What is your reaction when you see this? Are they really that bad?

Grass isn't really shit except for some combinations.
Ice is only shit defensively.
Rock is just fucking retarded.

Is rock no longer one of the best offensive types?

>tfw these are all some of my least favorite types

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>>32798274
Without Grass pic would be ridiculous

>>32798292
switch ice and rock and the statements are true

>>32798299
>implying ice is bad offensively

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>>32798274
>post yfw Grass/Bug/Ice type with Dry Skin

Stuff like Tyranitar, Mega-Aerodactyl, and Mega-Diance are good examples of how to make a good rock type.

Shit like Golem and night dog are absolutely retarded in the direction they went

>>32798305
>implying ice's only use isn't to take out dragons and lando-t
Besides like three ice types it's an utterly shit typing to have and none of them are worth using when non stab hp ice still ohkos

>>32798295
Why do you not like grass?

>>32798305
>implying rock is bad offensively.
Only resisted by ground, fighting and steel.

>>32798366
The type as a concept just bores me more for some reason. I do like some grass mons, though they're all dual-typed and it's the other half of the typing I tend to be more interested in. That's just my personal taste though and I can see why grass can be appealing to other people. I'm kind of getting tired of all the grass waifumons too

>>32798274

>grass and rock bad

You don't know how bad i want a based Grass/Rock starter.

>>32798274
>Grass
Looking at the type chart matchups it certainly doesn't look good. But if you take a closer look you'll be surprised to see some key resistances such as water, electric, and ground. And is one of the only two types to hit water SE. Not to mention rock covers for 4 of it's weaknesses. It's ultility is also great, leech seed and sleep powder is great. Grass surprisingly has a lot of presence in the OU meta game. It's far from the best competitive type, but most certainly not the worst if you look closely. Still wish it resisted fairy.

>Rock
No doubt huge offensive presence in the meta game. You see SR everywhere. Like grass, rock also has five weaknesses, but unlike grass they are all extremely common like fighting and ground. But I guess people feel less empathy for rocks because of SR

>>32798378
>_____ missed

>>32798331
>must have a bst of 600 or above to be a good rock type
really makes you think

>>32798274
>Ice
I feel bad for ice fans. Literally the most cucked type. It's a proven fact that every type is worse when dual typed with ice. Worst of all, there's absolutely no reason to use ice type Pokémon when water basically does the same thing better and fairy is the better dragon killer type competitively.

Not sure how I would buff it, but giving it a couple of resists like fairy or normal would be a good start.

>>32798331
to be fair, Golem was used on nearly half of OU teams in its introductary generation.

>>32798274

>Water is now weak to Poison
>Ice now resists Flying, Grass, Water Ground and itself
>Grass now immune to Fairy, gains 1/16 HP automatically and sun/rain and 1/8 in intense sun/heavy rain, and Leaf Guard is now a constant status immunity outside of sun while becoming Solid Rock/Filter in the sun
>Rock resists Water and all Rock Pokémon that have dex entries talking about how they don't like water get the ability "Hydrophobia" where they lose all of their weaknesses in exchange for a 4x Water weakness
>Bug now either neutral or SE to Fairy and no longer resisted by Fire or Fighting

Have I fixed everything yet?

>>32798546
water still has scald and ice beam

to be honest. fuck water type. nerf it into the ground

>>32798434
on the plus side, rock moves have high bp

>>32798340
>3 ice types
just asking,
which ice are those?
how many ghosts are worth using?

>>32798557
Is it even possible to make Water types unlearn Ice Beam?

>>32798546
Also add grass now hits flying neutrally.

People tend to forget that grass has just as many resisted hits as bug.

>>32798570
Make it so that when water types use blizzard or ice beam, it'll only do 50%.

>>32798570
>remove ice beam from tm lists
>remove cross gen comparability

>>32798566
Mamoswine, weavile, and the kyurem fusions. Niches like skill link shell smash cloyster and snow warning aurora veil ninetales exist but they're completely useless if taunted.

>>32798570
nerf ice beam,
create new ice move and give it only to ice pokemons (or just boost existing one)

>>32798626
not everthing carries taunt and you haven't answered me about ghosts.

>>32798626
I mean to be fair for ninetales you need 110 or more base speed to taunt it and it gives perfect accuracy blizzards to fall back on. Not saying taunt doesn't wreck it since... you know it invalidates it's main purpose, but it at least has some resistance to getting shut down.

>>32798640
>>32798648
Even then, anything that outspeeds cloyster can kill it easily with a super effective special move, and steel types resist both of ninetales' stabs while dealing 4x SE damage.

>you haven't answered me about ghosts
I only knew what ice types were viable because there's so few of them, if you want to know just check the viability rankings yourself.

>>32798605
Good thinking. That way we won't be able to compare them to how they used to be.

>>32798274
Don't even think about putting grass with those 2 shit types. Bug should be in that picture instead.

>>32798684
> super effective special move
rock and fighting hardly got any in that department, so it only leaves grass and psychic
>steel is good against ice and fairies
steel is 4x on ninetales. why not drop weavile since mech punch breaks it if you are already there?

>ghosts
my point is, ice type is rare so there aren't many good pokemons that carry it, same with ghost. ghost is far from being a bad type, but like with ice, you won't find that many ghosts around.

>contains some of the bulkiest fagmons with faggy moves imaginable
>best offensive type out there 100%
>second only to rock in best offensive type but has dick for defense

>>32798726
>grass and psychic
*grass and electric

derp

>>32798566
Interesting that you mention that.

The only Ghost-types seeing any use are Gengar and Sableye. In theory the type should be better than it is, especially now. Normal-types are uncommon and Dark-types aren't as great as they would've been pre-fairy. Those are the only types that can resist Ghost but it's not like putting a Dark-type on your team to absorb Ghost-type damage is at the front of your mind when teambuilding.

Meanwhile, throughout gens 4, and 5 you absolutely needed a Steel-type or else pokemon like Salamence and Hydregon would push your shit in, and even if you did have a Steel-type they would just do so anyway.

Ghost would definitely be a bigger deal if any of the following were true:
>Rotom's alt-formes were still Ghost-type, like in Gen 4
>90% of the Ghost-types that exist weren't redundant now that M-Sableye and Gengar exist
>Defensive ghost-types had better recovery than Pain Split
>The only physical Ghost-type that isn't trash officially does not exist
>The type's SE coverage differed more from Dark

With that latter point, Ghost is resisted by fewer things but Dark-type attacks have better effects and are more varied: Knock Off and Sucker Punch chief among them

>>32798726
>rock and fighting hardly got any in that department, so it only leaves grass and electric*
Most electric types counter cloyster very easily with its low hp and spdef, plus they are usually much faster.

>steel is 4x on ninetales. why not drop weavile since mach punch breaks it if you are already there?
You're missing the point. Weavile can switch out with little loss on the team because it can always come back in later. But unlike weavile, ninetales is a support mon who's meant to set up aurora veil as early as possible, so being forced to switch out by a bullet punch defeats its purpose completely.


>>32798856
You forgot mimikyu and marowak

>>32798274
no they aren't, /vp/ is trash, thats all.

>>32798962
>faster
what, after shell smash? because the turn you switch in your electriic may be the turn that will cost your game. im not saying its without counters, but it isn't as weak as you paint it out to be.

>ninetales
>you sent out ninetales on your first turn and you suspect enemy has bullet punch
switch out. at least you got hail out, and worst case scenerio, it still breaks sash.
>you ware forced to switch tales in due to roar/dragon tail/etc and you suspect enemy will kill you before setting up anything
ditto.
>you yourself switched ninetales into something you know will kil it next move
if you did something like that you are already losing.

>>32798274
Funny enough, Grass/Rock is a legit very good combo

>>32798856
Don't forget that ghosts lack a good physical stab move.

>>32798310
>not bug/steel/ice type for forest's curse

>>32799295
>not Bug/Steel/Ice-type being attacked with Mimicked V-Create in the Sun with Flash Fire active and a Solar Power partner

>>32799295
And Ice Forest's Curse would be by far the most useful version of that attack. But that's just how bad Ice is as a type.

>>32798566
>rock moves have high bp
Not really. Most things have a choice of Rock Slide or Stone Edge, with the former sitting at a relatively low 75 BP and the latter having a more respectable but not outstanding 100 BP. Most other types have a 110 or 120 BP option with wide distribution, and a number of them have a 90+ BP move with 100% accuracy as well. The only Rock-type moves with truly high BP are Rock Wrecker, which has shit distribution and an even shittier downside that makes it nigh unusable, and Head Smash, which has poor distribution, a dangerous but not unmanageable downside, AND shaky accuracy to boot.
If you want to talk about a type with high BP moves, look at fucking Fighting.

>>32799029
>what, after shell smash?
Yes.
Cloyster's speed after shell smash is only 105. Even with a speed boosting nature it's still not enough to outspeed koko, m-manectric, etc.

>switch out. at least you got hail out, and worst case scenario, it still breaks sash.
Again, being forced out completely defeats its purpose as a support pokemon meant to set up on the first turn, and it’s why hardly anyone wastes a slot on their team for one. When ninetales' sole purpose to set up aurora veil, being rendered unable to do so by switching out or getting ko'ed makes it entirely pointless to have on a team. Having focus sash means that ninetales doesn’t have to switch out or worry about priority (except prankster taunt), allowing it to set up, but the reward is so little that it’s not even worth it. Light clay extends the duration slightly from 5 to eight turns, but then ninetales has the risks mentioned above. And anyways, aurora veil is useless outside of doubles where matches have less turns, so don’t even bother defending shitters who use it in OU singles.

>>32799377
>Cloyster's speed after shell smash is only 105
So you don't know how Shell Smash works and you don't know how base stats work either.
Not in the mood to explain shit you can easily google, but the point is you're wrong and embarrassingly so.

>>32799344
Dark, Psychic, Fairy, Ghost, Ground, Bug, Steel don't have anything that high. Steel has Heavy Slam and Gyro ball but those vary. Bug has Megahorn but its distribution is ass.

Of the remaining types, half those moves get ignored outright. What regularly caries Thunder outside of Kyogre? Or Blizzard? The only pokemon that still bothers with Hydro Pump iirc is Rotom-W, which is only because it doesn't get Scald

The only remaining types with moves that get that high power that aren't shit are:
>Normal
Double Edge
>Fighting
Superpower/HJK/CC/Focus Miss
>Flying
Brave Bird/Hurricane
>Poison
Gunk Shot
>Fire
Fire Blast/Flare Blitze
>Grass
Power Whip/Leaf Storm

>>32799424
Don't worry I definitely know, I just did the math wrong. So then it would be 140, which still doesn't outspeed a timid tapu koko. Nice to know that you only embarrassed yourself since you never actually bothered to check their stats.

>>32799434
You missed Dragon, which gets Draco Meteor and Outrage.
And I specifically said "option", instead of stating that they'd actually use the move. If there were a Rock type move with 90 BP and 95 or 100 accuracy with good distribution, you can bet your ass that that's the option that most Rock-types would use.
The point is, Rock moves don't generally get high enough BP to offset their trash accuracy.
>>32799511
Fine, I'll do this the hard way. Max Speed Naive Cloyster has an ACTUAL Speed stat of 262. Max Speed Timid Tapu Koko has an ACTUAL Speed stat of 394. After a Shell Smash, Cloyster's ACTUAL Speed stat is doubled, to a final value of 524. Which makes it faster than any unboosted Tapu Koko.

They have no fucking clue what to do with Ice.

Make it 2x against Water instead of 1/2 (seriously what the fuck is their logic here), give it resistance to water and dragon and remove it's fighting weakness. Fucking fixed.

>>32799553
Oh for fuck's sake. For the record, most people don't run +spe natures because they wouldn't expect to outspeed a koko, nor would they even try to. So if you can assume that someone will run a +spe natured shell smash cloyster, it can also be assumed that it is equally as likely that someone will use a choice scarf tapu koko, which, by the way, does outspeed cloyster. But if you want to risk your cloyster wondering what item the opponent has then go ahead.

>>32799596
Making Water weak to Ice will just make Water Pokemon more versitle now that they can take out other Water Pokemon. The fact is that Water, which was already a good type, get's boosted the fuck out of by having access to Ice type moves. They either need to revoke this so that Grass Pokemon will have an actual niche, or give all types something to fuck over their direct counter types, like Earth Power Grass Pokemon or Fighting types all getting Bullet and Sucker Punch.

>>32799646
Neutral nature Cloyster hits 478 speed after a Smash.
Still faster than Koko by a lot. The only things you should be expecting to outpace a +2 Cloyster are speedy scarfers and Deoxys-S.
And Naive is the most used nature for Shell Smash Cloyster on Showdown!, according to the damage calculator.

>>32799677
>Neutral nature Cloyster hits 478 speed after a Smash
>after a Smash
>implying that it could set up

>>32798274
Grass is actually a pretty good type. It does have 5 weaknesses, but it also has 4 useful resistances as well as an immunity to many grass status moves. When I see a grass type tho, I wish most of them had a movepool beyond STAB moves and Return.
Rock is great offensively, but pretty terrible defensively cause Normal ain't OP anymore. Usually think awesome cause Rhydon is the best designed pokemon of all time.
Ice makes me sad cause Ice is a good typing, but Gamefreak continuously keeps making ice pokemon in the opposite direction of what they would be good at.

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>>32799733
The point was that a boosted Cloyster is faster than Tapu Koko. That's what I was responding to >>32799377 for. Whether or not it can ever get that boost safely would be predicated on Cloyster's ability to force a switch, which in OU is pretty low because despite all of this, Cloyster still sucks.

>>32798436
That applies to most types anon. Also they have a combination of a great movepool, and a great abilities as well, don't forget that.

>>32798304
Left has the worst duo type combos while right each duo combo for it is a great type defensively.

offensively right still hits pretty fine offensively as well

>Grass
Fairy resistance.
>Rock
Improve Stone Edge's accuracy to 90%.
>Ice
Flying resistance.
There, fixed everything that's wrong with those types.

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>>32798471
>when your type is so bad that being paired with Steel makes it arguably worse

>>32800018
>90%.

Try 100%, screw luck-based mechanics.

>>32800707
Then give it a drawback like Superpower or Close Combat.

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>>32798546
>Ice now resists itself

I-it doesn't already??!!

>>32800723
How about you give it a drawback like Earthquake?

>>32798471
How to fix Ice :

>Add resistance to Bug, Grass, Water and Dragon
>Make it offensively Neutral to Water
>Make it supereffective against Bug
>Give Auroral Veil to more Ice types
>Actually make more interesting mixed Icemons like Mamoswine.
>Add ability Frostbite : opposing Pokemon's Speed lowers on switch-in.
>Add move with a good chance to inflict freeze status (fucking Ice burn has a 30% chance to burn) or change Frost Breath

>>32800767
Fuck I always thought its BP was 120.

>>32800767
Earthquake's drawback is that 30% of the pokemon are immune to it.

>>32798274
Grass isn't nearly as bad as the two others.

>>32798274
Funny enough, Grass/Rock is a great defensive combo. Ice with anything ends up mostly pretty bad.

Grass is meh.
All Ice needs is a resistance to Flying and Freeze Dry boosted to 80 or 90bp. This allows them to check both Water and Flying types.

>tfw I'm a Grass and Ice type fan

>>32798471
Is there any type that gets better when paired with Flying?

>>32803385
Steel, arguably Water, arguably Rock, arguably Electric, Ground, possibly Dark, possibly Fairy.
It helps that Flying is a fucking fantastic type offensively and that fuck all gets Flying moves as coverage.

>>32800791
freeze is a shitty game mechanic and should be changed to a spA equivalent of burn

>>32803608
whats the point of that? it cant even attack when frozen

>>32803174
>boost Freezedry to 90BP and make all Ice types learn by level up
>Ice Beam nerfed to 75 BP, making it literally just Special Ice Punch

>>32798274
grass type is pretty decent this gen. they have more pokemon in OU than both ice and rock combined

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>>32804408
>tfw this is actually true

>>32799823
Right is objectively perfect....Fairy is the BEST type...and Water is second best

>>32798557
awww...tell me where the bad water type touched you

>>32803429
I mean defensively

I'd love more Grass/Rock types since they cover each other's offenses and defenses nicely.

>>32804878
I know.

>>32798274
rock is just designed badly, making the pokemon physically defensively strong when they're weak to the most common physical attacks and weak to special attacks in general while being slow as fuck, you're by design making pokemon that get fucked by everything. ice doesnt get obviouis resists it should have and grass atm isn'T even that bad. good moves and anti meta resitances and strengths. rists really common stuff and hitswater types as well as the ground pokemon that normally cover them

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> This thing is your last pokemon
> effected by Forrest's Curse

How fucked are you?

>>32800899
if you'll let me play the devil's advocate, most of those with earthquake have a way to chuck a rock that'll reck 99% (skarmory) right outta the sky.

>>32798274

rock got fucked over by the existence of ground and steel

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>>32798274
>grass & rock
>bad

Have you seen this fucker before?

>>32798557

ground is too good, nerf it into the bug or something.

>>32808294
i was just thinking the same thing myself. i love cradily and lileep <3

>>32808294
>Have you seen this fucker before?
Literally who? I don't play NU.

>>32806488
You forgot water and fighting

>>32808294
I have. I have even tried to use it. Multiple times. In multiple generations.

It's shit

>>32798557
Remove Ice Beam as a TM or remove it from every single water type that isn't based off a cold water fish. Then we drop Scald to 10% proc rate.

Or we give Grass types a wider movepool because why the hell do so many of them have such terrible movepools.

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>>32808294
>always thought it lacked reliable recovery
>discover it had access to recover since its introduction
>mfw it's actually pretty good
>>32808652
You know, you should try some other than the top 6 OU mons, it won't hurt.
>>32808897
Nigga is practically one of the stone pillars of my monotype grass team, you're just using him wrong.

>Fire types can beat Water types with Solar Beam + Power Herb / Grassium Z
>Water types can beat Grass types with Ice Beam
>Grass types has nothing except Hidden Power Rock

>>32798297
Ah yeah, because Zygarde is weak to grass, and grass resists dragon, right?

Yeah...

>>32808906
>Then we drop Scald to 10% proc rate.
And make it only burn pokémons weak to fire.

They should also make most fire types learn thunderbolt

>>32800766
it does already

>>32809029

Most common Zygarde is a Band set spamming Thousand Arrows

>>32798856
What about giratina and lunala

>>32808946
Not who you're replying to but Cradily has always been consistently underwhelming for me when used on monoGrass. It's outsped by almost every mon in existence, so using it as a stop to Flying and Fire types requires you to sack something, beat it with Cradily and then sack it to the next thing opponent sends out to outspeed and oneshot it. And there are some mons it's supposed to stop like Volcarona that just steamroll it anyway. It's also painful to grind because Lileep is piss weak and has shit movepool until later in the game. I'd actually prefer to use something like Virizion that has to settle for non-STAB Stone Edge, but can actually outspeed shit to potentially sweep the opponent. For reference I used Giga Drain / Ancient Power / Earth Power / Recover set, leaving Stealth Rock to Ferrothorn.
It's probably a lot better on monoRock where its Water immunity + STAB Giga Drain are huge as far as threat control is concerned, but I've only played an injected monoRock in a few random fights, so I can't say much.

>>32808294
Grass Rock type isn't actually that great defensively, you still got four weaknesses while only having two resistances. But the offense of Grass and Rock is extremely valuable. It's the reason why I use Cradily in grass monotypes despite it being NU material.

>>32808625
underrated

>>32811799
Viability in monotype doesn't have much to do with viability in classic. Avalugg is S-ranked on ice despite being a PU shitmon in standard.