Which one is more overrated?

>>2878920

both

>>2878920
OoT.

Lots of plebs hate MM for its time system.

Both. But that doesn't mean that they aren't enjoyable games.

>>2878923
MM. Lots of hipsters think it's deep because of its time system.

>>2878925
kek

MM easily, even though i like it. I can't excuse it's faults.

>>2878920
MM > TP > SS > WW > OoT

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>>2878938
OOT > MM > TP > SS > WW

MM since that was DLC content charged as a full game.

Ocarina of Time, because the extreme expectations set for it will never be met. Regardless, it's an excellent game, and I wish we could discuss it here without contrarians like OP shitposting about how much they hate it.

>>2878945
>that shitty overworld
>only one big side quest
>first three dungeons are a bloody joke
>having to go back to Temple of Time to warp every time
>the only fleshed out town is Hyrule (child)/Kakariko (adult)
>none of the enemies pose a challenge aside from Iron Knuckle, who is rare

OoT has aged like milk and only gets credit for being "the first", much like SotN. But all of OoT's sequels have surpassed it and only people blinded by nostalgia rank OoT as best.

>>2878925
No, the appreciating for MM comes from the fact that that game is just /unsettling/. It creates atmospheric tension and uneasiness in a way Nintendo never has and likely never will do again. The time system is bullshit. Of course you'll respond to this with some whiny bullshit so I don't even know why I'm bothering. You're obviously just a shitty troll.

>>2878920
who cares about overrated, MM is more fun if only for the fact that you can play as a fucking goron

>>2878920
Both are good games, that's why people like them

Link's Awakening (non-DX) is still the best Zelda. It's the only Zelda game where everything is there for good reason. You couldn't remove anything without making it worse. There's no wasted space in the overworld, and the dungeon designs (especially the later ones) are unmatched. DX version is worse because the bonus dungeon gives you an overpowered item, and you can't 100% it without being a THIEF.

>>2878925
Haha love MM but you got us there.

>>2878954
You're so fucking full of shit. I agree, it gets probably more recognition than deserved, because it gets a shit ton. But there's a reason it did. I just started another play through since it's been for fucking ever, and I must say, this game managed to retain all it's charm even if it's n64 graphics.

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>>2878920
>OoT
>no Wizzrobes
>no Darknuts
>Z-targeting
Why do people like this again?

LttP Master Race.

>>2878920
Neither one is as overrated as Final Fantasy VII.

we /v/ now

Link's awakening best game.

>>2879021
>easiest 2D zelda
>best game
"no"

>>2878920
anything 3D zelda

>>2878920
In real life: OoT

On the internet: MM

>>2878920
Try every Zelda ever. It's mediocrity: the franchise

Daily reminders:

Alundra is better than any 2D Zelda.

Okami is better than any 3D Zelda.

>>2879076
I'm sure that's why Alundra is called a "Zelda clone".

But honestly I've never played it, I was told its "Zelda with a dark storyline and anime cutscenes" which was maybe an unfortunate description, as I've avoided it since. Maybe one of these days I'll give it a fair try.

We're at the point where Ocarina is underrated, so many tryhards think they're edgy for hating it.

Link to the Past is the most overrated Zelda and the most overrated video game ever made.

I don't think either is overrated.

I think it's fair to call OoT and Majora some of the greatest games of all time.

Maybe they get overrated when you say they're GOAT.

>>2879140
>getting buttdevastated
I didn't even say I hated anime, but if you think a game is better than a game that it ripped off because it has anime cut scenes I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this reaction.

>>2878920
You seriously need to get the fuck out of /vr/.

>>2878920
>2D Zeld>>>>>> 3D Zeld

>>2878964
Yep, this. MM is such a hauntingly unique work of imagination.

The time system is kinda cool sometimes but it's not why I love the game.

>>2879134
LttP is overrated, but I can't see how the title of most overrated game could go to anything but FF7.

The only reason video games even evolved beyond the N64 in any margin of sense is because of OOT and MM.

Ocarina of Time proved a sandbox game could be completed.

Majora's Mask proved that complex diurnal/nocturnal cycles could be incorporated into games, expanding on what Ocarina of Time was the first game to do.

Remember on top of the 24 clock, OoT was the first game to have
>3D lock-on targeting.
>context-sensitive action button.
>manipulable vehicle.
>still the only 3D game with interactive time-travel other than its sequel.
>still the only game with an optional vehicle of travel that alters your ability to progress.
>still the only game with a dedicated instrument you can play/record your own tunes on in-game.
>might still be the only game that has a sidequest that extends nonlinearity of the main-game (Scarecrow's Song)

both

>>2879439
Uh, Daggerfall did all of those things and came years before OoT/MM...

>>2879495

Doom did all of those things first

>>2879076
Okami isnt even better than the Zelda of that same year, Twiligtht Princess.

Those were the 2 best games of 2006, which was one of the worst years ever for videogames.

>>2879439
>Majora's Mask proved that complex diurnal/nocturnal cycles could be incorporated into games, expanding on what Ocarina of Time was the first game to do.
Dragon Quest/Warrior beat MM to the punch on this for sure.

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>>2879136
This is how I've always felt too. Doesn't seem like a popular opinion here, though. People seem to be really bent on proving that one is better than the other, for one.

>>2879276
It's got this... Surreal element that OoT just doesn't have.
Am I the only one who gets some kinda Miyazaki vibe from it?

>>2879439
megaman legends had lock-on targeting first.

>>2879007
>(non-DX)
This. The content added in DX feels tacked-on, the tunics throw off the balance of the game (as you pointed out), and even the palettes are hit and miss.

>>2879536
It feels... Smarter than the way Miyazaki's games do with their atmosphere. That's not to say they're dumb by any means, it just feels very intentional and core to the foundation of the game's world and setting. Infecting every semblance of mood and vibe. Every character, piece of dialogue, and piece of music. MM just makes me downright uncomfortable in a way I think is damn brilliant. Not like a horror game, more like David Lynch.

That's it.

I get it now.

It all makes sense.

Majora's Mask is David Lynch's Ocarina of Time.

>>2878920
OoT, hands down.

Well actually, since Ocarina is a perfect game it is literally impossible to overrate it.

>>2879714
I like this. And not because I just binged through twin peaks. I only played through MM once, there was some awesome dreamy tree scene near the end... no other Zelda carried such thoughtful atmosphere.

>>2878920
MM, but I still liked it.

TP is the most overrated of all the 3D titles, though.

>>2879780
Totally. Majora's Mask is, to me at least, the most interesting thing Nintendo has ever done. And I doubt they'll ever take a risk like that again.

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>>2879007
>LA
Not even the best handheld Zelda, m8.

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>>2878920
MM is actually overrated by a strict definition of the word. that is, people think its good when in fact it's mediocre.

OOT, on the other hand? everyone already knows that playing too much of it literally turns you into a faggot. no one minces words on this fact.

>>2880028

Hey fellow /v/ memer

>>2879510
>2006
>one of the worst years.

not 2007

>>2879015
>LttP
mah nigga
will readily admit that my opinion is heavily influenced by nostalgia-goggles, though

>>2879510
Funny, playing Okami and then Twilight Princess right afterwards is what caused me to realise that Zelda was tired and shit tier and probably never an above average series to begin with.

>>2880028
Goronguy > Cosmo

Thus

MM > OoT

>>2880791
>determining the quality of games based on the e-celebs that play them

Kill yourself.

>>2881019
#triggered

>>2879714
Miyazakis games are more amorphous in their dark and somber atmospheres whereas MM is focused on one specific threat that the entire world is reacting to.

>>2880028
why does every faggot that thinks theyre a girl look like this

its like theyre making fun of women

>>2879495
Daggerfall didn't do any of those things. It has a procedurally-generated world, which isn't the same.
I won't fault it for trying, but to claim it did what OoT did is an affront on your intelligence. Also, youtubing the game for the first time, I can see OoT had a draw distance like 100 times Daggerfall's software 3D draw distance (but that's again, something only OoT was the first to do, every game before it would have enemies phase in or out).

>>2879517
Pics? I'd really like to see this, so I can stop saying that.

>>2879537
Negatory. It would turn the camera to face the nearest enemy. That's it. Hardly comparable to simulating an 360 degree arena around the enemy you can interact with at every axis needed.

>>2881023

I don't think he was "triggered" or whatever. It is indeed extremely stupid to make the argument that one game is superior over another just because of one person who plays it.

>>2881097
The guy got baited. Deal with it.

>>2878920
all zelda games

>>2881056
>Pics? I'd really like to see this, so I can stop saying that.

Not him, and I don't have pics, but Dragon Quest 3 introduced a day/night cycle in which the colour palette slowly changes on the overworld as time passes, and events in towns differ depending on the time of day. It's arguably more fleshed out in that game than in OoT, since there's a lot of things that differ in towns between day and night. There's even a quest that requires you to sneak into a castle at night to catch an imposter king while he sleeps.

>>2881162

all video games tbqh

>>2881271
All video games are casual and bad, there are no good games.

someone on /v/ actually posted this once

>>2878920
>>2881162
all enjoyable games

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This board is so lame. You act like your taste in video games is so refined, but all you talk about is the same shit all the time.

>Is this Final Fantasy game good?
>What Mega Man game should I start with?
>muh CRT
>muh Doom
>muh Roller Coaster Tycoon
>SMB3 or SMW?
>LttP or LA?
>OOT or MM?
>Zelda 1 or 2?

Did I miss anything?

>>2881319
This is why we desperately need to pull our heads out of our collective asses and rope 6th gen and GBA into the discussion. They're already retro anyway.

>>2881325
>already retro

Where is this magical universally agreed rule on what is retro and what is not?

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>>2881325

/vr/ with 6th gen:

>Is this Kingdom Hearts game good?
>What Fable game should I start with?
>muh flat screen
>muh Halo
>muh mid 00s browser games
>rachet and clanker 1 or 2?
>GTA3 or vice city?
>San Andreas or Liberty City Stories?
>GTA Advance or Vice City Stories?

>>2881319
Ok, what do you like to play then?

>>2879439
You should kill yourself for coming up with this and thinking its correct in any way.

>>2879439
>3D lock-on targeting.

Megaman Legends

>context-sensitive action button.

At least 400 games have had this feature before OOT

>manipulable vehicle.

Same as above

>still the only 3D game with interactive time-travel other than its sequel.

That's a very specific plot device and has no bearing as an aspect introduced to video games

>still the only game with an optional vehicle of travel that alters your ability to progress.

Wat. Are you joking?

>still the only game with a dedicated instrument you can play/record your own tunes on in-game.

Once again, very plot specific

>might still be the only game that has a sidequest that extends nonlinearity of the main-game

Okay you're just a liar or you don't play video games at all. Which is it?

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They're both okay really, but they're far from the best games ever.

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>>2881325
So retro.

>>2881336
That sounds great.

>>2878954
I agree with you to an extent, but I think you're missing what it actually IS that fans like so much about OoT. Which makes it hard for you to justify your position in a meaningful way to those fans.

Anyway, when I play a Zelda game, it's all about the gameplay. Not the story, characters, atmosphere or anything else. Just the gameplay and design (speaking in terms of level layouts and puzzles, BTW). So I love the original Zelda and AlttP. They're both carried entirely by their gameplay and general design, with other factors coming in second.

OoT is an atmosphere building game first and foremost. It has very distinct music, sounds, colors, and etc. It draws you in because of the atmosphere, and then you don't mind the fact that it's actually a mediocre game otherwise.
Kind of like Sony Fans and Soul Reaver.

And I know I'll get shit on for this, because Nintendo fans all still seem to think that OoT's gameplay is 10/10, GOAT and all that derpiness. But really. Even for the time, combat was repetitive and a chore at times and a lot of game elements on their own were par at best. It's just that the way that those elements interact makes the game better than the sum of it's parts. Rather like Resident Evil 4, actually (but that's another topic for another time)

It's the whole experience that draws people into OoT, and not any one element (like gameplay). So if you go in expecting it to play amazingly, then yeah. You'll hate it. If you go in expecting to have a grand adventure and get drawn in by the atmosphere, then you'll fucking love it.

All that aside, OoT is only the third most over rated game ever made. Behind Final Fantasy VII and Halo. But it's not exactly BAD. It's just not THAT good.
I'd personally rate it as a 7.5/10 game on the whole. But I'm not into games like OoT in general.

Oh, and what's up with SotN beng "the first"? It was a super Metroid Rip off, and Castlevania 2 did a similar formula first as well. SotN is more like the 5th, lol...

>>2879439
>The only reason video games even evolved beyond the N64 in any margin of sense is because of OOT and MM.

Doom and Ultima are more important to modern games than anything coming out of Japan.

>Ocarina of Time proved a sandbox game could be completed.

Daggerfall proves the same 2 years earlier. Hell, LoZ proved it 12 years prior to OOT and was far more sandboxy than OOT.

>context-sensitive action button.
if by "first" you mean "another game in a long line of games with an action key", then you're right.

>manipulable vehicle
what do you mean by "manipulable" exactly?

>still the only 3D game with interactive time-travel other than its sequel.

although its a shit game and tumblr tier, Life is Strange has far more interactive time travel.

>still the only game with an optional vehicle of travel that alters your ability to progress.

Morrowind's expansions require vehicle use. Also, if you git fucking gud, epona nor the longshot are needed to enter gerudo valley.

>still the only game with a dedicated instrument you can play/record your own tunes on in-game.

Mario paint arguably wins this if you count a midi synthesizer as an instrument.

>might still be the only game that has a sidequest that extends nonlinearity of the main-game (Scarecrow's Song)

The scarecrow's song allows no sequence breaks in the main quest. It's almost 100% used for side quests or convenience.

>>2881430
Both Doom and Ultima only came because of what Japan had done before.

Daggerfall didn't do what Ocarina of Time did, or in a mass market way that appealed to everyone. Daggerfall isn't very good.

LoZ is hardly a sandbox. You can go wherever, but you get fucked if you don't do it properly.

>tumblr tier
>life is strange

>Morrowind

>Mario Paint is a game, not a program

>Arguing about a sidequest that's a sidequest

>>2881437

Can you find me an interview or something where Carmack talks about some Japanese inspirations for Doom? Maybe pull up some MSX proto-FPS or something?

I'm new to this thread and what you're saying seems semi-plausible, but I can't really think of any Japanese FPS precursors. To me at least that genre seems almost fully Western.

I don't really know anything about the history of Ultima and WRPG vs. JRPGs so I'll skip that one.

>>2881437
>Daggerfall isn't very good.

I invite you to die on purpose

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>>2881336
>Didn't see a FIFA 2015 thread, let's change that

Th-thanks, retro video games /vr/

>>2878945
>Skyward Sword better than anything at all
opinion invalidated.

>>2881542
Playing Skyward Sword is SLIGHTLY better than being flailed to death I guess.

>>2881437
>Both Doom and Ultima only came because of what Japan had done before.

Don't know if troll or just stupid.

Ultima 1 directly inspired literally every top-down RPG and action game on the japanese market, including final fantasy and LoZ.

As far as doom, pls see the reply I make to the next poster.

>Daggerfall didn't do what Ocarina of Time did
I beg to differ. Daggerfall did what Nintendon't.

>mass market way that appealed to everyone
nobody gives a fuck because that's not what we're discussing.

Argument was whether a sandbox game could be completed. Daggerfall was a sandbox game that could be completed.

Hell, if we want to mince shit, move goalposts, and discount Daggerfall altogether, Elite was a sandbox game that came out even earlier. Hell, so is Frontier: Elite 2.

>Daggerfall isn't very good.
Again, no fucks given. We're not talking about whether it's good, or whether it has mass market appeal: we're talking about whether it's a sandbox game or not.

>LoZ is hardly a sandbox. You can go wherever, but you get fucked if you don't do it properly.

Git gud and this doesn't happen. Srsly, grind for rupees and get heart containers to get the blue ring and the white sword and most of the dungeons can be done in any order.

The only reason it isn't a sandbox is because you're making blind assertions about it. If anything, it's a far more non-linear game than OOT.

>Mario Paint is a game, not a program
I can concede this

>Arguing about a sidequest that's a sidequest
Again, stick to the fucking point and don't move goalposts.

Primary argument made was
>has a sidequest that extends nonlinearity of the main-game

response was
>The scarecrow's song allows no sequence breaks in the main quest

I'm correct in refuting the main argument. Scarecrow's song doesn't "extend nonlinearity of the main-game" -- it allows access to a few heart containers and gold skulltulas and provides a single convenience in making the sacred forest meadow slightly easier

>>2881478
>Can you find me an interview or something where Carmack talks about some Japanese inspirations for Doom?

The only thing I can think of that inspired ID software from japan would have been ID's idea to port SMB3 which pioneered PC side-scrollers like commander keen.

Outside of that, Doom itself was derived from ID's D&D games, Lovecraft, Alien and Carmack pouring over research papers discussing rendering technology.

tl;dr japan gave ID a non-doom related programming exercise early on in their careers.

>>2881407
>OoT is an atmosphere building game first and foremost. It has very distinct music, sounds, colors, and etc. It draws you in because of the atmosphere
>It's the whole experience that draws people into OoT, and not any one element

Completely agreed, in this regard it is superior to everything else.

>and then you don't mind the fact that it's actually a mediocre game otherwise.

But disagreed here. The enemies could have been far better of course, but the mysteries, exploration, world design and so on are absolutely top notch, and at least very much superior to LttP. I'm actually very much buthurt that LoZ pulled off the style of difficulty that the rest of the series should have taken after, yet doesn't. It's the one thing about OoT that I would change if I could, and its unfortunate that the remake didn't go far enough here.

>>2880412
>will readily admit that my opinion is heavily influenced by nostalgia-goggles, though

And thank god for that. I see way too many LttP fans who act all superior for reasons that are completely imaginary and have no basis in reality. I'm glad to see some sanity for once.

>>2879076
>>2879124
>Alundra is better than any 2D Zelda.

As someone who's at the final palace of Alundra right now, this is complete bullshit. Alundra is essentially the equivalent of what TP would have been were it 2D. It's mostly a huge slog through a long sequence of dungeons. It doesn't have better quests, exploration, atmosphere or storytelling than Zelda, and combat wise it's sightly less difficult than LttP. You get some freedom on getting the spring beans, but there's nothing massively compelling or interactive about the world.

The most notable thing it has is a handful of logic puzzles that are more difficult than the Zelda equivalent, but it otherwise lacks the cleverly constructed mysteries that Zelda has.

>>2881559
It's pretty insane how bad that game was.

I'd like to give them credit for trying new things but I can't, it was just that terrible.

>>2882412

What do you expect? Modern Nintendo is just a generally terrible company. The Wii is the perfect console to represent them: sterile, flimsy, highly derivative, half-assed, and thoroughly laced with gimmicks.

I like them both.

>>2882427

Same. I like ALTTP too, though not as much.

>>2882417
I like the Wii Us lineup. I like Nintendos "fun first" mentality. I strongly dislike their policies regarding DLC and recorded game footage.

To each their own though

>>2879045

>any Zelda game
>hard
no

>>2882467
>DLC
What, price things like they did 10 years ago? Super Smash Bros is probably the second most expensive game to get all the DLC simply because they want ridiculous amounts of money for it. (First was DOA5LR, by an unbelievable margin).

MM is too sad. trash it

>>2878920
The answer is: yes.

>>2882467
Super Mario Maker is *almost* interesting. And even then, only because of the events surrounding the Ryckoning.

That's the nicest thing I can say about the WiiU's library. There is nothing else there that interests me in the slightest. But that's just me.

>>2882491

Really? I find Nintendo's DLC to be extremely cheap compared to, say, Call of Duty DLC.

>>2882467

If Nintendo had a "fun-first" mentality they'd use a standard goddamn controller like everyone else and be a lot friendlier to 3rd party devs. They'd also either clean up their online garbage or chuck it out altogether, it's not fun in the least.

>>2882798

The Wii U Gamepad and Pro Controller are both amazing and some of my favorite controllers ever.

>>2882843
You are fucking delusional.

I was gonna ask why are you guys discussing /v/ shit, then I remembered this thread was /v/ form the very beginning.

>>2878920
Wow, you should have thrown a "NOW THAT THE DUST HAS SETTLED" and a "MY WIFE AND I" into this for the full shitpost trifecta

>>2878920
The obvious answer (so obvious that I don't even know why it's a question) is Ocarina of Time, which has been consistently called the greatest game of all time for 17 years running. Majora's Mask was actually panned for a long time for being so different and only fairly recently have defenders come out of the woodwork. There is a hugely vocal fanbase championing for Majora's Mask but it still doesn't hold a candle to the praise Ocarina of Time got and still gets.

>>2883159
>(so obvious that I don't even know why it's a question)

It's not all that obvious because:

a) Ocarina really is that good
b) MM's fanbase are crazy and completely adamant that the game has no flaws whatsoever and if you dislike any aspect of it is clearly your fault and you'd not care if you just got gud

>>2883206
I suppose if you buy into the bullshit hype surrounding OoT, then yeah, that's what it seems like. However people whose nostalgia goggles aren't on so tight that they cut off the bloodflow to their brains see it differently.

>>2883124

$GAME had better waifus
$GAME has aged terribly
Only autists like $GAME

>>2883272
>So I was talking with my wife the other day, and now that it's been 15 years and the dust has settled, we decided to talk about MM and OoT. My wife thinks OoT has aged terribly and is just boring by today's standards, while I think MM is a bullshit autistic time-management simulator, even if it did have slightly better waifus.

>>2883283

Holy shit, saved as pasta for reference in future shitposting endevours.

From now on, bullshit threads just get a neverending stream of this.

>>2879870
This is correct. Some people really like TP even though it was entirely forgettable, barely worthy of being called a Zelda.

At least it was better than Skyward Sword.

>>2883226
>I suppose if you buy into the bullshit hype surrounding OoT
I played it having no idea what the hell the game was supposed to be like or that it was regarded as what it was. It completely blew me away like nothing else has and absolutely deserves to be considered the GOAT, and that's in spite of the weaknesses it has. At the very least is has the best foundation in the series, even though having NES tier combat balance and MM/WW level NPC interaction would meaningfully improve it.

LttP is the most nostalgia dependent game by a fair margin.

>>2883519
When? Were you fucking 9? It's impossible to be a gamer on the internet and not hear the fanboys sucking it's cock.

And if you were a child, it's very hard to remove nostalgia from your view.

>>2883526
So what do you regard as being better? What are the titles that have come out since then that have clearly surpassed it? I mean hell, I played it after getting over the "holy shit, vidya is just awesome" stage and it really surprised me how good it was. Plenty of people who played it as adults also had similar reactions.

>>2878920
Neither,

They were God tier games.

>>2883206
Majora's Mask is one of my favorite games of all time. I think it's absolutely fascinating. But I will be the first one to tell you it has some BIG glaring problems that are hard to forgive. It does some stuff real well, and it does some other stuff real bad. I can't recommend it to people without providing caveats.

>>2883632
What are some of the big glaring problems you think it has?

>>2883654
I think a lot of the stuff with the time management and backtracking and repetition could have been smoothed out and designed in a way that is less bothersome. I don't care for the dungeons much at all. I think there are a lot of aspects of that game that are just tedious and kind of frustrating. I do love it dearly, but I understand why people take issue with it. I think those complaints are totally valid.

>>2883690
Respectable opinion, anon. Likewise, I see what people who love the game enjoy so much about it, but I personally didn't find it much fun for the reasons you listed. For me it's a game that I appreciate more than I enjoy, and for that reason I can respect people who are able to enjoy it even though I don't feel the same.

>>2883765
I love that we turned this shitpost bait thread into actual conversation. This is lovely.

>>2878920
Ocarina.
Majora is close but there are still MANY who see OoT as the "definitive" game in the franchise, and the "best" more or less.

>>2882491
Actually what I was getting at. That shit is nuts. Should be a 5 dollar bundle for costumes and a character and that's it.

>>2882651
Different strokes for different folks. Wonderful 101, Bayonetta 2, and a handful of others.

Mostly everything I want is multiplat, so I could get a PC for the ones I want and say fuck off to consoles. The only game I'd like is Bloodborne, and there's no way of knowing if it'll be on PC anytime soon.

Again, that's a personal preference sort of thing.

>>2878920
Both games are great and deserve a severe amount of praise. Grow up, and quit being butthurt that people don't like the same things as you.

>>2881430
>Doom and Ultima are more important to modern games than anything coming out of Japan.
Never.
>Daggerfall
See above. Daggerfall didn't do anything better than OoT.
>if by "first" you mean "another game in a long line of games with an action key", then you're right.
Context-sensitive action button means a button which dynamically changes function depending on the context. Roll, grab, throw, take out fairy, jump, jump attack, cancel, dive, dismount. Etc.
>what do you mean by "manipulable" exactly?
It's a vehicle you can interact with in 3D by getting on or off and not just a change in avatar.
>although its a shit game and tumblr tier, Life is Strange has far more interactive time travel.
Not played, so I won't consider it.
>Morrowind's expansions require vehicle use. Also, if you git gud, epona nor the longshot are needed to enter gerudo valley.
Expansions are not part of the game, unless I'm missing something. And pause buffering doesn't count as it's an exploit. That is what I was referring to, but there's also the Biggoron Sword quest and all of Gerudo Valley can only be reached with Epona if you don't have the Longshot (even if you pause buffer, you still need the Hookshot or Epona).
>Mario paint arguably wins this if you count a midi synthesizer as an instrument.
Does Mario Paint record duration, octave, pitch? I don't know so I'm asking.
>The scarecrow's song allows no sequence breaks in the main quest. It's almost 100% used for side quests or convenience.
Scarecrow's Song is almost exclusively for sequence-breaks. Skipping the forest maze, getting to the Fishing Hole with only a Hookshot, getting Fire Arrows early, Fire Temple early and skipping Link-Goro and Sheik. The only scarecrow points that aren't are the Fire Temple's that takes you to the elevator, the one in Jabu-Jabu on top of the giant boulder, and the one in Dodongo's Cavern.

>>2878920
>oot
>Zelda, now in 3d

>mm
>one of the most unique and memorable zeldas

>>2878954
>having to go back to Temple of Time to warp every time
>that shitty overworld
>the only fleshed out town is Hyrule (child)/Kakariko (adult)
These are artifacts of older Zeldas, it's also probably laziness as well. Since 3D Zeldas have less of a focus on combat and more about atmosphere/overall experience, there is no reason to have just two towns. The game is just... lacking in content. I think they focused too heavily on dungeons, which is sad because they aren't even that good.

>none of the enemies pose a challenge aside from Iron Knuckle, who is rare
You would have to absolutely suck at video games to find a 3D Zelda to be difficult, in terms of combat (especially with all the bottles and stuff). Using your shield practically grants you invincibility, and you'd risk being called a liar if you said that most enemies in this game were aggressive. I will say, though, that some of the bosses, like Jabu's, were well done. I had a really good time fighting JabuJabu's boss.

It's a game about atmosphere. You'd have to be retarded to say that this Zelda is the pinnacle of the series' gameplay. Now, I'm primarily an action gamer. But, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate atmosphere. I prefer MM, and I'm able to admit that one of the reasons for that is because of it's atmosphere. The atmosphere in MM has a tone; dark, brooding, maybe frantic. What is the atmosphere tone in OoT?

Some people like things for inexplicable reasons. That's ok. But still, I fail to understand why OoT is praised so highly; especially in comparison to MM. This thread is about a comparison between the two, and MM completely blows OoT out of the water. I seriously am trying to think of things that this game did well, and I'm at a loss. Combat sucks, puzzles are either way too easy or super tedious, I never really felt any atmosphere, much of the world is empty...

Slightly unrelated, but I'll finish by saying that I really liked the Master Quest version of OoT.

>>2885653
>What is the atmosphere tone in OoT?
More complex and difficult to describe than any other game. IT combines and contrasts many different feelings together.

>>2878920
I've never seen anyone call MM the greatest game ever made
mind you I haven't seen OoT called that in quite some time, but the point stands that OoT has been sung more praise than Majora, even though in my humble opinion Majora deserves it more (neither of them are GOAT)

>>2885412
>Does Mario Paint record duration, octave, pitch? I don't know so I'm asking.

Mario paint literally has a midi synthesizer. see
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akseS3O9KdQ

>Scarecrow's Song is almost exclusively for sequence-breaks

This is true, but the topic isn't sequence breaks in general...it's main quest sequence breaks.

Do shadow and spirit ahead of fire and forest on account of the scarecrow and I'll consider it.

>Not played, so I won't consider it.

The plot is literally that you're a hipster girl that has the power to arbitrarily rewind time. The gameplay is basically "do this, fuck it up, rewind time, pick the right answer".

>Never.
Many modern game engines incorporate code from doom, as inherited by quake.
If the engine isn't directly a descendant of doom/quake, then it was made as a competitor to doom/quake (seem unreal, marathon, halo, etc).

Ultima 1 inspired literally every other top-down adventure and RPG game that exists. Period.
Ultima underworld was the first in the line of games like system shock, deus ex, and others that created the whole modern "3D action RPG" genre.

As far as japanese games go, though, they stopped being relevant to the industry after RE4. Literally nothing from japan has had an effect on western game design since, with everything in the west being basically Deus Ex++, GTA with RE4's camera and shooting mechanics, or a sports game. Or, of course, a tell-tale game that is basically a 70s text adventure but with graphics.

>It's a vehicle you can interact with in 3D by getting on or off and not just a change in avatar.

oh, ok. Conceded. I was going to reference daggerfall's horse, but that's not manipulable by this definition.

>See above. Daggerfall didn't do anything better than OoT.

"See above"? What, the word "never", which I refuted?

Also, it's not about it being better -- it's about it meeting the definition of "completable sandbox", which it definitely is.

>>2885706
>Mario Paint
I see, but that's not quite the same.
>Do shadow and spirit ahead of fire and forest
I'm 99% certain you never need either the bow or hammer for the Shadow Temple. Because of this, you can use the Scarecrow's Song if you have the Longshot (for which only Din's Fire is needed), to skip over to Bongo Bongo and avoid shooting down the raven statue at the end.
In Early OoT screenshots you see that Link was able to plant Magic Beans as an adult. but on topic, there was no heart piece with a crate in the graveyard. Because there is in the final game, you can bomb jump and seam walk into the Shadow Temple, which is just an exploration of the game's physics.
At this point you can enter with Din's Fire or Fire Arrows (only available with Scarecrow's Song before completing the Water) and complete the dungeon. Though, that is entering exploit territory, as it means you can enter Ganon's Castle upon completing the Spirit Temple. But this may be intentional.

>Doom/Ultima
I've seen this posted before in John Carmack's quote, but I've never see evidence for it. Everything else you posted is anecdotal to that. I doubt that SM64 runs on Doom's engine.Also, western games still rip-off off Winback.

>And Daggerfall.
It's procedurally generated. Doesn't count.

>>2885782
>At this point you can enter with Din's Fire or Fire Arrows (only available with Scarecrow's Song before completing the Water) and complete the dungeon.


if you're using ISG to bomb jump and seam walk to the shadow temple entrance, you can also sidehop past the load trigger for the shadow temple's door, thus negating the need for dins fire.

but at that point, you're firmly in exploit territory.

>I doubt that SM64 runs on Doom's engine

I also don't see any modern games outside of the Mario series that are influenced by sm64.

Japan had a games crash in the 2000s. American companies now dominate the industry, and unsuprisingly, American devs draw influence from American made forebears.

>>2885782
>It's procedurally generated. Doesn't count.

why not?

>>2881319
You forgot obligatory SOTN shitfest, but otherwise hit all the nails square.

I somehow missed out on the N64 Zeldas as a kid and played both for the first time a few years ago as a teenager. The reason they're beloved isn't nostalgia, they really are great games and hold up fine despite their flaws. I'd put them as equal, but I guess if I really had to I'd say I prefer MM slightly just for the atmosphere. Even though the time system eventually becomes meaningless, running out for the first time is one of the most memorable experiences in gaming.

>>2878938
LTTP>LoZ>MM>LA>WW>OoT>TP>SS

>>2885658
It's a perfect Hero's Quest that sums up the childlike feeling of adventure/ going out into the big scary world plus the feeling of being a truly special person, enhanced by amazing art direction and music. So basically its Star Wars is what I realized while writing this.

>>2887787
LTTP is a better heroes quest

>>2887789
Agree with that. LTTP was probably the first video game I owned which made the feeling that much stronger.

File: binky.gif (32KB, 607x426px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 607x426px

>>2878920
OoT
>better dungeons
>better boss battles
>story is poetic and timeless
MM
>better side quests
>alternate universes and shit
>masks were goat
Both are good in their own ways
Windwaker is the best 3d zelda game

>>2887769
>hold up fine despite their flaws

How the fuck are you claiming to know that they held up fine if you never played them when they were new? How can you make the comparison? Oh, you can't.

>>2888940
>Windwaker is the best 3d zelda game
I respect your opinion, but to me not really.

>>2889318
What the fuck does a comparison have anything to do with it? And what the hell do modern games do so much better that they would be obsoleted by anyway?

>>2887769
I'ld say its a mixed bag.

Music was fantastic.
Areas were well made.

World was small yet travel was still annoying.
The loss of color variety sucked, way too much brown and green in the same shades.
Lack of a jump button and better climbing options was annoying.
Aiming with the N64 was annoying.
Many enemies and puzzle styles didn't adapt well to 3D.
Gameplay and combat were way to simplified, weird thing to say I know considering where it came from, but there so often was just one solution to a situation.

I will say the spirit was still there and for those who played these as their first Zelda's I can see how exciting it would be anticipating the next place to explore and see at the time. Many of my complaints are likely tied to the N64 hardware itself as well.

>>2889490
>Lack of a jump button
Why should there be a jump button? Wouldn't that be unnecessary considering most of the jumping is done automatically anyways? I can understand most of your other points however.

>better climbing options
Meh. I thought the climbing was decent as is. Wasn't much fast but wasn't much slow either like in TP.

>>2889490
>World was small yet travel was still annoying.
Much more true of LttP and AoL. The 64 games give you appropriate shortcuts out the wazoo.

>The loss of color variety sucked, way too much brown and green in the same shades.
Wut? What are you even comparing them to? How many games even make better use of color?

>Lack of a jump button and better climbing options was annoying.
Again, LA and AoL were the only things with jumping, and you couldn't climb.

>Aiming with the N64 was annoying.
Compared to not being able to aim at all aside from cardinal directions and having full rotational freedom? You rarely had to aim a enemies specifically, except when this was a deliberate challenge.

>Many enemies...didn't adapt well to 3D
The one actually solid and perfectly reasonable criticism here. What 'puzzle styles' are you talking about though?

>Gameplay, too simplified, but there so often was just one solution to a situation
This is flat out false. The 64 titles are at least as complex as any 2D game, easily, and hardly want for things with multiple solutions. The 2D titles don't have quests as elaborate. The combat is the one thing that they are actually substantially weaker at.

>>2878925
It's not the time system in and of itself but the npcs going about their lives and responding to the environment as you change it was very novel.

It's not deep solely because of the time system but if you think it didn't add a lot then you're fucking crazy.

>>2889508
Because jumping would have put more control in the players hand. The automatic jump was lame because you may as well not have a need to jump anyway. Would have made it feel a bit more of an adventure by giving more control to the player. And it was absolutely possible for it to have been that way.


>>2889546
>Much more true of LttP and AoL. The 64 games give you appropriate shortcuts out the wazoo.
Rolling around until you get horse so no. That was annoying.

>Wut? What are you even comparing them to? How many games even make better use of color?
LttP had more colors. N64s limited hardware had to shade everything instead of using a range like previous hardware or textures, which is why most N64 games look like a box of basic crayola colors. Not really Zelda's fault, but still its less interesting to look at.

>Again, LA and AoL were the only things with jumping, and you couldn't climb.
Not relevant. Its not about what other Zelda games did, its about what should have been. Its something the player could have controlled, another aspect of challenge.

>Compared to not being able to aim at all aside from cardinal directions and having full rotational freedom? You rarely had to aim a enemies specifically, except when this was a deliberate challenge.
This is an excuse. Again a hardware limitation, but no less dumb to play look around for the eye to hit. It just slows shit down. Its a minor nitpick to be fair though.

>This is flat out false. The 64 titles are at least as complex as any 2D game, easily, and hardly want for things with multiple solutions. The 2D titles don't have quests as elaborate. The combat is the one thing that they are actually substantially weaker at.

The complexity was not a comparison of 2D to 3D, but poor use of 3D, with exception to the puzzles. Enemies basically waited around for you and the game was littered with wait until they stop blocking bad guys. As for the 2D vs 3D every puzzle was use the thing you just got. Less thinking.

>>2889615
>Because jumping would have put more control in the players hand.
But at what benefit?

>>2883621
this guy is the only one who isn't a hipster here
the rest of you are cancer
your idiotic arguments all boil down to
"Yes it is!"
"No, it's not!"
you're arguing opinion as if it's fact, and you're just as bad as the morons who beat eachother up over their favorite sports teams.

>>2889615
>Rolling around until you get horse so no.
You don't have to do this often at all. You gain access to at least one new short cut quickly on visiting each necessary place. You can go straight from the mountain to the woods, walk through a log and swim to Zora's domain, which can also be reached from Lake Hylia, which can be swum to from Gerudo Valley. And there's the owl's ability to fly you across the place on top of that. Running around LttP's world with the big moat in the centre is more annoying.

>LttP had more colors.
What the actual fuck? I don't even know where to begin here.
>N64s limited hardware had to shade everything
I assume you aren't aware of what bi-linear filtering is, or how to match texture co-ordinates in screen space? LttP has a straight up much more restricted pallet.

>As for the 2D vs 3D every puzzle was use the thing you just got. Less thinking.
Again, what? What are examples of the more advanced quests/puzzles/mysteries in the 2D games that the 3D games supposedly don't have? Why is it that LttP fans seem to have such bizarre conceptions of the games?

Really the best one is the OoS and OoA, and all you 3D guys don't know what's a great game.

>>2889383
What's your favorite family?

God I hate A Link to the Past. "Here, explore almost the exact same world again but in a different color". And it goes on and on. There's like 12 dungeons and I was losing interest by the 5th one. It's so stretched out.

Link's Awakening and OoT are so much better.

>>2878920
Is hip to hate on OoT nowadays, so MM.

>>2879015
To be fair, it was only the 5th game.
They hadn't yet decided on what things were worth putting into every game ever yet.

>>2890854
I don't have a concrete favorite; that said, I still like most of them for different reasons.

>>2881407
>>2881969
>>2881430
>>2885653
>>2885782
>>2885706
>>2887769

I thought this was /vr/, not /lit/.

>>2889465

>What the fuck does a comparison have anything to do with it?

You never played it when it was new, you have no way of comparing it's quality at release with it now, you cannot make the statement that it aged well. You have no idea if it aged well, you just enjoyed it.

>>2894084
Which is irrelevant to saying that it holds up, meaning that someone playing it now will enjoy it.

>>2893809
Fuck you, /vr/ could use more posts like these. Or do you just want to shitpost and spout memes all day long?

>>2878920
They're both masterpieces and deserve every ounce of praise they get, you degenerate contrarian dumb-fuck.

>>2879076
Daily reminder: nobody gives a fuck about your weeb shit.

>>2894250
>i never played them so they must be shit!

epic

>>2880431
>Twilight Princess right afterwards is what caused me to realise that Zelda was tired and shit tier and probably never an above average series to begin with.
Nah, that's just true of most of the series after TP. That said, I personally felt Okami was just okay as a game with its only high points being the graphics and the somewhat interesting brush system.

It's hard since they are so different.

But i respect OoT for being one of the first 3-d games that actually felt like an epic adventure and i respect MM beacause nintendo will never have the balls to produce something like it again.