>Celes is an interesting case, although you might not notice

I'm sure if I asked which article you were talking about, the name of the site it's being hosted on would immediately confirm my suspicions that it's not even worth responding to.

>>3016026

I think OP's referring to this:

http://thegamedesignforum.com/features/reverse_design_ff6_4.html

>>3016014
By the same logic, you could argue that the way reflect works is a design flaw, which is an idiotic argument to make. As it is, Runic/Reflect offer powerful effects that force you to alter your strategy to compensate for their weaknesses, which is exactly how they should be.

If you want to talk actual design flaws in FF6, I'd say the esper/spell system that allows every character to learn every spell is pretty terrible. And there's all the exploits and stuff, but glitches shouldn't really count as design flaws.

>>3016117
>If you want to talk actual design flaws in FF6, I'd say the esper/spell system that allows every character to learn every spell is pretty terrible.

Please tell me how the inclusion of the whole esper/spells system is in any way a design flaw. I see it as pure content. It adds a lot of potential to the game while subtracting nothing from it.

For that matter what's so bad about the mere fact that it's possible for every character to learn every spell? That just means it's a versatile, flexible system which affords for a high level of character customization.

>>3016254
Not him, but I dislike RPGs where every character can do everything. For this reason, I detested FFVII and FFVIII. FFVI/FFIIIUS is a special case for me.

Anyway, once, many, many moons ago, I played a hardtype hack of FFIIIUS wherein the espers, with few exceptions, functioned more like personas do in the persona series IE when equipped, a character has those spells available, once s/he has learned them. The exceptions to this system were innately (or bioengineered-ly) magical characters, Terra, Celes, Relm and Strage, who could permanently learn spells.

The downside I saw to the hack was that it was still limited to one esper at a time per character. I'd have changed that to at least two or maybe three per, just for sake of awesomeness.
Or add more equipment that taught spells but, like the espers, once unequipped, the spell's greyed out on your list.

As usual, Gogo could use all spells already memorised by your immediate party.

>>3016014
>For example, suppose that Runic did work properly (according to the article); suppose it only absorbed harmful/enemy spells.
Then everyone would have her in their party just to spam Runic over and over to prevent the enemy from doing shit spell-wise.

I love it when people spew shit like this and scream bad design when they obviously don't bother thinking about how shit would play out.

>>3016340
Doesn't Runic only work as long as Celes literally just stands around and does nothing? Imagine what effect this would have on her as a character.

Runic would basically enter the same league as regular magic spells, applying a passive buff.

A passive. Fucking. Buff. That would be Celes' signature ability. That's exceptionally lame compared to the other characters' abilities.

But it gets even worse. It would lead to players using Runic more often, and other actions less often, which would further reduce Celes' role is battle and by extension her worth as a character.

>>3016014
>Using Celes
LOL

>>3016014
I wouldn't say useless, runic requires you to know the intricacies of the system like the palm of your hand, you need to memorize turn order AND when will enemies cast spells. So yeah very few gave it good use. The Magic Master always countering with ultima when he dies might be a good use of the skill.

Mog looks kind of sexy in that picture.

>>3016254
What's the point of an RPG if every character can do everything? Obviously that's a somewhat hyperbolic statement, as the different characters have different stats and unique abilities, but allowing every character to learn every spell removes a ton of strategic thinking in regards to party composition.

In my opinion, deciding who to take in your party should be a meaningful choice, and there should be tradeoffs to taking one character over another. By allowing every character to learn every spell, those tradeoffs are hugely diminished.

Runic is good. Characters and enemies don't act randomly, there's a turn order, and you can determine it yourself.

>>3016674
So don't use espers then. Don't teach every spell to every character.

Problem solved. Now the game will play exactly like you wanted.

The esper system is built into the game but using it is completely optional. How is giving players more options to choose from ever a bad thing?

>>3016674
I thought spells weren't even very useful.

>>3016761
Abilities kind of drop off in favor of Magic the later you get into the game, barring a choice few like Bum Rush

>>3016495
Celes' ability is a total crapshoot.

The game tells you to use it during the fight with Tunnel Armor, but you have no way of knowing when or if Tunnel Armor will actually use magic or physically attack.

So since Runic consumes her turn, you're essentially guessing. If you Runic 3x in a row and Tunnel Armor physically attacked you 3x then you just fucking wasted all your turns. You can actually very easily die to Tunnel Armor if you don't use runic when it uses the magic attack since it hits absurdly hard.

Runic in FF6's context is fucking worthless. It's not even good in the fight that shows you how to use it.

Celes and Terra are just straight magic users. Characters like Edgar and Sabin have powerful abilities that for the most part outclass Magic until late in the game. The other characters usually have some kind of redeeming quality or interesting mechanic, but Terra and Celes basically get the shaft in terms of abilities. They are strong mages, but everyone in FF6 can be a strong mage.

>>3016758
Well shit, while we're at it why not give every character Edgar's tools, too? How about everybody gets Sabin's street fighter attacks. Shit, let's just make everyone Gogo, but with every ability in the game available at all times. It gives players more options, right? Must be a great idea.

>>3016761
Tell that to Pearl Dragon Gau.

>>3017004
Don't forget tools. Drill is one of the most reliable damage dealers in the game, especially on enemies that seem to avoid most everything(Cactaur). Flash was also great.

>>3017018
>The other characters usually have some kind of redeeming quality or interesting mechanic, but Terra and Celes basically get the shaft in terms of abilities.
Still would put either of them on my team before Cyan. Swordtech is strong early game(more or less), but quickly loses both power and a reason to be used by mid-game. Relm is inconsistent shit. And there isn't really anything redeeming about Umaro, even with Winter Orb and Bone Muffler.

>>3016254
>For that matter what's so bad about the mere fact that it's possible for every character to learn every spell

The problem with this kind of system is that it doesn't have any downsides at all and throws the already nonexistent balance out of the window, just like FFVII/VIII.

What makes it even worse is that characters are effectively all jack of all trades in terms of stats where the only noticeable difference is Celes/Terra/Relm being better offensive mages than the rest and Locke/Sabin/Edgar being better physical fighters than the rest and the latter case also becomes irrelevant thanks to Setzer's Fixed Dice or Gau being Gau.

But then again every single FF has glaring character balance problems that mar otherwise decent main system designs.

The only redeeming quality of FFVI, in terms of battle mechanics, is unique character commands, but even there there's a lot of stuff that is tremendously useless for the vast majority of the game and/or when you get certain characters with the exception of Locke, whose Steal still manages to make him relevant enough and Gogo if you're into mimes.
Cyan's Swordtech gets overshadowed by Sabin's Blitz in terms of damage, Edgar's Tools are situational at best and fade into obscurity after the first quarter of the game where it would be pretty hard to justify the use of anything but Drill or Chainsaw with some exceptions, Gau breaks the game and the meager grinding required to set him up doesn't matter when you get an unkillable god and then you have garbage characters like Umaro, Mog and to an extent Strago, all of which can still the game effortlessly due to the esper system, mind you, but in terms of "unique value" they're still leagues behind the others.

What makes me really frown at FF's problems is that most of them could be solved just by having a fixed stat system or giving each character relevant stat growth limits, that alone would be enough to greatly rebalance most of the games.

>>3017018
Terra and Celes actually have really good equipment options that allows them to be good physical attackers in end-game.

FF6 is kind of strange in that way - you got some characters where their abilities absolutely define them (Gau and the Bros) and then most of the rest are close to just being filler

>>3017027
>Tell that to Pearl Dragon Gau.
Rages are not spells.

>>3017187
Stop spouting your entirely valid criticisms of a decent-yet-nonetheless extremely overvalued series of games. Just drink the damn Kool-Aid.
>your points are exactly the reason I dislike most FF games to some extent or other, especially V and VII

>>3017280
>Casts Pearl
>Casts Pearl
>Casts Pearl
That's about all he does during the Pearl Dragon rage.

>>3016014
Unfortunately, it's almost always the player casting those spells, not the enemy, so Celes will frequently absorb that Cure 3 you really needed for someone else.

I like how this is all based on someone playing terribly and equating it to a design flaw. Runic is a powerful skill, but obviously if you just use it at random or when someone needs to be healed then it's not going to work well.

>>3017623
Oh that's right, Pearl is the Nintendo name for Holy.

Riddle me this- if you use Runic, do you have to keep using it every turn for it to be effective (assume no spell was in fact cast after its initial use, but may be cast on a subsequent one)?

>>3016117

Except it doesn't offer powerful effects. Nobody used Runic because it wasn't worth the bother, and didn't do much. It was a joke option.

>>3017640
Yeah maybe if you play with espers. But if you ever bother to try the game's hidden "Normal" (instead of "Easy") mode by not using espers then Runic becomes very powerful. As do many other characters/abilities when not everyone can do everything, making the whole game a lot more enjoyable, in some ways.

>>3017814
>But if you ever bother to try the game's hidden "Normal" (instead of "Easy") mode by not using espers

Holy shit this is some super sperg shit here. Giving yourself limitations like not using espers isn't a "hidden normal mode"

>>3017820
Actually yeah it is. Espers were the developers way of making the game easier so that even full casuals could do it. Using or not using certain abilities/equipment/etc in RPGs is a long-established way of lowering or raising the difficulty as one sees fit.

That's not autism you stupid idiot that's called being such a based fan of something -- a particular game, or gaming in general -- that your interest in it goes beyond the surface level. Experiencing the game without some aspect that is a major part of its design is obviously going to be significantly different to the "vanilla" version you get with that aspect at your disposal. It's true, you need to adhere to self-imposed limitations in order to do this. But you seem to think that means what you get is an inferior experience, while my experience has been that no-espers FF6 is vastly more enjoyable, challenging, and interesting. So I don't think of no-espers as even being limited in any way. If anything I've found it to be more rewarding.

>>3017853
>Espers were the developers way of making the game easier so that even full casuals could do it.

Unless you have solid real evidence of that you're just talking out your ass.

>Using or not using certain abilities/equipment/etc in RPGs is a long-established way of lowering or raising the difficulty as one sees fit.

Of course, but only a complete retard would try to say that's a hidden difficulty setting.

>>3017870
>Unless you have solid real evidence of that you're just talking out your ass.
The only way it's not self-evidently true is if espers don't, in fact, make the game easier.

>>3017870
>Of course, but only a complete retard would try to say that's a hidden difficulty setting.
You just agreed that it is, though? Of course there's no literal, formal hidden setting in some menu that you can adjust -- or whatever. But in effect that's what you're doing so what's the difference then?

>>3017889
>The only way it's not self-evidently true is if espers don't, in fact, make the game easier.

That's the stupidest statement in the world. By the same token Super Mario has a hidden "normal difficulty mode" because you can choose to play it without ever getting a powerup. That's completely ridiculous.

>You just agreed that it is, though?

Of course. People have been doing that with RPGs as long as they've been around. I've done it many times in various games. But saying that playing the game as it was designed is "easy mode" and making your own limitations is some kind of "hidden normal mode" is truly idiotic.

>>3017905
Your whole semantic argument is dumb and pointless. We both agree the difficulty can change based on what powers you choose. I'll jokingly refer to that idea however I want. The only thing that's idiotic is you taking it seriously and telling me, "no, you can't call it that."

>>3018173
Not him, but you literally said not playing with espers is a "hidden normal mode." That's fucking retarded.

>>3018189
The default difficulty of FF6 is easy. Therefore raising that difficulty brings it up to normal. What's the problem?

>>3018197
>What's the problem?

Easy is normal. Final Fantasy is easy.

>>3016014
>I want my ability, which completely nullifies all incoming magic, to only apply to enemy magic, thus ensuring that I don't have to think at all about strategy and that I can just break the game without thinking
I fucking bet some guy with glasses and a beard who lives in SF or LA, and who majored English at some school with Ivy League pretensions wrote this shit.

>>3017623
That's not a valid point in response to the original argument though, which is that choosing characters should be a strategic choice. Only two characters can use Rage, so choosing to use that strategy actually does have pros and cons over using other characters.

>>3017187
>The only redeeming quality of FFVI, in terms of battle mechanics, is unique character commands
I disagree, because you're overlooking the fact that the characters have unique equipment options, and equipment is the single determining factor in whether a character is good or not. Relm has the highest natural magic power, but she's a shit character compared to Terra and Celes because she can't equip heavy armor and knight swords.

>>3016512
Unfortunately you can't use Runic when fighting the MagiMaster. It can be useful against the other enemies who cast Ultima though (of which there 3, not including MagiMaster).

File: 1453780265011.png (125KB, 386x318px) Image search: [Google]

125KB, 386x318px

>>3016026
You should always read something from a source you don't agree with. What source would deter you from reading the context of that quote in OP's post?

>>3017024
FFX did this and it wasn't a bad idea, but that's because it fit. Nobody talked about the Sphere Grid in FFX's story, which made it fine. It makes sense that you can use espers with everyone because it's within the nature of Magicite to do so. Ramuh sacrifices himself because he sees what a big fuckin' deal this whole situation is and it makes sense. Stop shitposting.

>>3017814
>hidden normal mode
Are you fucking kidding me?
>>3017889
>Espers were the developers way of making the game easier so that even full casuals could do it.
>The only way it's not self-evidently true is if espers don't, in fact, make the game easier.
You're full tilt retarded. You can't say "this was the devs' intention" without Sakaguchi coming down from heaven and saying "yesu sat was ehh EENTENSHUNAL... ehhh limito wa Amerikajin marketo da..."

The guy quoted in OPs post is mistaken, given the nature of Runic. It's a magic sponge. I knew full well that if I used it while I tried to cast Fire on a monster, it would get sucked up.

The concept of Runic is badass, I just feel like it wasn't taken far enough. For example, there's a bug in FF6; if an enemy casts the Vanish spell while Runic is up, Celes will absorb it AND she receives the Vanish status. How cool would it be if it worked like that for all buffs?

>>3016014
Even if you patched it to work that way, FF6 would still be an extremely easy game.

>>3020629
>I disagree, because you're overlooking the fact that the characters have unique equipment options

They mean nothing, the stat bloat on the player's side makes any kind of "uniqueness" irrelevant with the exception of Fixed Dice, there's no point in giving characters unique equipment(which is really only stats and the occasional build in buff) when the basic character's stats skyrocket at an incredible pace and overshadow equipment difference by a wide margin.

Again, with a fixed stat system that would actually work out great, but there's no such thing so it's vastly irrelevant by the time you reach Gestahl, Relm might have less defense compared to Terra or Celes, but it matters little when the game is so easy and you can simply spam revive or phoenix downs without penalties, like Cyan, it's not that he's weak, his stats are very good for a physical attacker, but his tools are simply inferior to others, even though it still doesn't matter since the game is so easy you can use anyone.

Compare it with a system that does the opposite like Romancing SaGa 3, only a handful of characters have innate, unique traits (Boston, Yousei, Zou, Yukidaruma and Leonid) and all can use any kind of equipment or skill, but the characters have fixed stats, so while you can in theory make a natural mage into a swordsman he/she will never perform as well as a natural fighter and vice-versa, not to mention that the powercreep is much slower and much more balanced and tricky than FF, character availability and natural talents. While Gau single handedly breaks the game by having access to terribly good tools despite having generic equipment I can't do the same in Romancing SaGa 3, not only because everyone has access to the same tools except Leonid, but everyone has a definite stat table as a core, unlike FFVI or FFVII where everyone is more or less the same. The problem with FFVI is that the core system in itself is shallow and poorly designed.

>>3022706
>the stat bloat on the player's side makes any kind of "uniqueness" irrelevant with the exception of Fixed Dice
You're so wrong and you don't even know it. The fact that you think Fixed Dice is the only overpowered piece of equipment is very telling. ValiantKnife and AtmaWeapon are both better defense-piercing weapons at high enough levels, and Ragnarok/Illumina are better defensive weapons. Don't forget the various options for armor too. Minerva Bustier, Snow Muffler, Force Armor, Red Jacket, etc... most of the good equips are good because of elemental resistances, not stat boosts, but even the Snow Muffler has a defense value that you can't just write off.

I'm not sure what you mean by "stats skyrocket" in context of the esper bonus system, but a fixed stat version of FF6 would be nearly identical to a normal playthrough. Innate stats other than magic power don't actually affect jack shit. That's why Cyan ISN'T a good physical attacker. The Strength stat barely increases physical attack damage even when it's maxed out. The most important stat in terms of damage calculations is just the character's level, which means if the game is too easy then you can stop fighting encounters for a while and then you're back on track.

The criticism of "every character is the same" is completely unfounded for FF6. It's just like FF8. You CAN'T have a full magic list on every character unless you grind it out, but everyone insists on doing so for some bizarre reason. No shit the game is too easy, if that's how you think it works! If you have the slightest bit of foresight though you aren't going to teach Cyan any spells that rely on magic power, because it is literally a waste of time. That's where the strategy component comes in. Yes, you can grind and teach every character Life 2 and crush every endgame boss, but that's your choice. If that's what you do, you don't have any right to complain.

>>3022935
>The fact that you think Fixed Dice is the only overpowered piece of equipment is very telling.
I haven't said that Fixed Dice is overpowered, it's just the only weapon that calculates damage based on its own fixed multiplier tables unlike everything else that has to use standard multipliers reliant on stats, Fixed Dice works outside of stats, unlike all the other weapons.
>ValiantKnife and AtmaWeapon are both better defense-piercing weapons at high enough levels, and Ragnarok/Illumina are better defensive weapons
It doesn't matter, the game doesn't have enemies tough enough to justify their use, they're more bang for your buck, sure, but they're neither mandatory nor necessary.
>Minerva Bustier, Snow Muffler, Force Armor, Red Jacket, etc... most of the good equips are good because of elemental resistances, not stat boosts
Which again, don't matter because only a handful of enemies actually uses elements.
>but a fixed stat version of FF6 would be nearly identical to a normal playthrough
Not even close, but believe what you will, if going against simple math is what you like to do, be my guest.
>which means if the game is too easy then you can stop fighting encounters for a while and then you're back on track.
If I actively have to avoid enemies in order to make the game challenging that's plain bad balance, I should be at the right level to keep things challenging, not being an unbeatable god just by fighting a few monsters on the way to my next story checkpoint.
>You CAN'T have a full magic list on every character unless you grind it out
You don't even need it, stat bloat is so high you don't need to have magic on anyone but Celes or Terra, everyone else can simply attack and use their tools, same with FFVIII, I don't need to give Zell anything more than a STR and DEF boost through junction, nobody needs anything else in FFVIII because Magic is worthless besides being a stat multiplier, hence the legit complaints on characters being all the same
>>>

>>3022935
>If you have the slightest bit of foresight though you aren't going to teach Cyan any spells that rely on magic power, because it is literally a waste of time.
Doesn't matter when Ultima still does good damage even with Cyan, because again, the stats for both PC and monsters is all over the place.
>That's where the strategy component comes in
What strategy?
What possible strategy is there in a game where you can mash attack and spam Ultima to win anything?
>Yes, you can grind and teach every character Life 2 and crush every endgame boss
I don't need to, Phoenix Downs are a thing and the game throws money at you, you can crush 99% of what the game has to offer by spamming attack and having 2 characters that cure the rest of the party, all of this by simply fighting what you come across without going out of your way and buying the next best equipment in every new shop you visit and hoarding treasure chests.

You don't need to actively going out of your way because you're too weak to beat a boss, you'll always be way too strong for anything to give you problems and again, you're given a lot of tools without any kind of penalties to the point that to make the game vaguely difficult you need to actually ignore the game's core gimmick, which is literal masochism, or at least it would be if the game was actually difficult even by doing that.

Say what you want on FF, but it has always been an entry level game with tons of design flaws, good music and designs, sure, but the games are as vanilla as they get.

>>3025369
This is the best post in this thread