CRT vs HDTV?

>PSX
>6th gen garbage

Wrong board, kiddo.

>>3174331
Calm down. I used PSX as my example, but I'm asking about consoles before that generation. Read the question again.

>>3174339
Calm down, son. It's just a drawing.


however, your post is not retro.

>>3174382
I'm specifically asking about which retro game consoles should be used on CRT (specifically PSX and prior, which seems to be the point of the board), but my post is not retro? I don't understand.

>>3174406
PSX as a term for the PlayStation came before the PSX model PS2.

>>3174420
that term makes no sense

>>3174480
If you aren't knowledgeable about the development stages of the PlayStation, then yeah it makes no sense.

>>3174480
It makes sense if you saw it back when the system was current. The only way you can really be particularly offended by it is if you either weren't around when the console was new or otherwise didn't follow games.

>>3174495
>>3174515
How does it make sense? How the fuck do you get PSX from PlayStation?

>>3174480
Sensible or not, it's what the magazines at the time used as shorthand for the console. That's why people who were old enough to play old games when they were new say "PSX" when talking about Sony's first console.

tl;dr Learn some history, you underage faggot.

>>3174326
hard to believe I'm the first person actually addressing your question... I think PS2, Dreamcast and Xbox look better on CRTs. After that consoles were meant for hd displays. Basically my rule of thumb is that if the console doesn't at the very least support 720p HD it will most likely look better on a crt.

Are we seriously turning this into a PSX vs PS1 shitfest?

OP, interlaced signals (including 240p in your case) are looking like shit on your HDTV. Learn what consoles put out progressive scan and which put out interlaced. Sixth gen is where it gets quite complicated about how to hook consoles up to display progressive scan and which games support it etc etc etc.

>>3174543
>>3174548
Thanks for actually responding.

Are there any devices or something that will make using older consoles that output interlaced signals on an HDTV not look so bad? I have an S-Video modded Genesis and it seems to look pretty good on my HDTV, but I assume it's still putting out the same signal and thus would look better on CRT... or am I not understanding correctly?

>>3174326
CRTs don't have pixels, they have lines with color in them. They can scale with precision. No jaggies. Just magnets and beams of radiation that draw lines at light speed.

>>3174602
Genesis outputs 320 x 240 progressive signals at 60 Hz, it's easier to scale than other signals.

>>3174326
Up to and including gen 6 should all be run on a CRT.

>>3174326
The following consoles should be played on an HDTV:

Wii
Wii U
PS3
PS4
Xbox 360
Xbox One

Everything else, use a standard definiton CRT.

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>>3174331
>>3174382

>>3174602
Yes there are, but quality ones will shock you with their cost. The most popular manufacturer, Framemeister's XRGB will set you back about $350

>>3174669
Horizontal resolution is relatively meaningless when you're dealing with interlaced video signals (240p and 480i don't have horizontal resolutions) beyond the fact that you're somewhat more likely to get square ends depending on the quality of the upscaler.

retroarch with shaders

>>3174747
>Framemeister's XRGB
What exactly will this do? From looking at it on Amazon, I'm assuming it scales composite input through the "HDMI out" port. What about S-Video or component though, doesn't matter?

>>3174780
The Framemeister is pretty nice - mostly if you have RGB cables/mods that you want to use on an HDTV. It takes a low-resolution image source and upscales it to 480p/720p/1080p/etc. at 50/60hz. It also can do some color/border/etc. processing, and it can add scanlines to an image as well. This works very well with RGB inputs. Even if you just have composite, though, it'll do much better with 240p content than going straight to your TV.

>>3174747
Your post is relatively meaningless since you're invoking interlaced resolutions to talk about the Genesis.

320x240 is 4x3 and square pixels. Deal with it.

>>3174780
XRGB-3 accepts composite, SVideo, analog VGA and RGB in. None of them support "component" but all your consoles that you're using component output on also support RGB and/or progressive scan over component.

Component (Y Pb Pr) is almost exclusively an American standard. Most retro consoles (with the notable exception of NES) support RGB natively or with relatively simple modification and that provides the best possible input for upscaling. If you use composite it will significantly magnify the inherent defects in that signal

>>3174802
Are you suggesting that the Genesis console is capable of putting out a digital video signal? Because it sounds to me like the experience you have is through emulation which isn't what OP is discussing - although he could save himself a lot of time and money by switching to emulation to get the progressive scan signals he's wanting for his HDTV.

>>3174817
I hate to break it to you but the p in 240p stands for progressive you smug imbecile.

Can RGB only be accomplished with SCART or the VGA looking cables? It sounds like I'd have to mod all my consoles and get special cables on top of getting one of these upscalers.

>>3174829
I hate to break it to you but 240p is just 480I with the odd fields layed down on top of the even fields to achieve a higher frame rate. It doesn't have a standard horizontal resolution. You should know that already considering you seem to be aware that the SNES renders in a non 4:3 resolution but maybe you haven't sufficiently thought it through. No harm done though, you don't even have to get embarrassed for being ignorant when you're Anonymous.

>>3174837
You can use whatever cables you like - the XRGB uses a Japanese mini scart input but yes generally the simplest thing to do is to get everything running through RGB SCART. Some of use 6-BNC to go into our pro video monitors but most of us have an RGB SCART to 6-BNC breakout since in many cases it's cheaper to just buy SCART cables for the consoles than to fabricate them, especially if your time is at all valuable to you.

As you are realizing it really is a significant expense and it would be much simpler to just emulate and use controller adapters to get that authentic "feel" since you're not after the "look"

>>3174857
I'm more just confused than worried about the cost. Mainly on how to achieve an RGB output. Everything I'm seeing for SNES, Genesis, Saturn, PSX, etc, is the giant SCART cable that I've literally never seen on a TV set in my life. I'm guessing an adapter would be required, or could I just buy Japanese SCART cables in the first place?

Sorry for all the questions, I assure you I am trying to look this shit up as I'm posting here, there's just way more information and variation between not only consoles but each model for a console than I was expecting.

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>>3174847
I hate to break it to you but all True Video is 50 or 60 frames-per-second and is achieved through interlaced video. Maybe you haven't sufficiently thought it through. 240p is progressive. 320x240p is 4x3 and scales easier due to square pixels.

why does it matter

>>3174872
I feel like you're trolling at this point because your saying things that are obviously wrong i.e. that NTSC 480i is 60fps

>>3174870
The easiest and cheapest way is to get the Euro SCART cables since they've been using the standard forever they have tons of used and generic ones available though they're often inadequately shielded and require some dicking with, but it's easy to do since they're so big and come apart so easily. I believe the XRGB actually comes with a European SCART to Japanese SCART adapter but you should double check that. I don't have one I use CRTs.

>>3174953
You should know that phosphors have persistence considering you seem to be aware that CRTs exist but maybe you haven't sufficiently thought it through.

>>3174957
Dude stop. One 480i frame is made of 480 interlaced lines, 240 even numbered lines one way then 240 odd numbered ones back 30 times a second. 240p just uses each pass for a frame and puts them down on top of one another for twice the fps at half the resolution. The term 240p is a misnomer.

>>3174978
One field is made of 240 lines and two fields can be two frames if it's True Video. 60 fields per second. Or are you one of those /v/ shitposters that claims all interlaced video is telecined film content with matched fields?

>>3174987
I have no idea what the fuck you mean by "true video". I might be willing to believe there are analog video recorders that record in 240p but I personally have never seen such a thing and I've seen a lot of analog video.

>>3174331
>PSX
>Wrong board, kiddo
no u, sport.

>>3174382
Big man been here since last summer and decides what's retro, sticky be damned.

>>3174406
>PSX =/= PS1
Make that been here since this Monday.

>>3174480
You make no sense. There's a board for people like you. Please go back there. Try back here in a few years when you're not underage.

>>3174713
I agree with this except for wii, looks better on a CRT man and does not output anything HD at all

>>3175015
>born March of 1998
>underage

>>3174978
>240 even numbered lines one way then 240 odd numbered ones back
Cracker. We've seen you before, and you're an idiot.

PS3 upscales PS1 games.

If you played them on a standard definition CRT you're a fucking idiot.

>>3175112
>PS3 upscales PS1 games

Yeah but I want to be able to use my chipped PSX to play backups and not deal with region lock.

>>3174713
>Wii
No
Wii looks best on a CRT.

>>3175141
word. It's a shame that most of the actual Wii games are locked at 16:9 though.

>>3175160
If you set your system to widescreen you'll get a full screen in those games but the aspect ratio will be incorrect.

>>3174326
What game is that OP?

HDTV. CRTfags are an anomaly since they enjoy shitty quality.

>>3175212

SD looks better on a CRT
HD looks better on an HDTV

It's just how it is man.

>>3175246
Vinylfags like me can claim their format has superior quality and be right. CRTfags can claim no such thing. As a guy who has played vidya on both CRTs and flatscreens I can confirm HDTVs are superior and CRTfags are just circlejerking.

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>>3175305

>>3174543
I'm being pedantic, but Xbox and PS2 supported 720p

>>3175246
>HD looks better on an HDTV

Actually HD also looks better on a CRT, thing is that you can't really find a 60" CRT while you can easily find such a HDTV.

>>3175317
CRT can support 720p/1080p?

>>3175324
720p/1080i, but then you lose 480i

>>3175305
>vinyl is superior for any audio reason
stopped reading there

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>>3175324
>>3175327
Many CRTs support resolutions well exceeding 1080p, though such displays rarely sync down to SD frequencies (15khz)

>>3175317
This is the truth. Cube square law limits the practical size of a direct view CRT display while panel-type displays are under no such restriction

>>3175324
>CRT can support 720p/1080p?

The syncmaster 795mb I had could do 1080p, though it looked really odd on a 4:3 screen. The best res on that monitor was 1280x960.

R-Type is 256p.

Pac-Man is 288p.

Dreamcast is 480i but 60fps.

Where's that guy who claims all these things are impossible?

Whatever you do just don't hook up your PS3 to a CRT for PS1 games, the PS3 can't output 240p for whatever reason so you'd be stuck with flickering 480i eye cancer.

>>3174713
Widescreen Wii and PS2 games objectively look the best on a widescreen CRT.

>>3175512
Widescreen on PS2 is so pointless because HUD don't get scaled most of the time.

>>3175512
>S2 games objectively look the best on a widescreen CRT

What about PS2 games that support 480p? Will that look better on HDTV?

>>3175440
256p is possible on PAL displays with letterboxing. 288p is the PAL equivalent of 240p. In their arcade formats these two games may sync just fine at those resolutions since arcade monitors are very different from TVs. Dreamcast can render games at 60fps but it can't output them over NTSC or PAL any higher than 60 or 50fps respectively but since Dreamcast can do 480p over VGA it has reason to render at those speeds.

>>3175564
R-Type runs at 55 fps and Pac-Man runs at whatever, I forget. A monitor is a monitor, it should be able to take anything from 45 Hz to 61 Hz vertical frequency no problem. PAL and NTSC are illusions.

>>3175578
>A monitor is a monitor, it should be able to take anything from 45 Hz to 61 Hz vertical frequency no problem. PAL and NTSC are illusions
Okay

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>>3175578
>PAL and NTSC are illusions.

>>3175583
>>3175587
Arcade monitor has no NTSC, has no PAL. My PVMs have no NTSC or PAL except for color correction at my whim and discretion.

>>3175592
What happened to "a monitor is a monitor"?

>>3175595
It's up my ass, gump. Do you seriously think that the only vertical frequencies possible are 50 and 60?

>>3175596
They're the only NTSC and PAL frequencies possible, dipshit which is all that retro consoles other than Dreamcast are capable of outputting.

Goddamn you've picked up this thread's goalposts and moved them clear into another fucking county.

>>3175601
You're pretty buttblasted that low-definition progressive resolutions other than 240p exist aren't you. Moving goalposts huh? Like determining that it's a Dreamcast thread now? Are you the same person who claimed 480i can never be 60fps?

>>3175601
Neo Geo outputs 59.184087 Hz, not NTSC.

>>3175609
480i is essentially synonymous with NTSC. You could push a 640x480 interlaced signal to a VGA monitor at 60hz if you wanted. I can't imagine why you WOULD other than to fantasize that it's 480i and jerk off about being "right" but again that doesn't make it true.

>>3175619
>59.184087 Hz, is not NTSC

>>3175647
NTSC is 59.94hz m8

>>3175649
>59.184087 Hz and 59.94hz are not 60hz

>>3175659
Whatever 60hz is, it ain't NTSC

>>3174723
stfu tumblr

>>3175647
No, I push 576i to my PVM through VGA / RGB BNC to display desktop and I push whatever signal the game runs at when I run arcade games. 576i is more screen real estate.

DoDonPachi runs at 57.something Hz and ロタテ so I turn the TV on its side and play it at its true refresh rate with no V-Sync since I'm not a retard.

>>3174870
>is the giant SCART cable that I've literally never seen on a TV set in my life
Are you underage or American?

>>3175692
Did the French write the NASA guide to soldering? Why is your bulky cable format even necessary for RGB?

>>3175692
American. I know it's an overseas thing but I find it surprising it's the go-to RGB and it's surprising to me that TVs here pretty much never have it. I don't doubt they exist, but I have never once seen a SCART input on a TV here.

Is there a reason why televisions don't support both 480@60 and 576@50? Why can't the hardware just do both like capture cards do?

>>3175696
How else are you going to combine:

Composite
S-Video
RGB
Signal switching

into a single, plug 'n play connector using parallel wiring? C'mon hotshot, let's see your solution.

>>3175696
>Why is your bulky cable format even necessary for RGB?
I guess because it carries RGB for displays that support it, and composite for everything else. So it's pretty much fool-proof for SCART-SCART devices, you just get high quality shielded cable and plug it in for everything.
Things get complicated when you know which signals you exactly need. For consoles, console-BNC RGB cable is probably superior, especially if you can get your hands on expensive BNC switch.
>>3175698
Doubt any home market American models have it.

>>3175708
Real CRT displays can easily. Televisions have things added to them, not subtracted, in order to limit their functionality and prevent evil use of European media overseas. You can push anything down to 55 Hz vertical into an NTSC television before it will shit the bed and go black and white / screwy.

>>3175712
>>3175720
Why do you need S-video or composite when you have RGB? What monitor with RGB-input doesn't have S-video, composite, component also?

>>3175746
Any CRT tube TV can do this? No matter how shitty? Or only fancy high end PVM stuff?

I just want to know before I drop money on a cheap one from a thrift store and attempt to run some 288/576 PAL games.

>>3174709
>>3174713
It's nice to avoid interlace flicker when possible, though, so I'm inclined to use a PC monitor CRT for Dreamcast VGA.

And maybe PS2? I've never tried it but is it practical to transcode progressive PS2 games to VGA for PC monitors?

>>3175754
576 rocks out at 50 Hz so it won't display on a TV due to artificial limitations designed to prevent regions from intermingling.

You know what could probably do it is something like an old Apple IIGS monitor. Just find the brochure PDF for whatever you find and scope out the actual stats. A monitor will show the range of frequencies, vertical and horizontal, it can handle. You want it to handle low 15.7 KHz horizontal rather than high 31 Khz. And for vertical to handle 50 to 60 Hz.

>>3175746
>Why do you need S-video or composite when you have RGB?
I believe I own VCR and something else without RGB output at my old home. They are hooked with same SCART cable as everything else, but only output composite through it.

>>3175201
Holy Diver for the NES. Pretty good Castlevania clone.

I just realized that in not too long, there will be people able to post on this board, who weren't even born before the cutoff line for retro posts. I want to ban humans from here too. Not even being ironic.

Why is this thread so terrible it should have just been light conversation about monitors

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>>3175815
There are people out there from the Atari and ColecoVision days who are probably thinking the exact same thing, wanting to wipe every SNES and Genesis kiddy from existence. Bet you babies have never owned a Game & Watch or Virtual Boy, fucking casuals, and so on. Who the fuck even gets cynical about time and age of human nature?

>>3174602
It will definitely look better on a CRT + will be instantaneous. I now have a xrgb mini which makes any 240p signal (pretty much everything pre-Dreamcast) look spot on but they are many dollaridoos

>>3175601
>They're the only NTSC and PAL frequencies possible

NTSC and PAL are colour encodings, not frequencies.

>>3174331
Children like you ruin this board.

>>3174331

Don't be retarded

>>3174713

Wii will have display lag, use a CRT

t. Competitive Brawl Player

>>3174331
>>3174382
>>3174406
>>3174480
kys

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>>3175689
And what is it exactly that makes you think your PVM has anything to do with this thread in the slightest? At least when I mentioned MY pro monitors here >>3174857 and >>3174953
here, I did it to explain where my knowledge on progressive scan upscaling stops. We're all impressed that you have a supergun and a PVM okay?

>>3175698
>>3175720
The RCA Dimensia (bad name right?) has it and I don't know of any other USDM TV that did.

>>3175708
Please do not listen to >>3175746 there are very natural organic reasons different regions use different formats for color space. Even beginning to discuss that would turn this thread into the current /crt/ general which I suspect it is in the process of becoming right now but if you want to learn about it start with the wikipedia entry on the subject.

>>3175754
It's possible to drive the neck of most CRTs directly with an RGB signal although you may have to use caps and/or amps to balance the signal. I played around with the idea of making console-attached CRT combos and reselling them for a while but it seemed like a good way to get some nasty shocks.

>>3175824
I agree. There's literally no point in this discussion it just amazes me the kind of posters we have on /vr/ right now. It's like they just skim a general, spend some money and assume some smug attitude to make them feel good about themselves. Creepy.

>>3175832
I don't think that at all, although it is interesting that people 10 years younger than me are almost 30 and despite being pretty more or less fully mature have very different perspectives on /vr/ by virtue of seeing consoles come out and different ages.

>>3176242
You did switch your Wii into progressive scan mode before you played it on an HDTV right? Or did the HDTV's own digital to digital upscaler add perceptible lag?

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>PSX

>>3176371
> Bill Nye meme re: PSX vs PlayStation
You're posting this ironically I hope

>>3176371
PSX is the actual name of the console given by Sony when it was first announced. "PS1" is a colloquialism that didn't exist before PS2.

>>3176529
It was a prototype designation (like Katana our Ultra 64) and there was a hyphen but I went to the effort of writing a fairly extensive explanation of why it was so popular here >>3164010

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>>3176371
>Megadrive

>>3176371
Lordy. Children will believe anything they read on the internet.

>>3176553
"But that isn't right! The PSX is a different machine!" is possibly one of the best underage or borderline underage flags we have.

>>3175313
While xbox did PS2 did not. Its supported 480p and 1080i (linux version only) not 720p.

>>3175313
I don't know why people would even suspect the PS2 to be capable of rendering 720 rows of pixels at the same time. The most advanced engine for PS2, the one that powers Gran Turismo 4 and Tourist Trophy, was natively 480p but could also alternate "540p" for 1080i. However 720 rows of lines in real time was definitely out of the question.

>>3176569
>borderline
Mate, there's no way you could not be underage and be unaware of "PSX" - my youngest brother was born in 98 and he remembers PSX labels being used on games at blockbuster.

2D sprite based games look really good on a HDTV with an RGB cable. It's the fifth and sixth generation 3D games that really seem to suffer from a HDTV. The PS2 is perhaps the worst affected, as it has light coloured lines on the extreme left and right sides that would have been hidden on a CRT TV. Gamecube, XBOX and Wii look much better.

Composite looks bad on a HDTV. I haven't tried RF but that likely looks even worse. S-video is the lowest quality connection that looks decent on a HDTV.

>>3174787
It also helps for those that have weird HDTVs that don't understand a 240i/p image being sent, ie. N64, as now it will pass, at minimum, a 480p image to the TV, which is standard for DVD Players (as a baseline).

I'm looking into getting one whenever I get rid of my Sony WEGA and replace that with a nice HDTV, but that'll be a while away.