RPGs peaked in the 4th and 5th generation.

>>2787029
https://youtu.be/bHACPiNlxqo?t=18s

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3rd and 4th gen for me.

I didn't care too much for 5th gen ones, too many FMV cutscenes and loading times, in a genre like this, loading times and slow animations were a deal-breaker for me.

PD Saga is still stellar though.

>>2787032
This. 5th gen was shit. 4th was the peak.

>>2787032
>>2787036
CDs may have had load time but they also allowed for some amazing music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS8vCLXX5Pg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU5tQIDMAEw

>>2787029
Because this is about the same time other genres started experimenting with putting cutscenes and more story into game, so after that jrpgs suddenly had competition as prime storytelling medium in vidya. Other genres developed new ways to tell the stories while jrpg companies just sunk more money into costly cgi cutscenes.

>>2787029
I would argue for just inside notretro, because of DQVIII.

>>2787036
>5th gen was the shit
Agreed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72jAMCHL-2c

>>2787780

ah so this was the victorian game people were talking about in the other thread.

is the translation available?

>>2787029
Final Fantasy 7 is seriously the only good game on there. Also, Chrono Cross, are you retarded?

>>2787029
>Chrono Cross

This must be a troll thread. Also DQIX and Etrian Odyssey are fantastic so your argument is shit on that level as well.

>>2787831
Star Ocean 2 was breddy gud as well.

Yeah probably. My favorite JRPG full stop was 6th gen though (Skies of Arcadia)

>>2787829
>Final Fantasy 7 is seriously the only good game on there
If you seriously believe that you're retarded. And don't pretend like you've even played Panzer Saga.

>>2787850
Skies of Arcadia is kiddie shit, Final Fantasy 7 destroys anything competing with it.

>>2787854
Not him, and I have little positive to say about Skies of Arcadia, but FFVII really isn't all that great either.

The Genesis and Apocalypse of Japanese Games

Chapter 1: The NES Era - Censorship and wanton localization rampant.

Chapter 2: The SNES Era - Censorship and wanton localization rampant, but several prophets appear and prefigure the glory to come - the precursor age.

Chapter 3: The PS1 Era - Censorship greatly reduced, Japanese style seen as laudable, original assets preserved - the golden age.

Chapter 4: The PS2 Era - Censorship still greatly reduced, Japanese style still mostly seen as laudable at the beginning but cracks appear by the end, original assets still mostly preserved; but the false prophet appears who will lead video games to damnation, still - the silver age.

Chapter 5: The PS3/Handheld Era - Western devs following the paradigm of the false prophet gain traction, their benefactors known as the dudebros gain far larger scope and scale for their games and their buying power dwarfs that of the audience of Japanese games; censorship begins again; Japanese style seen as "weird" and "foreign," preserved for niche releases only - the doomed age.

Chapter 6: The Final Death - Censorship becoming rampant, Japanese style deplored and games are rated down for appearing "too Japanese" or "too weird," dudebros are ascendant, even niche releases begin to be censored, niche fans become so deluded that they begin worshiping false messiahs of far inferior quality as the "savior" of JRPGs despite that fact that no game will bring back the days long gone - the final age.

Chapter 7: The End - Nowhere for niche, middle and low budget games to release but phones; other platforms filled with nothing but western releases, all former Japanese franchises obliterated or westernized - and after that, the dreadful judge will judge Vidya. The End.

>>2787029

Can't argue with that

Now they're out of steam and out of new ideas.

>>2787854
>kiddie shit

Good to know this is the level /vr/ is at now.

>>2787859
It's been a long and depressing road. I remember when Enchanted Arms came out and review outlets were slamming it for having turned based battles. I knew then it was over.

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>>2787859
intredasting

>>2787859
>Censorship
You legitimately have no idea what you're talking about. Hilarious post overall though. So if that's what you're going for, 10/10.

>>2787868
People who pay attention to reviews are retards.

>>2787870
you really think I just wrote all this stuff? You are such a dumby

>>2787872
Yes, but a lot of people would still read them. And as soon as the taste makers for the market decide that everything that make JRPGs and Japanese games great is now "outdated" I knew the future was brown western trash.

It's YouTubers instead of Journalists now, which is even worse in some ways.

>>2787854
I really don't understand why people find FF7's fanbase so awful.

/vr/ is one person and he officially thinks all jrpg are pointless garbage. Go play an actually challenging game with real gameplay, such as horizontal shmups (none of that bullet hell crap that killed the genre).

>>2787881
You should try Final Fantasy Dimensions on Android. It plays exactly like classic Final Fantasy but the stats and character builds are vastly more complex. It's really good.

>>2787876
Well whomever wrote it has no idea what they're talking about. Genuine censorship is very different from why games were localized the way they were.

>>2787868

Witcher 3 is quite colorful and pretty in places. Certainly moreso than the Souls games Japan gave us.

Pokemon remains very popular, is bright and colourful.

Dragon Quest IX came out three years after Enchanted Arms, has traditional RPG trappings, is super colorful and was extremely well reviewed and popular.

>>2787891
Not him. Localization and censorship aren't exclusive to each other.

>>2787940
Obviously. But the vast majority of what people call censorship was actually just the companies localizing the games in the way they thought would be best for the NA market they were going into.

>>2787951

I didn't ask them to do that. Especially without disclosing it.

>>2787951
A lot of the modern rpgs are censored. Look at the Yokai Watch stuff.

But ya people call any change to the original source material censorship.

Well this thread turned into /v/ real fast.

>>2787951
>just the companies localizing the games in the way they thought would be best for the NA market they were going into by using censorship
Censorship doesn't mean 'muh oppression' or whatever meaning you see in it exclusively. Simply cutting or replacing inconvenient for sales in NA market content is of course a censorship.

>>2787954
That doesn't make it censorship though. Maybe you need to get a dictionary and remind yourself what the word means.

>>2787958
Turned implies it started out decent and then got bad. There was no turn. It was like this from OP.

>>2787854
>Skies of Arcadia is kiddie shit
We're doing this now?

>>2787969

I mean yeah, OP's opinion is rather shitty and the picture is also kind of bad, but at least it stayed /vr/ until someone started with the censorship part. I don't browse /v/ everyday but I'm aware "censorship" is right now one of the hottest, dankest topics and bait material on /v/, that's why I said that.

>>2787968
>Simply cutting or replacing inconvenient for sales in NA market content is of course a censorship.

It is absolutely 100% not. You are completely wrong. That's not censorship in any form, and if you think it is you really need to look it up because you don't understand what the word means.

>>2787976
>Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions
>or other information (like video games content)
>objectionable, sensitive, inconvenient
>other groups (like publishers)
Now I guess it'll be a completely wrong definition.

>>2787969

>That doesn't make it censorship though. Maybe you need to get a dictionary and remind yourself what the word means.

Here, let me get right on that:

cen·sor·ship
ˈsensərˌSHip/
noun
noun: censorship

the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts.
"details of the visit were subject to military censorship"

>unacceptable parts

It doesn't matter _why_ they found certain parts of a game unacceptable; the fact is they did and they suppressed or altered those aspects.

And before you go and pull that "hurrhurr, its not sensorship if companies doo it", may I remind you that your average corporation is more powerful than many world governments these days.

>>2787987
>suppression

There is zero suppression. Deciding not to release something in the form it's currently in because you think you can make more money and sell more copies if you make it more appealing to your target audience is not suppression of speech.

I don't know if you're legitimately too stupid to understand what censorship actually is, or are just acting like an idiot to bait responses but I can't be bothered with this anymore. I can't believe I had to explain something this obvious in the first place.

>>2787989
Is it suppression of Japanese when they change the language to English?

>>2787995
>is not suppression of speech.
So what you fucking retard? Where does that definition says that it only means a suppression of speech? Can't you read or something?

>>2788000
The speech is superfluous. The point is there's zero suppression of anything. The things being changed are being suppressed by anyone or anything. They're being changed to make the game more appealing to the market they're planning to try to sell it to. That's simply not censorship. It's marketing.

>>2788008
>The things being changed are not being suppressed by anyone or anything.

fixed

>>2787997

No, that's called translation. Now you're conflating meaning with presentation.

>>2787995

>And lo, verily a deafening cacophony was heard sweeping across the land. And it was most fucking retarded of tone and autistic of affect. And so it was that Anon. and his hissy-fit did proceed to savage all the lands of the earth with toddler-like glee.

>>2788008
>>2788010
>to suppress
>to withhold from disclosure or publication
Maybe you should use your own advice and go read a book you imbecile.

>>2788013
>>2788017
This is giving me a headache. If you people are serious and think this is what censorship is it's seriously depressing.

>>2788024
Yeah words are hard, sometimes they have several meanings.

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>>2788024

>This is giving me a headache.

Stare at this, it will help.

>>2788031
That maze easy. Just go around all the squiggly bits on the outside.

>>2787968
I consider cutting out cultural things that people "wouldn't get" to be a form of whitewashing, or even outright racism.

That's not even getting into insulting the customer. It would take literally five minutes to add a paragraph to the manual that explains the tradition of whateverthefuck in whatever country. By removing cultural things, you are literally saying "You cannot handle knowing things about other cultures".

>>2788057

I also see things a bit from this Anon's point-of-view, though I hesitate to use the "thas raycis" card.

>>2788031
Pretty cool, actually.

3rd gen was the beginning of console RPGs being approachable. Very few RPGs from that gen are even playable now.

4th was a huge spike in profitability and ease of creation. There were a ton of shitty ones, but many of them weren't localized.

5th Gen was when things got out of control. Even more companies were producing halfassed RPGs, but now they were more consistently localized. This combined with delays caused by CD format, developers having trouble with 3D game design, the CGI/cutscene Boom, flagpole franchises faltering and other factors led to stagnant sales.

They experienced a mini-revival halfway through Gen 6, but aside from low budget otaku bait they haven't really progressed since.

>>2787859
Hilarious and awesome. Who is this false prophet you speak of?

>>2787859

i'm imagining what you look like right now

>>2787850

I love skies of Acadia too.

>>2788327
Do you just enjoy talking out of your ass? Or do you really believe this shit?

First of all, third gen RPGs are still very playable, but simply don't live up to modern "standards" (IE, they don't all have TPS gameplay and "Purdy graffix!"). Archaic? Yes, but still very playable.

Second, what happened to JRPGs is that budget requirements went insane over time
and companies couldn't keep up with it in gen 6. Gen 4 and gen 5 both had tons of mediocre and generic RPGs, but EVERY fucking genre gat that treatment then. And nowhere NEAR as bad as now, I might add.

You can talk shot about RPGs all you want, but look at modern FPS, TPS, WRPGs, Sandbox games and everything else that are a dime a dozen and all have literally the exact same graphics, controls, camera system and by in large the same gameplay. JRPGs had their standardization, but one to the next could actually have very largely different gameplay elements, or totally different gameplay.
So to call them shit, when something ad horrid ad modern gaming exists just proves that you're a moron with shit taste.

>>2787889
is it good? I bought it (all three chapters, I think) but I am too old to sit through a 60+ hour rpg, any more. the first 5 hours were fun, and promising. should I power through until I get into the groove?

>>2787889
also, that game is on IOS, too. Square is pretty good about putting out their games on both systems

>>2787989
I think this particular situation stands. The game was created with a specific vision in mind and published by a company. a different company saw fit to alter that vision to maximize their profits.

however, if you ask most creators about their work being altered to suit markets other than the one they originally created for, I bet most of them would be cool with it. A lot of creators have expressed approval of cosmetic changes, if it allows the core experience to reach more people. I mean, if a two-second titty flash keeps a 30 hour game from reaching millions of 10 year-olds, why not cover the boobs so the kids can experience the rest?

It's not like back in the 50's, when movies were completely forbidden to ever deviate being sanitized, black-and-white morality plays. no sympathetic villains, no moral ambiguity

>>2788914
you are conflating "able to be played" with the concept of "playable", which means "enjoyable to play". sorry buddy, stone-age shit like the original Dragon Quest was barely fun when it hit, and is not fun at all, now

Peak of RPGs is the Golden Age of Final Fantasy, which lasted FROM Final Fantasy VI until Final Fantasy X. Anyone who tells you different has never plates good RPGs.

>>2787029
Mostly, yeah.

3rd is underrated as fuck though. This guy is basically right: >>2787032 even though he's being a tad too dismissive and there were plenty of cool 5th gen JRPGs.

>>2787859
Censorship is and was always rampant, like bad localization.
>Japanese style deplored and games are rated down for appearing "too Japanese" or "too weird,"
That happened since forever too.
>dudebros are ascendant
Dudebros were always the biggest part of the market, don't kid yourself.
>even niche releases begin to be censored
Just like they were back in the days?

I get this is a humorous post but damn son, at least get your points right.

I don't think an RPG will surpass Star Ocean 2 for me until fully immersive virtual reality reinvents the genre. There's a lot of impressive RPGs with more interesting mechanics, but SO2 has a great storyline, is easy to pick up and play no matter how long of a break you've taken, a lot to do in main story and side things, and is as cozy as it gets. It also has the perfect battle pacing, imo.

>>2787032
I didn't find load times to be an issue for most games however the port of Chrono Trigger on PS1 was fucking unbearable. I don't know how they botched it so bad to the point where you had to look at a black screen for like five seconds just to enter your party menu to use a healing item.

>>2787029
>fantasy jrpgs are the only rpgs in existence

protip: fantasy jrpgs were never good

>>2789198

There are non-fantasy jrpgs? Could you name some?

>>2789198

I concur, which is why FFVII is still the best JRPG,

>SNES
Super Mario RPG
Chrono Trigger
>N64
Paper Mario
>PS1
Chrono Cross

>>2789191

There was some fag on here earlier today who was actually trying to defend that shitty port

>>2788031
The trick to mazes is to start from the end and work you way back to the beginning just like the problems of real life.

>>2789136
>>dudebros are ascendant
>Dudebros were always the biggest part of the market, don't kid yourself.
Are you forgetting the majority of the 90s when video games were for geeks (a then derogatory term) and losers?

>>2789285
Nope. A good maze will be just as cunningly designed going backwards as well as forwards. The trick with mazes is to just always turn right. It's probably not the fastest route, but you never get lost and always make it to the end.

>>2789362
>The trick with mazes is to just always turn right. It's probably not the fastest route, but you never get lost and always make it to the end.
No, it will always take you back to the beginning. It is possible that it will never take you to the end. And if there's stuff like teleporters, one-way doors, spinners etc you might not make it back to the beginning either.

>>2789353
This was never the case and that stupid misconception needs to end. Even in the media then the joke was their over obsession with stuff like video games not the fact that they actually liked video games. Furthermore if someone made fun of you it wasn't because you liked video games it was because you got easily riled up over stupid shit so they probably used video games as something to get a response out of you.

>>2789371
>This was never the case and that stupid misconception needs to end. Even in the media then the joke was their over obsession with stuff like video games not the fact that they actually liked video games.

History rewriting anonymous, could you fix Christmas 1996? I wanted to get an N64 but had to wait another year. You have the power.

>>2789371
This guy is right. Heavy geeks like I was were marginalized probably a little more than they are now, but all sort of kids played video games. The biggest jock in our school could also body everyone in Street Fighter at the arcade.

Geeks are just made fun of cause we're weird. I doubt that will ever change much. Now they just call us autists.

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>>2789379
Nigga if normal people never liked video games in the 90s then how the fuck do you explain games like FF7 selling half a million copies in only three weeks or video game references popping up in mainstream culture? Drop the persecution complex and come to terms with the fact that you acted like a dumb sperg over video games back then making you an easy target for bullying.

ugly people always got the short end of the stick. if you looked at least physically active and presentable you wouldn't be picked on so much

>>2789353
>Are you forgetting the majority of the 90s when video games were for geeks (a then derogatory term) and losers?

Who the hell do you think was buying all those sports games that made Genesis #1 in America?

You have to at least admit that video games were not nearly as accepted by people like they are now. Sure, there were "cool kids" that liked video games, but most of them kept it as a dirty little secret.

>>2789389
Because it's a generational thing. FF7 was a hit with middle schoolers and high schoolers, a relatively limited market that was not in control of pop culture production. As those kids grew up, went through college, started producing pop culture of their own or started earning disposable income to consume the new pop culture, video games became more main stream than before.

In the 90's video games were considered childish because mostly children were engaged in them. The children that played games became adults that played games and so video games became socially acceptable.

>>2789389
>Drop the persecution complex and come to terms with the fact that you acted like a dumb sperg over video games back

By doing things like posting on video game forums?

most people played sports games and the fps type games weren't sufficiently present/good on consoles so yes, less people played games than do now

>>2789412
I was in college when FFVII came out and it was MASSIVE.

>>2789408
>You have to at least admit that video games were not nearly as accepted by people like they are now
Not at all. Gaming was more publicly acceptable than at any other time during the early 80s with the Golden Age of Arcade Gaming. A lot of people got laid playing Ms Pac- Man with a random chick they picked up at a bar. It was the rise of 'hardcore' gaming, and in particular, the rise of children gaming, which made video games look more dorky. I'd say now the same is still happening but for the opposite reason: games trying too hard to look mature and serious just makes gamers look insecure and immature.

You only just think gaming is more acceptable now because the 'culture' has finally been commoditized through the internet and globalization. It's not too dissimilar than the feeling of social enlightenment a person with autism feels when they encounter an online community of other people with autism.

>>2789418
Not the guy you're talking to. You are right for the most part, but in the 80's gaming was largely young and male. I certainly remember girls in arcades actually playing being a rarity and old people playing them was extremely rare.

The difference now is that you look at a group of people riding the train or waiting for something and regardless of age or gender half of them are playing something on their phone and many also game for recreation at home.

While I wouldn't say it's more accepted necessarily, it's certainly more popular.

>>2789414
That doesn't even make sense.

>>2789417
FF7 sold 300,000 on its opening weekend and 500,000 in its first 3 weeks.
Grand theft auto 3 which was more of a sleeper hit sold 12,000,000 in a little over a month.
Halo 2 sold 1,500,000 in pre orders alone.

FF7 was not "MASSIVE." Perhaps "massive within a limited demographic."

>>2789423
>The difference now is that you look at a group of people riding the train or waiting for something and regardless of age or gender half of them are playing something on their phone and many also game for recreation at home.
That's true, but I'd say most phone games have more in common with one armed bandits than with video games. And the slots in casinos have always been popular with all age groups.

>>2789432
You're making a causality error here. The data you cited does not necessarily suggest that Grand Theft Auto 3 and Halo 2 were more popular than FFVII.

I'd argue that since FFVII's release there has been a larger move towards front loading game sales through pre-order culture and hype blanketing. Older games tended to be 'evergreen', in which they would sell at a steady rate over a very long time instead of smashing records and dropping off the charts after 6 weeks. I'd even argue that FFVII itself signaled the transition to the blockbuster model for following games.

>>2789428
It makes plenty of sense.

Define the difference between "acting like a dumb sperg" and "liking video games, but not so much as to deserve being bullied."

>>2789432
What I meant was that it was a massive phenomenon. Everyone was talking about it, everyone seemed to be playing it. But that was just an example to point out that gaming wasn't rare then. Of course when Pokemon got big it was even more of a phenomenon.

>>2789437
That seems to be the impression people have of phone games who never play them. Most people never pay a dime for anything and some of the games have been entertaining even for me who's been gaming for decades. There are shitty examples, but by and large they're just games.

>>2789441
>The data you cited does not necessarily suggest that Grand Theft Auto 3 and Halo 2 were more popular than FFVII.

the data shows that FF fans are massive loud spergs

>>2789448
>Most people never pay a dime for anything
I don't mean in terms of extracting money, but in the style of gameplay. Some of the slot machines in the last 10 years are quite sophisticated compared to the older ones (particularly the non-electronic ones).

Many mobile games have simply brought the same addictive experience to people's homes via their mobiles. But obviously they've been tweaked to be more suspenseful as you don't stand to gain money by winning.

And I do have experience playing phone games: i've worked for one of the top 5 mobile gaming developers

>>2789441
I agree that as video games became big business front loading sales became the dominant market strategy.
But nevertheless, FF7'S lifetime sales, including greatest hits reissue and steam's 2015 release, total about 11,000,000.
Grand theft auto 3, which was (again) a sleeper hit, and therefore not a part of the front loading sales trend, out sold FF7'S life time sales in just a month. Ultimately selling almost 18,000,000 as of 2011.

>>2789448
FF7 was indeed a very massive phenomenon, within a limited demographic. Video games since then have manged to create massive phenomenons in society writ large.

>>2789460
I don't discount there's that aspect to them, Candy Crush in later levels gets pretty slot machiney, but for a good while it was an interesting panel de pon variant.

Games like Peggle though which I've been seeing a fair amount of recently (I ride a lot of trains) is I think a legitimately pretty great game despite it's simplicity. Regardless though, even if the people are playing things that are barely games when you get into the mechanics of it, they're still playing in droves. Certainly more so than people used to or that ever played slot machines regularly. That was really all I was saying.

>>2789468
>out sold FF7'S life time sales in just a month
Woah, hold on a second. Where are you getting your data for that assertion? I found that it took until September 2007 for it to sell 12 million. That's like 6 years, not a month.

>>2789468
>FF7 was indeed a very massive phenomenon, within a limited demographic.

That's precisely what I'm trying to describe to you. The demographic was nowhere near as limited as you seem to think it is. When I say it was a massive phenomenon at my college, I'm not just talking about geeks and nerds, all sort of people (even girls!) were playing it.

But also, though I agree that it wasn't marginalized in the 80's and 90's the way some people these days claim, it also wasn't something people of all ages did like they do now. I'm also this guy >>2789423

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>>2789353
Does this look like a geeky kid to you?
Dudebros were always the bigger part of the market, hell, the whole dudebro meme is just a /v/ thing that's born out of their typical ignorance and inferiority complex, who do you think bought Madden or all those NBA games back in the days? Tons of movies or tv shows had the cool kids playing videogames on their NES/SNES/Gennie too, maybe you should dig up those old VHS and rewatch stuff from back then.
Consoles were pretty much the mark of the dudebro back then with certain obvious exceptions, the real geeks or nerds used computers which were pretty much a separate world anyway.

>>2789471
You're right, I'm sorry. That tempers my argument but doesn't discount it. Consider that grand theft auto 5's lifetime sales are at 54,000,000.

>>2789474
We might be arguing over shades of grey at this point. I'm not trying to suggest only basement dwelling male caucasians played the game, I have anecdotal evidence of its wide appeal as well. I'm just suggesting from a larger societal and overall entertainment industrial perspective, FF7 was only a prelude of what video game phenomenons would later become.

>>2789484
What it looks like to me is: buy my product and you too can be a cool kid!

Were you not belittled by more "mature" kids during your teens for "still playing video games"? Or told to grow up by adults?

>>2789484
He looks like a child actor designed to impress children into thinking that if they buy this product they can be as cool as him.

>>2789495
>from a larger societal and overall entertainment industrial perspective, FF7 was only a prelude of what video game phenomenons would later become.

Okay, in that sense I agree with you then.

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>>2789497
>Were you not belittled by more "mature" kids during your teens for "still playing video games"?
Not really, no. If anything adults used to say those things, and it's not like the situation is any different now.
I was kind of picked on because I used to play stuff like Street Fighter instead of Tekken but I had no problems with playing videogames at school on my GB, except with teachers of course.
>>2789498
It really depends on the advertisement, some things are more geeky, other are more dudebro, others are more "adult".
Makes you really think about how much advertisement changed these days though, it's way less "personal" in a way.

>>2789495
>That tempers my argument but doesn't discount it
It doesn't discount it, because GTA3 was arguably to PS2 what FFVII was to PS1, but directly comparing the numbers is still a bit iffy.

GTA3 came out in a more globalized environment (consider that Hong Kong was still British when FFVII was released), the PC port wasn't garbage, and it was released on two consoles, not one. I think there's also little doubt that GTA3 just had bigger mainsteam appeal anyway. FFVII was still a damn JRPG where you play as anime characters saving the world. GTA3 let you be a criminal, every single teenager's dream come true.

>>2789508
I get it, advertisements are meant to appeal to a target audience. But it's still just marketing video games as a child's play toy, something a respectable, productive adult should be embarrassed for engaging in.

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>>2789534
>But it's still just marketing video games as a child's play toy
I don't know about that son, though I can say that there was a weird pattern change halfway through the nineties when effectively most adult subtext or imagery disappeared almost completely just to reemerge briefly in the early 00's.
It really depended on the target audience, though yes, generally the atmosphere was still mostly that of toy advertisement.

>>2789509
This is exactly my argument. FF7 was the largest single video game phenomenon at the time, but, as you illustrated, was still limited in its audience demographic, because video games as a whole were generally limited in its audience demographic.

Grand theft auto 1 had the same universally appealing concept of being a criminal but barely sold over 1,000,000 in its life time.

>>2789542
Same thing. Buy my product and have a common interest with hot girls.

>>2789543
>still limited in its audience demographic
If you're talking about the whole market then I disagree. That same demographic just got bigger thanks to globalization and greater moves towards multiplatform.

>Grand theft auto 1 had the same universally appealing concept of being a criminal but barely sold over 1,000,000 in its life time.
The mainstream appealing concept was there, but the graphics were not. 2D could not get less cool among the mainstream than it was during that period. GTA3 was a hit because it gave the mainstream everything they wanted in one package.

>>2789563
FF7 is a Japanese video game, to discuss FF7'S impact on american or western pop culture already precludes the suggestion that globalization was a force in video games to be taken for granted from the beginning.

GTA3 was indeed a hit because it gave the mainstream everything it wanted, but it also was fortunate enough to capitalize on video games bulk demographic reaching the age where beating hookers, and enjoying road rage catharsis was appreciable.

>>2789542
>there was a weird pattern change halfway through the nineties when effectively most adult subtext or imagery disappeared almost completely

That was a sad day for all of us.

Just consider the major video game hits of the third and fourth generations like Mario and sonic were whimsical fantasy cartoons. During the fifth generation FF7 was recounting adolescent coming of age tales. Then the sixth generation gave us GTA3, a rebellion against the adult world of following rules and fitting boring roles.

Video games grew up with those engaged in the medium, as gamers grew up, games reflected their view of the world around them.

>>2789596
That's some serious cherry picking. How does Mortal Kombat's incredible success fit into that theory of yours?

>>2789581
>precludes the suggestion that globalization was a force in video games to be taken for granted from the beginning.
Well, it sort of exploded around year 2000.

Consider for a moment that over a third of PS1's hardware sales occurred AFTER the release of the PS2 in early 2000 (PS1 hardware sales were only 66 million then). Most people don't know that little statistic. It just puts things into perspective.

>>2789602
Or DOOM?

>>2789596
>as gamers grew up
I love this lie, peddled by the game industry, and backed up by carefully cherry picked data.

The age of 'core' gamers has always been exactly the same. The biggest audience for GTA3 wasn't people over 17, but kids. And it's the same for Call of Duty Black Ops 3. And it was the same for Mortal Kombat.

Casual games have always been enjoyed by all demographics, so these statistics simply reflect the entirety of society. When the game industry releases statistics of gamers getting older, it's just reflecting society's aging population (a little inconvenient thing they don't want you to know about because it harms the PR spin)

>>2789618
While that guy is wrong and I somewhat agree with you, there has been a change. Many people in their 30's and 40's game heavily and regularly now, where as people of that age invested that much in games in the 80's and 90's were probably a smaller portion of gamers overall.

I would be curious to see actual statistics, but doubt they exist.

>>2789626
>Many people in their 30's and 40's game heavily and regularly now, where as people of that age invested that much in games in the 80's and 90's were probably a smaller portion of gamers overall.
I definitely don't disagree that nostalgia is playing some kind of factor that it could not before, but it does bring in question one thing. How many middle aged people actually act on their gaming nostalgia? And is it statistically significant?

I'm not sure.

>>2789632
Well I'm 41, most of my friends are a similar age. I don't game the crazy amount I did when I was a teenager and in my 20's, but it's still a regular hobby of mine and rarely a day goes by that I'm not playing something. When I met my partner 10 years ago or so, she had only really played bits of things when she was young but now games pretty regularly as well.

For at least me and my friends though, it's not a nostalgia thing. We've just always liked games and I like them from all eras.

>>2789602
Despite mortal kombat's over the top violence it was still just a cartoon of super heroes and villians. Consider MK2 sold 1.78 million copies on the Sega Genesis whereas Disney's Aladin sold 4 million.

>>2789613
I personally find doom an interesting example because it is kind of an extension the eighties and early nineties sub culture fascination with underground heavy metal. But I'd also say that pc gaming was slightly ahead of the curve on the bulk audience's maturity and age scale. This was a major contributing factor in the infamous pc/console culture rift. Pc gamers were following a legacy of development that started sooner as well as being predominantly western. Console culture started with the NES and was predominantly driven by japanese developers. This pc/console rift mostly disappeared in the seventh generation when two forces came together: a) the age of video game bulk demographic was old enough that the difference was relatively marginal, b) Microsoft's involvement in the console market blurred the lines.

>>2789618
It's true that the average age of 'core' games are children. The point is that the width of the bell curve has widened.

>>2789641
>Console culture started with the NES
Atari 2600. Look up how much it sold. It wasn't as much as the NES, but it was no joke.

>This pc/console rift mostly disappeared in the seventh generation when two forces came together: a) the age of video game bulk demographic was old enough that the difference was relatively marginal, b) Microsoft's involvement in the console market blurred the lines.
I think you're over-analyzing this. The only reason PC and console are so homogenized these days is because console games literally became dumbed down PC games instead of their own unique identity.

Take Goldeneye for instance. Rare didn't try to bring the twitch shooter to console as a dumbed down version of Quake. They did their own thing instead, turned it into a slower paced stealth game better suited for the less precise control system.

Compare the Call of Duty series after 4. What is it if not just a dumbed down version of what started in Medal of Honor Allied Assault ? (PC exclusive). And of course, because multiplatform consolidated developer is the only economically viable system these days, PC just gets sloppy seconds console ports of what were dumbed down PC games to begin with.

>>2789657
>The only reason PC and console are so homogenized these days is because console games literally became dumbed down PC games instead of their own unique identity.

Not him but I disagree fundamentally.

>>2789657
And the atari 2600 directly contributed to the 1983 video game crash, it's successor, which also happened to be japanese, effectively wiped the slate clean of any of atari's influence in console game's legacy.

>>2789657
Quake on console was dumbed down, and it's sales were miserable. Goldeneye played to the strengths of consoles and enjoyed considerable success for it. Pc and consoles were doing their own thing with different target audiences.

>>2789678
>And the atari 2600 directly contributed to the 1983 video game crash
...which was an exclusively American phenomenon by the way. And the 2600 wasn't dead immediately after 1983.

>effectively wiped the slate clean of any of atari's influence in console game's legacy.
Doesn't change the past. It's like saying the PS1 wiped the NES and SNES clean out of history because it significantly outsold the N64.

>Quake on console was dumbed down, and it's sales were miserable.
Yeah, but Quake 64 was never the main feature. Its sole and only purpose of existing was to provide a way for people to play Quake who still owned an obsolete 486 PC but had an N64.

>Pc and consoles were doing their own thing with different target audiences.
I guess there is one thing I didn't think of. The real reason why the PC audience was older is because they were extremely expensive at the time with a killer upgrade cycle, which necessitated a disposable income. Games would run horribly unless you had the latest hardware.

These days you can buy a PC that performs better than a console for not far off the same price.

>>2789706
>These days you can buy a PC that performs better than a console for not far off the same price.

This is what really did it I think. Console and PC games merging is partly because of gaming PCs becoming more economically feasible and making games exclusive to either one console or a PC economically unfeasible for game developers.

With the cost it takes to develop a game, unless they're a first party with financial backing from one of the big companies it's a very foolish decision not to make your game multiplatform.

>>2789706
Not really, the ps1 still has legacy in the ps4 and the NES still has legacy in the wii u. The atari sputtered out the jaguar and then disappeared.

>>2789470
>Games like Peggle though which I've been seeing a fair amount of recently (I ride a lot of trains) is I think a legitimately pretty great game
Please die

>>2789460
Off-Topic, but have you played King of Dragon Pass's mobile port? What do you think of it?

Personally I think most mobile ports of retro that aren't HOMM3 or FF have turned out pretty nice.

>>2789442
By not acting out in a way that makes you an easy target for bullying.

>>2789953
I'm sorry you got triggered by the mention of a game without a massive marketing campaign and 7-digit budget.