I savescummed my way through this whole game and feel like a

The first time I played all the way through Mega Man 2 I was emulating it on a PSP, I had thought the NES games were "impossible" so just saving every thirty seconds was OK.

I feel so retarded now, a decade later, since I consider Mega Man 2 one of the easiest "hard" games on NES.

Every once in awhile I'll use a savestate if it avoids really, really pointless grindy shit that just wastes time, but generally I feel like if you're not gonna at least try to beat a game the way it was made, what's the point? You really need to see the story in a fucking NES game?

>>3037460
I really enjoy games that are hard to beat, but when i'm re-playing retro games i just use save states to complete the game in one go.

I believe that the first time you play a game, it should be blind (without guides, ss or anything besides the game and your skills).

>>3037460
Kid Chameleon

and I apologize for nothing

that game is fucking insane

not just for how difficult it is, but for how confusing it is

>>3037460
Ninja Gaiden. Except I didn't beat it. Joke games like IWBTG are easier. Fuck Ninja Gaiden.

>>3037460

I used to savescum but ever since I beat Ghosts 'n Goblins I've realized there's no game that can't be beaten. It just takes lots and lots of persistence, patience and hard work.

I saved scummed when I forgot to input the continue code for Adventure Island while I was in the last world. Eventually felt bad and started over to complete it properly.

>>3038145
It gives me the warm fuzzies when I've no-deathed a game that most people can't beat. C'mon anon, keep playing, you can do it!

I think I made it to like stage 4 or so of Super C without dying, but after that I started doing a state at the beginning of every level until I could get through without dying.

save(state)s are fine with me as long as you're doing it for a specific goal for improving skill
beat a boss with shit equipment, low level, without getting hit, etc
you could use a state for each boss phase rather than be basically waiting through old phases you already know

What does /vr/ think of using save states as a replacement for passwords? For example, making a save state every time you beat a level on Mega Man.

>>3038335
Why not just write the pasdword down as intended? I mean, you can obviously do whatever works for you but to me, using savestates at all seems like a slippery slope. Never use them, never will.

>>3037460
specifically this game has one stage where you have to sit around waiting for like 30 seconds for blocks to melt, and I always skipped that shit when I ran out of lives and had to redo it

>>3038458
How dare these people use this completely optional feature that can be useful at times!

>>3037609
It's not the story. It's playing the rest of the game. Castlevania 3 is a legitimately hard game, but damn if it isn't fun to play. I just can't get past a certain point legitimately and I get no joy out of dying over and over again until I finally can beat it, and then having to do the exact same thing for the next level. I just want to get to the new levels. And you know, it's not like save states trivialize the game's challenge. You have to have at least enough skill to accomplish something in the first place for a save state to matter (unless it's an RNG based challenge). Save states just ensure that you don't have to accomplish anything that you've already proven you can accomplish again

>>3038959
>And you know, it's not like save states trivialize the game's challenge.
They do -- it's one thing to do something once, another to do it consistently and under pressure.

Save states are good to practice hard parts of action games and memorizing boss patterns etc, but no replacement for the satisfaction of going back and doing it properly.

>>3037460
Cool thing about CV3 is that you can just replay with a different character and route combination, it's like a brand new game.

>>3037460
literally every S/NES game I ever emulated, but I was a little cheating shit as a kid and used GG/GS for everything anyway

most recently I savescummed my way through Deus Ex because fuck you nigger I hit him right in the back how is he not knocked over

>>3037460
Save states are the pinnacle of cheating. It allows the player to have perfect playthrough with exactly zero skill. Using save states to clear a hard game is a sliver of a step above just watching a Youtube playthrough, and can't even be considered 'beating the game'.

Take Dragon Warrior 1 as an example. Encounter rates and hit/miss rates are dependent on the clock timing. With save states, you can completely control when/what you fight, and if you'll ever even get hit in combat.

It used to be really taboo to use save states to beat games, but that has all gone away. Younger generations are so used to endless checkpoints to the point that challenge in a game is considered 'not fun'.

>>3038982
I assure you, CV3 is still difficult even with save states. Being able to "complete something consistently and under pressure" is not the entire challenge; its hard enough to complete at all.

And while I'm glad you find satisfaction in doing things "properly," I never got that feeling from most games, and the ones I do get it from are never retro because retro games are generally too simplistic to be fun for me to master. Repetition is not a good way to keep me engaged and if it's a choice between repeating the machinations of some malignant Japanese jackass and using save states, I'm gonna use the save states.

>>3039212
Why use dragon warrior as example, though? You can't die in that game, you can only lose a bit of gold.

>>3039215
Because the penalty for death, even if just gold loss, means a lot of grinding. Most grinding is for money, not experience.

>>3039218
How is grinding for gold something that requires skill?

>>3039243
Never said, nor implied, it was. Grinding gold is the penalty for death, in addition to having to return to where you died to continue the progress. Many games have different ways to penalize the player, such as having to restart a level, reclaiming power-ups or lost levels, and sometimes even restart the whole game.

Skill is what lets a player avoid having to face these negative consequences. Or more specifically, that a player can still complete the game in the face of any negative consequences they may have had imposed due to failure along the way.

Cheating (Save states) erases the penalty for failure, and ensures the player never has to face any ill consequence. Skill is no longer relevant, since blind chance can be used to overcome any and all obstacles. Players can pick-and-choose which challenges apply to them, and never have to face any form of penalty they don't want.

>>3038335
>>3038458
To save time, I'd guess. Functionally, it's the exact same thing so I don't see anything wrong with that.

>>3039213
the tldr; is that some people who don't have fun actually playing retro games still get a kick out of touring their content with an emulator, for whatever reason

>>3038335
That's what a normal person would do.

>>3038959
>>3039215
>>3039243
A point is being missed here. There are micro-challenges (fighting this monster/boss/platforming area), and then macro-challenges (energy/lives/ammo management). Using save states to not have to replay a level, lose gold on a death, or anything like that in a limited sense may still expose you to the micro-challenge, but it still negates the macro-challenge. There's complex decision making BEYOND 'this thing I'm fighting right now' that also makes up the game. This concept is lost today because of how checkpoints got wedged into every damn game now, as noted here: >>3039212

>>3039268
You sure did imply that it was skill based with you first post.
> It allows the player to have perfect playthrough with exactly zero skill
>Take Dragon Warrior 1 as an example

Dragon Warrior takes no skill at all, just a lot of time. And that's what save states are all about, saving time. I see no problem with players doing this to more easily bypass challenges they don't find enjoyable to play so long as they don't come bragging about how they're experts at a game they checkpointed their way through. I mean, picking and choosing challenges is something that a player does by the very act of choosing which game to play.

And if someone does not derive enjoyment from attempting to gain skill at what is ultimately a useless pastime, is he wrong for trying to cheat his way through the game because he enjoys other aspects of it? Why should I or anyone else tell him how to spend his time?

>>3039323
>Take Dragon Warrior 1 as an example
Read the rest of that post again then. Skill was around having save states remove any important decision making. Not once was gold even mentioned in that post, just that you can choose to never face failure.

Skill in Dragon Warrior is about managing your resources and making appropriately measured decisions on how much further you can progress, and when. As a subset, there's skill in choosing which actions to take in battle to maximize your efficiency, which also plays into what challenges you'll be able to undertake. In a way, "how fast you can beat the game" is a measure of how smart you were about the overall choices. So, well, having gold be the penalty makes the most sense, since it's the most gatekeeping element of the game.

It's perfectly fine that you cheat in your games, as these are single player games afterall. And there are a lot of people who have to because managing anything more than "the next 5 seconds from now" can be really tough for them, and save states grant an accessibility for these players that didn't exist back in the day. That's awesome. But the 'accomplishment' of beating a game with revised/simpler rules does not equate with the intended accomplishment of the game.

It's like playing chess with ability to undo any move. You get the play the game, and you can always win. But don't be surprised when people diminish your achievement.

>>3039291
Not quite. I find a lot of retro games enjoyable to play. I just don't find them enjoyable to try to get good at and I do not want to sink the time into doing so. But a lot of them have some really neat ideas and mechanics. Super Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example, is basically a more interesting Mega Man because it has the whole armor switching thing and the double jump and platforming designed around said double jump, and enemies with smarter attack patterns and so on. I just can't get into playing it because I don't want to practice it (and there's a fair amount of things that no amount of practice will help you with, like the infinitely spawning zombies). My skills are very slow to improve and I can't even really make it past the first level

With save states, it's still hard, but at least I can see the next level in like 15 minutes rather than 2 hours (and possibly another hour on top of that dedicated solely to venting frustration)

>>3039323
>And if someone does not derive enjoyment from attempting to gain skill at what is ultimately a useless pastime, is he wrong for trying to cheat his way through the game because he enjoys other aspects of it? Why should I or anyone else tell him how to spend his time?
Those of us who really care for these games are sad to watch them die totally unappreciated, loaded up for a few moments of boredom in an emulator by kids who can barely stand to play them. C'est la vie.

File: castlevania3-spot1[1].gif (40KB, 768x672px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 768x672px

I don't use save states in games outside of using them as a makeshift save system for games that don't have them or for games with passwords. That said, this fucking part in Castlevania 3 with the falling blocks is gonna make me give up and start abusing them. I think I might have got past this level once by cheesing it with Alucard, but doing it without being able to fly up to the top is fucking near impossible (and even then it's still not easy, and you need to have enough hearts to make it work). Every time I've played it recently, I've picked Grant, and every time I get to this part I'm forced to give up. Seriously fuck this part.

>>3037460
Not really /vr/, but I abused the shit out of save states in FFIII DS.
That game was way more brutal than the original.

>>3039351

Pull your head out of your fucking ass, you elitist cunt. I don't use save states either, but I don't jerk myself off over it and think I'm better than everyone else. It's a personal preference. Grow up.

>>3039351
This. Save stating takes away so much from the experience.

>>3039351
This so much.

Overall, this thread is starting to restore my faith in /vr/

>>3039347
>I find a lot of retro games enjoyable to play. I just don't find them enjoyable to try to get good at and I do not want to sink the time into doing so.

That's so sad to read, it's nearly soul crushing.

>>3039351
Save states can help people to appreciate hard games when they might not otherwise.

I use savestates as a way to save my progress in platformers (I usually do a save at the start of the level and make my own checkpoint or two), make a bookmark when I'm grinding in jRPGs, and to prevent myself from having to start over in a poorly-designed part of the game (like the Tower of Babel in Xenogears or Mega Man 8's snowboarding sections).

I just don't have the patience anymore to go around and play games without any sort of way to save in some capacity.

But, if someone wants to save every 30 seconds, knock yourself out. Whining about "MUH PURITY" is only for self-rigtheous assholes (that, like all blowhards, likely aren't all that good either).

>>3037460
I quicksave like a motherfucker while playing Abe's Exoddus. However, it's built into the game and is a feature the developers intended you to use.
I think they made a lot of the secret areas harder than the first game to compensate for this though. I might try a playthrough without quicksaves one day but since you have infinite lives all it means is more backtracking when you fuck up.

>>3037460
So I'm curious OP, what part of the game did you have such a hard time with? Not gonna shit on you or anything, just wondering.

>>3040287
Reminds me of how when I went through Thief the first time I abused the fuck out of saves; these days I'm trying to do ghost runs and one fuckup means doing it all over again. It's an interesting progression. Totally different from using savestates though as they ARE built right into the game.

>>3037460
Sure. There's lot's of reasons someone might do it. You might want to beat a game a different way and not have to repeat some fiddly parts. You might want to level up, get items, etc so that you can explore with impunity. You might not want to lose one of your limited number of lives because the car/bus/train/plane/boat/whatever bounced a bit.

But yeah. If you sat at your computer and savescumed because you couldn't beat the game otherwise you should feel like a major tool.

>>3039446
You just need to pick a pattern that three adjacent blocks fall in and move between them to avoid damage. Word of warning though, I'm pretty sure the pattern changes about halfway up but you'll just take a hit or two while you adjust.

>>3040262
"Appreciating" a game in which difficulty is a big part of the experience by cheating. Interesting.

The most savescumming playthrough Ive done was of Ecco the Dolphin.
Game had me genuinely interested but I was tired of dying and having to repeat whole sections of the lvl again and again and again.
I wanted to progress but didnt have patience to keep on trying just to die a bit further.
So I started savestating before/after some more difficult parts.
The end result was that in The Machine I saved every 5 sec just to get throu it.

I basically bullshited my way throu the whole game, but at least I didnt drop it and seen it to the end.

I know that it is possible to beat it legit way, and Im sure I could do so if I just keep trying over and over. Instead I went for faster and less frustrating if not as rewarding option. I played it, seen it throu the end and had fun. I dont regret it.


Other time I was playing OoT and I wanted to beat it with no savestates and have the most legit experience I could.
Everything went fine until fire temple, the moment when you have to run for the chest with the hammer inside.
I tried to for a solid hour, but I just keep falling off the ledge and had to spend few min to get back up. Even that wind teleport magic didnt help much, mana depleted after using it constantly.
Consecutive fails just made me even more angry and nervous, taking away all hope for getting it done.
I caved in and saved right before making a run for it.
Having a safety net in form of a savestate and calm mind that nothing happens when I fail, I got it on the second try.
I was relieved that it was finally done and over, and angry that it took a savestate for me to progress, and with such ease too.
That time I felled genuinely bad for using states, mainly because OoT is not a game that punishes you for fucking up. Death doesnt mean much, just some backtracking. But I just couldnt take backtracking same thing for an hour straight just to fall and have to do it one more time.

>>3041684
The Japanese version of Ecco has checkpoints in reasonable locations. Also, movable blocks don't disappear the instant they go off screen. I beat that version without save scumming.
The English version is just bullshit. No shame there.

Were you playing Oot with an analog stick? That part is tricky, but it would be 10x worse with a keyboard or d-pad.

>>3041768
Ecco was in English, but not sure if just translation or whole version.

Yes, I did play it with an analog stick, but I use absolutely cheapest pad with sticks I could find. I cant even configure it the way I want it, it goes full throttle halfway to the edge. I probably should look into how to properly config it sometime soon.

I savescummed through Wizardry.
Didn't feel too bad about it, actually, holy shit that final boss is bullshit.

Speedfag here, I use save states a lot for learning rooms quickly and stuff like that, but that's about it. I don't believe in the "it just saves time" type argument.

As someone already said, having to grind is the punishment for dying. Having to spend time getting back to where you were and not rage quitting in the process is all part of the challenge of beating a game. If you used a save state to beat a game, for ANY reason, you didn't beat it. Even if it was to skip a cutscene/password screen. Having to endure all of that boring shit is part of the challenge as well.

This thread has opened my eyes.

I always thought the hostility against people who own games, as opposed to emulators, was ultimately jealousy of being able to afford it. I don't think that's the case now. I think it's jealousy that those gamers can actually beat games without cheating the whole way through.

If this thread is a worthy sample set, most of the retro gamers are simply not good enough gamers to be able to beat old games without completely eliminating the difficulty. And since this is a enthusiast board, that means that's probably true even more so for the general populas.

In a way, it makes me proud to read that at least a few people out there can actually play and appreciate these games. But it's still sobering as sad to see that many, if not most, simply can't pull off beating a game without a safety net. Though what's interesting is that the cheaters defend and overly justify their position in a way that suggests they feel embarrassment, which is also interesting.

This completely explains why modern games are now brain-dead easy, and truely underscores why games got worse over time.

>>3043357
>implying you can't cheat on original hardware too
Found the retarded collectorfag

>>3043369
Cheater detected.

Comparing things like game shark to save states is leagues different. You have to set up a game shark or game genie, and tailor the way you want to cheat before you start. Save states ensure your playthrough can be perfect in every way with no prep time needed. Especially with the "made a bad in-game choice 1 hour ago" situation that only can be circumvented by a save state.

>>3043380
>>3043357
In this thread it's like you made these posts specifically to spite others. I do agree with your thoughts though.

I don't feel guilty of using them on the original crash bandicoot because fuck that save system.

But if a game let's you save constantly or the game just send you back to a default point everytime you die, there's no real excuse to not try to beat it normally, because honestly even super mario bros feels great to beat in one setting.

If the game it's well designed, there's no actual need for save states even if the game doesn't let you save or there's no password system. Even open world games with save system usually have shortcuts to save time to the player.

Note that i'm talking about well designed games, fuck kaizo hacks or games that may become unwinnable because a random glitch fucked up your progress.

Eternal Champions on the Genesis. I'm glad I did. The ending sucked and you have to beat every character in the game to face the final boss once (who you have to beat 9 times or something).

>>3044849
That's a truly terrible game. Cheating really can't make it any worse.

>>3037460
> That moment when you realize you haven't saved in like two-three god damn hours, and you made a bad move or three that could cause a game over.

I admit it, while I generally use savestates since they're a superior system, sometimes I use them to get out of a hard spot.

It's simply not possible to go through and master every retro game I'm interested in, so sometimes I will use save states to "take a tour" of the game, see how the game progresses, and then decide whether it's worth investing time into to master and get a genuine one-life clear.