knock off needs to be removed

shut up

shut up

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>>33062963
>just don't make your pokemon hold items! :D

literally just switch to a pokemon holding a mega stone or a z-crystal

>>33062963
knock off should be nerfed by 5 points ;)

>>33062963

I don't think it needs to be removed, maybe just a slight nerf, like 5 less BP.

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But there are lots of viable switch-ins to Knock Off. Like this one.

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>>33063014
>>33063032
>technician knock-off

>>33062963
You can say the same for every strong move on every strong Pokemon in the game, just shut up

>Dark
>the best attacking type in the game
What

>>33062963
You dont know what broken means apparently

>>33063193
broken is synonymous with overpowered you fucking pedant

>>33063002
>>33063042
le switch into your mega or Z mon
incredible! now it's balanced!

>>33063190
Ghost is objectively better than Dark, isn't it? Because of the sheer infrequency of Normal mons and the frequency of Fairy and Fighting mons.

This is going to be a tough concept for you to grasp, I understand, but hear me out: git gud

Just knock it back down to 20 BP like it originally was. You can either deal damage, or sacrifice damage for one turn to remove the opponent's item.

Or better yet, they shouldn't have fucking made it a TM to begin with.

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>>33063311
Go back to le reddit you cancerous fuck.

>>33062963
>>33064234
stay mad

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>>33062963
Git gud

>>33062963
I'm sorry some shitter's sableye knocked down whatever item you needed for your memey sweep. Git gud.

>>33062963
It does less damage than earthquake with a barely above average offensive type. Get good faggot.

Let's look at other damaging moves with guaranteed secondary effects.
>dynamic punch/zap cannon/inferno
50% accuracy
>nuzzle
20 bp
>fake out
40 bp, limited use

>>33064721
>thinking a guaranteed status condition/flinching is comparable to losing an item
A burn or paralysis can cripple so many pokemon, flinching with damage is great, and it lends itself to technician. Losing an item is a setback, but it wont make the pokemon worthless 90% of the time.

And in all cases but confusion, you can just switch to something that isnt affected by it, like with knock off.

Git. Gud.

>>33064751
But status can be healed

Once again, something can be a little unbalanced without being "OMG SO BROKEN REMOVE NOA PLZ"

Scald is fucking unbalanced, but it doesn't break the game, and could easily use a nerf like thunder/fire blast/etc.

But of course most people on /vp/ will never admit something is imbalanced because that implies they can't handle it with ease because they are the ultimate pro gamers who never lose

>>33064846
only if you have a cleric in your party, and it wastes a turn, and most often a switch too.

knock off used to be more balanced, in gen v it only had 20 base power and no boost
now it has 65 base power and gets a 1.5X boost while the enemy holds an item
originally the only pokemon that ever used it were a few niche support pokemon like shuckle
now all pokemon can run it, since 65 base power (that becomes 97.5) is enough to justify including it on offensive and defensive sets

>>33064878
there's also rest, shed skin, healer, lum berry etc...
not really that hard to cure status

>>33062963
Just cut its base power from 65 to 30. It's supposed to be just a support move, it's too powerful for what it's made to do.

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>>33062963
Stop saying Knock Off is broken; it isn't

>>33066543
>rest
incapacitates you heavily, gives you another status, requires one moveslot, or two if you don't want to be a sitting duck, to be wasted.

>shed skin
situational abilities, I didn't see OP naming sticky hold as a solution to Knock off

>Healer
Only works in doubles, and it's unreliable

>Lum berry
Requires the item slot, consumed after one use. Seeing as how this one's also affected by knock off I see it as a moot point.

So yeah, healing status is still not easy. Getting statused is worse than losing your item.

>>33064234
This

Knock Off was perfectly fine at 20 BP.

>>33066634
>>33066634
>Knock Off was perfectly fine at 20 BP.
Did people even use it? looking at some older sets it seems it was ran only on very selective niche support mons like sableye and pre-mega mawile.

>>33066649
They increased its distribution in gen 6. Most things that could learn it had at least one set running it.

>>33066615
>>33066543
wrekt

>>33066741
I see. Still though, aside from a couple technician users I feel like it would practically disappear.

>>33066649
Right. Knock Off was never supposed to be an incredibly strong move. It was supposed to be a support move. But then in gen 6, its base power went up, the "50% more damage if the Pokemon attack is holding something" bit was added, and now hundreds of new Pokemon could learn it via move tutor in ORAS.

Also, weirdly, it's learned by very few Dark types. In gen 7, Alolan Grimer & Muk, Sableye, Crawdaunt, and Drapion are the only Pokemon that can learn it, and Vullaby and Mandibuzz learn it through breeding. Absol, a dark type physical attacker, can't fucking learn it for some reason, except through tutoring in ORAS.

I venture to guess that Knock Off got buffed in gen 6 to counter Eviolite from gen 5.

Also they chose 65bp specifically to avoid making technicians broken as fuck.

>>33064278
Fuck off

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>>33066818
>Also they chose 65bp specifically to avoid making technicians broken as fuck.
>Knock Off's original BP was 20
>Technician increases weaker moves by 50%
>Therefore Knock Off would have 30 BP by a Pokemon with Technician
>Therefore the solution is to give it 65 BP so it doesn't get that boost
Whatever you say, Anon.

>>33066856
Read the first statement fucker.

>>33066864
But why would that be a counter for Eviolite?
Again, Knock-Off is a support move. It's not supposed to do a huge amount of damage, it's just supposed to get rid of the Pokemon's item. All Eviolite does is provide a defense and special defense boost for unevolved Pokemon.

>>33066901
>Eviolite is an item that boosts defenses and makes bulky mons unkillable
>Knock off removes items
>WHAT DO YOU MEAN KNOCK OFF COUNTERS EVIOLITE? WHY WOULD THEY BUFF THE MOVE WHEN A NEW REALLY GOOD ITEM WAS INTRODUCED? THAT MAKES NO SENSE!

>>33066922
What I'm trying to say is that Knock Off is not supposed to be strong. Its job is to remove the held item. The buff to 65 BP is completely unnecessary because it was already doing its job.

A bulky, unevolved mon with Eviolite is not unkillable. If a Pokemon is holding Eviolite, it would knock it off anyway. So making it stronger, giving the damage bonus, and then letting almost every Pokemon learn it just invites teams that comprise of almost every mon knowing it. It's almost as irritating as Rock Slide.

>>33066615
>arguing that losing an item isn't as crippling as most status
The only thing comparable to losing an item on most Pokémon is paralysis on anything not tanky or trick room and burn on a physical attacker.

Nerf it back to 20 BP

>>33067007
no, that's not true. Not every pokemon depends on their item. In fact a good amount of them don't. You also have megas and z-crystal users.

Paralysis and burn can completely shut down most pokemon, toxic can render stallmons a lot less usefull and fucks up set-up sweepers. Sleep is obviously inhibiting and more reliable than freezing, giving you opponent turns to switch, set up, or attack. In every way, status conditions are more crippling than losing an item, because in most instances an item-less mon can still fight, but in most instances a poisoned, paralyzed or burnt pokemon is just dead weight or death fodder.

Nerf it to 50 BP so it's still good, but over a longer period of time Crunch is better.

Guys what if, and hear me out here, WHAT IF they just decided to not make Knock Off a shitty move anymore?

>there are people who unironically defend knock off

literally scourge of this game
obviously the type of people who use anything to win and don't question the balance simply because "everyone can use it"

>>33062963
get good, faggot.

>>33062963
BTFO stallfag

>>33069177
>pokemon
>balance

>>33069177
Yeah, because already existing power creep with items (eg mega stones, Z-Crystals and Eviolite), as well as glass cannons is balanced. Woe is having a basically one-use 97 BP move that is often resisted in the meta anyway.

>>33071068
>eviolite
It's only good on like 2 mons.

What if knock off got nerfed in that knocking off an item became a 50% chance?

>>33071629
1-3 in each Smogon tier.
And even in Battle Spot it finds its way to cause cancer. Especially in BS because of the limited amount of Pokemon+items.
Eviolite is just an example anyway, there's plenty more.

>>33071663
No thanks, that'd be even more useless RNG that can make or break a game.

I think the real problem at hand is that Incinerate is just a worse Knock Off in every way.

>>33063311
Broken means it doesn't function properly. Broken can be overpowered; like Destoroyah's Horn Katana in Godzilla: Unleashed, but it can also be under-powered; like roar in Pokémon: Red, Green, and Blue

>>33062963
If you hate itso much, just fucking use knock-off to your advantage.