CRPGs and JRPGs NOT ARE THE SAME

As someone who played JRPGs my whole life, I want to expand my horizons a little and try some CRPGs.
What would you recommend? The smoother the transition, the better.

How do you define the genre's exactly?

Is Etrian Odyssey a JRPG or CRPG?

Is Morrowind a CRPG or a WRPG?

>>2782923

I guess for the most seamless transition you could try JRPGs with CRPG elements like SaGa Frontier, it features a free scenario system where you can travel the world talking to people and whatnot from the get-go. I personally didn't like it and found it a bit too free but I encourage you to try it and see how it feels to you.

If that's a little overwhelming for you then try Legend of Mana, that game is far more JRPG friendly and only has a few elements similar to CRPGs. You have complete control over your characters battle abilities, right down to equipment crafting (literally the most in-depth crafting system in a retro game, btw) and you get to pick what quests you take in almost any order, not to the degree of Frontier or most CRPGs but it should be enough to give you a sense of it all.

If you really want to dive right into a CRPG and see if you like it you could try Silver. I'll preface this by saying it's a fairly unique game as-is and it's not aged very well but it has a cool feature of being relatively linear and leveling you up automatically as the story progresses.

>>2782998
>CRPG
Computerised RPG. Literally any video game RPG, western or Japanese.

I feel like there are two different roots for western CRPGs.

One is the top down Ultima derived games, with focus on big overworlds to explore and lots of quests and story. This branched out into stuff like Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment, Fallout 1 and 2, etc.. in the 90's. As the genre ages, there's more of a focus on dialogue and choice, and less on game systems and dungeon crawling.

Then you have Wizardry derived games. Many of them are first person games, with an emphasis on character creation, deep systems for combat and skills, dungeon crawling and less of a focus on story or plot. Things like the Might and Magic series, Elder Scrolls, Eye of the Beholder, etc come from this type of game.

My advice is to figure out which one of the two seems more up your alley (are you in it for story or systems?) and dive in to one of the well-regarded classics of either type.

Also, my dichotomy is by no means absolute. There are plenty of games that mix elements of both crpg branches, but hopefully it shines a bit of light on the games.

>>2782923
i am the guy who made this thread !

the best to start is the first fallout (1997) , and one of the best videogames ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geLiEiAiQJA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybzRPk61oE

Then it is time to Planescape: Torment , the crpg with the BEST story EVER.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOUk-JBd4jI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3v8EkW5koI

then those two, you will be ready for the following games:

Wizardry 8 , combat based crpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3t_Qecnpac

and something retro, a classic dungeon-crawler , Telengard (1982) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDboJVB-Bc

at this point you'll be ready for the best of the genre :

Darklands , 1992 , good in all aspects :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70L7GHR1eUE

Ultima IV (1985) and Ultima V (1988), the all powerful game that defined the genre :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8f5rfBCbmM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUP0Bfp-TWc

(play Ultima IV in apple II, and Ultima V in Ms-Dos with a fanpatch which includes music)

AND FINALLY , THE DEFINITIVY FIRST PERSON CRPG

ULTIMA UNDERWORLD : THE STYGIAN ABYSS (1992) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpuTbxkaZ94

playing all these games seriously, I promise to be very good and will enjoy

after these games you're ready to play anything you want to continue, Ultimas 1-3 6-7 or Wizardrys 1-7 for example or any interest CRPG you find in a page like RPGCodex.

please, enjoy !

I would like someone to explain to me the differences between Crpgs and Jrpgs

>>2783303
The one you like is bad, and the one you don't is good.

I may not be the biggest authority on Japanese RPGs since I only played a few dozen but they have bigger differences inside them than differences to non-Japanese RPGs.
There are a lot of DQ clones but there are also games that do things completely differently.

crpgs are the inbred cousin of batch file mmos with the utmost in generic dialog, sentence structure, gameplay is typically an excuse, crpgs may well not at all exist.
Because traits and stats are fucking bullshit they tie all of that to ancient vague jujitsu so that you confuddle what is basically a linear top down fetchquest. With no real difficulty outside of poor programming or an artifical send off, you have the reason dragons quest would keep you playing the same level forever. Janky shit m8.

>>2782923
I'm not that big in either genre, but i loved the original Fallout, try it, it's short, interesting and fun.

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Ultima 3 NES

>>2783579
So, how does Ultima 3 works on NES? Like DQ? Btw, that looks beautiful.

>>2782796
Nice cherrypick you humongous faggot.

>>2783081
CRPG means computer rpg. As in, games on a computer, not a console.

>2015
>still using terms JRPGs and WRPGs
>not using proper terms console RPG and computer RPG
>still not admitting that CRPGs are better than CRPGs

>>2783684
There's JRPGs on computers and WRPGs on consoles.

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>>2783692

>>2782998
>>2783303
Etrian Odyssey is a Jrpg and Morrowind is a Crpg !

It is difficult to explain in simple words but try to do it.

1) in a Jrpg ALL GAMEPLAY is in the combat and nothing else, sometimes there gameplay in exploration but simply move through mazes, and is normal in levels here are things like minigames just looking for fun.

All this is be cause Jrpgs are Gamism RPGs

2) in a Crpg the gameplay is everywhere, no only in combat. They not intended to be simple, straightforward and accessible, thet intended to be complex.

In a CRPG for example, there are stats for interaction with the characters, like charisma and this affects your interaction with NPCs, if you have X charisma you can convince a character that join you only talk but if you have low charisma you can do it.

in a Jrpg all stats are only for combat

aslo in a CRPG creation/customization of your character is never a optional element, in all CRPGs you create a character or custom a characters stats this in Jrpgs is very rare.

the CRPGs have elements of survival as a permanent death for characters (and you should create a new game with other characters to continue the game), the characters can die by age or hunger, like seeking to be realistic. Sometimes you have to read a whole manual to learn how to play a CRPG, they aren't simple and direct.

this is because CRPG seek to be a simulation of an Adventure.

watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaBvv2LjDqY

after that video should be clear what is a CRPG.

Crpgs are Simulationism RPGs.

if you want to know more about Simulationism and Gamism read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory

Not confuse complexity with difficulty, that a Jrpg be difficult doesn't make a Crpg, Etrian Odyssey is a Jrpg.

CRPGs = create your own story.

JRPGs = follow an already created story, follow a script.

>>2783081
>>2783619
>>2783684
>>2783692
''c''rpg and ''j''rpg , they are only the names of his origin, as simple as that.

>>2783592
You still see enemies in the overworld, the overworld just isn't saved so you lose stuff like chests if you don't open them.
Practically it isn't too different from the other versions, you just see your party blink while walking around.
Ultima 4 or 7 on Nintendo consoles are a completely different matter. 5 as well but it wasn't developed in Japan.

>>2784032
If you sprout bullshit could you at least format it nicely?

jrpgs are for fucbois and wrpgs are for turbonerds

>>2784040
leave it simpler.

Jrpgs = Gamism RPGs = follow an already created story, follow a script.

Crpgs = Simulationism RPGs = create your own story.

''c''rpg and ''j''rpg , the names of his origin.

Wikipedia defines them as ''Compunter-Style RPG'' and ''Japanese-Style RPG / Console-Style RPG''

for example, Undertale is not a Japanese game and is a PC game , but is a Jrpg like Mother.

>>2784053
Do you understand what text formatting means?

>>2782923

seriously , play Fallout 1 , Planescape: Torment, Wizardy 8, Telegard, Darklands, Ultima IV, Ultima V and Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss

in that order , they are beautiful games.

>>2784032
How is Etrian Odyssey not a CRPG when it's a Wizardry clone?

>>2784542
It's a DS game and the DS is not a console or a computer but a handheld. Therefore it should be a HRPG like Wizardry Gaiden.

>>2784542
Etrian Odyssey is a hardly a Wizardry clone.

>no perma death
>automapping
>easy battles
>very predictable enemy encounters
>not much variety in enemy party composition
>can instantly travel back to town at any time with item that can be bought cheaply at the shop

Dark Spire is close, but without the permadeath, it's not a real Wizardry clone either.

>>2784557
What perma death in Wizardry? That fluke chance that a ashes character gets lost in the temple is hardly worth considering.
Does difficulty stop something from being a clone?

>>2784557
>Etrian Odyssey
>automapping
wat

>>2784542
How is Dragon Quest not a CRPG when it's an Ultima clone?

This is the worst thread I've ever seen on this board.

>>2782796
Just because a JRPG is linear doesn't make it a "JRPG".
JRPG stands for japanese role playing game, so as long as it is a RPG and made in japan it is a JRPG.

>>2784982

have you seen the shootem up general? I mean this one's bad and all but that one really takes the cake

>>2784987
This is true, but people now consider JRPGs to be:

>any RPG with a turn based battle system and linear progression, both in stats and plot

And WRPGs are considered:

>any RPG with an action based battle system that lets you make your own character/s and is generally open ended

The fact that there are WRPGs like the former and JRPGs like the latter means nothing to people these days. I've seen people call Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey and Demons Souls "WRPG"s, lol. People are fucking retarded.

>>2782796
Nobody likes CRPGs, that's why. They were a genre very largely ruled by the hardware limitations of the time, and are now mostly played by basement dwellers.

JRPGs have the distinction of having been actually popular for a prolonged period of time, and many surface dwellers still play them (the weird, awkward surface dwellers, but still...)

Also, I've never played a CRPG that was genuinely fun on any level, but have in fact played several JRPGs that are. I'm assuming that most of the rest of the gaming world feel similarly.

>>2784598
The map lights up in the squares where you walk. You're always aware of your direction and exact location on the map at anytime. You only need to go through the motions of tracing and adding objects on the map. This isn't manual mapping. It's tracing. It's almost like a playing with a child's stencil set. Drawing the map is completely pointless because you'll never get lost even if you don't make a map.

>>2783091
It's funny because Ultima Underworld is the key influence for a lot of games in the latter, not Wizardry. Arena was all but a direct UU clone with bad randomized dungeons and towns.

>>2784987
Is a Japanese remake of Wizardry with dual language (English/Japanse) a JRPG?

>>2785050
>The map lights up in the squares where you walk
That's optional.

itt: hurf durf

>>2784570
>That fluke chance that a ashes character gets lost in the temple is hardly worth considering.
Wish I played your version. Fucken DOS version gives me ashes exclusively. Next time I try Wizardry it's Apple all the way.

>>2784551
>DS is not a console
Portable/handheld is subset of game console.

>>2784557
>permadeath
Wizardry doesn't enforce this to the same extent as Rogue. You can backup your save game, as described in a 1982 or 1983 CGW article. You need four floppy disks in total (2 for the program/scenario, 2 for the save games).

>>2785032
Huh? Those games evolved over time. In the beginning it was pure text interface like Eamon style. Then you had stuff with primitive graphics like early Ultima and Wizardry style, including stuff like Wasteland. Then you got more elaborate graphics like later Might & Magic, Baldur's Gate, and other games people still play a lot these days.

> I'm assuming that most of the rest of the gaming world feel similarly.
You're living under a rock.

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>>2782796
Of course they're not. That's why the genres have different names. They're similar of course, and share the same roots but they're different genres, or subsets of the overall RPG genre. Just the same as we use ARPG and SRPG because they denote RPG sub genres, we use JRPG and W/CRPG for the same reason.

It's really not complicated, and outside of some people wanting to just stir shit up around here it's not an issue or problem for virtually anyone. Genre names are just there to give brief ideas of what a game is like.


>>2782998
Etrian Odyssey is a dungeon crawler, which is another genre related to RPGs.

CRPG and WRPG are essentially synonyms.

>>2782796
CRPGs/WRPGs tend towards the complex, dynamic sandbox PnP RP experiences, and realistic art, emphasizing character customization, branching dialogs, player choice, and world interaction.

JRPGs tend towards the simple, static themepark experiences driven by linear plots, and anime art, minimizing character customization, branching dialogs, player choice, and world interaction.

They're quite different experiences and there's no reason liking one should imply liking both. To me, CRPGs/WRPGs feel more mature and offer higher replayability, but can be much heavier. If I feel for something lighter a JRPG is a better choice.

>>2785819
It's important to note though that JRPGs and CRPGs both came from the same roots, as video game versions of PnP roleplaying games.

But over the years the two genres have split and become distinctive from each other. Both still RPGs, but subgenres.

>>2784038
I'd imagine it's a good way to get into Ultima.

Also for people here who aren't familiar, crpgs in general are a bit more involved and can be potentially more complicated than your standard jrpg fair.

>>2785827
>Also for people here who aren't familiar

People who are funposting for funposting's sake aside, is there really anyone who doesn't understand the difference between WRPGs and JRPGs?

>>2785839
May as well draw the line and make it clear in case some people aren't familiar, as RPG usually referred to JRPGs for the longest time where I'm from, at least for the people around me.

>>2785860
Well usually people just talking about them in general simply refer to them as RPGs. The same way most people when talking about computer RPGs. There's no real need to distinguish them in a lot of cases.

But someone would have to be either very young or just very new to the video games in general to actually get confused about any of this.

>>2785865
True. The only western styled rpgs I've been playing are the elder scrolls games[/spoilers]

>>2785903
Why would you spoiler that? Who cares if you play ES games?

>>2785827
3 is alright as a start to Ultima, the version you play doesn't matter that much since the only difference are graphics and a few extra input options here and there.
The main alternatives are 1 for being simple as fuck and 4 for being the start of the continuous setting
World of Ultima and Underworld 1 can be played independently of the rest but they don't really offer a side entry to the main series.

>>2785561
You get ashes if you try to revive with spells where the chances are like 50/50. It just isn't worth the risk.
There's no reason to play the IBM booter anyway.

>>2785839
WRPGs are made in North America for platforms available in North America and are typically in English , JRPGs are made in Japan for platforms available in Japan and typically in Japanese. There are exceptions and ports, collaborations and translations blur those lines. Practically there isn't a reason to distinguish them because they were always connected and each part covers a huge field with lot of overlap between both.

>>2785924
That is true, but the RPGs made by the Japanese and the ones made by western companies can be distinguished by more than just what country they were made in.

They came from the same roots, but have evolved in different directions over time and are now mostly separate enough to each have their own sub genre names.

There are of course exceptions and special cases. Dungeon crawlers are traditionally western, but there have been notable Japanese entries as well.

Really the names are just there to avoid confusion. What genre something falls under and whether it blurs the lines of what category you would put it in is ultimately pretty pointless.

>>2785959
>but have evolved in different directions over time and are now mostly separate enough to each have their own sub genre names.
That's just ignorance from people having only played a few, albeit possibly popular titles.

>>2782796
who /gameoldies/ here? I stumbled upon Shadowrun two days ago. Never heard of it, vaguely sounded familiar because of /tg/, but I could just make a mistake...played it and it was one of those times I regretted not having/not being able to make an account in gameoldies. I was fucking stoked.

>>2786045
There's three different Shadowrun games. One American for the Genesis, one Australian for the SNES and one Japanese for the Mega CD.

>>2786057
The Genesis one.
What happened to gameoldies? You can't make an account there it seems.

>>2786045
>>2786062
oh and I also wanted to add another obscure but awesome game I found was 7th gate (or 7th seal).

>>2786017
No it's not. I've played a vast number of Japanese and Western RPGs, the subgenres have gone in their own directions. From my perspective it's only someone who had played a handful would be under the impression they're not.

>>2786062
You're on 4chan, you can't make accounts here either.
Why would you even play a RPG in an online emulator?

>>2786074
why not? I 'm not good with computers and my computer is not good either.
If you made an account there you could online save games.

>>2786071
Then maybe you played a poor selection or you should see that both Japanese and NA RPGs have spread so far out that the differences between two Japanese RPGs or two NA games can be bigger than the difference between a Japanese and a NA one, which in various cases doesn't exist.

>>2786097
We're probably going to just have to disagree since I think the difference is distinct. Pier Solar is made by a western company, but clearly made in the style of a JRPG. No one familiar with the genres looks at it and mistakes it for a W/CRPG.

And besides, genre names really only exist to put things in broad categories so it's not like they really matter. If you can't see the distinctions between Japanese and Western RPGs then just ignore that part of a description. Pretty easy.

>>2786125
>No one familiar with the genres looks at it and mistakes it for a W/CRPG.
It's obvious if you look at the credits.
Tulio Adriano, Gwénaël Godde, Zable Fahr and Tiido Priimägi are obviously not English or Japanese games so it's neither a Western nor a Japanese RPG and irrelevant in the discussion of those two.

>>2786218
That you can't tell that it is very clearly made in the tradition of JRPGs as opposed to WRPGs is a clear sign you don't know what you're talking about.

>>2786218
Western only includes English people? Are you defining games by the ethnicity of the people who made them?

>>2786284
There is no JRPG tradition, it's just a designation of origin like Japanese cartoons are called anime without relevance to content whatsoever.
You can make a clone of a Japanese RPG or combine features from multiple Japanese RPGs but it doesn't become Japanese unless it's made in Japan. Likewise Japanese citizens can make copies of non-Japanese RPGs and they still get counted as Japanese RPGs.

>>2786297
The western hemisphere is mainly America and since Latin America doesn't have a lot of game industry this means Western games are all made in Canada or the US.
European RPGs are a completely different matter and shouldn't be mixed up with Western or Eastern games.

>>2786298
>There is no JRPG tradition
I disagree fundamentally. Pier Solar isn't technically a JRPG, but it is very clearly in the mold of a JRPG rather than a western one. JRPGs have different game design than WRPGS, which is why they have different sub genre names.

But again like I said, genre names really only exist to put things in broad categories, they don't really matter. If you don't recognize the design differences between CRPGs and JRPGs then you can ignore that the sub genres exist at all.

All it's really useful for is the guy who knows he wants another game like Dragon Quest, SMT or Final Fantasy and as opposed to one like Ultima, Wizardy or Morrowind. If you like both or don't care about the difference you don't have to concern yourself with the names at all.

>>2786305
Europe is not Western? Where did you get this definition from?

So you can deduce where the game was made based purely on the names of the developers? How do you know if they had emigrated or not to the US or Canada? The location of the company doesn't matter?

>>2786305
>European RPGs are a completely different matter and shouldn't be mixed up with Western or Eastern games.

Okay, you MUST be trolling now. "Western" means America, and European RPGS are clearly different from other RPGs, but there's no difference between JRPGs and WRGPS? Europe is the base for many Western RPGs.

If this isn't a troll I don't even know... are you 13 or something? What is going on?

>>2786305
>The western hemisphere is mainly America
This dude just went full retard.

>>2786305
You'll have to explain why European rpgs deserve a distinction on their own.

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>>2786316
Nobody gives a shit about Antarctica.

>>2785262
It would be more meaningful if they only allow the automap option to players when they start a new game instead of letting them turning it on/off whenever they what to. There should be a consequence of choice.

>>2786320
He has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. The rest of the world considers Europe part of the "west" and many W/CRPGs are from Europe.

>>2786307
How's Wizardry is more similar to Morrowind than to SMT?

>>2785775
>CRPG and WRPG are essentially synonyms.
>>2785819
>CRPGs/WRPGs tend towards the complex, dynamic sandbox PnP RP experiences,

Except all the WRPGs released in the last 10+ years are just shallow action adventure games with a spattering of RPG elements. I think that's why we still use the term CRPG, because both JRPGs and WRPGs have been so watered down in comparison.

>>2786324
When people talk about west vs east, they're not talking about where the hemisphere markers are. Europe and the Americas are "west" and Asia is "east". How do you not know this? Are you legitimately underage? This should be grade school stuff for most people.

>>2786307
>All it's really useful for is the guy who knows he wants another game like Dragon Quest, SMT or Final Fantasy and as opposed to one like Ultima, Wizardy or Morrowind. If
What kind of mongrel game is that? Ultima alone already covers so many different styles it's hard to make a game that's not like one Ultima in some way. Wizardry was also fundamental that it's hard to escape it's influence.

>>2786324
Man I love SRPGs.

You know, Southern RPGs. From the antarctic.

>>2786334
In that case Japan and Australia are part of the West so it makes no sense to apply that definition.
Commies didn't really make any RPGs. They barely made games at all.

>>2786320
European RPGs should really be split between German RPGs, French RPGs and British RPGs. Those have little in common with each other.
The difference to American or Japanese RPGs should be obvious to anybody with a functioning brain.

>>2786326
>There should be a consequence of choice.
wrong thread

>>2786345
I really shouldn't have to explain any of this to you. But given your confusion over RPGs I'm not surprised.

>>2786361
Have you considered that it's you who is confused? It's all relative.

>>2786329
Be cause all gameplay in SMT is in the combat, in spite of having alternative endings, can recruit demons talking with them or fused them.

SMT is like a ''Pokémon with more options and difficulty''.

in Wizardry you can create characters, you can die for hungry and have permanent death.

Wizardry is similar to Might and Magic , watch this video to understand the difference between SMT and a Crpg:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaBvv2LjDqY

plus , the combat in Wizardry is more Complex:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3t_Qecnpac

>>2782796
I only played a few JRPGs, Pokémon X, SMTIV, Pokémon Emerald, and a bit of Chrono Trigger. These one I really liked. But most of JRPGs (Final Fantasy, Etryan Odyssey, Dragon Quest, etc) are kind of boring.

Oh and the plot is always the same. "Oh our world is in danger go gather the seven heroes of the wind to get the mystical artifact and destroy the villain!"

>>2786461

and you've played a Crpg ?

I recommend you the first Fallout (1997) and Planescape: Torment (1999).

they are really very beautiful games, everyone should play them.

>>2782796
>Why people insist ?

Because even Final Fantasy started out as a D&D game, it was only later that they changed it into super linear games with pre-defined characters.

>>2786458
>you can die for hungry
There is no food in Wizardry.
The 8 numbered Wizardry titles have grown more complex over the time like other long running series but when people say Wizardry without a number then they usually mean Proving Grounds since that's the most important.
But when it comes to SMT then Wizardry 4 obviously comes to mind which has you play as Werdna and summon monsters to fight opposing heroes. There's also altenative endings unlike Wizardry 1-3+5.

Might and Magic 1 and 2 are already quite different from Wizardry. Later games are even further grown apart.

>>2786471
FF1 is linear but it doesn't have pre-defined characters.
Railroading is hardly unheard of in pen and paper D&D, Dragonlance came out back then, so it's not hard to see where it came from. Other games of the time like Bard's Tale also had a fixed order in which you had to take dungeons.

>>2786474
>you can die for hungry

sorry, It was confusing things from Might and Magic with Wizardry when i wrote that.

my mistake

>>2786461
Dragon Quest and Etrian Odyssey tend to lack plot and focus heavily on the gameplay.

It seems you prefer ones that have a plot to them. Check out SMT: Strange Journey and Bravely Default. Both have good storylines to them and you obviously have a 3DS.

>>2786487
in FF1 you select a character, that is different to create a chatacter.

plus, in a Crpg you can customize your characters stats and control their growth, in FF1 not.

and all stats in FF1 is for combat, in FF1 all gameplay is in the combat.

>>2786491
You don't starve in M&M, you just don't regenerate when you rest.

>>2786504
>plus, in a Crpg you can customize your characters stats and control their growth, in FF1 not.
That very much depends on the game. You may get to have some choice on the initial stats but the rest is completely random.

>and all stats in FF1 is for combat, in FF1 all gameplay is in the combat.
What RPG in the 80s has stats for things other than combat and disarming traps? Wasteland and that's about it.
Ultima is the only notable series with gameplay beyond combat of that time.

ITT we debate labels that will never be used for anything other than showing off how big our gaming lexicon dick is.

>>2785072
It depends if it is the same game or something completely different from the original.
If it's the same game, then then the credits goes for the original development team, and the japanese team gets a credit for a port development.

>>2784032
This is basically correct as a very general rule but people will split hairs endlessly just to bullshit and argue. Japanese games are more gamist, western games inherited some degree of simulationism from pen and paper games. It's not necessarily enough to put the games in different genres, but even if you narrow things down to western vs eastern dungeon crawlers and compare very similar games you can usually see the difference in attitude and design choices.

I've tried playing old WRPGs like various Wizardry and Ultima games. I just can't deal with the outdated as fuck UI.

I've been thinking of maybe trying Wizardry 8.

>>2786915
Which ones did you play and which version? The original Apple II versions were often bit clunky but you have newer ones that improve that.

Specifically for Ultima 4 you have xu4 for streamlined keyboard controls or the SMS port for menu based controls.
For Wizardry 1-5 you might try the PS1 ports and the SFC port for 6.

>>2785918
No, I mean at the Temple of Cant. Ashes then permadead every time.
Mo' like Temple of Can't.

>>2783303
>>2782998
The genre defining JRPG was Dragon Quest. Yuji Horii, it's creator, saw computer games like Wizardry and Ultima on a trip to America and wanted to recreate that for a Japanese audience. Unlike the PC market which was an older & hardcore audience, the console market was younger and casual, more in roots with the Arcades than computers. So DQ was simplified to give a simple Wizardry/Ultima like experience on a console. Horii removed all the complicated parts of the game and put in DQ what he considered was the fundamental parts of those games. What he did not realize was that Wizardry/Ultima were trying to simulate actual tabletop RPGs but because there was no tech to do so they were simplistic compared to real RPG. This misunderstanding by Horii was crucial in the development of the JRPG genre. Because DQ was so popular in Japan and tRPGs were unheard of by most people there, for many RPG meant DQ like. JRPG all developed from trying to add to the DQ formula instead of simulating tRPG.

tl;dr

JRPG - DQ Clones

WRPG - tRPG sims

>>2786375
Good lord m8 you stubborn ignorant fools are the worse.

When people talk a bout the "west" they are taking about europe or countries with european roots. The "east" are asian countries east of europe.

>>2787431
>trying to simulate actual tabletop RPGs but because there was no tech to do so they were simplistic compared to real RPG.
That's wrong. Dungeon crawling on a computer gets far more involved and complex than it could be on a gaming table.

>>2787447
Modern Japanese culture has strong European roots while any Asian influences died a millennium ago.

>>2787452
Man you really know nothing do you?

On the surface Japan might seem westernised but the collective culture of Japan is East-Asian as fuck. But that's beside the point you idiot.

When people, as in other people in this board, people in the real world talk about the east, they mean Japan, China, Korea, etc. When they talk about the west they talk about America, Australia, UK, France, etc.

You can continue spouting BS saying how "western" Japan is, which is not true btw, or the like. But you won't change the definition of terms use by the people that work in the industry or in other endeavours. So please, shut the fuck up.

>>2787459
I've always used is as West = USA and allies, East = USSR, PRC and allies and I think that's still prevalent despite the end of the cold war.

>>2782796
>triggerniggers

Western RPG = Outlaws, frontier, natives etc
e.g. Fallout, Wild Arms

Eastern RPG = Martial Arts, Wuxia etc
e.g. Jade Empire, Suikoden

>>2784032
>>2784557
I don't know that much about the terminology of a CRPG, but Etrian Odyssey is definitely not a JRPG. It's a dungeon crawler, since it's about exploration rather than characters and plot. You've got your party building, mapping, dungeon events, decision making, etc. You don't have to map completely manually, but that's more for convenience and appeal than anything else - And you can turn auto-map off if you like, so your point there is moot.

Permadeath is more a staple of Roguelikes, though, I doubt it's a staple of CRPGs.

>>2787431
Final Fantasy was well into development when Dragon Quest came out, and Final Fantasy is almost exactly D&D in video game form.

The real birth of the JRPG came with Final Fantasy IV though. It was moving the emphasis away from party building and leveling strategy, onto a simple game focused on story and pre-made characters. Then that game becoming wildly popular and the whole Japanese RPG movement followed. That's when JRPGs veered into their own sub genre.

>>2787754
Why not Phantasy Star 1?

>>2787769
I honestly wish Phantasy Star had caught on more, but it didn't and that's what's really important.

It was FF IV pretty much throwing all party planning and leveling strategy of the prior three games out in favor of streamlined gameplay and a character and story focus, followed by it's massive success that did it. FFV went back to a more mechanical game, was nowhere near as popular and that was pretty well that.

From that time forward, companies in Japan wanting to make an RPG that would appeal to the Japanese audience took heavy cues from Final Fantasy IV and ended up giving those games a distinct feel separate from their western counterparts.

>>2786487
>Dragonlance
It depends on the DM's style. Some will run everything by the book, while others try to integrate modules into their own personal campaign setting in a more logical fashion than the thin excuses for plot adherence in those modules. And then, there's the DMs who run a pure sandbox game. You can actually do that with DL material, if you're old school enough, and not easily intimidated or swayed by some words written in a module, but rather consider everything to be loose guidelines and inspirational material to plunder for your campaign. That's the main difference between a CRPG and the real thing: the DM can adapt everything as needed, whereas a computer game is always bound by predefined rules and scenarios.
I think the main problem is that there was a shift in attitude for module design at TSR sometime in the 80's. The older modules are fairly small and compact, and don't have a lot of fluff but still provide a solid base for the DM to expand upon, by spurring his imagination. Later modules are verbose and heavy, and don't feel as adaptable to a large array of different campaigns without heavy modification, because so much specific details are given. It's the same way with all the later campaign settings that came out, when compared to the slim early Greyhawk books. Those didn't have many pages, but the writing was compact and really made you want to flesh it out yourself. Later campaigns were basically just excuses to sell you lots of books...

>>2787942
I always tried to run a linear game and my players ended up taking it off rails. I ran one game where 3 of the 5 players had never roleplayed anything and was supposed to be just a short little dungeon crawl to teach them the basics. I should have seen it coming with a party of all gnomes, but it almost instantly went completely off course in a hilarious manner and ended up being one of the best long running campaigns I did.

That's the fun of pnp roleplaying though. I never used a lot of modules though, always loved designing my own dungeons. I did take bits from Dungeon magazine campaigns and weave bits in that were good.

>>2787942
If you're not playing by the book why even get the book?
Old modules weren't supposed to have fluff. If there's an orc in a 10x10 room guarding a chest then that's all there is to it. He has no deep motivation or a family, he's just there to provide some challenge and loot.

>>2782796
>my favorite game is Ultima IV
Pardon me sounding like a cunt, but how? I'm genuinely interested about what do you like so much about it. It's revolutionary, but when I've played it I felt like everything potentially interesting about its concept is rendered into a massive grindy slog.

>>2788056
Not him, (>>2787950 here) but I found them useful for certain bits. Interesting dungeon sections I could use in my campaign or story hooks and little details.

The game is a lot more fun overall when that orc in the 10x10 room isn't simply an obstacle to get at the loot. It's when he does have some back story, like a wife that's going to be pissed as hell if he got his ass whooped by adventurers and they made off with her favorite +3 Skillet of Bashing.

D&D gets pretty boring fast when it's just fights and loot collecting. At least for me it always did. That's partially why I only used modules as a backdrop at most. It's the actual roleplaying and creating crazy stories that makes it such a great game.

>>2786461
Crpgs all have the same "search for the macguffin" premise too.

Fuck my asshole, we just went through this shit.

Video game genres suck dick, are completely unintuitive, and are bad at telling you anything useful, as you can have two fundamentally different games belong to the same genre.

The distinction between JRPG and WRPG are meaningless, and each definition for them is stupid, as there are plenty of examples that do not fit the mold.

There are tons of categories you can make for RPGs, why people think you can just boil it down to two distinct genres is beyond me.

This debate is meaningless, it never goes anywhere, as every single fucking person has their own different definition of what they consider "WRPGs" and "JRPGs", and it's often heavily influenced by whatever types of games they play first.

>>2788191
>The distinction between JRPG and WRPG are meaningless, and each definition for them is stupid, as there are plenty of examples that do not fit the mold.

While this is true, and I generally agree with you, the terms JRPG and W/CRPG came about for a reason, they often have different fanbases and most people into either or both can tell the difference.

But what genre something falls under and what name the genre has are really ultimately pretty pointless and only really useful for organizing things into broad categories.

More to the point though, virtually everything discussed here is largely pointless. I would put a discussion about genre definitions on about the same level as a discussion about which Castlevania is best, and that's the bread and butter of /vr/

>>2788249
At least with that kind of discussion, you can argue about the merits of each game. There's some basis with which to form your argument.

There is not authority on video game genres, and no agreed upon definition. The only argument is "my interpretation of an arbitrary and flawed label is the right one"

>>2788253
The way I see it, discussing the games is even more pointless because it really all just comes down to personal preferences. No consensus can ever be made as to whether Rondo, Bloodlines. CVIV or DX are the best 16 bit CV. It's all just opinions.

At least in this there is some sort of consensus to come to, heck it's already been made. Despite people quibbling over specifics and exceptions, virtually anyone who plays RPGs can tell the difference between the sub genres.

But fundamentally, all of this is just a waste of time. Speaking of which I'm done work so it's time to stop wasting. See you all tomorrow, /vr/!

>>2786461
Final Fantasy X is fairly innovative takedown of the "World in peril, please follow these steps to save it!" cliche. The third act of the game is basically "YOU'VE DOOMED US ALL YOU IDIOTS! WHY COULDN'T YOU FOLLOW DIRECTIONS?!"

>>2788129
The game becomes more fun when the orc provides a proper challenge instead of resources being diverted to pointless shit.
The stories come from the rolling of dice and not lame talk.

>>2788284
I think we have very, very different approaches to pnp roleplaying. I totally agree that the orc is more fun and interesting when he's a challenge. But it's the story that the game builds and tells that really made roleplaying shine. And I don't know what you're talking about when you say "resources being diverted to pointless shit." What resources? Campaign planning?If you're not into the roleplaying aspect, might as well just play a tabletop war game or something. Roleplaying games are called role playing for a reason.

>>2782796
Quality thread OP
/sarcasm

>>2788294
>might as well just play a tabletop war game or something. Roleplaying games are called role playing for a reason.
That's what RPGs are: a wargame where you take the role of a single character or a small band of them.
If they were about storytelling they'd be called storytelling games.

>>2787769
>>2787796
So what do you define Phantasy Star 1 as in this narrative of DQ adapting Ultima and FF adapting DnD?

good rant op

>>2788056
>If there's an orc in a 10x10 room guarding a chest then that's all there is to it.
You can play it that way, if you want.
But you also have the option to add some reasons for his existence in that room. It can be as simple as "it's his room and his stuff" or more involved like he lost at poker yesterday and has to pull guard duty while all the other orcs are out having fun (or whatever).
In any case, a little imagination and some random tables goes a long ways to fleshing things out.
From my experience as DM though, overthinking or overdetailing stuff is a waste of time, as the players often just want to kick ass and grab treasures, and too many details just confuses them anyway. Then again, that applies more to dungeon crawl style campaign. Maybe if you're doing a mystery game or something else it's different...

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>>2788264
Simon's Quest is the best, because it was my first CV game, and very close to Zelda 2 (my very first NES game, outside of Mario).
I did also like the original game of both series though (but didn't play many post NES ones).

So I'm arguing based on nostalgia. What are you gonna do, kick me in the jimmy? I can take it!

>>2788356
Then again, that applies more to dungeon crawl style campaign.

Yeah, it depends a lot on the group of players. I've always preferred games where combat is scary and not something the players want to engage in lightly and if they can find a creative non-combat solution I like to reward it in some way. D&D is a pretty combat centric game though and one of the reasons it's one of the lesser played ones in our group.

Not that combat isn't fun, but I find the game boring when it's all combat and dice rolls. I have run into people like this >>2788306 before, but at least when I was more into the gaming scene in general people like him were referred to as munchkins, which was not a compliment. It's been years since I was involved in the gaming scene at large though. People come and go sometimes, but it's been pretty well the same group for quite a long time now. It could be D&D4E brought in a bunch of people who basically play it like Warhammer with dungeons and don't care about the roleplaying aspect.

>>2782796
>Wrpg and Jrpgs , they are different genres.
this

seeing there are 140 replies, I'm afraid to scroll down to see the shitstorm

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>expects full retard flame war
>completely civil discussion
Guess I forgot the "r" in /vr/

The problem I have with CRPGs is how easy it seems to fuck up early in the beginning with poor planning. If you don't pick one option, race, class, advantage, item or whatever is available at the beggining then you are going to have a hard time for the rest of the game.
The reason why I prefer JRPGs is different though, it's usually the story and solid game play that can be enjoyed without much complication (straightforward characters that give you an array of options during combat that you are expected to plan an strategy with)

My favorite CRPG is Daggerfall and my favorite JRPG is Final Fantay VI. Although I'm not sure if Seiken Dentetsu 3 could qualify, but it would be my favorite

Could Jagged Alliance 2 be considered an RPG or is it just a tactical strategy game

>>2789356
>The problem I have with CRPGs is how easy it seems to fuck up early in the beginning with poor planning. If you don't pick one option, race, class, advantage, item or whatever is available at the beggining then you are going to have a hard time for the rest of the game.

I like both genres when done well, but for me and I think many other CRPG fans that is the fun. Those games are a lot more about the strategy of how you build your character/party. It can be fun to start as something sub optimal with a weird ass build and see how far you can get.

>>2789331
>It could be D&D4E brought in a bunch of people who basically play it like Warhammer with dungeons and don't care about the roleplaying aspect.
That's how D&D originally was before storyfags invaded.
You'd think there are more old school players on /vr/.

>>2789358
It's a strategic roleplaying game. You don't just have turn based tactical combat, you have a strategic perspective to things while still controlling only a handful of unique characters.

>>2789374
I see, well everyone has their own preferences, but it's kinda frustrating to see that the roleplaying elements that you are being sold have to be downplayed heavily for the sake of a more effective gameplay. I remember when I played morrowind for the first time and I created the character I wanted to be only to realize that it was very useless, which killed most of the fun. CRPGs require previous knowledge of them to be enjoyed without hindrances (reading manuals, planning your character, experimenting) whereas JRPGs give you the best you can have right out of the bat

Of course, I understand that people like precisely that about CRPGs, and that's fine, it's simply my opinion and tastes

>>2789378
I've been playing D&D since the 80's and have known many old gamers over the years. Either you don't know what you're talking about or are from some weird pocket somewhere. Roleplaying has always been a heavy influence.

>>2789386
I think there's a modern mentality that you should be able to sit down at a game and be good at it in your first run. A lot of the fun of older games and RPGs was that trial and error of figuring out the game and probably either dying or restarting a few times as you learn the ropes and get better. I do get how that's not for everyone though.

Also I got into video game RPGs from tabletop roleplaying and Rogue and later it's offshoots, so my perspective is also kind of warped.

>>2789390
Then maybe you should shut up when talking about 70s D&D. Roleplaying was just another form of asymmetric wargaming.

>>2789403
Gary Gygax himself described roleplaying games as "live theatre". You legitimately have no idea what you're talking about. D&D has always been more than just a wargame, it's a wargame used to tell a story and role play.

I don't know where you're getting this from, but it's ridiculous.

>>2789395
I do not feel like tabletop roleplaying suffers from it since if the GM is good then you are guaranteed not to be useless

Also, JRPGs aren't a "being good with your first run" but "you don't need to rely on trial and error". I see them as "If you don't pass through this part it is because you are doing something wrong with what you have" instead of "If you don't pass through this part it is because you don't have what's necessary, start again"

>>2789450
Yup, I agree with all that. And for the record I also like JRPGs, but they are a different sort of experience.

>>2789457
indeed, for the record I also like CRPGs, but for different reasons than why I like JRPGs

Thanks for the discussion, it's been nice talking to you and sharing opinions

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>>2789459
Nice chilling with you.

>>2789413
And what about Dave Arneson? Gygax is the one who hogged all the glory and mobbed Arneson out of his creation.
Why not just call it acting?
All wargames have a story but they didn't need a hundred novel as your character background and nobody tried to stop fighting in the pretense of peace negotiations because he felt it was more realistic.

>>2789494
Then just stick to wargames and not roleplaying games. The point of roleplaying games is to roleplay, they're an offshoot of wargames. If all you want is that, there are games for it. But trying to imply D&D and it's successors are not roleplaying games designed for roleplaying is laughable.

>>2789504
I have a problem with the use of the word roleplaying for story telling faggotry.
The point of roleplaying is to have fun, not write a collaborative epic. Maybe you have fun that way but others don't so don't force your shit onto everyone. Better yet, stick to games like Vampire.

>>2789374
For me, I like that sort of thing, but I feel like most older CRPGs can be pretty unforgiving.

Personally, I feel like if success is mostly judged by how well you build your characters/party, then you should have options to respec. That way you can keep the game difficult and it still be fair. If you try to make it so the most un-optimal build can win, then you end up making the game easy.

I feel like in a lot of CRPGs, most people are afraid of screwing up a character, or making the game unwinnable, so they look up what they should do, and that kinda takes the fun of experimentation out of it.

I also don't think just your characters build should be the deciding factor of whether you win or lose, and I feel that's a failing that can apply to quite a few RPGs. Tactics should matter more in the long run.

>>2789512
>I have a problem with the use of the word roleplaying for story telling faggotry.

That's your problem not mine. I'm not forcing anything down your throat, I'm just explaining that roleplaying games aren't just wargames.

If you hate roleplayers, that's nice. But I don't care. I think it's safe to say we're both glad we've never gamed together. I certainly wouldn't let someone like you in my group.

Also, seriously where are you getting this from? I find it very hard to believe you're in your 40's or 50's and still throwing childish bullshit phrases like "story telling faggotry" around. Someone giving me shit for not having played D&D in the 70's and then acting like a teenager is pretty damn strange.

>>2789532
> I think it's safe to say we're both glad we've never gamed together.
Maybe at a convention. There are always those guys that need to force their false ideals and ridiculously long backstories on everyone. That made me stop going there and is the reason why I'm mad about that crap.

>>2789540
So in other words, such a vast number of roleplayers disagree with you on what the format of the hobby is that you had to stop going to conventions because it made you too mad. You just gave me my first real laugh of the day, thanks anon. You're a certified dip shit who should have just stuck to wargames and never cracked open a DMG.

>>2789540
And just to be clear. You're not a terrible person because you prefer D&D as a non-roleplaying experience where you just use the rules to run a table top dungeon crawling war game.

You're a terrible person because you can't stand the idea of other people not playing it that. To the point that you can't even go to conventions because seeing people who like the narrative side of roleplaying exist and enjoy the game like that. That's really pathetic.

>>2789358
I remember wanting to get that game since I was 12 but never got around doing it. Never played it either.

so why can't you make an account in gameoldies anymore?

>>2789579
What do you suppose to do? Waste time and money on something you don't enjoy?
What do you do when you encounter a group of hard core dungeon crawlers that refuses to convert to your wishes?
I've had people like that storm out of the door.

With computer game it was never impossible to combine story based adventures and stat based RPGs as can be seen in Quest for Glory or Ultima but they still went separate ways for most part.

>>2789793
I would never join a group of hard core dungeon crawlers. It's not like they're hard to avoid, certainly in my experience far less common than roleplayers. And a brief conversation about what kinds of games they run would be enough to let me know what kind of a game they run.

In the bizarre situation where I did join a group without bothering to ask and they were running a straight combat dungeon crawl, I sure would leave as well. Wouldn't storm out of course, but wouldn't waste my time either.

>>2788281
Eh, not really. The "this justice is wrong, we will come up with better justice" is quite the cliche in Japan. Coming up with a better way to save the world perfectly fits that cliche.

>>2782998
CRPG is a term for western rpg, so there's no such thing as "wrpg" in this qualification. Stop being obtuse.
And the genres would be defined as: crpgs are open world sandbox games, where player is meant to go into various location to fulfill quests, where majority of quests have nothing to do with the main plot. You usually get to heavily customize your character by being able to create the character and then having involved RPG system to further customize their stats, skills and equipment. Games are often partially nonlinear, with multiple availible solutions to quests, and plenty of moral choices, or abiltiy to choose between different factions, to make. Combat is usually strongly skill based, it's either action based or tactical. Their main purpose is to let player do what they want in this world and express themselves.

Contrast this with jrpgs, where main purpose is to tell a story and let player relax and tune out. Your main character is usually premade, as they are simply another character in the story. Freedom of exploration is usually pretty limited and world opens up as the game goes on, unlocking access to new areas over the course of the plot. Similarly, sidequests are few and far in between. Both progression and combat system are made intentionally easy, to not get in the way of the story too much. Player usually doesn't have much input in where the story goes, as it allows developers to tell a more finely crafted and focused narrative.

Also, I'd say there's also third kind, dungeon crawlers, which are focused on combat, with story not being particularly important. They are usually very linear with not having too much sidequests, and most of their involvement comes from complex game mechanics. From dungeon crawlers are derived sim rpgs/tactical rpgs.

The reason why we think of these as "RPGs" is because all of them were created in the 80s as attempt at turning tabletop rpg formula into a videogame, just in different ways.

>>2790968
>crpgs are open world sandbox games, where player is meant to go into various location to fulfill quests, where majority of quests have nothing to do with the main plot. You usually get to heavily customize your character by being able to create the character and then having involved RPG system to further customize their stats, skills and equipment. Games are often partially nonlinear, with multiple availible solutions to quests, and plenty of moral choices, or abiltiy to choose between different factions, to make. Combat is usually strongly skill based, it's either action based or tactical. Their main purpose is to let player do what they want in this world and express themselves.
Can you name five retro games that fall under those criteria?

Planescape Torment
Baldurs Gate
Baldurs Gate 2
Neverwinter Nights
Daggerfall
Fallout 2

>>2790986
1999
1998
2000
2002
1996
1998

>>2790975
???
Shadowrun on Genesis, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Fallout, Fallout 2, TES Arena, Planescape Torment, TES Daggerfall... All of them are open world, let you create your character, focus on sidequests, and many of them let you make moral choices. I guess Planescape Torment is the most story oriented among these.

What the fuck were you exactly trying to prove with that post?

>>2790989
Even early Wizardry and Ultimas had character creation and open world, and first morality system was added in Ultima IV, that's 1985. Western RPGs have emerged from mix of interactive fiction like Zork and dungeon crawlers like Akalabeth, so no surprise it took them a couple years for the genre to fully form.
And I won't even mention Wasteland.

>>2790995
How is Wizardry open world before 7? You can't even walk through the town.
Character creation in Ultima was cut down over the years. The virtue system from 4 wasn't implemented in any of the sequels.
It's not like you can't find character creation or open world in Japanese games, even popular ones like Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy.

>>2790995
>early Wizardry
>open world
If by open world you mean a dungeon, sure.

>>2790968
>Both progression and combat system are made intentionally easy
Not in comparison with majority of CRPGs which have really limited combat systems and piss easy progression with save anytime you want feature.

>>2791036
In Wizardry 1 you can access nearly every floor quickly via the two elevators so it's a fairly open dungeon. You also don't really need anything from most floors.

>>2791045
>majority of CRPGs
It's kind of silly to talk about a majority of something that poorly defined. With console RPGs you have a clear number of licensed titles but for real computers there are no holds barred so anyone can release a game in whatever state he wants.
The majority may as well be horrible broken Rogue-like forks.

>>2790968
CRPG and WRPG have been used interchangeably for a long time. Don't spaz out over that. We all know what it means.

>>2790975
Might & Magic 1-5 (maybe later ones too, but I don't play them).
I guess the morality angle isn't strong like in Ultima 4, but all the other stuff applies.

>>2790968
>Also, I'd say there's also third kind, dungeon crawlers

All that writing and then saying you "think" there might be another genre called dungeon crawlers makes it pretty clear how little you really know what you're talking about. That's a long established genre name. I don't mean offense by this, but you must be fairly young to be that unaware.

>>2791401
>involved RPG system to further customize stats
>multiple solutions to quests
>ability to chose between different factions
>combat strongly skill based
>action based or tactical
>let player do what they want in this world and express themselves.
How does any of that apply to M&M?
The skill system in 2 where you pick two extra skills to improve your stats is as far as the game system gets. 6 onward offer a lot more in that regard.
3 give you the minor choice which of the kings to give your orbs to but it has no practical difference.

>>2791345
That's fairly open?

>>2794541
Compared to 2-6 it is.
But the open world approach of "If you can't progress in one direction, try another" doesn't work very well since there are few fixed encounters and enemies get tougher the deeper you go.