Why was Doom II worse that 1/ultimate?

>>3180203
Some gimmicky maps. The city maps just weren't good because of limitations.

the difficulty was just too fucking ridiculous sometimes

The SSG made things WAY too easy, even on higher difficulties.

I've always liked 2 more because of the enemy variety.

>Worse
>seriously implying

It's just as good, imo.

The new enemies and weapons really make the game, but the level design just isn't on par with Doom.

super shotgun > final doom

[^;

>>3180203
Final Doom > Registered Doom > Master Levels > Doom 2 = Ultimate Doom

>>3180210
>The city maps just weren't good because of limitations.
I'd more say because of Sandy Petersen. Industrial Zone was decent, IMO.

>>3180203
Final Doom (Plutonia) > Doom II > UD

>>3180213
>Doom 2
>Ridiculous difficulty

What? It barely poses a challenge at all until the final third, and even then, its still nothing compared to even TNT or MM, which they themselves arent that super difficult either.

the .wad isn't the strongest set of maps but the monsters are an excellent addition to the threat mix, fleshing out a "mid-tier" nicely

and no rest for the living is a pretty good official release

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because pain elementals fucking suck
and revenants are annoying

and because I have a thing for techbase e1 style maps

>>3180382
>hatred
Acknowledging something being worse than its predecessor =/= hatred

I don't know whether I love or hate its numerous traps and fake walls

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>>3180372
Registered Doom?

>>3180392
>It wasn't. That's just a stupid meme retards parrot here.
Well just because I'm a retard doesn't mean that's not my honest opinion, Doom episodes I-III and Doom 64 are still my favorites.

There's no shame in not being as good as Doom 1 though, it's still a good game.

I prefered how Doom 1 was divided into episodes. Doom 2 it's just one long episode.

>>3181132
You can sort of break up Doom 2 into 3 sections. Maps 1-11, Maps 12-20, Maps 21-30. First part is outposts, second part is city, third part is hell.

>>3177152

>>3180203
It was worse in terms of level design, but the new enemies and SSG were amazing so it evens out.

Level design was a shit show for the most part.

>>3181094
>not shareware?

I love Doom 2, but damn the music is just meh. Oh well, it fits with most of the levels so I guess I can't complain.

>>3180401
>It barely poses a challenge at all until the final third

On Ultraviolence, for the first half of the game there are more enemies then there is ammo.

And fuck that level where you have to dance around on the narrow ledges.

>>3180203
The only thing I consider an improvement is the SS.
The rest is just about the same, although there certainly are some annoying maps.

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>>3180203
>schutzshatgun
>archwhile
>revenontr

>vorse

>>3181438
I just got done pistol starting the first 10 levels with 100% kills, and ammo quantity was never remotely an issue. I'd tell you to just stop playing, but it's obvious you never started.

>>3180378
Sandy made 2/3 of Doom 1. This "Doom II was shit because lol Sandy Petersen" meme has got to stop.

>>3181094
Registered Doom was the Pre-Ultimate Doom (ie, no E4).

>>3181890
>Tom Hall made the levels
>Sandy just pieced them together like a Lego set

>>3181890
I dont hate any of his other maps in 1 or 2. Courtyard, Monster Condo and Spirit World are even my favourite non-Romero maps of 2. I just simply believe he wasnt the best choice for doing City maps, because he works best when he goes for more crude looking abstract layouts. Downtown is just awful in general, and Suburbs feels like it would've worked better as a Hell themed level.

>>3181923
Tom Hall didn't make all of E2/E3. Though granted, Petersen did attempt to copy Hall's style in E2M5 and E2M6 to an extent. E3 showed more of Petersen's true mapping style, though.

>>3180203
I think really only the first 10 maps are good, after that, quality starts varying wildly, and often in a bad way.

The assets are great for user created content though, easily the best part of the game.

>>3180213
No it didn't, Doom 2 is fairly easy, even on UV.

>>3180382
I don't hate Doom 2 you crusty, paranoid fuck, I love the first 10 levels (as well as all the cool new shit), but I, and many others, acknowledge that overrall, the levels in Doom 2 are not as good on average as the first one, in Doom, Ep1 and Ep2 are pretty thouroughly solid, and most of Ep3 is good (though fuck Mt. Erebus).

>>3180438
This.

>>3180378
I love Sandy, but his city maps are very EEEEEH

>>3180814
Revenants are a supreme addition to the bestiary though.

>>3181350
Nyeh, a third of it was really good.

>>3181923
That was only a few levels (like E2M2 and E2M7, Refueling Base, etc), which I personally think are some of the best ones.

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>the last levels of UAC Ultra

Jesus Christ what a wild ride.

>>3185939
Shit, wrong thread

>>3180203
I like maps 1-12, 14-20, 22-29

The Pit has a few too many lifts, but I still find it fun. Probably should've been put later in the game, though.

Downtown really should've been made by someone else instead. Petersen's mapping style clashes heavily with its thematic style, and generally isn't even a good map regardless.

Suburbs, I don't think is nearly as bad as some say. It doesn't quite make a good city map, but I feel if it was put in E3 and given mild adjustments to reflect that, it'd be fine.

Nirvana is flat out terrible. Really feels like it was a last minute map that was rushed out the door. The fact that the blue key is pointless doesn't help.

The Chasm, another map I don't think is as bad as some say. Though I can see why some wouldn't like the catwalks. I find this map pretty atmospheric, myself.

Icon of Sin, while I guess it serves its purpose, is still a pretty lackluster way to end the game.

As said, the addition of SSG and new monsters were great, but level design was for most part ugly and gimmicky.

Mods make it worth it, really.

I would argue that Doom 64 was the best Doom.

>>3180203
Chaingunners and shitty level design.

>>3187819
I have a love/hate relation with Chasm, I really like and dislike some parts.

>>3188104
Chaingunners aren't difficult you big baby, learn to take cover.

Furthermore, they let off a wanton shower of lead, which is excellent for starting infighting.

>>3188424
>Chaingunners aren't difficult you big baby, learn to take cover.
Yeah, but they slow down the game - especially at long range.

>>3188427
I guess somewhat? I rarely find myself cursing Chaingunners though, they're just another enemy, stuff that aggravates me more is when mappers use Barons when a Knight would have been better (lol HP wall), or when you get shoved into an enclosed space with an Arch-Vile, and there's nothing to take cover behind or to break line of sight between you.

Doom 2 generally isn't THAT sadistic in level design though, more often than not, Chaingunners are just used as slightly stronger mooks and they're easy to deal with. Final Doom is much more creative in it's cruelty.

>>3180203
It's my favorite of the series because it was my entry point. I thought the city levels were awesome back then. Who knows how it would have turned out if Romero hadn't been combing his hair?

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>all these retards complaining about Doom 2 enemeis

/vr/ is honestly such a fucking disgustingly shitter board. Doom 1 is fucking brain dead... so is Doom 2 for that matter but not nearly as much as Doom 1 is. Doom 1 is fucking boring.

>>3187819
>Icon of Sin, while I guess it serves its purpose, is still a pretty lackluster way to end the game.
Far better than any of the Doom 1 final "bosses". Icon of Sin is probably the best final stage of any of the 2.5D FPS's actually.

>>3181438
>On Ultraviolence, for the first half of the game there are more enemies then there is ammo.
oh my god you're so fucking retarded. you're literally dumber than I was when I was 10. FAR, FAR dumber, because I've never had problems with Doom 2 ammo in my life. I don't even see how that's even fucking possible. I would love to see your fucking abysmal gameplay and laugh at just how fucking retarded /vr/ shitters are.

>>3188619
>Icon of Sin is probably the best final stage of any of the 2.5D FPS's actually.

Nah. Shooting 3 rockets into a wall is a boring "boss".

Tower of Babel in Doom 1 was actually cool for its time. And I quite like how Duke 3D did its bosses.

>>3188890
>Nah. Shooting 3 rockets into a wall is a boring "boss".

Too many people play freelook which ruins the fight.

You have to first push the button to lower the tower. Then as it rasies fire the rocket JUST before it hits the top. You have to repeat this path a few times while avoiding the spawning enemies.

It's a puzzle. But Freelook means you can ignore the level and just fire away from ground level.

Because the levels were gimmicky. At least Doom sort of tried to make believable places.

>>3188616
>complaining about Doom 2 enemeis
Like one dude said he didn't like chaingunners, others seem to have no problem with the new monster, calm your sperg outburst.

>>3188619
The first Cyberdemon is actually pretty decent as a bossfight, he's dangerous, he can trap you if you're not careful (though he can also trap himself).
Spider is kind of weak the first time around, I'll concede that.

I like the idea and presentation of Icon Of Sin, but ultimately, he just feels sort of lackluster.

>>3188995
Done both, while freelook obviously makes this part MUCH easier, it's kind of just a bunch of fiddling under pressure, I would much rather have preferred a fight with a proper monster, like maybe a third giant demon that's bigger and badder than both the Cybie and Spider, and instead of him spitting demons, they can gate in at designated spots as you fight him. Or you fight both and you have to kill them to beat the level.

IoS looks pretty badass though.

>>3189346
>Or you fight both and you have to kill them to beat the level.

Any boss fight that revolves around summoning minions is a bad base to build a boss encounter on. Too many games use "3 waves of high-tier normal enemies" style boss fights and in some notably bad cases, in lieu of a boss fight. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is shaky ground, design-wise.

Non-/vr/ example:

I know Gearbox isn't too well liked by some here, but Borderlands actually manages to pull this off fairly well by keeping their bosses front and center and the minions in the background, rather than the other way around.

>>3189335
>The first Cyberdemon is actually pretty decent as a bossfight, he's dangerous, he can trap you if you're not careful
yeah if youre a fucking retard, which you probably are, being part of /vr/'s doom community and all

>>3189335
>Like one dude said he didn't like chaingunners
there's a bitch complaining about pain elementals and revenants too. plenty of bitches complaining that doom 2 is 'too hard' and what not on uv. /vr/oom is a fucking disgrace.

>>3189643
>>3189652
Careful with that edge dude.

>>3189371
I'll concede that.
Looking at Rage, most of it's faults absolutely pale when compared to the fact that the final boss is just a couple of waves of mooks.
It's frustrating because the game actually has real bossfights too, so it's not like they didn't know how to do one. I guess they didn't have the time.

>>3189643
I should rephrase that, it works as a beginners bossfight. He's probably harder without mouse turning, or in SNES Doom, where you can't circlestrafe.

You seem to be personally offended that there are people who aren't as l33t as you, I recommend taking some chill pills, enhance your calm.

>>3189652
>bitches complaining that doom 2 is 'too hard' on uv
I rarely see that in the generals, personally, I only play Doom 2 on UV.

But yes, there's the odd scrub who can't deal with chaingunners, more often than not I hear that from people who nerd over Quake and think hitscanning is unfair. Wolfenstein 3D must be a nightmare for that kind of person.

As for pain elementals, they can either be really easy, or really annoying. In close quarters you can block their spawns and they're defenseless, but in open areas, when flying high above, they can be a chore (though by no means unreasonable). I watched my brother fight a pain elemental with a rocket launcher, predictably, it spat a soul in his face as he opened fire, and he died. It was kind of perplexing to me, he must have understood that this could happen.

Revenants are only troublesome when deployed in certain ways (but even then, they're never used unreasonably in the iwads), otherwise they're just a bigger threat that you need to handle differently, a favorite of mine is, if there's room, to guide their homing rockets into other enemies, and then behold the ensuing squabble (it's like one motorist rear ending another and they get out of their cars to fight in a fit of road rage, because the revenant has no insurance, infighting rules).

>>3189643
You need to think about context. No shit the Cyberdemon boss is easy for people who've played for years. But for new people, its a fun new challenging experience fighting the Cyberdemon for the first time in E2.

Icon of Sin on the other hand is simply not fun, regardless of whether you're new or not, and regardless of whether you use freelook or not. Its a terrible boss no matter what.

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Most people make fun of this, but aren't most boss fights in video games like this?

>>3193284
The thing people are making fun of is that the magazine considers this basic strategy a "protip".

>>3193284
Yes, but this is obviously implied by the game's very nature and design. This is like getting a "Protip" from your doctor that goes "Remember to keep breathing in order to stay alive."

>>3193284
An actual "protip" would hopefully go into the nuances of the encounter for the kind of first-time player that would need it, like, say, clearing out the Lost Souls first or how to use circle-strafing or even using pillars and walls for cover.

Any of that would be more substantive than "use the main offensive mechanic of the game until victory"

>>3193284
>there are people who still think thats real

That image was made by Linguica way back in like 2004 as an April Fools joke.

>>3193268
>But for new people, its a fun new challenging experience fighting the Cyberdemon for the first time in E2.
hahahahahahaha

>Icon of Sin on the other hand is simply not fun, regardless of whether you're new or not, and regardless of whether you use freelook or not. Its a terrible boss no matter what.
it's not fun for you because you're a hopeless shitter and that will never change

>>3193531
Its not fun because its BORING. Many megawads have made far more interesting uses of the Boss Spawner/Romero Head..

>>3193535
Plutonia 2 comes to mind, it's similar enough in concept, but execution is radically different and it's more interesting than the original Icon Of Sin

>>3180203
Doom 2 and especially Plutonia shits on Doom 1.

- ssg
more enemies especially revenants/hitscanners
l - evels are bigger/more complex. doom 1 level feels very two dimensional, kinda flat dunno how to describe it.
- more ammunition. I get it, part of the difficulty in - d1 was resource management but that made the gameplay kinda slow.

doom 1 felt more like a survival shooter and not like a action shooter which doom is supposed to be.

>>3193661
>doom 1 felt more like a survival shooter
I agree with everything you said except this. Doom 1 feels utterly brain dead to me. Too easy and extremely uninteresting but still most definitely an action shooter.

I think people overrate Doom's level design. Yes, at the time of its release it set the bar for everything coming after it but bottom line is I don't find Doom interesting to play through. It's just too basic and boring. Its more maze-like levels are also sucky and there's hardly any variety to them from a gameplay standpoint. Just smaller spaces where you easily shoot dead a bunch of dumbass enemies posing absolutely zero challenge. No interesting use of their gameplay dynamics either. For all the talk Doom gets of being "omg so fast" in terms of the enemies it's actually slow as balls. They react slowly and their projectiles are slow. On your end there's gross input lag in some of your key weaponry (shotgun) which feels like shit and makes the game feel even more slow. The shotgun itself takes like an hour to reload and shoot again.

The only thing Doom did better than the second is atmosphere and aesthetic. The levels are prettier and spookier, no denying, but gameplay wise it's fucking BORING. I'll say that it doesn't have any stinker levels, whereas Doom II has like three or four (people here act like majority are bad but there's only a handful of truly shitty levels), but so what? Doom II at its best fucking kills Ultimate Doom and the majority of its levels are far superior from a gameplay perspective. Doom II's enemies are just about the greatest roster of enemies found in any game, ever.

Plutonia is the best out of them, no doubt, with TNT in second place. I played some of TNT recently and was impressed by it. I think it's underrated. To me Plutonia is the best but I think people have a knee-jerk reaction to it since its first three levels are the worst levels in the game. After that it's an awesome ride that only gets better as it goes on.

>>3193971
>To me Plutonia is the best but I think people have a knee-jerk reaction to it since its first three levels are the worst levels in the game.
At least they aren't a maze filled with a lot of Arch Viles.

>>3189072
This! Doom II's maps feel like something out of a fan .wad

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>>3193971
>For all the talk Doom gets of being "omg so fast" in terms of the enemies it's actually slow as balls. They react slowly and their projectiles are slow. On your end there's gross input lag in some of your key weaponry (shotgun) which feels like shit and makes the game feel even more slow. The shotgun itself takes like an hour to reload and shoot again.
The only thing fast about Doom is the player's movement. That's literally it.

>>3193997
Does this imply that people here don't like Industrial Zone? Top kek smfh.

>>3193661
>doom 1 felt more like a survival shooter and not like a action shooter which doom is supposed to be.

This makes no sense. Each game is what it is. Unless the staff have stated that they failed to make the first Doom what they wanted it to be, your idea that Doom as a franchise should be in the style of II is entirely your preference.

>>3193971
but I'm too bad at games to enjoy Plutonia and I honestly don't want to spend billions of hours gitting gud
I'm having troubles with BTSX episode 2 right now since it's getting annoyingly hard on HMP
I hate archviles and revenants

what was the level where you were in the library, or whatever

>>3193661
>which doom is supposed to be
>THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED!
It can be both, IMO.

But seriously, Doom 2 had a lot of mediocre and unfun maps, compared to Doom 1 and Final Doom.

The new monsters and the SSG are great, no arguments there, but the maps aren't all of the greatest quality. Look me in the eyes and tell me that The Factory or Bloodfalls are fun maps to play

>>3193992
>ridiculously cheap difficult map
>you just suck at video games

>>3194062
lol. Shitty players like to call Plutonia cheap. There are moments in the campaign that are cheap but not nearly as many as you'd like to think there are. Mostly it's just you blaming your lack of skill on the level design. If we were both doing the campaign for the first time I bet you would have died at least 20 times more than me, and you'd be calling most of those moments cheap, whereas I would have come out of them alive on first playthrough 2bh.

>ridiculously difficult
Nope.

>>3188616
>Doom 1 is fucking boring.
It's not.

>>3194030
27

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>>3194062
What, Hunted? It's a bit tricky, gimmicky, and the viles are scary, but it's not at all unplayable.

Keep in mind, the core concept of Plutonia was for it to be a challenge for people who thought Doom 1 and 2 were too easy on UV, it's meant for a much higher level of skill than the stock game. If you find it difficult, that means the mappers did their jobs (I personally think E4M2 is cheaper)

It's playable, because if you understand Arch-Vile behavior, and if you have a firm grasp of controls, you should be able to conquer the level. Remember, if you can break the line of sight before it finishes, the Arch-Vile can't smack you, even if that means backing up behind a corner for a second.
You're given a Super Shotgun, which is known for giving a good damage output, but also, it puts out 20 hits, which means a good enough pattern on an Arch-Vile has a decent chance of stunning him, even interrupting his attack, and even if it doesn't, that's still a good hit on him regardless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJec3o3VhfQ
Look at how this guy does it, he's a pro, but it gives you a good idea on how to handle the level.

>>3193531
>hahahahahahaha
Good argument, boi.

>it's not fun for you because you're a hopeless shitter and that will never change
Or it's objectively not a very interesting encounter.
Beyond the novelty of the giant motherfucker, he really isn't that interesting to fight.
Plutonia and TNT do a slightly better job, making the levels themselves more interesting, and providing more challenge and trickery, but really, the core concept of the fight is boring.

>>3194282
>Good argument, boi.
Implying a shitter who ever found e2 cyberdemon challenging is worth an 'argument'. You're only worth laughter m8. He's slow and has one predictable three rocket attack. At best he kills you once then you simply strafe and blast him with rockets. Wow so challenging omg.

Shitter.

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>>3193971
>On your end there's gross input lag in some of your key weaponry (shotgun) which feels like shit and makes the game feel even more slow.
The shotgun has a brief 1 tic lag before actually firing, but it's not a huge thing t b h famicom.
There's more of a delay with the rocket launcher, but that also gives you an incentive to be more careful with it. The BFG has a delay which is very much intentional.

>The shotgun itself takes like an hour to reload and shoot again.
Regular shotgun does pump needlessly slow, when really, it's not hard to work a pump rapidly.

The supershotgun is kind of slow on the reload I guess, but it more than makes up for it with it's high damage output.

If it bothers you that much, just make a mod with Decorate for ZDoom, they're trivial changes to make. Personally, I don't think they're that big issues.

>>3194013
If it's too hard for you, then play on HNTR or even ITYTD (where you get double ammo and take half damage). It's really not too hard to learn otherwise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJcf0aOwmiA
If you're green, watch this video.

Tell me, do you play with keyboard and mouse or only keyboard?
The game is designed to be played with mouse turning.

>>3194330
So hardcore man, I wish I was like you.

>>3194361
Lol its not that I'm 'hardcore' m8 it's more that u guys are fucking BAD lmao. I've honestly been legitimately shocked many times by the gameplay standard I've seen in /vr/oom.

>>3180203
I don't know where you think you are but we here at /vr/ don't tolerate people having similar opinions to the majority of people outside this board. LEAVE.

>>>/v/