Why Lillie is the best Pokemon Character

>>32865761
insert 300 replies of shitflinging and arguments, most of which are driveby shitposts here

Lillie is shit. End of story. Explaining why would be like explaining why children shouldn't be allowed to play with assault rifles.

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>>32865792
t. Shitrena

>>32865792
could you at least put on a trip so we can filter you
thanks

>>32865801
Serena is just as bad and I don't need to tell anybody why. Every modern pokegirl is a rolling dumpster.

>>32865761
>inb4 hundreds of contrarians get assblasted and call OP a waifufag shill.

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>>32865792
>Explaining why would be like explaining why children shouldn't be allowed to play with assault rifles.
>trying to avoid explaining
You can't even explain why, can you?

>>32865761
>she risked her live to save you and Nebby various times throughout the game
Fucking kek

>>32865829
Lillie is shit because she is an empty husk with no redeeming qualities to her. She never grows through any development, has horrible dialogue, is constantly the product of exposition, and is also ugly as shit.

Feel better?

>>32865761
Okay.

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I've made this simple visual representation of Lillie's "development" so a bonehead like OP can understand that she barely develops at all and what development there is, isn't interesting.

Silver has yet to be dethroned as the best character in the main series.

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>>32865844
>She never grows through any development
Blatantly false.

>has horrible dialogue
It's great dialogue by Pokémon standards.

>is constantly the product of exposition
No shit. SM aren't about you, the trainer. They're about being a selfless good Samaritan and helping a girl reach her full potential. If you only want the adventure to be about yourself, then stick to the inferior old games you selfish prick.

>>32865873
Gladion is better than Silver.

>>32865902
>Blatantly false.
Not an argument.

>It's great dialogue by Pokémon standards.
Her dialogue is Gen 1 levels of bad.

>No shit. SM aren't about you, the trainer. They're about being a selfless good Samaritan and helping a girl reach her full potential. If you only want the adventure to be about yourself, then stick to the inferior old games you selfish prick.
Woah who let this one escape tumblr?

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>>32865902
Gladion has absolutely nothing on Silver. Worse characterization and development, worse design, worse music.

>>32865913
Silver was just a generic edgelord that makes Shadow the Hedgehog look like Barney. Gladion had a bit of edge to him, but also grew as a character since he had to deal with the same abusive mother as Lillie.

All Lillie really has is character development, very simple character development at that. The only thing setting her apart from other Pokémon characters is that she has way more unneeded screentime that other SM characters could have desperately used.

>>32865761
Okay, I'll try and break this down.
>she's not a Mary Sue and realizes she has flaws, working to improve herself as a future trainer
All of her flaws are meant to be endearing and do not actually do anything for her development. Her getting lost isn't actually a flaw - it's meant to make her look cute and pathetic. In addition, you can't tell if she improves herself as a pokemon trainer because she doesn't have a pokemon. You can't tell if her studying or whatever actually makes an impact, so the point's moot.
>she has the most development becoming a strong independent female heroine
Most of her time is spent relying on you or others as an escort. Just a reminder, she relies on Kukui for two months.
>she risked her life to save you, Nebby and others numerous times throughout the game
fucking kek, this doesn't even need a rebuttal
>she was bold and courageous enough to stand up to her mother despite knowing what she was capable of doing
This is the only worthwhile thing she does in the entire game aside from rescuing Nebby.
>it's spectacular how far she gets without using Pokémon to fight; that takes a lot skill
That's because she's relying on everyone else you fucking idiot.
>she even has a z powered form which no one else has
Okay fine. You're shitposting. Here's your reply.

>>32865902
>Gladion is better than Silver

Gladion is shit at being a character. He and Silver are both designed to be edgelords. Thing is, Silver is a good edgelord; Gladion just comes off as whiny cuck.

So you went on a video with Lillie theme music and saw positive comments.

What the fuck did you expect lol

>>32865924
And Silver grew from a cruel and selfish kid (with good reason for him being so in the first place) to a reserved but ultimately kind person in the end, while going through a phase of confusion and denial.

Let me guess, you missed most of the stuff they added in HGSS?

Waifufags are the cancer that is killing Pokemon.

>>32865924
Gladion doesn't develop at all. The only things he did were steal Type:Null and ditch his mom. You don't even see it happen in the game, it's all off-screen. He starts as an edgy, chuuni middle schooler who wants to get stronger and stays like that the entire game.

>>32865959
Pokémon has always had waifus since the first gen. It's just that none of them have been as attractive and well-written as Lillie.

>>32866019
That is true.

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If N was a chick, would he get the same praise as Lillie? He was pretty popular with fujoshits if i remember correctly.

Her character growth is shown as being incredibly trivial, amounting to being brave enough to cross a bridge.
In the end it feels like you're character exists just to overcome her hurdles. This harms both Lillie and the player entity as characters.

I'd say Lusamine alone is better executed than her daughter, leaving quite a bit of intrigue behind the exact moment she snapped and when her obsession took control of her life.

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>>32866143
>If N was a chick, would he get the same praise as Lillie
No, because the character was a whiny cunt and needed to use Pokémon to grow as a character while Lillie didn't.

>>32866143
I think people would take N less seriously as a girl... the plan to force everyone to release their Pokemon would come off more as whimsical fantasy and being a shut-in princess would make her seem more harmless than mysterious like male N is.

How did Lillie grow since her introduction exactly? She already learned to defy her mother for the sake of Nebby before you even meet her. Then she just learns that she can select her own wardrobe after she hands out with you. The narrative acts like she decides to stand up to her mother and bring her back to reality, but it's the player who does that, she just watches, showing the exact kind of co-dependance they seemed to be working against with the whole z-form bit.

>>32866174
They'd like her more because it's okay when a girl does it. If Lillie was a guy everyone here would unanimously agree that she was shit.

>>32866281
I really hope Gladion and Lillie have reversed roles in USM so we can put this to the test.

This is a fun thread

>>32865761
She's not the main protagonist, she's obnoxious, and she takes up screen time as an exposition/plot dump instead of allowing the player to learn about plot developments in a more natural way.

She exists to be friend npc, but friend npcs dont have a place in a good pokemon game, only rivials. She does 0 heavy lifting, but maintains story relevancy for no other reason than an unnecisary plot that ultimately detracts from gameplay.

The fact that she's a mixed populsrity character instead of generally liked means you have waifufags defending her, and a large population of standard players disliking her.

>>32865902
>No shit. SM aren't about you, the trainer. They're about being a selfless good Samaritan and helping a girl reach her full potential. If you only want the adventure to be about yourself, then stick to the inferior old games you selfish prick.
The games are SUPPOSED to be about an semi-isolated adventure, in which you explore a fictional world. Lillie is the definition of forced because she breaks this rule for the sake of existing. This whole 'not about you' thing breaks the foundations of what made pokemon goos in the first place. It's 100% about you.

She has the depth of a puddle and an item could have been used as a better way to use Z evo. Legit no joke.

>>32866358
>The fact that she's a mixed populsrity character instead of generally liked means you have waifufags defending her, and a large population of standard players disliking her.
Or it means she wasn't made to appeal to literally everyone, like most if not all characters in anything. People on this board play contrarian for the sake of shitposting anyway so of course she would have mixed results here.

when will /vp/ learn to stop replying to obvious bait

>>32866143
No.

>>32866281
Bell was somehow similar to Lillie at development aspects and she wasn't even memorable here.

>>32866729
*Bianca

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>>32866729
>Bell
Literally who?

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Lillie's the byproduct of GameFreak wanting to have a Main Character with actual personality, backstory, goals and the usual stuff, but they realized ever since they made Customization in Gen 6, every Player Character from Gen 6 Onward would have to be a Blank Slate to prevent 95% of players from going berserk.
So they translated that into a NPC who basically steals the journey and makes it about her, but not enough that you're doing absolutely nothing since the Player Character's still doing all the hard work while she exposition dumps in the background, or exposition dumps in the foreground while you stare absentmindedly with an almost unbreakable :^) face.

>Put a random blonde girl in white clothing and white everything

>SO WHITE SO PURE MUST BE PROTECTED

This is the mindset of the people that want Lillie to be around.

>>32866755
I've noticed that all throughout the damn game. That fucking :^) face! A damn wormhole opened up and everybody else freaked out in-game with different expressions, movements, and reactions towards it opening up and all you see is your character smiling through it all. It's bullshit GameFreak. No more :^)! No moar!

>>32865761
>she's not a Mary Sue and realizes she has flaws, working to improve herself as a future trainer
Except she doesn't.
>she risked her life to save you, Nebby and others numerous times throughout the game
More frequently, she risked YOUR life, or Hau's, when she picked a fight she couldn't finish.
>it's spectacular how far she gets without using Pokémon to fight; that takes a lot skill
Wow, it's amazing what a writer can force to happen in a story, in defiance of all logic, isn't it?

>>32867331
Would it kill them to have, like, 3 expressions and 2 reaction animations?

She wasn't even the best character in SM. Gladion, Hau and even Nanu had better characterization.

>>32867339
Aren't there actually moments where the MC does show a different expression? Or am I remembering it wrong?

>le generic "GAMBARIMASU" girl
>good
She's better at the start as a mysterious shy girl who does nothing

>>32867420
There are some for the battle-model, primarily used in Z-poses and the some of the victory animations (Z-Crystal get and whatnot).
None for the over-world model.

>Lillie
>Best

The entire fucking game is one long cutscene featuring her. I'm replaying Sun right now and there are way too many useless cutscenes in this game, mostly just her talking dumb shit. You do literally everything she asks you to. You risk your own life. You risk your Pokemon. Other people risk their lives. This is all to get her to the point she wants to be. Everything that you do in the game takes a backseat to Lillie's actions and wishes. You conclude her story while she narrates in stupid cutscenes. You solve literally all of her problems because she absolutely refuses to do anything for herself, even though it takes her exactly 30 seconds to go from "oh I can't stand Pokemon battles!" to "I'll watch you and cheer you on!" Her understanding of being proactive is yelling silly crap while making a childish expression at her mother after you hard carry her to that point. And then you still have to solve her little mommy issue. Hell, she takes care of the box legendary for the entire game and then gives you the responsibility of raising it! That's nice but the protagonist has no connection whatsoever to the Pokemon, except of course via Lillie.

That she manages to traverse endgame dungeons on her own without a Pokemon is fucking nonsense when every single gen has been anal about not going into the tall grass without a Pokemon.

I liked SM when I played through it for the first time, by the way. The problems become obvious afterwards, or if try to replay the game.

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>>32866151
>Lillie didn't need to use Pokemon to grow as a character
So explain how her having the strength to let Nebby go, and how she goes all the way to Kanto to become a trainer at the end despite hating battles at first means that she didn't need Pokemon to help her grow as a character?

Look how many contrarians' years for the sake of being contrarians.

/vp/ is surely the best circus

Lillie is just generic anime damsel in distress #1347194591, and she has no impact on the game whatsoever, she just stops you dead in your tracks for some pointless cutscene everytime you get to a new city. The reason why people feel strongly about characters like Blue or Silver or Barry is because they interact with you, the player, by challenging you (often without any warning, when your team is already injured). Lillie, instead, interacts with your shitfaced avatar through sunday morning cartoon dialogue, while a non-braindead player is just trying to play the damn game.
The same reasoning applies to Aether foundation and Lusamine. In gen I, you wanna beat the crap out of team rocket because they're always putting themselves between you and a particular objective of your personal journey (key items, Sabrina's Gym, the master ball). In SM, you have to beat Lusamine because Lillie told you so, and that's it. Even the fucking UBs popping out of wormholes seem to haveno impact on the game world whatsoever.

>>32868346
I love how you can trivialize any complaints anyone have by claiming them to be nothing but contrarian. It saves the effort to actually argue against them, right?

>>32865960
Silver was the fucking same he stole a pokemon and was a edgelord the whole fucking time until you go to kanto.

>>32868591
Sounds like you didn't even play GSC and just listened to a second-hand retelling.

>>32868612
Silver is shit and his name was buttsex

>>32868760
It was ??? you fucking newfag.

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>>32868760
>ad hominen

>>32865761
How youtube got a better comment section than 4chan

>>32868591
If you played the game you'd realize the changes start around the second half of
Johto and continue onward. In HGSS they even expanded on it and his development was considered important enough to be highlighted during a generations episode. Silver is superior to Gladion, get over it.

>>32869141
No silver is shit

>>32865761
>>she risked her life to save you, Nebby and others numerous times throughout the game
I mean, she also put you at risk by insisting on going to Ultra Space to get her crazy mom back and make you fight against her team on steroids.

There wasn't even a stake at that point. Lusamine had fucked off and had no real chance of returning without Nebby.

>>32865937
autism

>>32866469
What a shitty excuse.
>She is a bad character
>"B...but she isn't made to appeal to everyone!"

>>32866469
You know what's ironic about this post? By claiming "she's not made to appeal to everyone", you're pretty much implying either:
>Lillie isn't well-written
or
>Lillie was made to pander to a certain group
Which is hilarious, considering that you seem to want to defend her.

Another thing: plain untrue. When you write a certain character while only trying to appeal to a certain group, that's just self-defeating.
It is true that not every character can be appealing to everyone given how broad people taste are, but "she's not made to appeal to everyone"? Yeah, no writer in their right mind would do that UNLESS they're pandering.

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>>32868418
It's more like

>it is popular = need to be hated

Lillie has the structure of a complete character. Therefore liking it or not remains as subjective, but all of their complaints are literally "muh screentime". They don't care about anything but gameplay, so they don't know about writing because is not its priority. Trying to argue with these people is a totally waste, no matter how much you say to them that they need to see it from a different point of view.

>>32871288
Not him, but at the end GF just made Lillie for those who wanted more story plot on Pokemon, and they ended satisfied by it.

>>32871650
People have voiced their complaints about Lillie throughout this entire thread. You haven't addressed the majority of them and instead try and shuffle them all into one group so you can dismiss them entirely.

>>32872510
Because all the complaints are the same and that deserves to be categorized into a single group?

>>32872721
Maybe you should learn to read.

>>32871694
And it's scary, that someone actually finds it good or satisfying.

>>32871650
If I want good dialogues and complex, well rounded characters, I read a goddamn novel. Why would I want to play a GAME to read badly written script? Games can have story, but the more the story is detached from the gameplay, the more it will be despised by the players. If lillie had something to do with the GAME and not just interrupt you for your daily does of text dump, she would be much more appreciated. People play pokemon because of its gameplay, not for the fucking characters.

Catching pokemon=gameplay=fun=good
Exploring routes and cities=gameplay=fun=good
battling other trainers=gameplay=fun=good
Training, breeding, customizing your party=gameplay=fun=good

Going from point A to point B following a straight line=not gameplay=not fun=bad.
Button-mashing your way through useless tutorials and stupid dialogues=not gameplay=not fun=bad.

Even the daycare lady can be considered a more memorable and engaging character than Lillie.

>>32871694
Two things.
1) That doesn't invalidate what I said.
Of course, if you're not trying to, then ignore this.
2) That's somehow even worse.

>>32871694
I wanted more story and I wasn't satisfied with this. All those endless fucking cutscenes that have absolutely no value to the story or the gameplay are annoying. I thought she was a likeable character on paper but poorly executed. I guess GF couldn't figure out how to not sideline everything else, including the protagonist, for her character to work out

A story doesn't mean focus on a single character. The entire plot of SM rides on Lillie's shoulders and sadly the game doesn't have much going on for it besides the plot. Even the protagonist is nothing more than a get-things-done-when-Lille-asks-them-to device. I'm sure this invites comparisons with N in BW but in those games, the plot revolved around you, the protagonist, not around N. I also can't believe they made her go through an entire dungeon and a bunch of other places on her own (she even keeps assuring you it's fine every five minutes of gameplay which is also really annoying) and didn't even give her a single Pokemon of her own for the entire game. I do recall that she says she's using repels at one point but that's not how repels work.

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>>32865761
>she's not a Mary Sue and realizes she has flaws, working to improve herself as a future trainer

Actually your list reads a whole lot like a Mary Sue character.

>>32874950
So the thing you wanted was more self-insert fantasy

>>32876207
Meant to >>32875052

>>32865908
>spews literal lies
>thinks he can "win" by saying "not an argument" when he is called out

>>32875052
Don't forget how most games in the series tell you that it's not safe to go out in the wild without a Pokemon. Obviously this doesn't apply to Lillie, though. Obviously.

>youtube comment section as proof

sage in all fields

>>32866388
>100% about you
Yes, but about a good selfless version of you. One who puts others before him.

>>32876301
Every protagonist does this without having the spotlight shifted from them

>>32865959
No, it's the toxic garbage like you.

>>32866475
This. It's been half a year. When will you people learn to stop feeding the anti-Lillie samefag?

>>32865821
>hundreds
You could probably count them on one hand

>>32876207
>self-insert fantasy
>role-playing game where you control the protagonist, a more or less blank slate except the age

seriously? is this supposed to be an argument?

>>32876332
What an argument.

>>32876364
>>32876372

>"Muh, samfags. Everybody loves Lillie.

>>32865761
>>in the anime, she learned how to bond with Ash's Pikachu in a short period of time and defeat another trainer

Hence her being a mary-sue
GOOD CHARACTERS DEVELOP SLOW!

>>32865819
Fuck off Misty fag, you are not welcome here

If you want to watch character development, don't watch pokemon.
It's almost like it's an anime made for kids.