competition from Japan.

All this comes from someone who is a far bigger fan of MK than I ever was of Capcom. To this day, Injustice is still one of my favorites. King of Fighters / SNK is still absolute top in my preferences but I've always liked MK more than SF and most other Capcom fighters. I just know the games well enough to also be able to tell that from an objective gameplay standpoint SF is a much better and far more competitive series than MK is.

>>3398729
> I just know the games well enough to also be able to tell that from an objective gameplay standpoint SF is a much better and far more competitive series than MK is.
>from an objective gameplay standpoint
>much better and far more competitive series
This is bullshit, which is why you're hedging by saying "objective gameplay standpoint" instead of "objective standpoint" and "better and more competitive" instead of just "better". That way, if I call bullshit on your "game is objectively better" you can try defending it as "gameplay is more competitive" and go on implying that they're the same thing.

The people making Mortal Kombat had a different philosophy and priorities than the people making Street Fighter. Deeply competitive gameplay was just not a goal, and not something they'd sacrifice things like production value for. Judging it by the depths of its competitive gameplay and then just claiming the designers were less skilled is unreasonable.

Competitive depth actually has a lot of disadvantages. For one thing, it tends to associate your brand with obsessive losers. For another, it makes the game unfun to play with people of different skill levels. In smaller arcades, if That Guy got on the SFII machine, the other people would just leave it alone until he left.

>>3398823
None of it is bullshit. MK is nowhere near as deep as SF when you really get down to it. You can say it's because it wasn't their goal or because they weren't as good and we'll honestly never know, but the difference is there.

>Competitive depth actually has a lot of disadvantages. For one thing, it tends to associate your brand with obsessive losers.

But here you've shown your colors as probably the board's resident super shitter which makes the rest of what you're saying make more sense. We're done here, you've proven yourself too stupid to even bother trying to explain this stuff to anymore.

>>3398861
>>That way, if I call bullshit on your "game is objectively better" you can try defending it as "gameplay is more competitive" and go on implying that they're the same thing.
>MK is nowhere near as deep as SF when you really get down to it.
Did I call it, or did I call it?

>we'll honestly never know
It's really not that mysterious. It's obvious from the game itself, and from interviews with the creators, that competitive depth was not a high priority.

>We're done here, you've proven yourself too stupid to even bother trying to explain this stuff to anymore.
Heh. The last refuge of the guy with no argument. Declare victory and flee.

>>3398887
You seem to have missed the part where I was specifically pointing out that although MK has always had shallower gameplay, I've always liked it better than SF. The baseline point being that competitive depth isn't always what's important.

And that wasn't me running from the argument, that was me realizing you're probably the guy who only tries to play fighters single player, bitches about them here constantly and always says the derpiest shit imaginable. I'd almost wager money you're the shitter that was demanding I post video proof beating MK2 genesis single player and then taking my refusal as "proof" it's impossible. People like that are a massive waste of good air.

>>3398293
Like every youtube video ever? It's either Roo or Rye-oo which are both nowhere close. Even the announcer on a lot of SF games gets it wrong because it's an American they hired.

>>3398936
Forgot Ree-oo, that's popularly wrong too.

>>3398936
Link to pronunciation guide please. Clearly if the announcer is getting it wrong you have a better source.

>>3398729
Boon's team may not have been as skilled, but for a first try they did pretty good, and improved on it a lot on their second try, showing they learned a lot. Of course it wouldn't be as good as SF when the Japanese had been making fighters for some years already, but for a literal handful of guys who had no prior experience what they pulled off with MK was a miracle.

>>3398943
You don't need a guide, just learn basic Japanese pronunciations. It's one syllable, "You" with an R in front of it, Ryou. There's no distinction between the R and the You breaking it up into two syllables, which is the mistake English speakers make.

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>>3398946
I agree with all this. It's not the same game as SF but is great at what it does.

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>>3378768
Dan is not bad at all to use. Because he's fundamentally a gimped version of Ryu, he's easy to play as if you're accustomed to Ryu/Ken/Akuma. Much moreso than Sakura and Sagat, their similarities are superficial and don't relate so much to play style.

And this greatly facilitates the tantalizing prospect of humiliating people by beating them with a joke character.

>>3378768
I always was okay with Bulfro- i mean, Balrog! I kept hearing he was crippled by not having any kicks, but he was obviously just a graveless brute force character, and very not-complicated to use.

But then again, I had at times enjoyed watching all-strenth-nations-challenge, so I've been guilty of a pathological tollerance for meatheads.

>>3387296
do you seriously think that people INTEND to make certain characters top-tier, and other suck shit? Outside of blatant Playable Bosses and Joke Characters, of course.

Hell no, the designers always attempt balance, but pay varying degrees of attention to it. Sometimes they just leave in fun things because they're fun, even if they're overpowered. Sometimes they don't catch exploits. Sometimes they design cool things but nobody finds them out.

>>3399571
>I kept hearing he was crippled by not having any kicks

It really means nothing. In fighting games, there's not much difference if a character "kicks" or "punches", it's just an Instead of low kicks, Balrog has punches that hit low.

https://youtu.be/dkpriWP-zQg

>>3400739
I can't believe they would NOT see how broken some characters are during playtesting when the players can find this stuff out in just a couple of days.

I played Dan almost exclusively in SFIV.

If he gets added to V I might pick that garbage back up

>>3400838
That's because when you release a game into the wild you have a larger sample size to get nd broken shut at different variables.
That's also why so many people do online betas. To catch so much broken stuff before it comes out.

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>>3400838
>I can't believe they would NOT see how broken some characters are during playtesting when the players can find this stuff out in just a couple of days.

>A team of 20 guys doing testing versus literal thousands
>I wonder who will find stuff faster!

>>3400968
Honestly at this point I think this went past bait to Sacha Baron Cohen-level embarassing shit

>>3400838
Jesus fucking Christ. Name me at least one character so broken in a Capcom fighter, he literally ruins the whole game. Protip—you actually can't.

For SNK, you can make a case for KoF '97, but they followed it up with greatly balanced '98 a year later which is a staple to this day.

>>3401181
>Name me at least one character so broken in a Capcom fighter, he literally ruins the whole game.

Sentinel, Magneto, Cable.

>>3401187
> Implying MvC2 had balance
You can't ruin what doesn't exist. But you have a point

>>3400795
Yeah, but he did also have the lowest jumping ability, though he moved rather fast overall. He was still lacking in any sort of flashy acrobatic feats, even Zangief and E Honda had those, so Balrog did have a lack of move variety.

>>3401585
Plus he was a charge character which inherently makes him suck more too.

>>3401585
But that's just the example of varying characters. Balrog could put insane pressure in ST, just as you can see in the vid. Also, his super was really good.

Of course the tradeoff was that he was hard to use and couldn't jump too high. You don't get something for nothing, much like how Zangief is strong but slow. I'm not much of his fan, but he is no doubt one of the strongest characters in ST.

>>3399571
Ironically, boxer characters in fighting games tend to be fucking monsters, even with the lack of kicks in their repertoire.

>>3401603
lol /vr/ fighting game opinions are always hilarious.

>>3402129
You're saying he's not at an obvious disadvantage against a guy like Ryu who can whip out fireballs at an endless stream of 2 per second? Balrog has no projectile and no good aerial moves to close ground, not like it would matter in that case because you'd just get shoryuken'd out of the sky anyway.

>>3402504
>You're saying he's not at an obvious disadvantage against a guy like Ryu who can whip out fireballs at an endless stream of 2 per second?

That's exactly what I'm saying, yes. He has the tools to deal with fireballs and is designed around charging. Charge characters are a very different way of playing if you're not used to them, but it's not a real hindrance.

>>3402504
Ahaha dude.

Ever seen how people use his headbutt? Exactly, to go through fireballs. It's a great reversal. Much quicker than Honda's jump special. Another thing: his super is fully invincible on first 2 or so hits, and he can obviously come through any fireball anyone throws at him.

Yes, Balrog needs to get close to opponent and he has to work for it. But that's the point: he's incredibly strong up close, and when he corners the opponent, he's at an advantage. He can pressure anyone with an almost unending barrage of normals, rushes, and then get up close and grab the opponent; even if they break the throw, they're worse off and still in the corner.

Honda has it much worse. Even the top Honda players struggle to get close to Ryus.

>>3402668
He also has many of the strongest normals and specials in the game. Unless you're dominating him, he's usually slowly gaining on you just from raw power when you trade.

>>3401629
Huh? He never seemed hard to use to me.

>>3403102
Everyone is hard for that guy to use lol

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>>3401859
Whoa, really?

>>3403102
No, I mean for casual players. You have to be careful to keep the charge. Its not everyone's cup of tea, compared to easier Ken/Ryu/Sagat.

So who is the best fighting game character?

>>3403426
Oh, you mean specifically in Super-Turbo. I had ST associated with the 3do version, but I see it had one of those solid PC ports, like megaman-X1, and apparently much better than super-original, along with an amiga port too. Must have run very nicely on a DX4.

>>3403145
Body Blows...now that is a name I have not heard in a long time. Also, you really picked an example of a game that five people played and none of them ever did it in any kind of a competitive environment because the game is, let's face it, far too shit for that.

>>3403579
It applies to all versions.

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Heavy D isn't a shiiter, but he's pretty low tier.

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>>3403879
Hey, why you gotta knock it like that? That game EXCELLED at being unbalanced!

>>3404367
Well, given how gimmicky the original US team was—not surprisingly.

Vanessa is pretty good by all means though.

>>3406892
Yeah and he is at least better than Brian and Lucky. Vanessa rocks.