Lillie is a mary-sue She developed to fast

>>32804465

Game Lillie, yes, it happened literally overnight

Anime Lillie, no, she's developing at a reasonable pace

>>32804465
If you don't know what the fuck a "Mary Sue" is, don't fucking use it.

No, I don't care if you're just using it as a buzzword, sudden development is not a sign of a Mary Sue. That's just bad writing.

>>32804557
>>32804508
FROM TV TROPES:

"The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment."

>Explain how Lillie is not an idealized version of the author


She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name.

>Unusual hair color
>Unusual eye color
>Exotic name

She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting.

>Ash couldn't beat James
>Lillie was able to beat him with NO PAST EXPERIENCE AT ALL


She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

>Name a single flaw with Lillie that she constantly struggles with.

>>32804604
Lillie fits none of those criteria.
>common as fuck name
>normal hair and eye color
>the people who write these things are middle aged Japanese men, not little white girls
>she's constantly a nervous wreck and getting other people to help her out; pretty glaring flaw, and people like Hau tease her about it in the games

So how's she a Mary Sue?

>>32804604
>Name a single flaw with Lillie that she constantly struggles with.
...
...
...
lillie is a fucking mary sue.

>>32804604
>>Ash couldn't beat James
>>Lillie was able to beat him with NO PAST EXPERIENCE AT ALL
Didn't Ash use CRO in his battle while Lillie used Ash's Pikachu, who has tons of battle experience?

>>32804604
So? If you're implying I claim something like "Lillie is not Mary Sue", then don't. Just that unreasonably quick development is not the sign of one.

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Game Lillie isn't a Mary Sue. She does jack shit except push the plot along while being waifubait because GameFreak can't make the Player into anything other than a Blank Slate without the entire goddamn community throwing a shitfit.
Even if the story revolves around Lillie, the protagonist is still a Mary/Gary because THEY'RE the ones who make it happen.

>>32804657
>>32804657
>using the pokemon as an excuse
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT PIKACHU.

And besides, it's shown that it took 3 episodes for pikachu to bond with Ash.

Yet SOMEHOW, despite the fact that Lillie has an unexplained fear of pokemon, she was able to bond with pikachu in just ONE EPISODE!

>>32804695
Different circumstances. Pikachu is already friendly when it bonds with Lillie, making the progress easier.
Not only that, nowhere was it ever shown that Pikachu dislike anyone not named Ash.

>>32804642
>she's constantly a nervous wreck and getting other people to help her out
Actually, as far as flaws go, this is the lowest form of it.
It IS a flaw, yes. But more often than not, it's played for the sake of making the reader/viewer feel a sense of endearment to the character.

>>32804642
>>32804657
Again, from tv tropes:

"The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions,

even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting;
>cough sopheles and Kiawe
if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal."

I think I need to point out that the definition of "Mary Sue" has evolved over the edges.
No, it still doesn't mean what OP thinks it means, but being a self-insert does not necessarily make a character a Mary Sue. The inverse is also true.

>>32804773
>edges
Fuck it, I meant "ages".

Regardless of whether she is a mary sue or not, i hope we won't see much of her in USUM.

Just let me hope plz ;_;

>>32804508
I'm sure OP is only talking about the game Lillie and not the anime ver.

>>32804834
I hope Lusamine kills her 2bh. At least it'll be good for shock value if only for people to go HOLY SHIT A POKEMON GAME DID THAT

>>32804465
no she used Z-Power you fucking moron

>>32804745
>The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions
yep, that's game and anime lillie in a nutshell.

>>32804860
well, I'm glad SOMEONE is thinking!

>>32804848
I'm talking about both.

>>32804856
Not kill her; it's too big of a taboo in the entertainment industry. But idk cryofreeze her or something. And gives the lines she had to Hau and Gladion, they actually are better characters.

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>>32804939
It's been done several times before.

Plus killing a character that's beginning to develop for the better has way more emotional torque.

I know the comedy relief memes are in full effect for the anime right now, but I doubt they'll just skip the more serious aspects like Lusamine and the UB's entirely.

My guess is that they're building Lilie's character so they can break her down again for when Lusamine and the darker aspects of her life resurface

>>32804883
What's the problem with her anime version?
I don't see people having problem with her.

>>32805197
she's a mary-sue

>>32804604
she has plenty of flaws...

How IS she an idealized version of the writer? Do you know the writer?

Also...speedy development, while a shitty plot use is not a Mary Sue

>exotic
pasty white

>Unusual hair color
blonde

>Unusual eye color
green

wow I can't even manage to handle the exoticness!

>>32805230
Do elaborate. Claiming as much doesn't do anyone justice.

>>32805261
see
>>32804745
>>32804604

>>32805239
They're exotic for Japanese standards

>>32805197
The general impression I guess is that people just find her kind of boring. She barely does anything, even in her focus episodes, and they all end with her instinctively touching a Pokemon and thus magically becoming able to touch that one Pokemon, which is getting really old.

>>32805366
and exceptionally plain for a massive portion of its expected viewership

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>>32804604
>She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting.
I don't watch the garbage anime (because why would you?), but I remember in-game her being very useless, so much so that it was annoying.

>>32805491
In the anime, she is the only character who ISN'T useless, making her mary-sueness more apparent.

I know the writers didn't WANT THIS, but still

>>32805239
name a realistic flaw,

and don't give me the unexplained fear of pokemon

>>32805592
ok...so moving the goal posts before I even kick

enjoy your fake outrage over a non issue

>>32805586
That's just patently false. All the characters contributed on various occasions.

>>32805770
>No answer

>>32805821
EXPLAIN!

>>32805450

>Everyone who watches pokémon is a slav.

>>32804679
>Lillie is the Leader of Team Lillie
>MC is the Admin of Team Lillie
>Hau and Gladion are Team Lillie grunts

It all makes sense now.

>>32805975
Does "slav" mean "braindead"?

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>>32804604
>tv tropes

>>32804679
>the protagonist is still a Mary/Gary
>some 11 year old kid who just moved from Kanto
>the "chosen one" by Tapu Koko
>beats the son of a Kahuna all the time
>beats people with several years of experience and becomes the first champion of Alola
>gets the girl with AND her legendary best friend
Yeah, looking back this one makes much more sense, though I guess people are more lenient because they like to self-insert or something. I don't like Lillie, but she is far from a "Mary Sue". She's incompetent for most of the game and talks about how she wishes she was more like the player character. The term gets thrown around so much that I think people just use it for whatever character they hate.

>>32804465
and op is a faggot, what is new?

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>>32804604
>Explain how Lillie is not an idealized version of the author
Gee I don't know

>>32806115
All Pokemon PCs are like that. They're just player avatars with no personality or non-player controlled actions. They win everything all the time because the game is like that. It's like playing a racing game and calling your character a Mary Sue because he wins all the races.

>>32805363
Oh those. Sure, I'll give it a look.

>>32804604
This one seems too hung up on the textbook definition, but whatever.

>Explain how Lillie is not an idealized version of the author
This should be the last point, really. Otherwise, you're basing your thoughts on the statement "Lillie is a Mary Sue", not the other way around.

Unusual hair color/Unusual eye color/Exotic name
I'm sorry, what? Fictional Japanese go as far as having purple hair with eyes that change color. Lillie's blonde hair and green eyes are bland in comparison.
Also, "Lillie" is a common name, what're you talking about?

>Lillie was able to beat him with NO PAST EXPERIENCE AT ALL
THIS is the only one I'm willing to concede.

>Name a single flaw with Lillie that she constantly struggles with
Whether you like it or not, the "being afraid of Pokémon" is one.
HOWEVER, as far as I'm concerned, it's just to bring up her cuteness factor, and nothing else. Unless they pulled a tragic (kid-friendly level at least) backstory, that flaw don't mean much as far as characteristics go.

>>32804745
>Sophocles, Kiawe
Really? I kinda tuned out of the anime for a while, so would you kindly elaborate? Specifically, how different those two treat Lillie compared to other characters.

>>32804465
>She developed to fast
Fuck I'd say so, just look at the body...

>>32804465
>Explain how Lillie is not an idealized version of the author
Shes not,none of the pokegirls are

>Blond hair
>Green eyes
>Lillie
>Exotic
There is nothing exotic about those traits you mong

>Lillie was able to beat him with NO PAST EXPERIENCE AT ALL
Didn't she have Pikachu?Pikachu has beaten legendarys before even if he never won a league


>Name a single flaw with Lillie that she constantly struggles with
She did have he fear of Pokemon and she might still have it for awhile along with her suppressed memories she hasn't faced yet.

>>32804604
This describes Serena far better than it describes Lillie.

>>32804604
>from tv tropes
Stopped reading there.

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>>32804604
>>Lillie was able to beat him with NO PAST EXPERIENCE AT ALL
Do you understand the power she was wielding?

>>32806489
I was about to post the same thing.

>>32806521
ash was reset. deal with it

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>>32806007
I hope you're not serious.

>>32805366
Literally all the female companions are exotic for Japanese standards. Even May, the only one that has a normal Japanese hair and skin colors, has blue eyes.

>>32806489
THIS!There was contest where she got to attract Rhyhorns who all loved her more then anything including Sweet Scent move

>>32804465
Lillie take's really loud smelly shit's

>>32804465
>mary-sue
Actually she's on the opposite end of the spectrum where she's so thoroughly worthless in every way.

>>32805370
But that's still much better than the game version.

>>32804657
Lillie took down Team Rocket with a Vulpix that just hatched, in a season where they'd generally been hard to deal with.

>>32809081
>took down
It was literally just "use Powder Snow once and freeze them all". There was zero tactic or anything, she literally just ordered the one and only move her Pokemon knew.

>>32804745
I mentioned this shit back when the game was first released and got called a Serenafag, what they hell happened? Did the honeymoon period finally wear off?

>>32804508
>>32804465

probably becasue the games are kinda meant to be short. But actually I found this one as my longest Pokemon game, I think 24 hours until I hit the league?

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>>32806603
James was Rowlet's first battle.

>>32809355
It's only "long" because nearly 2/3 of the game is made of cutscenes.

>>32806115
>The term gets thrown around so much that I think people just use it for whatever character they hate.
Bingo. This is why the term 'Mary Sue' is generally disregarded in criticism, people use it to mask their personal dislike of a character as an objective fact. This thread is a prime example, every criticism against Lillie is either a very common occurence in fiction or has nothing to do with her character at all (game-wise.)

Lillie is annoying, mostly because she interrupts the flow of the gameplay very often. This is not, however, evidence of a bad character as much as it is of poor story layout. If Lillie was a character in a traditional story format, she would actually be perfectly fine.

>She grows too fast!
So does most every other character, including Player, Hau and Gladeon. If anything, out of the story characters, Lillie had the smoothest transition from a meek, sheltered girl with no confidence to an assured, active girl willing to stand up to her fears and insecurities that spanned the entire length of the main game. If it was fast, then it's only because the game itself is fast.

>She looks too exotic!
Literally every natural and some unnatural hair and skin colors are in this game. There are a ton of blonde and pasty NPCs littered everywhere. Ace trainers and Swimmers match her in these areas. This is literally nitpicking.

>Lillie is an idealized version of the author
TIL Lillie is an ideal ego for dozens of Japanese designers of various age and gender, who'da thought?

Honestly, things like special looks, names and abilities are not criterias of Mary Sues. Mary Sues only come about when the internal logic and universal laws of a story are frequently broken by a plot device masquerading as a character in a way that does not benefit the genre, themes, purpose or goal of the story. Nothing Lillie did in-game reflected any of these faults. Lillie is not a Mary Sue.

>>32809558
you mean all the 1-2 min cutscenes were the reason why I needed like 4 hours more than usual, eventhough I mostly rush through these games.

>>32804604
>unusual hair color
>in a series where characters have green blue and pink hair
>exotic name
>eye color
Kill. Your. Self. Your hate for a fictional character is unhealthy and it's clear you have mental issues, same for anyone else in this thread shitting on her.

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>>32804604
>FROM TV TROPES:

>>32805239
>im-fucking-plying that lady straight outta 1800's isn't exotic in fucking hawaii

your Eurocentrism shows up anon

>>32811739
>Im-fucking-plying fictional Hawaii is the same as real life Hawaii
Your grip in reality is loosening, dear. Better see a psychiatrist for help.

Also, what about her family?

>>32811800
>a fictional region that alludes to real region can't have similarities with it's source material
I bet'cha didn't expect taxis in Kalos too.

>>32811826
Never said that. But when the locals include a green-haired Mallow and the blue-haired Lana, a lady straight outta 1800 is probably the least exotic thing there.

>>32811856
>green-haired Mallow
dyed native

>and the blue-haired Lana
nips sometimes show kind of dark hair as blue, maybe somebody though Lana's hair is good way to show hair bleaking under harsh Hawaiian sunlight

Mean while there's little girl in yuuge colonial mansion that looks like and behaves like she recently came from Queen's Victoria coronation.

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>>32804465
>>32804604
Man, I don't know the reason, but compared to other boards /vp/ has way more cases of misunderstanding the "mary sue" thing as "being strong/talented" or "lacking relatable flaws". Have been noticing this for years and I really wonder why that is.
Anyway, the term should have never been used outside of pure fanfiction: if it does it loses all meaning and ends up as an "I don't like this character" literal buzzword.

>>32811902
>dyed native
Proof or you are grasping at straws.

>maybe somebody though Lana's hair is good way to show hair bleaking under harsh Hawaiian sunlight
Yeah, because Hau also has blue hair.

>>32811955
Are dyes improbable?

Africans dyed their hair for lulz
Europeans had wigs
Chinese malformed their feet
Egyptians wore chunks of incensed wax on their heads.

And one tribal girl having tradition of dying hair is too much?

A dyed native is still less exotic than 'normal' colonial

>>32811973
>Are dyes improbable?
No, but there is no reason at all that Mallow would dye her hair.

Guzma? Yes, he's a delinquent.
Plumeria? Also the same.
Hell, I'll accept that Kiawe dyed his because he still has brown hair behind those red patches.
Mallow? Why would she even? Tradition? Then where was this ever mentioned?

Also, Kahili has sky blue hair and Ilima has shocking pink. Guess those two dyed their hair too, huh?
Oh, and Acerola too with her purple hair.

>>32812046
>Mallow? Why would she even?
Tumblrites neither have any need for dyes, but here they are. Or anyone who needs to be a bit outstanding.

Illima is just trying to be more Kalosian than Kalosians, and Kahili has some kind of platinum blonde bordering on steel gray, not sky blue.
Acerola? She dabbles with Ghastlies and Gengars all day every day. And what color are Ghastlies and Gengars?

>Tradition? Then where was this ever mentioned?
It doesn't have to be mentioned to be least wacky explanation to why she has green hair, besides 'lol nips'. Even though there's her papa restaurant, or her herbal skills, which may be indication of such traditions

>>32812134
>Tumblrites
Irrelevant. We're talking fictional characters here, not trash.

>Illima is just trying to be more Kalosian than Kalosians
So dye then? Eh, this one I can at least accept, mainly because culture shock is one hell of a thing.

>Kahili
Your point being?
No really, other than correcting what her hair color is, what's your point?

>Acerola
This one, I'll accept "lol nips". I mean, disregarding the fact that not every Ghost-type trainers have purple hair that is. *coughPhoebecough* It's just one of those that's stupid enough to work.

>It doesn't have to be mentioned to be least wacky explanation to why she has green hair, besides 'lol nips'
Then I'll also say she has natural green hair because "lol nips". So there.

>Even though there's her papa restaurant, or her herbal skills, which may be indication of such traditions
An indicative of nothing. Not even a subtle-like-a-brick hint like "I accidentally change a person's hair color with my cooking".

Saying "Mary Sue" should trigger a permanent auto ban.
I don't even watch this anime but every time someone on 4chan uses the term it's wrong.

>>32812345

>Irrelevant. We're talking fictional characters here, not trash.
>implying tumblrites isn't elaborate /pol/ falseflag
at least that would be more comforting than reality, wouldn't it?

>Your point being?
>No really, other than correcting what her hair color is, what's your point?
That people can have such hair due to inherited pigmentation schemes or your genes going "fuck you we're going grey before high school"

>This one, I'll accept "lol nips". I mean, disregarding the fact that not every Ghost-type trainers have purple hair that is. *coughPhoebecough* It's just one of those that's stupid enough to work.
Ball of purple poison steaming purple fumes isn't that much of unexpected. TNT and picric acid manufacturers went canary yellow thanks to NOx fumes. Also Hex Maniacs usually are purple haired.

>An indicative of nothing. Not even a subtle-like-a-brick hint like "I accidentally change a person's hair color with my cooking".
Herbalists aka shamans were very revered, because of their borderline 'mistic' powers. But high status position needs high status look, and a herbalist knowledgeable around plants could find something suitable. And Mallow's lore, both from pokeani and games heavily implies sizeable herbalist knowledge.

>Then I'll also say she has natural green hair because "lol nips". So there.
Well, I can see why you might think like this, but in all my sincere honesty, for Nips Europeans will always be more exotic than those pesky islanders with whom they had to quarrel with every time they wanted to switch from Nipland to Nippire

>>32809200
Lunadude?

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>>32806489
>>32806578
>>32807230

So your saying a character who took a year to develop is a mary-sue

>>32804508
>>Anime Lillie, no, she's developing at a reasonable pace

Not seeing much development, her boobs are still small

>>32807230

Check your privilege. Just because she is a Rhyornian doesnt mean that she deserves your slander and abuse you menanists are all the same

>>32804604
Go back.

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>>32804604
>FROM TV TROPES

>>32813035
>>32811221
>>32806505
>>32806060
tv tropes is a very reliable resource.

and no, it's not a website anyone can edit

>>32804604
>>32813065
Nice spacing. Where did you learn it?

>>32813065
>Reliable source

Sure, and that's the reason why, according to it, MLP is scarier The Thing.

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>>32813065

>>32813065
The only way you could be this dense is if you actually were from reddit. So please, go back there, and stay there.

>>32813098
citation needed