ARENA TRAP SUSPECT

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sm-ou-suspect-process-round-5-i-cant-escape-myself.3613890/
link for the lazy

If it's broken, why did Gamefreak put it in the game?
Checkmate Smogonshills

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>>33449218

>>33449230
ah yes, mega rayquaza, what a balanced pokemon

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lol

>>33449218

b-b-but Smogon loves stall! /vp/ told me so!

>>33449276
Smug Bonnie BTFO

>>33449230
If it's broken, why did was it fine in Gen 3, 4, 5, and 6?

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>>33449286
>trusting /vp/'s word for anything
Don't do that

>>33449301
Z-moves and attack buff means Duggy can actually reliably kill stuff now.

>>33449301
The metagames were different. And Dugtrio didn't have 100 base attack until 10 months ago.

>>33449301
Because the mon primarily using it got buffed.
Try to keep up, ok?

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>inb4 magnet pull b&

>>33449218
I can't wait to see stallfags complete lose it because they'll be forced to use Weavile/Tyranitar as a trapper if they wanna keep their precious archetype alive.

>>33449345
Magnet Pull is way too situational to ever be banned

>>33449331
MGengar is still banned.

>>33449362

Because it's still as broken as it ever was

Why did they ban shadow tag but not arena trap? It's the same ability pretty much.

>>33449218
Fucking finally.

>>33449382
Because it's abusers weren't as good.

>>33449218
They shouldn't have banned shadow tag desu, only Gothitelle. Free my nigga Wobbuffet

>>33449311
>>33449319
>>33449331
All these reasons only talk about a single pokemon.
The problem isn't Arena Trap, it's Dugtrio. Just have it moved to uberes. It's the same situation as Blaziken and Speed Boost.

>>33449374
lmao

>>33449407
Read the fucking post.

>>33449382
Because the pokes that got that abilities could abuse it for maximum lulz. You can even use a Shadow Tag Charm/CM Gothithelle to stall out things like fuckin' Arceus.

>>33449407

Dugtrio was already suspected you nignog

And no, Arena Trap is broken in and of itself.

>>33449407
The problem is >playing singles in 2017

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>ban baton pass
>arena trap is now a problem

>>33449218

I agree that Arena Trap fucking sucks this Gen but does it not feel a little bit like "cheating" to suspect Dugtrio's only viable ability separately after Dugtrio itself was voted okay only a couple of months ago?

Like, they didn't get the result they wanted, so they're rephrasing the question and asking again and pretending its a brand new test even though really this doesn't effect any Pokemon except Dugtrio, making it effectively just another Dugtrio test.

It's shady as fuck, along with those laughable "rules" ie. "no arguments we don't like" and "nothing that we subjectively deem uninformed, that's entirely up to our discretion though lol"

Can any other mon abuse arena trap like dugtrio can?

>>33449416
>>33449419
>>33449420
About time too, I've been demanding Trapinch get moved to Ubers for years.

>>33449433

Arena Trap was a problem long before the Baton Pass ban, shitposter-kun.

>>33449435
Dugtrio is considered even better than it was a few months ago since people realized you can use it on things other than stall.

>>33449443
>>33449446
Diglett stall unironically became a thing during the first suspect.

>>33449407
They tried testing Duggy alone.
People made voting reqs with Diglett stall.

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>someone outskilled me in a childrens video game
>time to ban that thing they were using rather than learning from my mistakes
Smogon will defend this

>>33449420
>Dugtrio was already suspected you nignog
So? At this point a Dugtrio test is the same as a Arena Trap test since they Dugtrio is the only user in the OU and it will always have it.

>And no, Arena Trap is broken in and of itself.
Yet again, I ask if that's the case why was it fine for the last 4 generations and not now? So far every single answer has been Dugtrio.

>>33449382
Arena Trap does not work on everything. I believe its flying and levitate pokemon that do not fall victim to it but do not quote me. Basically Arena Trap is good but a worse Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag is 100% absolute.

>>33449493
Shadow tag doesn't work on ghost types.

>it's another 'let's do a suspect test on something random so we don't have to ban magearna/lando' episode

>>33449447
A bigger one to. The Baton Pass ban is fucking retarded. That and the way they did that bullshit of not actually banning the move but banning it in a certain way, passing on more than one stat, then just doing the slightly more sensible thing of outright banning he move entirely was stupid. I get that Deutsch Koffing has good intentions but fuck that shit.

>>33449499
That I have never heard of but nice reminder. Gen 6 and somehow I missed that change.

>>33449459

My point is calling this an "Arena Trap test" when it is obviously a Dugtrio test is slimy as fuck. If Dugtrio needs to be reconsidered, then make an argument for Dugtrio being reconsidered.

>>33449218
Why do all of these Smogon threads have a fucking music video in them? Jesus Christ, it triggers my autism.

>>33449588
Dugtrio has two other Abilities to work with, just like Gothitelle with Shadow Tag.

Dugtrio in itself is a mediocre mon; the only reason why it's viable is because it has Arena Trap.

Trapping is an inherent problem with Smogon's 6-on-6 format. It's not a big problem in VGC.

>Speed Boost makes Blaziken broken.
>ban Blaziken

>Arena Trap makes Dugtrio broken
>suspect test Arena Trap

kek

>>33449645

Arena Trap is inherently broken, Speed Boost is not.

>>33449629
>Dugtrio has two other Abilities to work with, just like Gothitelle with Shadow Tag.

Blaziken has another ability to work with, but Blaziken was banned, not its ability.

>Dugtrio in itself is a mediocre mon; the only reason why it's viable is because it has Arena Trap.

Blaze Blaziken is mediocre too.

This is intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

>>33449645
Speed Boost isn't as big of a problem as Arena Trap is. You don't see Scolipede, Yanmega, or Sharpedo get banned for having Speed Boost.

Stat boosts in Smogon reset after switching out (which is common in the 6-on-6 metagame). And there are always Pokemon that can outspeed Speed Boost mons at +1. Many of the Speed Boost Pokemon are very frail either physically or specially, or have numerous weaknesses that set them back.

Blaziken has all of the qualities that make it a really good Pokemon except for Speed, and then Game Freak gave it Speed Boost. So that's pretty broken.

>>33449654
>Arena Trap is inherently broken, Speed Boost is not.

Arena Trap has been in the game unchanged since Gen 3 and has never once been Suspected. Are you claiming that nobody noticed it was irredeemably broken for 5 whole Generations?

Reminders:
>The +20 atk buff for duggy only allows him to 2hko 2 new things, Keldeo and Azumarill. It essentially did nothing

>Stall will be alive and well even if duggy gets banned, different trappers like Weavile and Tyranitar will be used and they will remove your breakers just as well, as long as Chansey and Blissey don't get banned stall will forever be a viable playstyle.

>Duggy was perfectly fine for the past 4 generations, the only reason people consider it ban worthy now is because of the power circlejerk between Charizard-Y and Chansey who justify each other being in the tier despite being too good for it. If these two mons got banned, duggy would lose power.

>There are more urgent things that need to be banned like Magearna and Greninja who are all justified in the first place because of Chansey allowing the powercreep to thrive, banning Duggy will make Chansey safer to use and it will also justify Magearna and Greninja staying in the tier.

Dugtrio is the chemo, not the cancer, there's too much busted shit that needs to be removed and he just helps ensure its removal.

>>33449654
No it's fucking not, if Trapinch was the only thing that got it you wouldn't hear anyone complaining about it

>>33449218
one day smogon bans everything but tackle.

>>33449654
>Arena Trap is inherently broken
Name 2 Pokemon that are broken with Arena Trap. If it is broken, then every Arena Trap user would also be broken.

>>33449683

Even if I agreed with all of this, which I do not, why doesn't Blaze Blaziken get a chance to do something in lower tiers?

>ib4 muh complex bans

this shit has happened before
>retarded previous BP Clause
>complex no Drizzle + Swift Swim clause
>complex Shell Smash + Baton Pass clause

There are numerous precedents for complex bans. Banning Blaziken unless it has Blaze would be a complex ban, but it would not be the first.

There is no consistency in this Smogon shit.

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>>33449218

Isn't this just another Dugtrio test?

>No, it's an Arena Trap test. Arena Trap is inherently broken.

But Arena Trap has been around for five whole Generations. What changed?

>Well you see, the users of Arena Trap got buffed by stat boosts, Z-Moves, and general metagame conditions that suit their playstyle.

Which users, specifically?

>Dugtrio.

So it's a Dugtrio test?

>It's an Arena Trap test.

>>33449739
They just don't want to admit that they need to retest Dugtrio. Usually once a suspect is done they don't do a redo.

>>33449753
To be fair, the suspect will only affect OU. You'll still be able to use Diglett and Trapinch in other tiers. So in practice it'll be virtually the same as just a Duggy test.

>>33449770
You won't be able to use Arena Trap Trapinch in OU, if it gets banned.

>>33449776
he means in other tiers like LC or UU or whatever the fuck you want.

>>33449781
Shouldn't it be banned in all tiers if it is 'inherently broken' like Moody and Swagger are?

If trapping is inherently unfair than it shouldn't be available in any tier.

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>>33449739
Kek

>>33449770
No if it gets banned in a upper tier its no usable on the lower ones, thats why you don't see drizzle politoed on RU and NU because it got banned UU.

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I wish they would just change it to a dugtrio test. That way Diglett can take its rightful place as the king of OU

>>33449832
This.
When people actually reached high ladder OU thanks to Moody Bidoof, that was a good argument for 'inherently broken bs'.

When people reach high OU ladder thanks to Diglett or Trapinch, I will agree with this shit.

>>33449843
People literally got reqs for the dugtrio test with diglet stall.

>>33449861
source?

>>33449843
This.
Showderp is proof behind this idea. Look at the ever beloved Citizen Snips. The whole idea around it is that it can use Acupuncture to boost evasion. While on paper evasion boosting moves are broken, no one is ever going to to get anywhere on the ladder because of it.

>>33449867
First result when you google "diglett stall".
https://mobile.twitter.com/joeypokeaim/status/832722559510605825

>>33449230
>>33449301
>>33449407
>>33449446
>>33449487
>>33449690
>>33449685
>>33449739

Open the smogon thread here >>33449224

See the post that Gary made about uninformed people throwing shit around and pretending it's an informed opinion?

He was talking to retards like you. Neck yourselves.

>>33449730
Dugtrio
Diglett

Wow that was hard

>>33449459
This, it finally catched up, I was using in HO since Pheromosa was still in OU and this thing takes a shit on loads of stuff.

People underestimated dugtrio in HO and balance.

>>33449814
Well its actually up to the UU tier leaders to decide on whether or not they want to adopt the ban.
If they don't expect to see Dugtrio shitting up UU. Though 99% they will definitely ban arena trap as well.

>>33449885
Is Joey, dare I say it, /ourguy/?

>>33449927
>dugtrio HO
I've never seen dug outside of stall, balance and very very rarely BO.

>>33449906
>t.drone who knows nothing about game design and will parrot everything the corrupt Smogon council says
One day your mom will die and you will be forced to get a job and think by yourself, when that happens come back and re-read your shitty posts.

>>33449922
>diglet
No. Diglet is unusable in OU.

>>33449950
Disproved right in this very thread.

>>33449950
t. Sub-1300 shitter
Look at >>33449885

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>>33449950
Here's this thread from back when Dugtrio was originally was tested.
https://archive.nyafuu.org/vp/thread/31731774/#q31733187

>>33449943
everyone on heatsquad is /ourguy/
especially emvee

>>33449947
imagine being so fucking dumb that you continue to talk massive shit about something you don't understand after getting called out on it. imagine being so fucking obtuse that instead of trying to read a little bit and get a feel for the compelling arguments for a dugtrio ban, you just plug your ears and spew out the same tired shit about smogon being "corrupt".

how the fuck do you continue to survive on a daily basis with 3 brain cells, my guy

>>33449734
"no complex bans" was their big thing in gen 5 really, which is when they started doing complex bans and there was an uproar then.

>>33449734
>retarded previous BP Clause
>complex no Drizzle + Swift Swim clause
>complex Shell Smash + Baton Pass clause
>he's so desperate to find examples of complex bans he lists baton pass twice

>>33449988
The Gen V Baton Pass clause and the recent Baton pass clause before the total ban were different.

>>33449971
>after getting called out on it
A dumb nigger doing a preemptive post for your typical "durr hurr omgon ban swagger" retard isn't calling out anything, you're a subhuman who has yet to make a single argument pro ban and just tells people to read whatever that guy posted instead of disproving whatever people say, "it has a high usage and win rate in wcop" isn't an argument, lots of shit have high usage and winrate.
Since you're such a fucking drone that can't formulate arguments by himself and has to redirect to things that aren't even arguments I'll tell you what to do. Grab a sharp knife, cut your fingers off your left hand, and hopefully bleed to death, if you somehow survive, it should at least ensure your shitposting is slowed down.

>>33449988
...not to mention the 'Endless Btatle Clause' which is a huge can of worms in and of itself

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>>33450003

>>33449970
When diglet gets up to even 2% usage in OU talk to me.

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>>33450003

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>>33450027
>>33450037
Great arguments, here's mine, just as good.

>>33449885
I don't think I've met many people who like Pokemon as much as joey. at least that's the feeling I get from his vids but i gotta wonder if it's a fake personality just for views or if he actually loves pokemon

>>33449667
Blaze Blaziken is absolutely not comparable to Arena Trap-less Dugtrio. Incredibly dishonest comparison.

>>33450030
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-02/gen7oususpecttest-1825.txt
>| 47 | Diglett | 3.14740% |
Here's the usage stats from the Dugtrio suspect back in February

>smogoons saved duggy as a long play to ban the ability itself
nice

>>33449947
>reread your shitty posts
Unless his narsassistic enough to cap all his own posts his posts are gonna be long gone by the next week mate

>>33450051
nani?
how about Frisk Goth?

>>33450059
>what are archives

>>33450003
what the fuck is your problem? you honestly expect people to rehash the extensive argumentation that's already been done at the end of the dugtrio suspect test thread AND spoonfeed you with what the most recent arguments for the arena trap ban are that you can find by GOING TO THE THREAD LINKED IN THE SECOND POST?

you are one of the laziest, most obnoxious pieces of shit I've met on this board, and that's saying a lot. no one is gonna do more work than they have to when you can just go fucking read up on it yourself.

i really hope that you're like no older than 20 because if you are then god fucking help you, man. you are FUCKED if this is the way you approach the rest of your life.

>>33449667
Wasn't the legality of the biggest issue with Blaziken, the SDPass set, in question initially anyway?

>>33450088
nope. It's always been is ability to rape offense with 3 attacks+SD/Protect

>>33450071
>having the ability to look up all your old posts on an anonymous imageboard archive
Do I have anonymize on by accident and he's posting with a name/trip?

>>33450101
You can prolly look up "arena trap suspect" in the op and find the thread.
You can recognize threads you posted in and posts you made in general.

>>33450052
This doesn't make any sense. Something else had to change in gen 7 to see this surge in arena trap use because it's been around so long

When will the suspect ladder be up? I plan on getting reqs.

>>33450094
I mean anything can sweep after some speed boosts and/or cheeky SDs. I thought I remembered the issue being BPing all the boosts out if you were walled hardcore

>>33450101
Newfag.

>>33450125
Dugtrio just didn't see use on stall until late gen 6.

wtf trapinch will never be ou now

>>33450127
Issue is, Blaziken has a lot of coverage, so it's nigh impossible to wall after a SD in the current metagame. Toxapex resists its stabs, but it can just run earthquake. Latis also do, but it can run knock off/shadow claw.
Only hard counter I can think of off the top of my head is Fini, which can easily be worn down due to lack of recovery. And even then Blaziken can just run poison jab if it jumps in usage.

>>33450080
The extensive argumentation that as mentioned boils down to "We allowed Chansey who walls a lot of things extensively no matter how broken and has to be broken by other type of broken attackers", "Oh no this broken thing that is only walled by Chansey and things easily trapped, is running rampant since Dugtrio traps them" and "Oh shit the broken stuff that breaks past Chansey and its fallback is easily trapped and revenge killed" If it wasn't for these very broken powercreeping things running rampant Dugtrio, who has been a decent albeit not busted mon for the past 4 generations wouldn't be as strong as a result.
And there's retards that regurgitate the 20 bst buff as if it was meaningful despite the fact that he was already good in late ORAS because of both Dugstall and DugZardY cores.

I really hope you pull your shit together and actually start thinking on your own instead of reading what Tier Councils say and nodding without questioning anything or learning context.
I'm done with you trash. I'll just destroy you in the ladder when I get reqs.

>>33450179
This, and blaziken rapes offense as well. Offensive teams usually can only deal with setup sweepers by revenge killing them with a scarfer or faster pokemon, but once blaziken is at +2 speed or higher it can easily ruin through offensive teams and OHKO or 2HKO everything.

>>33450125
Nigga the reasons have been posted multiple times already.

>countering Speed Boost Blaziken is viable in Trick Room

>>33449218
iirc that one midget kike finchinator is still underage
why do you listen to kiddies whimsical suspects?

>>33450248
Honestly
>viable in trick room
Is my favourite competitive saying.

It shows that someone either knows exactly what they're doing or absolutely nothing.

>blaziken and deoxys-d are still banned
lmaoing @ smogon tbqh imo
how's the smogon genie tho, is she 45% usage yet?

>>33449276
He's right. Nobody forces you to play that so if you don't like it the most intelligent thing to do is get the fuck away.

>>33450280
99% of the time it's the latter.

>>33450324
>knows absolutely nothing
>99% of the time
>vp

No shit, Mr Holmes.

>>33450324
Definitely. Personally I love it when there's something like Crabominable a Pokemon I love btw and people are going on about how it's great under TR when most Pokémon actually good under TR usually set it themselves, have reasonable bulk, aren't weak to priority and/or work fairly well outside of it.
ie Magearna

>>33450181
if that's honestly what you got out of the council posts from the arena trap thread and that massive post near the end of the dugtrio suspect test thread, then you are beyond help. know how I know this? ABR was the only person in the linked thread who mentioned anything significant about chansey. you read ONLY his post, COMPLETELY misinterpreted it, then came back here to spout off like you know fucking anything. what a motherfucking piece of work you are, dipshit.

i find it had to believe someone like you has ever been above 1400, so I'll be looking forward to not seeing screencaps of your reqs in a couple weeks.

>dugtrio and arena trap don't get banned
>suddenly a new suspect to ban every brown pokemon able to learn memento
would not surprised them to pull another gengar gate

>>33450351
Gengar gate?

>>33450356
when some smogon children really really really wanted to remove mega gengar from fucking ubers but the results didn't end as they wanted so their ego forced to open a new suspect that was clearly the same fucking shit aimed to ban mega gengar

>>33450373
kek

>>33450046
He definitely lets off some very fake mannerisms, especially when he laughs and tries to fit in with other poketubers, but he does love Pokemon. I think he even had a video about his "selling out" at one point.

>>33450046
>>33450396
I don't think I've seen someone play a game for so long and maintain as much passion as he does. He tries out most metagames, for fun and for a challenge. He likes using strong Pokémon, niche and gimmick Pokémon and weaker Pokémon as a joke/for surprise. He gets excited for each game release and just wants the next installment to be just as if not more enjoyable as the last.
Mostly it's his attitude about adapting to whatever Pokemon becomes that I appreciate, it shows he recognises that to really enjoy something as much as he does you need to grow around the product, and not expect it to grow around you.

They should have just made this a Dugtrio 2.0 test, because that is what it is as far as OU is concerned.

>Dugtrio dies
>Sablenite stays banned
kek

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Duggy was always good with Arena Trap, just weak as shit. However, this metagame is particular in that you can only afford one all-out stallbreaker or risk getting torn about by offense. When the particularly good stallbreakers get shut down by Duggy like Lele or Medicham, it's become a prob. Duggys a prob on stall teams, not on offfense. Also, there's the atk boost and Z-Moves. Now Duggy doesn't need to run band anymore since the only move it needed to achieve OHKO's with, EQ, gets a one time boost. Which can very easily be used at the right time since you can just trap that one stallbreaker. Stall can adapt without duggy, it always does, it just makes stall too easy to use. Easier then usual. Especially with Eject Button in use.

>>33450440
>what is diglett
read the rest of the thread

Gary talks like such a tool now, he was better before he went for the military stuff

What happened to him

>>33450483
Moderating the OU forum takes a toll on a man.

Dude just play Battle Spot lmao

>>33450508
So much this.

Battle Spot might have cancer tactics but atleast it does not have cancer councils.

>>33450508
eww

>>33449514
this

How do suspects work? Can you use the suspected pokemon within the suspect tier?

>>33450677
Arena Trap is banned on the suspect test ladder.

>>33450700
Are both ladders still up? OU and non suspect OU?

>>33450373
that was the one where chaos himself, the owner of smogon, stepped in, correct?

>>33450700
this is usually the precedent. some OM suspects i've got recs for had it the reverse though where the suspect was allowed on ladder.

>>33450772
>OM
unironically kys

I wish Dug had been banned the first time around, I'm curious if Dig stall really would've become the standard or if that was memeing from people who wanted Dug to stay.

>>33449345
Shadowtag and now arena trap

My guess is block is next

>>33449499
No trap works on ghosts

>>33449645
I still don't see why they can't just ban combos of mon/move/ability like they did funbro.

Just say no speedboats blaziken and leave normal blazikens out and normal speedboosters out. No arena trap dugtrio, but other dugtrio fine and other arena trap like trapinch are fine.

>>33450101
If You know the content of a post you can just search words in that post.

>>33450941
>I still don't see why they can't just ban combos of mon/move/ability like they did funbro.
Because it would be ass for smogon to tier and be would be extremely confusing for new players. Imagine for example magic guard clefable being OU, unware clefable UU, and cute charm clefable PU, but cute charm clefable with thunder wave is BL4.
The only reason endless battle clause is a thing is because showderp was causing havoc in the low ladder. If not for showderp it probably wouldn't be a thing.

>>33449276
I mean, he's right. They know they're playing some whack stuff it's your decision to abide to their rules

>>33451137
>confusing for new players

Dude they literally tell you when you're team is invalid and why.

desu smogon is shit. all i honestly see is "THIS HURTS MUH STALL PLS BAN I DIDNT SEE THIS COMING OMG MY CHANSEY :"("

jesus, if you want an UNBEATABLE TEAM;

CHECK
ALL
YOUR
COUNTERS

even use a fucking gimmick set if need be gotdammit

>>33451493

but it forced me to use a pokemon that I didn't want to... th-that means it's uncompetitive! plz ban

>>33451511
>but it forced me to use a pokemon that I didn't want to
can't keep the playfield to your advantage?
sucks to suck
not once have I ever had a problem with Dugtrio

>>33451493
But desu, Arena Trap is literally one of the biggest contributors to stall in the meta.

>>33451531
>>33451520
>not once have I ever had a problem with Dugtrio

>>33451531
>>33451548
>replying to such obvious bait and/or replying to yourself

>>33451493
How can you be so stupid? Stall benefits immensely from Dugtrio's existence, it lets stall
isolate and take out whatever threats it can't eliminate through toxic, like Magearna and Heatran.

>>33451548
Doesn't matter whether or not you've had a problem with Dugtrio or not. Arena Trap is a key contributor to stall and is one of, if not the main reason it's so common in the meta.

Stop following Smogon rules and learn to think for yourselves you sheep

>>33449218
B-but muh sappy Dugtrio essay /vp/
B-but muh stall

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>>33451566
You're right :^) thinking for myself, objectively, mega rayquaza is the best pokemon in the game, so let's run 6 of that! No rules no problem!

>>33449218
>Nihilego benefits
>Hoopa benefits
>stall suffers
I'm ok with this.

>>33451559
It's more for shit like Tapu Lele and Hoopa-U, ie. Stallbreakers

Can't break stall when you're trapped by something that could 2HKO you with a sash or OHKO you with Groundium Z

You could say that they should adapt with shed shell but they're no longer strong enough to break through stall without their items like Life Orb and shit

It even helps stall against other stall, trap Chansey and kill it and the tide of the battle is remarkably in your favour

>>33449739
Pretty much.

>>33451566
>think for myself
>come to the conclusion that smogon is still better than vgc or battlespot

>>33451578
>what's VGC
>what's BS singles

There are alternatives.

>>33451593
>chansey is too good
>therefore we should ban dugtrio

smogon logic, ladies and gentlemen

>>33451622
Stop following Gamefreak rules and learn to think for yourselves you sheep

Just saying it now. Y'all are stupid!

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>>33451636
They kind of made the game

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>>33449224
>read the opinions of the so-called "pro players"
>every one of them only talks about Arena Trap in the context of Dugtrio
>some of them even mention they don't believe Arena Trap is broken and would prefer a Dugtrio retest instead
I don't understand nu-smogon sometimes.

>>33451673
learn to think for yourself you sheep

>>33451703
It's almost as if, now stay with me on this, some people have different opinions on the way things should be done and that's the reason suspect tests and the mass vote that follows are held in the first place.

If diglett/trapinch stall is a thing why are there no videos on it?

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>>33451617
this, I started with VGC but switched over to smog singles halfway through XY. Haven't looked back since.

Hold the fuck up, did they try to ban Dugtrio before? Isn't this just banning Dugtrio again?

Didn't the foudner of smogon fuck the ubers people up for trying this shit with Mega Gengar?

>>33451809
Wait what did Chaos do?

>>33451779
Because people ITT don't understand that having some success with a niche Pokemon on ladder =/= broken, or even viable in the long run. Diglett is a significant downgrade over Dugtrio and Trapinch is just plain not viable. I'm 99% sure that Diglett reaching 3% usage on the last test was just faggots trying to make a point and failing, unlike lets say Moody which was clear as day was broken on literally everything that gets it.

>>33451779

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531415248
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531418176
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531386371
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531890653

>>33451844
Dubs speaketh truth.

>>33451824
My memory is a bit fuzzy but
>Ubers pre-ORAS
>Mega Gengar is ripping the metagame a new asshole
>calls to ban Mega Gengar from the meta
>"but thou can't, it's Ubers!"
>some mod has a "clever" idea to test Shadow Tag instead (since shit like Moody is still banned from Ubers)
>ban makes it through with a slight majority (something like 54% of the votes)
>shortly before the ban goes live, chaos (the founder of the website) steps in and cancels the whole test
>mod who came up with the idea gets demoted, test never spoken of again
And then ORAS came out and forced them to create a new tier just to deal with Mega Rayquaza's power creeping the fuck out of everyone else

>>33451866
Huh.

>>33451862
>stall is broken
>throw a mememon on a broken team
>call the mememon broken

Speed influencing crit just needs to come back

>>33451866
Oh my God that's hilarious

>>33451809
>did they try to ban Dugtrio before? Isn't this just banning Dugtrio again?
Yes and yes. Retesting shit isn't new in OU, especially since dugtrio continues to be a big problem and the last suspect was so close (58% IIRC with 60% needed to ban) and a very common reason people voted no ban was because they believed arena trap was the problem and not dugtrio itself.

>>33451908
Imo one of the biggest reasons why Dugtrio escaped the ban was because of reyscarface, infamous stallfag

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-suspect-process-round-2-dirt.3595351/page-11

Look at that essay, holy fuck

He posted that when they were about to start voting and loads of people got swayed by that

>>33451866
is there evidence of this shitstorm archived somewhere?

looks hilarious in hindsight

>>33449906

Ironic that you would criticise other people for having "uninformed opinions" when your entire counterargument is "you're all retards like Smogon daddy says".

You're welcome to come back and participate in this thread when you have an original thought of your own.

>>33449971
> imagine being so fucking obtuse that instead of trying to read a little bit and get a feel for the compelling arguments for a dugtrio ban

So you admit that its really Dugtrio being suspected here, not Arena Trap? Checkmate you fucking shitter.

Imagine being so fucking dumb that you undermine your own argument in the same breath as calling other people uninformed.

>>33451963
people have spent months laying out the case for dugtrio being suspected. there is nothing else new to add at this point. there is no point in me spoonfeeding retards who CLEARLY have not read any of the arguments for banning and are just shitflinging because they hate smogon.

every single point that has been brought up in the thread so far has been argued against in triplicate by people who are smarter and way more experienced than me. it's not my prerogative to do anything other than point people to said discussions.

How many hours until Verlisify makes a video about this?

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>>33451973
ya got me

>>33451862
>1
Diglett revenge kills a Pokemon not avaliable in the tier anymore and dies shortly afterwards
>2
Garbage player and team with Pokemon such as tank Crapchomp and Lolcanion. Gets forced out by said TankChomp whereas Dugtrio would just go straight for the kill.
>3
Garbage player and team (Scald Greninja lul). Diglett kills a weakened poisoned Fini with a lucky crit. Such broken wow.
>4
Low ladder battle. Diglett kills a x4 ground weak Pokemon that runs an outdated set and was deadweight against stall to begin with. Fails to r-kill a Tapu Koko since it has exactly only one usable set from the looks of it (SashReversal) whereas Dugtrio could actually run something like Scarf and comfortably finish it off.

4/10 better luck next time

>>33450080
>>33450080
>i really hope that you're like no older than 20 because if you are then god fucking help you, man. you are FUCKED if this is the way you approach the rest of your life.

It is so fucking bizarre when people try to draw wide-ranging, life-affecting conclusions about people from their posts about fucking Pokemon of all things on a well known shithole like /vp/. It looks desperate and pathetic, and belies that in this particular case you are so consumed by being "right", and your opponent being "wrong", that you're trying to draw negative implications about who he is as a real person based on this single interaction you've had, rather than just, i don't know, RESPONDING TO WHAT HE SAYS. It's fucking pathetic.

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>>33449428
I like how everybody ignored this guy because they know he's right.

>>33451973
Anon, everyone already knows this is basically a dugtrio retest.
It's only an arena trap test this time because people kept saying "muh diglett stall"' last time.
Smogon is allowed to suspect the same thing twice, see Mega Sableye in gen 6.

>>33452005
>replying to your own post

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>>33452017
Shit you got me. How did you know?

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>>33452017
OH NO I'VE BEEN FOUND OUT

>>33449305
But Necrozma

>>33451992

You also said Dugtrio again here:

>>33451983
>people have spent months laying out the case for dugtrio being suspected

Just admit it, you're cooked. Calling "typo" when its an argument you've repeated on multiple occasions is just fucking pathetic.

>>33452007
Or Latias in gen 4 with whopping 4 tests.

>>33452003
it's really not. let's say that you're a fairly well-adjusted adult human being who asked me a question. right? so I give you a book with the EXACT answer to your question, and I even tell you what pages to read, nothing more, nothing less, that will show you the answer to your question.

and then you say to me "WOW DUDE YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTION OMG KYS FAGGOT"

put on your empathy cap for a second and think about how you think that would make me feel regarding you as a person. think about what kind of impression that gives me.

>>33452035
I said dugtrio in the second post because THATS WHAT THE LAST RELEVANT SUSPECT TEST I WAS REFERENCING WAS FOR you fucking dipshit.

>>33449218
Oh fuck yes, I've been waiting for this since forever.

I don't get it

Why ban arena trap when before people wanted blaziken to stay and only ban speed boost.

Speed boost is what got baton pass banned with ninjask/scoli also which should be more than enough to get that ability banned instead of the mons

>>33452084
you must have missed the last thread we had on blaziken because it is a can of worms you do not want to open up on this board, my dude

>>33452084
Double standards

>>33452060

I was the author of that other post, and nothing in our comment chain is about >>33451983
>the Dugtrio suspect lmao. Here's our comment chain as you're obviously confused:

>>33449906
>>33451963
>>33451983

Nothing in there is about anything other than the current Suspect test you laughable mong.

>>33452021
>>33452027

>Making two separate joke replies to make it seem like it really wasn't you replying to your own post

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>>33452107
You read me like a book my guy.

>>33450508
>Claustrophobic 3v3 format.
>Less viable mons than fucking OU
>It takes 30 seconds to forfeit a doomed match
>"Would you like to save a video of your battle"
Explain this

To all the people complaining about this being a Dugtrio v.2 test:

Last time, Dugtrio as a whole was suspected, and would've been banned if enough voted yes. Many however felt that Dugtrio wasn't the issue and instead its ability. Others felt that other species, like Pheromosa and Megagross, had to be addressed first before suspecting Dugtrio. And others simply felt it wasn't broken. The end result is that it stayed.

Now, with the two aforementioned threats removed, they're revisiting the issue, but now it's about Arena Trap as an ability. Partially because some theorized that Trapinch could be used to somewhat the same extent, but also because in today's meta where you need to account for so many things, being able to lock in everything that's grounded is simply too good. Another difference is that if Arena Trap gets banned, Dugtrio will remain, albeit heavily nerfed.

It's also been about 7 months since the Dugtrio suspect with other suspects inbetween, with the last one concluding in May, so this is not a rushed test but instead something that has gotten the time to settle but is still viewed as an issue.

>>33452221
>Many however felt that Dugtrio wasn't the issue and instead its ability.
No, people who were on fence changed their vote at the last second because some prominent tourneyfag wrote a 100 page master thesis on why dugtrio is the only thing holding muh gen 7 stall together and they felt like sucking his dick out of pity

>Partially because some theorized that Trapinch could be used to somewhat the same extent
No it fucking wouldn't. Trapinch was fucking useless piece of shit back when I used it in gen 4 ***NU***. Nothing changed that would make it even slightly viable 3 generations worth of power creep later. There is a better argument to be made for Diglett but so far the replays haven't been very convincing.

>>33451932
>>33452370
This.

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>>33449407
>Dugtrio is considered a bigger threat to OU than Landorus
I fucking hate Smogon

>>33449739
Didn't this happen last generation with Gengar in Ubers? First they tried banning M-Gengar, then they tried banning Shadow Tag?

>>33452459
You see, Lando-T centralises the meta in a good way.

>>33452459
I assume you don't play OU much.

>>33450443
Sablenite is unbanned in SM OU.

>>33452528
Since when? Didn't they ban it, like, a day before SM came out?

>>33450451
Does anyone play ORAS after gen 7 came out? Did stall adapt to Sableye being banned?
Seems kinda tough when Medicham could just spam HJK

>>33452539
It's banned in ORAS not in SM
Different gens, different metas

>>33452539
It did get banned not long before Gen 7, but it got banned from ORAS, not SM.

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>>33452370
Remember to rehydrate when carrying obscene amounts of salt.

This is good news

>>33450125
are you fucking retarded
>z moves mean that dugtrio is now able to kill whatever it wants with tectonic rage/continental crush/all out pummeling/supersonic skystrike
>10 more base attack mean that relevant 2HKOes are now OHKOes and 3hkoes are 2HKOes which combined with z-moves means Dugtrio is more powerful than ever
>stall nature means that they don't lose anything by making dugtrio their z-move user

>>33452810
>dugtrio dugtrio dugtrio
>test is about arena trap ability as a whole
really makes me hmmm

>>33452826
nigger what? I'm not even entering that retarded argument

I just explained why Arena Trap + Dugtrio got increasingly more used in gen 7

>>33452840
you did not even mention Arena Trap in your retarded little shillrant, smogonfag

>>33452909
fuck off

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Why are you guys arguing so much whether this should have been a Dugtrio or an Arena Trap suspect? The end result is practically the same.

>>33452459
Landorus-T puts everything in its right place. If it weren't for it, Dugtrio would've been banned ages ago.

I think the only tier below OU that won't adopt the Arena Trap ban is probably LC, since Arena Trap Diglett is used their but it's much less effective at removing every threat to a team and more of a one or two-time revenge killer.

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>>33453221
From where you get those rare pepe images?
Either way, thanks for filling my frogfolder.

Anyone trying to say that this test is somehow NOT exclusively about Dugtrio, then make an informed post about WHY arena trap is somehow broken without bringing up Duggy once.

Not one fucking time.

>>33453365
D-d-diglett

>>33452826
The fact people somehow got to make fucking Diglett work in OU convinced the mods than Arena Trap is the main issue.

>>33453365
It is about Dugtrio they're just too proud to test it twice so they just call this a Arena Trap suspect instead. Not that it matters anyways, good thing it'll be finally getting the boot along with any potential stall Diglett/Trapinch memes.

>>33453365
It is about Dugtrio.
Thing is, they did suspect Dugtrio once and it failed because some dudes could use Diglett to do certain things that were at the core arguments of the Dugtrio suspect.
But be not fooled, this is just another Dugtrio suspect, except now you can't use Trapinch and Diglett either, and now Alolan Dugtrio will finally have a shitty reason to exist.

>>33452459

If you don't play OU, please don't comment.

>>33452459
Reminder that a plethora of OU mons with high usage including lando-t and skarm counter most marshadow sets while marshadow doesn't counter anything viable except slow sword dancers (what kind of retard SDs on marshadow?) and gets fucked up by anything with DD.
Yet marshadow got banned, despite not being far less flexible than lando-t.

>>33453916
>OU mons with high usage including lando-t and skarm counter most marshadow sets
LMAO do anti-smogonfags actually believe this?

>>33453916
>252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

>4- SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 322-385 (84.2 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Nice counters, fag.

Smogon really needs to stop with the "no banning abilities unless absolutely necessary" bullshit. They already proved they can by banning Power Construct, why go back with this?

>>33453365
press f3, write "diglett"

>>33450014
I was looking into this a while ago and the guy that programs showdown said that he has too much fun watching people try to cause endless battles so they keep adjusting it for his amusement.

>>33449483
how high on the ladder are you friend? you able to beat all the dugtrio stall / dug+zard Y teams?

>>33451866
you're missing the part where the mod tried to tell people they needed to vote to ban if they ever wanted to be modded

its why they always talk about no vote manip now in the voting threads

lul

>>33450014
>>33450941
endless battle clause gets a pass because it's a genuine example of a special situation

it will literally never apply in a legitimate battle, it's just there to stop people from being assholes so zarel had free reign in its implementation

>>33454415
What was the mod's name?

Smogon has so much mod drama with Bloo being a girl pretending to be a guy the whole time, Haunter flirting with an underage girl, princess briyella or someshit being a dude pretending to be a girl and talking to girls in a creepy pedo way

who here likes smogon? xD
+1 like = respect smogon

>>33449361
That's what some said about Arena Trap

>old Smogon was corrupt because they banned too much
>new Smogon is corrupt because they ban too little and way too late
Alternative when? Preferrably one that actually modifies the game to fix all the broken shit and removes all the obnoxious RNG.

>>33454513
>trapping literally everything bar ghost types and flying types/levitators
>situational
that's like 80% of the meta

>>33454432
>complex ban gets pass because muh special special situation
>special2

Why do all these smogonfags sound so 'special'?

>>33454539
I know you probably pulled that number out of your ass, but you're more or less right with that percentage.

>>33452489
>>33453247
I can't tell if these are shitposts or not.

>>33450764
Yeah, they threw out a TON of votes that were against the ban claiming they were "low quality" and didn't have valid reasoning. They always throw out votes they don't like but it was especially blatant here and like a quarter of the total votes were removed. People actually called Smogon out on its shit for once and then the owner had to step in and reverse the ban.

>>33455624
You can at least try to argue back, you know.

Mega Sableye is the problem

>>33455757
I don't want to put forth the effort to try and convince a Smogon drone that having the same Pokémon on almost half of all teams means it's too centralizing.

>>33455624
Anybody who complains about Landorus either does not play OU or plays at 1050 with a karen team full of Lurantis and Relicanth.
Landorus is what allows you to have any flexibility at all while teambuilding because you don't need to dedicate 5 slots to avoiding autolosses.
Without it people would only use stall and dude dragon dance lmao faceroll offense.

>>33455794
It's on almost half the teams because it's easy to use. Usage has literally very little to do with viability and brokenness. Just because you don't like seeing something too much doesn't mean it's inherently bad for the meta. Without Landorus-T, every single physical sweeper (too many to count) would get a boost and force them to then ban most of them, one by one.

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>>33455806
>Landorus is okay because it can singlehandedly prevent autolosses
Anon can you fucking hear yourself
>>33455808
>if we got rid of Lando-T then a ton of Pokémon would become a lot better and this bad
What the hell is wrong with you people

>>33452370
>some prominent tourneyfag wrote a 100 page master thesis on why dugtrio is the only thing holding muh gen 7 stall together
He's right though. Stall's effectiveness relies on covering every single threat on an opponent's team. Between gen 6's megas and gen 7's z-moves there are way, way too many strong things for that to be possible. The only way stall has a shot of working is if it can try and tweak the matchup into a winnable one.
I'm not particularly upset if stall sucks but Smogon has a pretty clear policy of trying to keep all playstyles viable and this ban would clearly buttfuck stall.

Why do Smogonfags think that we give a fuck about an evil community like Smogon? Fuck off.

>>33455808
>Just because you don't like seeing something too much doesn't mean it's inherently bad for the meta.

That's literally why they banned M-Mawile a gen ago. Just admit that

>>33455832
>>if we got rid of Lando-T then a ton of Pokémon would become a lot better and this bad
Yes it is, because they would become too centralizing and there simply aren't enough counters for everything (or everyone would resort to stall, yey). The absence of Landorus-T would probably force the ban of Zygarde, Mega Mawile, and possibily many others, including DD users, Mega Medicham, and Garchomp.
You're completely missing the initial point anyway which is that Landorus-T has nothing inherently broken about it, it's just easy to use and used a lot. If Nidoqueen were used a lot in UU as well you idiots would probably claim it to be broken as well because you simply can't understand the difference between usage and viability.

>>33455867
Mega Mawile's usage didn't even reach 30% when it first got suspected. Usage was not the problem, being broken was. And it got banned by vote because shitters like you voted for it.

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>>33455876
>because they would become too centralizing
Your argument for keeping Lando-T in its current centralizing position is that it would allow multiple other Pokémon to centralize things? Can you not see the hypocrisy in your argument?

>>33455876
Just because centralization is not the same thing as brokeness, does not mean that centralization is a positive thing that should be celebrated or preserved.

>>33454845
Endless battle clause breaking smogon policy to avoid complex bans has been brought up before http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/clarifying-and-laying-groundwork-for-policy-surrounding-non-pokémon-bans-and-complex-clauses.3586797/ . Tl;Dr is basically endless battle clause is complex because it has to be

>>33455893
Again, Landorus-T isn't broken, it's just easy to use and a good counter to all of those said mons. It also allows for more diverse playstyles, and thus for many more mons to be used altogether. It's current centralizing position is what allows this. Thanks to it, a full 6 mon team can carry more than just the same ways to prevent physical sweepers.

>>33455896
I don't think anyone celebrates it, but it is easy to use and requires little knowledge. More experienced players don't focus so much on it as scrubs do.

>>33455947
Aegislash proves this wrong. That mon was in a similar position and was banned because of it. If something is a problem but keeps other things in check, it's just broken checking broken, you know, the thing that Smogon tries to avoid. But no, clearly this case is different.

>>33457297
>but muh Aegislash made whole types unviable so it had to go meme
>Talonflame did the same shit for a whole generation. Smogon was okay with that.

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>smogon

>>33455773
It is tho, but muh bouncey is fair apparently

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>>33457604
>pokemon

>>33457668
Espeon, Xatu, and Mega Absol are fine. Every single fully-evolved Pokemon with Arena Trap is causing problems in OU :^)

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>>33453403
>Alolan Dugtrio will finally have a shitty reason to exist.

Nope. Even without Arena Trap normal Duggy's more popular & faster enough to be used as a suicide lead of sorts.

>>33457759
>suicide lead
What is this Gen 4?

>>33457759
Great job censoring your name Moltz

>>33457781
Kek

What a retard!

>>33457712
Except those 2 mons sucks as defesive bouncers on anything except RU and NU and M-Absol has shitty defenses and no recovery so it sucks on stall.

>>33455908
They should just fuck their outdated "no complex bans" rule and just replace it with "a Pokemon+ability combo may be moved to Ubers". No slippery slope nonsense about banning Pokemon+attack combinations because the number of combinations is unreasonable and no applying it to lower tiers because Ubers is still functionally a banlist despite recently being recognized as an actual tier (it's not usage-based).

>>33458680
nah

reminder Smogon is always moving the goalposts
>a Pokemon is supposed to uber if it does not have a reliable counter
>Pokemon with trapping abilities cannot be literally countered due to nothing being able to switch in
>Wobbuffet got unbanned in Gen 5 despite this rule

aegislash should be moved back down to OU

should've just been a dugtrio retest, the meta had changed enough since the first one that it actually did warrant reconsideration

the way it's being done now it makes them look scared of diglett even though its presence wouldn't have lasted

ITT: smogon dicksuckers get utterly btfo but continue to look away from the truth

>>33449971
With a job, you should get one as well :^)

>>33460197
>if you live in a democracy, you automatically support who everyone else voted for

>>33460207
If you voted, it does not matter who or what you voted for... you already legitimized a corrupt system by the sheer act of voting.

>>33460115
This is literally a dugtrio retest.
It's only called an arena trap test this time because a few retards kept crying about diglett stall and they ended up costing the last test to be 2% short of the % needed for a ban.

>>33450306
>>33451199
Except the entire competitive community outside of VGC uses their ruleset. Like it or not, what they decide impacts a ton of people.

>>33454517
if you modify the game it isn't Pokemon.

RNG adds excitement, risk, and unforeseen factors that can change things up entirely. Pokemon isn't Chess.

>>33459478
You do realize what Wobbufett's moveset consists of, right?

I went to the ladder for a bit and after a lot of battles and getting a fell on a No Arena Trap I believe the metagame needs trapping. People say trapping make stall harder to break well it also make the others archetypes less cancer. we got a shitton of viable mons and Dug helped to relieve the match-up issues yeah it made a lots of good mons shit but it also made sure you got less threats you needed to prepare for, without AT a shitton of new treats can be spammed freely and with no almost no risks since they can't be trapped anymore, every mon who got fucked by dug went back to being viable and now unless you're dealing with stall you have higher chances to
lose at the team preview.
Thats my take of the meta, for anyone else who played the ladder what you think of the no AT meta?

>>33460660
*unless it's gen 2

>>33460673
Use periods more and I might actually pay attention to what you post.

>>33449230
If Primal Groudon is broken, why did Gamefreak put it in the game?
CHECKMATE ATHEISTS

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>>33449218
>"the OU tiering council"

Stall just got more stallier, trade in dugtrio for hippowdon w/ sandstream.

>>33463922
Stall needs a trapper to take out wallbreakers retard. They're going to have to run TTar or Weavile.

>>33451593
>It even helps stall against other stall, trap Chansey and kill it and the tide of the battle is remarkably in your favour

What the FUCK is this supposed to mean.

>>33463941
Wall the wallbreakers. Wallbreakers are catered to certain pokemon often and if you can see what wall is needed to wall that pokemon you'll be fine. Hippowdon can use his sandstorm, rocks, slack off, whirlwind, and earthquake to wall mons that fuck with chansey. Biggest problem will be keldeo and skarm walls keldeo.

>>33463995
use ur dug to kill their eggman, and dont let ur eggman get killed by their dug

>>33464006
>skarm walls keldeo
What?
>252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 237-280 (71.1 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>>33464006
>Wall the Wallbreakers
If you don't guess what set Hoopa-U is carrying right you lose one of your walls. Also Keldeo is a special attacker and water doesn't resist steel. Toxapex walls Keldeo.

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>>33453403

Lets really face it, I hate having to listen to you loser low bronze elo newfags. It's obvious that this test is actually happening for only one reason.

And that is because people decided Marshadow was too OP, if Marshadow was allowed back into the metagame it'd finally allow for a balanced Pokemon. Instead Smogon banned it, cause Smogon is pretty much garbage.

Might as well ban Follow Me Pachirisu too, for being to OP

>>33464132
name 3 Pokemon that counter Marshadow.
Actually, name 1 that resists its STAB combo.

is uu the new ou lads? seems much comfier.

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>>33464145

Low test low effort post.

Landorus, Ash Greninja, Tapu Lele

>>33464184
>Landorus
A check, destroyed by Technician HP Ice
>Ash Greninja
has to get a kill first to outspeed Marshadow, does well against it after though
>Toppu Lele
Good at repelling him once it's out, but it can't switch in unless predicting a fighting type move. Also has to be ScarfLel

>>33464184
>Landorus
HP Ice

>Ash-Gren
Can't switch in

>Tapu Lele
Also can't switch in

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>>33464184
How can a board dedicated to Pokemon be so bad at its own game?
None of those are counters.

>>33449286
>Arena trap
>stall mon ends up in a less than ideal situation where he'll likely get KO'd and there's no escape

Yeah fuck off